Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: stoneleech on August 16, 2008, 12:42:14 pm
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After having recently posted photos of my van, i have received a letter from Ionics stating they own the words reach & wash system as registered trade mark. Is this true? I have searched it with no definite results.
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yes they certainly do shame but true
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what the water logo thing or the words?
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the phrase "reach & Wash.
but not "we can reach and wash your high windows"
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reach then wash or Reach it & wash it - Put that and they cant touch you! ;)
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What have they threatened you with?
Would Reach 'n' Wash be ok....certainly be cheaper to alter the signwriting ;D
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What have they threatened you with?
Would Reach 'n' Wash be ok....certainly be cheaper to alter the signwriting ;D
No you couldn't use that. I did a search of Reach & wash, Reach and wash and reach 'n' wash. The first was the actual trademark and the other two cannot be trademarked due to their likeness to the actual trademark. So if you cant register the other two due to this reason I guess it would be possible for Ionics to take legal action on these grounds, after all in their eyes if you are using a slogan so close to theirs then you must be trying to pass yourself off as them or as a user of their equipment.
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What have they threatened you with?
Would Reach 'n' Wash be ok....certainly be cheaper to alter the signwriting ;D
they have just told me to remove it off my van or send a picture of my system inside my van. I'm thinking of changing to Reach & Clean system, does anyone know if this would be a problem?
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Another company uses that as their branding of their equipment! Not sure though if it's trade marked.
www.reachandclean.co.uk
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Another company uses that as their branding of their equipment! Not sure though if it's trade marked.
www.reachandclean.co.uk
the only reach and clean trademarked seems to be toothbrushes, which is in a different category, i think i'll go with it and see if any other massive business wants to goliath me, thanks to all the Ionics police and the hater who provided Ionics with the photo. Lesson learned.
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Here is the link to the 'reach & wash' registration information:
www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E4682308 (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E4682308)
I couldn't find the phrase reach and clean registered.
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Another company uses that as their branding of their equipment! Not sure though if it's trade marked.
www.reachandclean.co.uk
the only reach and clean trademarked seems to be toothbrushes, which is in a different category, i think i'll go with it and see if any other massive business wants to goliath me, thanks to all the Ionics police and the hater who provided Ionics with the photo. Lesson learned.
Register the trademark yourself!!! Then charge them for a licence to use it ;)
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To keep a trademark from becoming a generic term you have to be seen to be defending it.
ie hoover is now an accepted term for all vacuum cleaners
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Is it possible to repost the pictures and airbrush out the offending Logo as a first step? Most companies won't pursue a matter in court unless they really have to.
Simon.
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this is what i'm emailing the guy from Ionics who wrote to me:
Please accept my apologies. I had no idea that Ionic Systems Ltd had trademark over the words “Reach & Wash”. You are correct, I am not a customer of Ionic Systems Ltd and do not have an Ionic’s system on board my van. I will remove the words “Reach & Wash” from my signage straight away.
It would have been useful on your website to state that it was a registered trademark as I could have avoided the expense incurred; needless to say I understand your company’s position on this but feel I have been “picked on” because my signage looks so good.
I never intended to pass myself off as a user of Ionic’s equipment and as far as I am aware my customers have no idea who Ionic Systems Ltd are and that “Reach & Wash” pertained to Ionic Systems Ltd (this maybe something for your marketing people to look into?).
However, as I am a law abiding citizen I will respect your registered trademark.
Yours sincerely
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this is what i'm emailing the guy from Ionics who wrote to me:
Please accept my apologies. I had no idea that Ionic Systems Ltd had trademark over the words “Reach & Wash”. You are correct, I am not a customer of Ionic Systems Ltd and do not have an Ionic’s system on board my van. I will remove the words “Reach & Wash” from my signage straight away.
It would have been useful on your website to state that it was a registered trademark as I could have avoided the expense incurred; needless to say I understand your company’s position on this but feel I have been “picked on” because my signage looks so good.
I never intended to pass myself off as a user of Ionic’s equipment and as far as I am aware my customers have no idea who Ionic Systems Ltd are and that “Reach & Wash” pertained to Ionic Systems Ltd (this maybe something for your marketing people to look into?).
However, as I am a law abiding citizen I will respect your registered trademark.
Yours sincerely
Very nice letter stoneleech.
As you say, it would be hard to suggest you are impersonating an Ionics system.
...seeing as no customer has ever heard of them or understands what they sell, there wouldnt be a pecuiary andvantage any way.
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ionics sounds like complet f***in idiots if ye ask me.
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second that, a watched a demo of thers wasnt impressed by the guy at all.
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ionics must have someone check these sites for picture sof peoples vans.
sad day indeed.
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Its sad that they're cracking down on the small guy, who is at the end of the day actually advertising their system for them free of charge anyway!!!
I thought all this trademark nonsense had stopped 12 months ago, but apparently some numpty in Ionics feels the need to start again.
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I noticed x-line also had the wording on their website, surprised Ionics had not taken action yet.
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I dont know why everyone wants this on there stuff anyway unless they have an ionic system.
I use water fed pole system if ever I explain to others, reach and wash just gets blank looks.
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Its sad that they're cracking down on the small guy, who is at the end of the day actually advertising their system for them free of charge anyway!!!
I thought all this trademark nonsense had stopped 12 months ago, but apparently some numpty in Ionics feels the need to start again.
Personally, I think Ionics do themselves no favours at all with this sort of thing.
Granted, they hold trademark and have every right to defend it.
...But it does look ever so petty and small minded.
Stoneleech does highlight something very interesting - I picked up my copy of Ionics magazine (2007/08 in gold) and sure enough, He's right! The Ionics name is clearly highlighted with a (c) symbol but the "Reach and Wash" is not highlighted as (c) or TM. Surely you have a duty to make it clear that something is indeed trademarked.....unless you want people to fall into a trap?
