[Chris Straker]

Fortunately the opinion of someone that thinks I'm a tit, via a post on a public forum, is of no consequence to me in the slightest ... PARP  

Maybe the surname was poor grammar or even sarcasm, both were wasted, I'm still reeling from the bit that said you read my posts  

[john martin]

So in your opinion John

What would be the best motor configuration for a HWE machine...?
Bearing in mind... performance, price and reliability?  

The Enforcer motors were chosen to keep within the single 13 amps... if the machine had x 2 of the 1650 w motors would this increase the performance enough to justify having to use two sockets?

My question was more ... if you had put two 1650w motors on the one cord , what do you fear would happen ?  Two 1650w motors + 300w for the pump = 15.6 amps .
I cant see an extra 2 amps causing electrical problems , and add to that the fluctuations downwards caused by restriction during the cleaning process  .

Best motor configuration ...  quadvac  .   How about another two of the same motors in your Enforcer  , put the immersion on a three way switch on cord two with the second motor pair  .  Put a check valve between the two pairs ,  you now have the option to use your Enforcer as a twinvac with heat ....  or as a series/parallel quadvac  , but still have the ability to preheat your water when vacs are off .
you could still have your inline at the wand .

As for a twin vac ... i don't know without testing at the wand whether  series or parallel is better , and add to that the variety of motors available with different specs ...i can only speculate .

[Russ Chadd]

Interesting... idea i have to say...
I think for a portable 4 vacs would add more weight and of course you would have to somehow keep the thing well ventilated and cool... those 4 vacs are gonna generate some heat in a confined space.
So going back to a twin vac porty, if you had lets say an Enforcer (series), which vac config would you choose?


5.7 Heavy Duty
5.7 Standard
6.6
7.2
8.4

Also same question if you had a machine designed for parallel?

[john martin]

Interesting... idea i have to say...
I think for a portable 4 vacs would add more weight and of course you would have to somehow keep the thing well ventilated and cool... those 4 vacs are gonna generate some heat in a confined space.
So going back to a twin vac porty, if you had lets say an Enforcer (series), which vac config would you choose?


5.7 Heavy Duty
5.7 Standard
6.6
7.2
8.4

Also same question if you had a machine designed for parallel?

There are so many variables !  

You probably picked the best of what was available to you while keeping on one cord @13amps ( which i think could be exceeded )
Of all of the above i'd say a pair of 8.4s would be the most powerfull ... and they are rated at 7amp max so i would put two on one cord , don't care  

http://www.applegate.co.uk/listings/stock/tizaro/ametek-lamb-vac-motor/12217818-2528096.html

Its probably hard to justify the cost of them though , and they would be heavier than your 5.7s ...  it might also be interesting to try one as the primary series motor with one of your own 5.7s as the second .  

It would be interesting to try a pair of 6.6 in series also , but not worth it if you have to go two cords perhaps .

One of the 7.2s available measures about 144" and 110cfm so thats quite a good performer also but if they are charging around £250 (woodbridges site ) then not worth it over the 5.7 you got .

Of the Electros ... until you mentioned the 1450w and 1650w i didn't know what model electro ashbys is using ...   Electro also have two 1800w conical motors and a nice 1650 two stage  .

If i was choosing motors for a parallel setup then perhaps the ones with the highest lift would be desirable  ,  so i think i would choose either the 1800w electro( on a two cord ) or the 8.4 ( provided it meets it factory lift spec )


I think the quad vac is the only way of really boosting performance , it gets rid of the series vs parallel , which is best thing ... you have lots of both .
You could build a second pair of motors into a small box to sit alongside the Enforcer when needed ...  put a Y splitter on the tube going from the motors to the tank stack ...  route it out the side of the Enforcer ... when not used it could be just capped or have a check valve inline .  The booster box could be pretty small ... large instrument case or plastic toolbox .

[Russ Chadd]

Hi John

What can you tell me about the 1800 conical Electro motors? is there a huge difference in performance between the 1650 watt version?
Also if the two motors are to be placed in series, what would you be looking for in terms of each motors performance figures? high lift or high CFM?

Being "in series" the motors naturally produce higher lift so would you look for a motor which offered better CFM?

[john martin]

Hi John

What can you tell me about the 1800 conical Electro motors? is there a huge difference in performance between the 1650 watt version?
Also if the two motors are to be placed in series, what would you be looking for in terms of each motors performance figures? high lift or high CFM?

Being "in series" the motors naturally produce higher lift so would you look for a motor which offered better CFM?

Thats what i would think also  ...  But then not many motors have both high lift and high cfm  ...
The 8.4 does ... at least on paper
If you read mikeys board or TMF  , larry Cobb has built this custom Mytee with two 8.4s in series that he claims is performing very well ..  The lift looks a little lower than what what might be expected but you only get about 70% lift from the second vac in series i believe ...   but its got the 145cfm
http://www4.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=85&products_id=5103
http://i47.tinypic.com/15ilqt.jpg

The 6.6 is not far off the 8.4 cfm wise so it might be worth a try as a primary motor in series with the three stage  ... its possible the 6.6 would overdrive the second motor giving you the 6.6 cfm with the added lift .

There was a thread here a couple of weeks ago in which what model Electros the enforcer had was discussed ...  ' Fibersafe '  called it better than me ... so he must have made inquires ... how did you know that Fibersafe  

Mytee uses two Electro models ... codenamed  c302 and c302a for 120v
Your primary motor is the c302 ( called the c304 for 230v )
http://www.steam-brite.com/electro-motor-model-q6600090amp26230v-stage-230v-flat-fanvacuum-motor-c304-p-10873.html
I believe that the first motor in the enforcer ... but it could be a slightly different model .