I can think of one person in particular who has allowed me to use not only his bloody good system name but also his artwork. Free of Charge. Sent to my email address. I never bought anything off this fella. And not so much as a 'thank you' asked in return
Guess who's getting my future business? ;)
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ionics must have someone check these sites for picture sof peoples vans.
sad day indeed.
I know it's a member from this site....I got a phone call within minutes from Ionics as soon as I posted my pics.
I dont know why everyone wants this on there stuff anyway unless they have an ionic system.
If i knew reach and wash had anything to do with Ionics I wouldn't have had anything put on the van in the first place.
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Stoneleech,
I feel for you fella. Seriously.
This has nothing to do with me. I dont know you personally...but it really makes my blood boil.
Maybe because so many people have freely given not only their knowledge, but also their pictures and Invoices and Risk Assessments and H&S statements and Flyers and Logos all for free and not so much as a 'thank you' asked in return.
From the supposed 'Leader in the field' they strike me as being VERY MUCH against window cleaners and VERY MUCH for profit at any cost.
...Lets not forget this is the company that is selling WFP systems designed for the 'home market' and 'commercial user' thus cutting out the need for a window cleaner entirely.
I would love nothing more than to see a totally 'trademark free' bunch of words and phrases that we can all claim as our own if we dont want to spend tens of thousands of pounds for something that in reality is worth a few thousand (at most!).
Somebody has seriously shot themselves in the foot with this one.
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I have to agree that they make themselves look like muppets and this is one of the reasons i wouldnt bye from them in the future, the only people who know what REACH & WASH means is fellow cleaners.
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I know someone that has 1 thermopure in 1 van and a DIY in the other,both vans have Reach and Wash on the vans and have logo`s etc all over them.If they were doing everything by the book he should have an ionic system in each van,otherwise you could buy 1 system and have 4-5 others vans with DIY setups in them.
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Its sad that they're cracking down on the small guy, who is at the end of the day actually advertising their system for them free of charge anyway!!!
I thought all this trademark nonsense had stopped 12 months ago, but apparently some numpty in Ionics feels the need to start again.
Personally, I think Ionics do themselves no favours at all with this sort of thing.
Granted, they hold trademark and have every right to defend it.
...But it does look ever so petty and small minded.
Stoneleech does highlight something very interesting - I picked up my copy of Ionics magazine (2007/08 in gold) and sure enough, He's right! The Ionics name is clearly highlighted with a (c) symbol but the "Reach and Wash" is not highlighted as (c) or TM. Surely you have a duty to make it clear that something is indeed trademarked.....unless you want people to fall into a trap?
I can think of one person in particular who has allowed me to use not only his bloody good system name but also his artwork. Free of Charge. Sent to my email address. I never bought anything off this fella. And not so much as a 'thank you' asked in return
Guess who's getting my future business? ;)
You make a good point. Ionics are alienating possible future customers by taking this stance. I do understand their position but it does come across as bullying to me.
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I dont blame them really, like i said earlier
If they dont appear to defend there trademark , then they can lose it, then all there competitors can use it.
If they want to keep it then they have to defend it,
If you knew about trademark law then you would know this.
p.s. Ionics are always online, they just dont post any more.
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I dont blame them really, like i said earlier
If they dont appear to defend there trademark , then they can lose it, then all there competitors can use it.
If they want to keep it then they have to defend it,
If you knew about trademark law then you would know this.
p.s. Ionics are always online, they just dont post any more.
Do you mean they dont answer criticism?...... or just silently monitor activity?
Either way, they strike me as a bunch of money hungry sell-outs who have no real interest in window cleaners and have more interest in selling their "systems" to whoever will buy them.
They sell to "Domestic"....to eliminate window cleaners
They sell to "Commercial".....to eliminate window cleaners
How this shower can be supported by any professional window cleaner is beyond my comprehension......... You are selling your soul to the Devil!!
Prove me wrong Ionics!
Tell me the 2007/08 catalogue does not include "Domestic" or "Commercial" systems designed at removing window cleaners?
Ionics,
If you're watching (which obviously you are!)
Prove me wrong. Tell me (and all of us window cleaners) you have our best interest at heart.
You dont. You have your profit margin and sales figures at heart.
Alex Gardiner or Nat or Purefreedom have more chance of taking my money because they have the good grace to appear and defend/listen to criticism.
Your actions concerning your "trademark" have made me a very unhappy bunny.
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a member on here hey ::)
hmmmmmm
i wonder
got to be someone with one of their systems
someone who likes to report on people
hmmmmm
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Here Here David Slater,
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Here Here David Slater,
Jaykie,
I've read with interest your progression over the last few months.
Flyers, canvassing, advertising. first commercial job!...etc etc etc
Your highs and lows have left me with mixed feelings.. but I always read your posts!
Let me just state right now (before anyone else tries it!) I WILL NOT be selling a system. I WILL NOT be selling poles....for that matter I WILL NOT be selling anything!
I have no 'vested interest' in the success or failure of any company selling systems or poles.
"certain companies" have come to my attention who may need a bit of a wake up call.
I will NOT be bullied by anyone or any company.
I welcome open and honest debate.
If any company feels the need to respond to my suggestions/input/critsims then I shall welcome a full and frank discussion in an open forum.....not some horrible little phone call away from the public gaze.
I'm calling you out...."Big Boy"
You want to answer little teeny weeny Slater?
...of course you dont ;)
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Im a little confused what your saying.
Chris
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I want to know if that was a negative post towards me from David as here here is ment when backing someones comments.
Chris
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reach and wash means nowt to most people
window washers
now thats a phrase that needs a copyright on it ;D
much more to the point
perfect even
;)
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I want to know if that was a negative post towards me from David as here here is ment when backing someones comments.
Chris
Jaykie,
No Way mate!!!!
You're new. I'm new....Ive been watching your development with interest.
No way in a million years is it meant as a negative post!
As far as I can see, you're doing well in my book. You're progressing and still asking questions and seeking advice.
I find most of the questions I want to ask have already been asked by you....so I watch your posts for I how should be going forward.
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Thanks David i appreciate that its hard to understand sometimes when things
are written on a screen rather then heard in person, im glad i come across well
as i would always like to help people and only ever stop when they stab me in
the back, ive always been told to never trust another wc but ill trust only once, i like
to help on this forum, take a lot in and use it myself but still finding it hard to feel
like i can really give advise on here as dont want to come across like i no it all
after such a short period as theres people on here who been doing it over 30
years.
just passed some work on to another cleaner as cant take it all on and also
have some work to give to another lad who is just setting up in my area as its
not in my area and its all trad work so andy east sussex if your reading this then
give me a ring on the number i left you.
Chris
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I think your wrong David there business is aimed at window cleaners.
If any of us had the foresight to trade mark “Reach & Wash” we would have done it ourselves and won’t like it if others start using it without permission.
Business is competitive, window cleaners are competing to get work from other window cleaners. Doesn’t matter what system you have.
Ionic’s thought are trying to sell you a complete package part of that is the “Reach & Wash” logo so they are also protecting the customers (image)
I think we all will have profit margins as the main reason for working, unless there are a few that do it for charity.
I would have thought if you have had a website built for you, have a look at the bottom of the page you will most likely have a copyright symbol!
:)
Ewan,
Its funny you should mention websites because I'm in the process of getting mine developed.
It will be professionally designed, and yes, you will be free to use the words or layout however you wish.
Its the least I could do seeing as most of the pictures/logos will have come free of charge through this and other forums.
We're not talking about Ionics selling a "complete package" to window cleaners though are we?
May I draw your attention to Page 8 of the 2007/08 (gold) catalogue -
RESIDENTIAL: "Primarily designed for HOME OWNERS....."
showing a lovely little system that plugs into your outside tap.....hhhmmmm
window cleaner required?...dont think so!
PAGE 9:
"The big brother of the "residential" cartridge system. It holds 12 times more De-Ionised water....which also applies to the residentail system"
Window cleaners systems but selling as domestic??... shurely shome mistake?
We could also include Page 24 Pro-5(TM) Access Trolley...but there is no explicit wording to suggest that it can be used by "non window cleaners"...but I feel the inference is indeed there for commercial customers....draw you own conclusions after reading the catalogue.
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Thanks David i appreciate that its hard to understand sometimes when things
are written on a screen rather then heard in person, im glad i come across well
as i would always like to help people and only ever stop when they stab me in
the back, ive always been told to never trust another wc but ill trust only once, i like
to help on this forum, take a lot in and use it myself but still finding it hard to feel
like i can really give advise on here as dont want to come across like i no it all
after such a short period as theres people on here who been doing it over 30
years.
just passed some work on to another cleaner as cant take it all on and also
have some work to give to another lad who is just setting up in my area as its
not in my area and its all trad work so andy east sussex if your reading this then
give me a ring on the number i left you.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I'm up in the North West so you're a long way from me.
Dont stop posting because I DO track your posts. You're about 6 months in front of me and I always try and look in on your posts.
I might not answer (because I'm looking for the same answers!). But you have a fan here who is rooting for your success.
I got my first commercial quote recently as well!!!.....so fingers crossed I get it :)
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why would anyone care about poxy reach and wash ::)
does it actually mean anytthing to anyone outside of industry
i had never even heard of em till i came on this site
so how many commercial or residential customers will have
and how many will care ???
my van says "hi reach-pure water system"
that probably means nowt to most prospective customers either
work keeps coming in tho ;D
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Reach and Wash is not a trademark. 'Reach & Wash' is. They can't touch you if you use the former.
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I've been looking into registering my own trademarks,... and it isn't cheap! £200 for UK only and £900 for a European trademark is the best I've found so far.
It is a bit worrying that anyone could take my company name/slogan, trademark it, and then sue me for using it!!!
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I've been looking into registering my own trademarks,... and it isn't cheap! £200 for UK only and £900 for a European trademark is the best I've found so far.
It is a bit worrying that anyone could take my company name/slogan, trademark it, and then sue me for using it!!!
hi nat
i like your thermoshine logo, can i use it please ;D ;D ;D
i wont sue you honest.
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I dont know why you are worried about Ionics, they have done more for this industry than most. Maybe with a vested interest, but all the same they have done a lot.
There are millions of windows out there, if you cant get your market share then you are doing something wrong.
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I think about 100'000 including part timers.
There are about 24 million houses, but havent got a clue about how many commercial premises there are.
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Assuming 1 in 5 have their windows cleaned (guessing), that leaves about
5 million houses to clean, divide that by 100,000 window cleaners and you get each window cleaner with 50 houses? Don't seem right somehow ???
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Hi Dave
Somehing wrong with your equation-if one in five has their windows cleaned then 19,000,000 need a window cleaner
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The house figure is according to the national statistic centre, I have researched the window cleaning numbers a few times, there are all sorts of figures as you said.
The most reliable one i think was found on connexions or another government site, cant remember which one exactly.
A lot of window cleaners are part time and a good percentage have a lot of commercial.
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Hi Dave
Somehing wrong with your equation-if one in five has their windows cleaned then 19,000,000 need a window cleaner
Dont you mean John.
Glyn has also done a lot for the industry, thanks Glyn
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The residential systems are not massively popular. Most people can't be bothered, this is why they employ a window cleaner in most cases, not because of a lack of equipment. After all, most domestic windows open in for cleaning.