The other motor mytee uses is  the c302a , an 1800w tapered fan design ... mytee use it in the M5 and 2005dx ... and its suppose to be in the escape .
The difference is not huge ... but by motor standards its one of the most powerfull ...
lift would be close to 150" and cfm around 117

The second two stage electro i mentioned , no manufacturer is using as yet , it measures about 125" amd 130cfm  @ under 7amps .

This is my most comprehensive list of electros , iv posted it before ...  they are renamed lighthouse  ...  the conical ones are listed as such ...  dont  get confused by the 220 , 230 , 240v  , its all the same motor id say just reflecting differing voltage ... the ameteks are rated ' 240v so just stick to that for comparison .
And in case anyone order from here ... check they have the correct seal for wet use .

http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/lighthouse.htm

[Russ Chadd]

Thanks for your interesting reply John... The Larry Cobb looks impressive in terms of performance, impressive lift and CFM figures... enough to lift a bowling ball!
At £250 per unit... can that price justify performance not much greater than the cheaper 6.6?
I am a little confused about the combined airwatt he is claiming of 1346? is this figure right because im sure the company who uses the single 8.4 in their central vac units claim that by adding two motors doesn't double the air wattage?

 

[john martin]

Thanks for your interesting reply John... The Larry Cobb looks impressive in terms of performance, impressive lift and CFM figures... enough to lift a bowling ball!
At £250 per unit... can that price justify performance not much greater than the cheaper 6.6?
I am a little confused about the combined airwatt he is claiming of 1346? is this figure right because im sure the company who uses the single 8.4 in their central vac units claim that by adding two motors doesn't double the air wattage?

  

Yes , looks like he just added them up , that would not reflect the losses of the second motor , but calculating the airwatts from the total system figures should ...
Then 220x142/8.5 is a figure in the thousands ... but thats how they did it in the infamous ashbys vs airflex vids .
Hard to justify the 8.4 prices over here at present , actually i'v seen him state the lift figure as 130" on one of the forums so the 120 could be wrong .

Who tests the Motors for ashbys , is it martin ..  do you remember  the  video they had (since removed ) of the twin 6.6 parallel vs the twin series electros ...  that was the best test setup rig i have ever seen anywhere ... the wand mounted on the carpet on some sort of gantry ..lift and cfm measured at the wand .
Any way I'd imagine they would have tested the 6.6 in series also ... but they don't seem interested in using them , wonder why .
This is the only machine i think , using the 6.6 in series ...and no user reviews yet as its newly out ..
http://forum.excellent-supply.com/thread-240.html

[Russ Chadd]

So after reading some of the threads on the TMF, portable machines with a series config seems to be the in thing..
Lots of talk about the Cobb dual 8.4 machine, mixed reviews about the motors though... some with early failure and some still going well even after 400 hours, as we have both noted.. lots of money right now!
That new 6.6 machine is boasting some impressive figures... 225" of lift! i agree that its all about achieving a good balance... high lift is good but so is high flow...

My Enforcer with the two previously mentioned motors, offers very acceptable performance at 50' of 2" hose, im not that hung up about how well it will perform at 100' + seeing as i remove it from my vehicle.

I guess Ashbys prefer the Electro brand... maybe better reliability compared to the Ametek motors? not sure if electro make a 6.6?
 

[john martin]

 No Electros are all 5.7  ,  but the conical two stage is very close in design to the 6.6 .
Its about 1/4 way down the lighthouse list ...  the 6.6 is 132" and 139cfm at about 7.7 amps ( aprox )  the electro is 130" and 130cfm @ 6.9amps .

Four of the two stage would work well  ,   in general though i'd say if the Americans had our 230v they would have lots or powerful quadvacs .  They have to run twice the cords generally as us , the fact that we can have a powerfull two cord four motor setup is under exploited her ... and the motors used don't need to expensive .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVIBnuq50h4

[Russ Chadd]

Yes i see... the LH6472 240v

Pretty balanced at 126" of lift and 130 CFM @ 6.9 amps

What would the figures be (approx) if you had two of these on series? also are these protected against moisture like the 6.6 with its special bearing?

[john martin]

 You would have to inquire , its possible they all have a seal or you might have to order one with ..
This is the 120v vertion on Cobbs site , so im sure it have a seal .

http://www4.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86&products_id=4884

I'd be guessing at the series figures .. but if you allow 70% lift  for the second motor ,
That would be 215" and 130cfm .
and defiantly two on the one cord 

[Paul Moss]

I think you two need to get a room.

[*Hector*]

I think you two need to get a room.

[Russ Chadd]

Interesting stuff this boys... stick around.. you might learn something! 

The model of the more powerful EM i have is : 6600-49
                              
            

[john martin]

Dammit , cut that out   


So , that's printed on the motor ?
Its the same or almost the same as the Mytee c302 / c304

[Russ Chadd]

No markings on the motor... this is a EM data sheet sent to me from Alltec... i wanted the same motors in my new Express machine, the Express is very powerful!

[john martin]

So otherwise they would have used two 1200w lamb in series i suppose ? not sure if they'd use two 1400w .  Wonder how performance compares to yours , sounds good anyway .

[Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning]

So whats the difference between the standard 5.7" Lamb and the HD version?

In english please!! 

[Russ Chadd]

A friend popped over to mine with his Express... all i know is it is loaded with Ametek motors... when he started each motor the pitch was identical, when i started mine the pitch was very different between vacs 1 and 2.
Performance felt similar comparing the two machines.

Standard Electro motor 5.7 = 1200 w
HD Electro motor 5.7 = 1650 w