Ettore make far more money from domestic plastic squeegies than they from selling pro gear to window cleaners. Ionic are trying to do the same. This is just business. But don't worry, the nation is not suddenly turning to DIY.
Unlike Ettore, the bulk of Ionic's sales are to pro window cleaners.
I have asked my contacts there about all the Trade Mark stuff before. It is primarily to stop other manufacturers from passing off their equipment as Ionics.
However, because they are trying to market the term as a mark of high quality, they have to defend all unauthorised use.
You could simply use the term "Pole Cleaning" or "Water-fed Pole". Most people know what you are referring to. One of our customers calls it the "Stretch & Wash" system. Except she is scottish so she says "Streetch & Wahsh" ::)
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I have to admit this is pretty hilarious. Especially what david slater has said.
LOL
"Shot themselves in the foot" "made me a very unhappy bunny" LOL do you think they could give a toss what anyone on here thinks? 99% on here are not and in all likelihood never be their customers anyway. I'm an exception and look how much stick I get lol. No, no the people on here are primarily bodge-it merchants who cant quite believe the prices that ionics can charge, so they're not loosing anything by upsetting a bunch of forum numpties. And as for nobody knowing what it is, thats wrong. Commercial customers ONLY know reach & wash, they dont say "waterfed pole system". LOL if its such a not-known-about thing then why is everyone and his dog falling over themselves to use it even illegally.
And LOL @ L.J.Thorpe. Think you might have meant my good self? I'll be honest, on this occasion I had nothing to do with reporting anyone, and I cant even remember the original thread.
HOWEVER, I would not hesitate to report someone if they were using the logo when they didnt have a real reach and wash system, especially if they were local to me.
Like I said, I think its pretty funny. My advice is, if you want to use their logo then do what I did and get one of their systems. Simple really.
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I am going to use there Logo on my new van , I cant believe it free !!!!! ;D
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sorry t clean... you come a cross as such a prick
Sorry to contradict you , but the particular part of the anatomy refered to is usefull , so it doesnt apply to toilet clean ;D
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Hi Dave
Somehing wrong with your equation-if one in five has their windows cleaned then 19,000,000 need a window cleaner
I'm assuming you mean me ;D
Dave said "There are about 24 million houses" I assumed (correctly or incorrectly) that 1 in 5 have their windows cleaned, then 24,000,000 divided by 5 = 4,800,000, I rounded this up to 5 million.
How did you get 19 million, glad you're not my accountant ;)
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Hi Dave
Somehing wrong with your equation-if one in five has their windows cleaned then 19,000,000 need a window cleaner
I'm assuming you mean me ;D
Dave said "There are about 24 million houses" I assumed (correctly or incorrectly) that 1 in 5 have their windows cleaned, then 24,000,000 divided by 5 = 4,800,000, I rounded this up to 5 million.
How did you get 19 million, glad you're not my accountant ;)
Dave has a firm of accountants !
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i use it on my van....i bought the domestic system(pole and di cartridge)...five years a go for one off job...well worth it
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;D ;D ;D
never thought of that, even if it is residential it is a complete system that they offer for sale.
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Hi Dave
Somehing wrong with your equation-if one in five has their windows cleaned then 19,000,000 need a window cleaner
I'm assuming you mean me ;D
Dave said "There are about 24 million houses" I assumed (correctly or incorrectly) that 1 in 5 have their windows cleaned, then 24,000,000 divided by 5 = 4,800,000, I rounded this up to 5 million.
How did you get 19 million, glad you're not my accountant ;)
Dave has a firm of accountants !
Who mentioned Dave, it was Glyn that made the mathmatical error....get with it :P
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Reach and Wash is not a trademark. 'Reach & Wash' is. They can't touch you if you use the former.
I had a listing for a pole removed on ebay before for saying "you can reach and wash windows with this pole" as the listing breached copyright.
We emailed the guy to ask what his problem was that reported it to ebay and he couldn't give a straight answer when we said to him that you cant copyright the english language. i wish i could remember what his name was he's prob on here or some of the other forums. the funny thing was we sold the pole and some other stuff as we had an order with ionic for a new multipole at the time.
very very petty me thinks
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Iv'e had a thought there are many more individuals with diy and cheaper pro systems out there than an ionic system and most of them use the forums. therefor would it not be more benificial for these people to club together and create the industry standard logo on the forums that is universal to use by all wfp'ers and then there will be no need to use other companies logos as they will mean less in the industry. job done ;)
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Its there trade mark, so even if you do buy any system you still need there permission to use the “Reach & Wash” logo.
:)
I'm not using their picture logo as I understood that to be Ionics system logo (which I do not have), however I didn't realise the words Reach & Wash were trademarked as there is no reference on their website that it is. If they had put clearly the words reach & wash were trademarked by themselves, i would never have used it, incurred expense etc. And also someone has grassed me up and killed my buzz about my van and the enthusiasm I felt about starting off my own enterprise.... which doesn't feel very nice. Like I said lessons learned.
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Iv'e had a thought there are many more individuals with diy and cheaper pro systems out there than an ionic system and most of them use the forums. therefor would it not be more benificial for these people to club together and create the industry standard logo on the forums that is universal to use by all wfp'ers and then there will be no need to use other companies logos as they will mean less in the industry. job done ;)
Like "Kludge and Wash" you mean? :)
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reach and bosh ;D
super ultra pure quality diy wfp technology for less than £600 including van yes, pure power to the people.
i dont even care i dont even have a van and dont want to use any logos. ;D ;D ;D
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reach and bosh ;D
super ultra pure quality diy wfp technology for less than £600 including van yes, pure power to the people.
i dont even care i dont even have a van and dont want to use any logos. ;D ;D ;D
How about Rick Shaw. The window cleaner who uses pedal power :)
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Does any one know if you could have “Reach and Wash Window Cleaning” ?
Wouldn't have thought so.
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personaly i think washing is something you do with a car or clothes, maybe clean is better as we are window cleaners not washers ;D
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personaly i think washing is something you do with a car or clothes, maybe clean is better as we are window cleaners not washers ;D
My wife and I were talking about that yesterday - it's an Americanism 'window washing' and 'window washers'. We always refer in the UK to 'window cleaning' and 'window cleaners' so 'reach and clean' is far more UK specific.
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I agree. ;D
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personaly i think washing is something you do with a car or clothes, maybe clean is better as we are window cleaners not washers ;D
I wash windows therefor I am a window washer
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I know people who use the logo as they had there system in the past, before i got into window cleaning i just thought that the ionics sign just ment the person had a tank in the back and cleaned windows with a pole with a brush on the end and the method was called reach and wash, dont tell me that commercial companys have ever rung up a window cleaner and said we are only willing to ask you to clean our premises if you have a ionics system on board of your van, all they care about is that its cleaned properly and within h&s.
Chris
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The key is you put something on the side of your van don`t go telling everyone,i see Reach and Wash vans about from time to time but never look inside so who`s to say they have 1.
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I wash windows therefor I am a window washer
you are indeed i can see that. LOL tell me something how do you wash the inside of the windows ?
;D ;D ;D
DON;T TAKE NO NOTICE OF ME I'M ONLY HAVIN A LAUGH TODAY IT'S SUNDAY AND I'M BORED ;D
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I wash windows therefor I am a window washer
you are indeed i can see that. LOL tell me something how do you wash the inside of the windows ?
;D ;D ;D
DON;T TAKE NO NOTICE OF ME I'M ONLY HAVIN A LAUGH TODAY IT'S SUNDAY AND I'M BORED ;D
I could be using Ionics inside window washer :P
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LOL Good answer. you mean the £4000 carpet machine ? but it's far too slow and bulky and only works if you stand at the right angle what if there is something in your way do you know if its crash tested? ;D ;D ;D
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I know at least 4 window cleaners in my region with the ionics logo on the side of there van and they use what i think look similar to freedom trollies.
Ionics want to grow up IMO and get there crap website soughted out.
I would just put the words (NEW REACH & WASH) on the side of your van, i doubt very much they could or would even want to pursue this through the courts.
I personally would never buy an overpriced piece of kit like Ionics Systems there is absolutley no need.
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LOL they don't need to sue you (though I'm sure they could) they only need to report you to trading standards. Because saying you use reach and wash when in actual fact you use Mr Bodgit's DIY system, is fasle selling or something.
Like saying you sell Armani perfume when its really something else entirely
Then you'll be right up the creek
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Toilet clean why dont you just go away and find a new hobby ?
Because I'd miss you too much merson old pal, and lets face it you would miss me too
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Have you decided that reporting ladder users isn't enough,.. and now you've joined the "reach and wash" police Tennet??!!
;) :)
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£30 to get signage ammended.
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Lets time how long after i make this post this item is still on ebay, its 10.24am now.
h ttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Water-Fed-Pole-for-Reach-Wash_W0QQitemZ230282383173QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item230282383173&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
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LOL they don't need to sue you (though I'm sure they could) they only need to report you to trading standards. Because saying you use reach and wash when in actual fact you use Mr Bodgit's DIY system, is fasle selling or something.
Like saying you sell Armani perfume when its really something else entirely
Then you'll be right up the creek
What a load of CODS WALLOP, The term REACH & WASH is synonymous with the use of waterfef poles, not the kit.
My friend I doubt very much Ionics or trading standards could or would even want to persue the fact that you have (NEW REACH AND WASH) wording on your van just because your not using an Ionics System.
The Mr Bodgits DIY Syatem as you call it does the same, if not a better job, Ioncis systems are just glorified mr Bodgits System as you would like to call them. I use a 1000 litre tank (Meaning I never run out of water) 100psi Shurflo pump and varistream controller, HXTEL poles, Optima Yellow Top YT S 4.2 Deep Cycle Battery, Onboard split charger, Static 1000 litre tank at home, 300 GPD RO and I dont suffer from frozen pipes.
The only advantage Ionics has over mine is it re-circulates a percentage of waste water, Good if your on a water meter (Thats all)
Ionics PRO7-1000TP – 1,000 litre System £10,500
Mr Bodgit - 1,000 Litre System £2000
You dont need heat to stop the pipes from freezing in winter either.
In your infinite wisdom please tell me where you can get better kit than mine.
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My friend I doubt very much Ionics or trading standards could or would even want to persue the fact that you have (NEW REACH AND WASH) wording on your van just because your not using an Ionics System.
I wouldn't be so sure, read this topic again from the start and search the forum for reach and wash and amongst the posts you will see that Ionics have a bit of form in this respect. They have also made numerous complaints to the advertising standards authority. If they have done it before then they will do it again.
LOL they don't need to sue you (though I'm sure they could) they only need to report you to trading standards. Because saying you use reach and wash when in actual fact you use Mr Bodgit's DIY system, is fasle selling or something.
Like saying you sell Armani perfume when its really something else entirely
Then you'll be right up the creek
What a load of CODS WALLOP, The term REACH & WASH is synonymous with the use of waterfef poles, not the kit.
My friend I doubt very much Ionics or trading standards could or would even want to persue the fact that you have (NEW REACH AND WASH) wording on your van just because your not using an Ionics System.
The Mr Bodgits DIY Syatem as you call it does the same, if not a better job, Ioncis systems are just glorified mr Bodgits System as you would like to call them. I use a 1000 litre tank (Meaning I never run out of water) 100psi Shurflo pump and varistream controller, HXTEL poles, Optima Yellow Top YT S 4.2 Deep Cycle Battery, Onboard split charger, Static 1000 litre tank at home, 300 GPD RO and I dont suffer from frozen pipes.
The only advantage Ionics has over mine is it re-circulates a percentage of waste water, Good if your on a water meter (Thats all)
Ionics PRO7-1000TP – 1,000 litre System £10,500
Mr Bodgit - 1,000 Litre System £2000
You dont need heat to stop the pipes from freezing in winter either.
In your infinite wisdom please tell me where you can get better kit than mine.
Tennet wasn't having ago at anyones equipment (for once) his point was quite valid imo. The fact is that ionics have registered reach & wash as a brand name for their wfp systems. As it is their brand I can quite understand them wanting to protect it and really it no longer matters if it was a common terms used to describe wfp as it is now trade marked simple as that. You couldn't bring out a cola drink and call it coca cola or the new pepsi. The companies would be straight onto to you for attempting to steal their brand.
As for thinking "oh I am only small fry in their eyes i doubt they'll bother with me" don't be so sure. Years ago there was a shop in Tewkesbury. When it opened the owners had came up with a name for it (Can't remember what it was though), at the same time Disney launched a new product with the same name (although at the time it the owners weren't aware of this fact) Now the product was a success and became a well known name for Disney. Meanwhile the shop in Tewkesbury continued as before (with the owners remarking on the coincidence that both they and Disney hit upon the same name). Then one day a letter arrived from Disney, they demanded that the shops name is changed, the owners did try to put up a fight but to cut a long story short Disney made it quite clear that they would take all the action they could to prevent the shop trading with their brand name. Now Disney is an international, multi billion pound empire and they still went to great lengths to stop the shop (which was in a back street of a small town) using their name. Less than 0.5% of Disneys customers would of ever known that this shop existed and yet they still tracked them down. Disney is much bigger than Ionics and I would imagine that they have many more breaches of their trademarks than Ionics but yet they still went after the small fry. Therefore I think that it is quite possible that Ionics would take action against w/c's using their trademarked words.
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At the end of the day, the law is the law. In this case it states that it is against the law to trade/use/reproduce/pass yourself off as/etc using someone else's registered trademark.
The vast majority of window cleaners are exceptionally law abiding citizens and even if there was no chance of action would not want to break the law of the land by using a trademark without permission.
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I have to admit this is pretty hilarious. Especially what david slater has said.
LOL
"Shot themselves in the foot" "made me a very unhappy bunny" LOL do you think they could give a toss what anyone on here thinks? 99% on here are not and in all likelihood never be their customers anyway. I'm an exception and look how much stick I get lol. No, no the people on here are primarily bodge-it merchants who cant quite believe the prices that ionics can charge, so they're not loosing anything by upsetting a bunch of forum numpties. And as for nobody knowing what it is, thats wrong. Commercial customers ONLY know reach & wash, they dont say "waterfed pole system". LOL if its such a not-known-about thing then why is everyone and his dog falling over themselves to use it even illegally.
And LOL @ L.J.Thorpe. Think you might have meant my good self? I'll be honest, on this occasion I had nothing to do with reporting anyone, and I cant even remember the original thread.
HOWEVER, I would not hesitate to report someone if they were using the logo when they didnt have a real reach and wash system, especially if they were local to me.
Like I said, I think its pretty funny. My advice is, if you want to use their logo then do what I did and get one of their systems. Simple really.
Tennent,
Trust me on this fella.
You dont get 'stick' due to your support of Ionics, but because of your aggresive and argumentative style of posting.
I'm sure Ionics squirm just as much when they read your posts as they do mine.
Your style of your posting is to attempt to belittle and intimidate other posters into backing down and accepting the status quo.
I try to highlight and challenge the accepted standard and see if there are other views/opinions/ideas.
A perfect case in point is the topic on Ionics crash testing standards.
You wade in and throw your (flawed) knowledge around in an attempt to make other posters back down. As soon as the issue was clearly highlighted and some very real concerns and very real solutions were highlighted you went very quiet for some strange reason.
Dont try and intimidate me Tennent. TALK and DISCUSS your thoughts and ideas with me. I will listen and I may even take on board what you're saying.
The amount of help and information/advice I have received from these boards is staggering. Its just a shame you dont want to share your knowledge in the same spirit.
If you want to argue with me, thats fine. We can arrange our very own "lets throw insults at each other" thread.....I doubt it we be beneficial or helpful in the long run to anyone (including you or I).
You like Ionics and have found their products good value/reliable/serviceable/backup to be good/ etc etc Thats great! why not argue your point from that stance?
...But what would you do if someone came along with an even BETTER system?...you'd look ever so silly of you bought it!
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I have to admit this is pretty hilarious. Especially what david slater has said.
LOL
"Shot themselves in the foot" "made me a very unhappy bunny" LOL do you think they could give a toss what anyone on here thinks? 99% on here are not and in all likelihood never be their customers anyway. I'm an exception and look how much stick I get lol. No, no the people on here are primarily bodge-it merchants who cant quite believe the prices that ionics can charge, so they're not loosing anything by upsetting a bunch of forum numpties. And as for nobody knowing what it is, thats wrong. Commercial customers ONLY know reach & wash, they dont say "waterfed pole system". LOL if its such a not-known-about thing then why is everyone and his dog falling over themselves to use it even illegally.
And LOL @ L.J.Thorpe. Think you might have meant my good self? I'll be honest, on this occasion I had nothing to do with reporting anyone, and I cant even remember the original thread.
HOWEVER, I would not hesitate to report someone if they were using the logo when they didnt have a real reach and wash system, especially if they were local to me.
Like I said, I think its pretty funny. My advice is, if you want to use their logo then do what I did and get one of their systems. Simple really.
Tennent,
Trust me on this fella.
You dont get 'stick' due to your support of Ionics, but because of your aggresive and argumentative style of posting.
I'm sure Ionics squirm just as much when they read your posts as they do mine.
Your style of your posting is to attempt to belittle and intimidate other posters into backing down and accepting the status quo.
I try to highlight and challenge the accepted standard and see if there are other views/opinions/ideas.
A perfect case in point is the topic on Ionics crash testing standards.
You wade in and throw your (flawed) knowledge around in an attempt to make other posters back down. As soon as the issue was clearly highlighted and some very real concerns and very real solutions were highlighted you went very quiet for some strange reason.
Dont try and intimidate me Tennent. TALK and DISCUSS your thoughts and ideas with me. I will listen and I may even take on board what you're saying.
The amount of help and information/advice I have received from these boards is staggering. Its just a shame you dont want to share your knowledge in the same spirit.
If you want to argue with me, thats fine. We can arrange our very own "lets throw insults at each other" thread.....I doubt it we be beneficial or helpful in the long run to anyone (including you or I).
You like Ionics and have found their products good value/reliable/serviceable/backup to be good/ etc etc Thats great! why not argue your point from that stance?
...But what would you do if someone came along with an even BETTER system?...you'd look ever so silly of you bought it!
Best post of the year !!! Well done that man ;D
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LOL they don't need to sue you (though I'm sure they could) they only need to report you to trading standards. Because saying you use reach and wash when in actual fact you use Mr Bodgit's DIY system, is fasle selling or something.
Like saying you sell Armani perfume when its really something else entirely
Then you'll be right up the creek
VERY VERY WRONG Tennent,
Think about it for one moment and break it down -
NOBODY is using the Ionics logo (you use Armani as an example) which is a trading name.
What you are saying is "ARMANI" and "Perfume" are one and the same....WRONG!
Ionics - a commercial name and brand
Reach and Wash - a term used for a product
Just to spell it out to you using your own analogy -
Armani - a commercial name and brand
Perfume - a term used for a product
If anybody attempted to use 'Ionics' on the side of their van, then I would be 100% behind Ionics and state that this was 'theft' and the culprit should have the full weight of the law thrown at them.
....but nobody actually did. Did they ;)
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What if there is no tomorrow? There wasn't one today.
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David mate, whatever you're on, I want some!
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Don't Ionics get "chopsy" if you use that Mr. Blobby/Cyberman thing with a dripping stick that passes for a logo along with the words "Reach and Wash"?
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David mate, whatever you're on, I want some!
Another thought provoking, well reasoned, articulate point by Tennet.
Oh well......I tried ::)
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David why don’t you put “Reach & Wash” on your vehicle and any other stationary, then contact Ionic and tell them what you have done!
Let us know what happens.
:)
Ewan,
Give me 7 weeks to get the website up and I think you'll be VERY surprised with just who has given me permission to use logos/pictures/text and layout.
Hopefully, you'll also be impressed with the results.
On the subject of Reach and Wash - why should I even attempt to use it? Ionics have clearly shown what they will do if I try.
No matter.
...I'm sure they wont mind me giving my business to other companies.
Quid Pro Quo.....as they say ;)
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David mate, whatever you're on, I want some!
Another thought provoking, well reasoned, articulate point by Tennet.
Oh well......I tried ::)
Just a word of advice mate , dont feed the troll ! Keep on doing what you do , earning a good living ! And dont take notice of the idiots on this site ! Do you play golf ? My golfing partner is moving abroad , so I need a replacement ;D
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David mate, whatever you're on, I want some!
Another thought provoking, well reasoned, articulate point by Tennet.
Oh well......I tried ::)
Just a word of advice mate , dont feed the troll ! Keep on doing what you do , earning a good living ! And dont take notice of the idiots on this site ! Do you play golf ? My golfing partner is moving abroad , so I need a replacement ;D
LOL...
Funny story about golf -
MY brother in law plays for Preston County (he's very good by all accounts!).
Anyway, my sister is off shopping with my missus so he tells me to come along for a game of golf.
He shows me how to 'address the ball' and all of that stuff....I take a big swing and crack!!! I broke my thumb!
I hit a piece of turf about 2 foot wide into the air and collapsed onto the floor in agony.
4 hours in casualty and 4 months physio!
lol....I've never played since and he wont let me forget it ;D
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David mate, whatever you're on, I want some!
Another thought provoking, well reasoned, articulate point by Tennet.
Oh well......I tried ::)
Just a word of advice mate , dont feed the troll ! Keep on doing what you do , earning a good living ! And dont take notice of the idiots on this site ! Do you play golf ? My golfing partner is moving abroad , so I need a replacement ;D
LOL...
Funny story about golf -
MY brother in law plays for Preston County (he's very good by all accounts!).
Anyway, my sister is off shopping with my missus so he tells me to come along for a game of golf.
He shows me how to 'address the ball' and all of that stuff....I take a big swing and crack!!! I broke my thumb!
I hit a piece of turf about 2 foot wide into the air and collapsed onto the floor in agony.
4 hours in casualty and 4 months physio!
lol....I've never played since and he wont let me forget it ;D
Thats what family of for . . . . LOL ;D
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Don't Ionics get "chopsy" if you use that Mr. Blobby/Cyberman thing with a dripping stick that passes for a logo along with the words "Reach and Wash"?
Oh just a little bit, and fair enough as the drawing/picture is the logo of ionics.
But how you manage to copyright 3 normal words from the English dictionary is beyond me, but having had dealings with ionics over another issue, trust me, they will pursue what they see as their right.
Trouble is, their very attitude against small window cleaning businesses probably does more harm than good for this part of the market place. But then I guess they don't give a fluck.
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have i missed something ???
someone has deleted a post on here from toilet
it says that most of us are numpties with bodged systems
thats not very nice toilet ;D
did you delete it yourself ???
btw i still think the term means nowt to the majority of commercial or residential customers
certainly not round here
really arrogant post you put up
shows your core beliefs tho i suppose ;)
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Today is tomorrow. It happened!
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There is no tomorrow there never has been same as yesterday!
;D ;D ;D
Is that an Elvis song ?
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Hey thorpe, I didnt delete my post? Its all still there as far as I can tell. Only its far back now, page 5.
I do lack tact, that I admit, but arogant I am not. Actually I have found myself wondering about how other window cleaners work.
I've never been a fan of bodge systems, i think they are bad. But trolley systems fascinate me. If you could work efficiently with a trolley, that would make WFP window cleaning very simple.
I have trouble getting my head around the practicalities of it though. But still, it must work because people use em.
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Hey thorpe, I didnt delete my post? Its all still there as far as I can tell. Only its far back now, page 5.
I do lack tact, that I admit, but arogant I am not. Actually I have found myself wondering about how other window cleaners work.
I've never been a fan of bodge systems, i think they are bad. But trolley systems fascinate me. If you could work efficiently with a trolley, that would make WFP window cleaning very simple.
I have trouble getting my head around the practicalities of it though. But still, it must work because people use em.
People use trolleys yes but i don`t think they`ve had the pleasure of a van mount to compare against it.
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David why don’t you put “Reach & Wash” on your vehicle and any other stationary, then contact Ionic and tell them what you have done!
Let us know what happens.
:)
Ewan,
Give me 7 weeks to get the website up and I think you'll be VERY surprised with just who has given me permission to use logos/pictures/text and layout.
Hopefully, you'll also be impressed with the results.
On the subject of Reach and Wash - why should I even attempt to use it? Ionics have clearly shown what they will do if I try.
No matter.
...I'm sure they wont mind me giving my business to other companies.
Quid Pro Quo.....as they say ;)
Best of luck with that mate, get things in writing.
;)
Ewan,
Everything is via email and it did surprise me the help and encouragement I received.
Some of these guys are after nothing more than offering help, advice and a 'leg up' for a newbie!
I can understand (after the Ionics debacle) how one might be a little bit more cautious....but trust me, you'd be very surprised just how helpful some people are....I was!
Theres some very good people out there!
Hopefully, I'll be able to give something back.
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page 3 actually
apologies i could not find it ;)
thought you had re read it and realised how obnoxious it sounded
silly me eh ;)
should have known you would not be bothered :)
trolleys have their place but so far i have found the van mount quicker overall
less hard work as well
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also i dont think my set up is bodged :)
its diy but its not bodged
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Ive been googling all night,
There are hundreds of uk window cleaning websites using the words Reach & Wash or similar with no mention of Ionics Systems.
Ionics would be in the middle of a legal minefield if they tried to take them all on.
3 words come to mind (Public Relations Nightmare) for Ionics if it ever got in the press, even with a registered trade mark.
I'm sure a well paid expert trade mark barrister would pull Ionics legal team to bits. I bet if i tried to register Reech N Wash as my trade mark i could. The words have the same meaning which I reiterate is Synonymous with waterfed poles.
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Ive been googling all night,
There are hundreds of uk window cleaning websites using the words Reach & Wash or similar with no mention of Ionics Systems.
Ionics would be in the middle of a legal minefield if they tried to take them all on.
3 words come to mind (Public Relations Nightmare) for Ionics if it ever got in the press, even with a registered trade mark.
I'm sure a well paid expert trade mark barrister would pull Ionics legal team to bits. I bet if i tried to register Reech N Wash as my trade mark i could. The words have the same meaning which I reiterate is Synonymous with waterfed poles.
Are we related Mr Slater?
:)
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Not if you have an Ionics system ;D
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Not if you have an Ionics system ;D
lol...
I could'nt let your name pass without a mention.
;D
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and the final giveaway
Watch that step! It's a doozie!
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Reach & wash is a brilliantly simple slogan, so is reach & clean.
The problem we have is in trying to inform the public what we do, in as few letters as possible.
We are constrained by the space we have available on the side of the van. It has to be short and simple.
Is there a more affective word than "reach" to describe what we do with a pole? I can't think of one,
and what do we do when we have reached? Clean, wash, scrub, squirt, splash? We are limited by the lack of alternative words in the English language.
It was a very clever bit of branding by Ionics, and if others follow their example we could actually run out of wording that we could actually use to accurately describe our work method.
I agree that Ionics should protect their poleman symbol, but to register words is opportunistic to say the least, and to threaten window cleaners that use them crosses them off my list of suppliers forever.
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Extend and Squirt
Chris
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Reach & wash is a brilliantly simple slogan, so is reach & clean.
The problem we have is in trying to inform the public what we do, in as few letters as possible.
We are constrained by the space we have available on the side of the van. It has to be short and simple.
Is there a more affective word than "reach" to describe what we do with a pole? I can't think of one,
and what do we do when we have reached? Clean, wash, scrub, squirt, splash? We are limited by the lack of alternative words in the English language.
It was a very clever bit of branding by Ionics, and if others follow their example we could actually run out of wording that we could actually use to accurately describe our work method.
I agree that Ionics should protect their poleman symbol, but to register words is opportunistic to say the least, and to threaten window cleaners that use them crosses them off my list of suppliers forever.
Well said Dai, i wouldnt even contemplate buying off ionics and this is the main reason.
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Extend and Squirt
Chris
Or poke and stroke, no that doesn't quite hit the spot either.
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Extend and Squirt
Chris
Or poke and stroke, no that doesn't quite hit the spot either.
how about slosh & splosh ;D
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Ok heres one for the shurflo backpack user.
wait for it,
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The mince rinse system.
now go get them vans written ;D ;D ;D ;D