Interested In Advertising? | Contact Us Here
Warning!

 

Welcome to Clean It Up; the UK`s largest cleaning forum with over 34,000 members

 

Please login or register to post and reply to topics.      

 

Forgot your password? Click here

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2013, 11:50:49 pm »
What i am saying and please let me make myself clear on this matter... is this:
The machine due to its silencer and smaller internal hoses was not allowing it to perform at its optimal level, and if its optimal performance is measured at 370 CFM then well i guess that's that!
How can either of us argue that those claims are false if neither of us were there at the time?

If i told you that a Ford Sierra Cosworth was capable of speeds in excess of 206 mph would you disagree just because Fords data on the vehicle says it should only do 150 mph...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvkk7GENhHk
 

With respect, if other "parties" want to test the machine out and make claims... fine who am i to argue? like i said the proof is in the pudding and if the machine performs well when used in a real life situation (not in a lab) then thats all that matters.


Yes we can  ...  because we know the parameters on which our arguments are based ...
and this time your car analogy is quite fitting ...
Ford are quoting the top speed of a standard Sierra cosworth    ( 150mph @200bhp )
You have posted a link of a modified more powerfull cosworth   ( 206mph @ 800bhp)

We know the performance data of a 6.6 motor from Lambs lab test data sheet ..
i.e  140cfm
We can then predict the maximum for two motors in parallel 280 cfm

Just like the 800bhp cosworth , it would take a much more powerfull motor to raise cfm to levels like 370 ....   playing around with hoses wont do that .
We can therefore consider the claims incredible .


Craigp ....   some light reading for you   :P

http://www.canavac.com/node/8

Chris Straker

  • Posts: 286
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2013, 09:27:35 am »
As Russ quite rightly says ........ what the wand end of the machine does, is all that matters to my clients  ::)roll

I have seen each machine on video with 'proof' of the best cfm readings known to man ........ I have also seen videos of a magician saw a woman into 3 bits and put her back together ...... so we all know anything is possible !! I can believe the face to face words from a very well respected & experienced carpet cleaner when he tells me what his machine was tested at, before and after mods........  they are on forums somewhere but I am not prone to filling each of my posts with 'copy & paste'.

I accept that this forum is run by a cleaning supplies company and there will be die hard fans of other equipment, if I wanted loads of back slapping, then I would only go where my kits is from !! I made mention in another thread about the word Solution being mentioned and how the venom starts, half of the critics have never even seen a Jaguar 6.6, let alone used one ...... I have demo'd mine to 3 carpet cleaners now and two of them are now ex- TM owners and the last was actually saying that the Jaguar 6.6 had more pull than his entry level TM. That is not BS but historical fact, so opinions on power are made when holding the wand and not on paper  :-*

Russ Chadd

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2013, 09:43:54 am »
I read the Cana vac website information, interesting reading for sure, the conclusion they end up with is... a single 8.4 motor gives better performance than dual motors either in parallel or series.
So if this is the case why isnt there a machine available in the UK using a single 8.4 motor?
When i was choosing my Enforcer I had the option to choose a 7.2 + 7.2 or 6.6 + 6.6, and a combination of all but ended up with two 5.7 as they were the most economical to replace and allowed me to run both motors and pump from one 13a plug.

Has an 8.4 motor been tested in wet extraction machines? can they tolerate moisture? and more importantly what is the cost of replacing them if and when they die? 

Darren O

  • Posts: 1322
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2013, 10:10:27 am »
Mod note; that's uncalled for; please moderate your own posts in future.

Thanks.

Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning

  • Posts: 178
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2013, 10:15:26 am »
Chris Starkers? Is that another pseudonym for someone? ;D
Andrew
Approved Carpet Cleaning of Flitwick
www.carpetcleaningbedfordshire.co.uk

stuart_clark

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #85 on: April 01, 2013, 10:49:12 am »
To be fair lads Chris is a nice and Genuine guy, he is maybe a bit pro solutions, but ive never herd him say anthing bad about anyone on here

Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning

  • Posts: 178
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2013, 11:00:00 am »
I wasn't dissing  Chris for one minute Stuart, he has given me some sound and genuine advice when I have asked for it, but just had to laugh at some one calling him a t1t and can't even get his name right! Pot and kettle springs to mind.
 ;D ;D
Andrew
Approved Carpet Cleaning of Flitwick
www.carpetcleaningbedfordshire.co.uk

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2013, 11:15:45 am »
I read the Cana vac website information, interesting reading for sure, the conclusion they end up with is... a single 8.4 motor gives better performance than dual motors either in parallel or series.
So if this is the case why isnt there a machine available in the UK using a single 8.4 motor?
When i was choosing my Enforcer I had the option to choose a 7.2 + 7.2 or 6.6 + 6.6, and a combination of all but ended up with two 5.7 as they were the most economical to replace and allowed me to run both motors and pump from one 13a plug.

Has an 8.4 motor been tested in wet extraction machines? can they tolerate moisture? and more importantly what is the cost of replacing them if and when they die? 

Russ , that site had some good points but you have to carefull how some of them are interrupted .
The central vac system they make is running a single 8.4 ...  so they then make  case as to why what will be better than some other systems .
You could have a 650 airwatt motor that has about 90" lift and 160cfm ( there is actually a single stage version of the 6.6 with those figures )
If you put two of those in parallel you still have 90" lift .
The point its making is that a single 8.4 has 150" lift so at the end of the working tool it will work better than that two vac system that has the high airflow but low lift .
It would be different if you had two 650airwatt motors that had say 150" lift and 120cfm in  parallel as the lift would be equal to the single 8.4 but you would benefit from the increased airflow also .
It also doesn't compare the 8.4 to a twin series setup in that article .

The 8.4 is about £270 over here ,  in the states its selling for as little as 150 dollars in some places ,  it is a very good motor , 150" lift ( although iv read some had tested it at only 130 or so ,  I has 145cfm .... about 680 airwatts .  Amp draw is also relatively low .
 

Robin Ray

Re: Nice Service
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2013, 11:25:24 am »
There is a guy in the states called John Cobb who is currently in the process of making a twin 8.4 motor porty. Should be interesting! Interestingly he is planing on using it in series.

The fact remains it is what happens at the business end of the hose what matters.

Russ would you say your Enforcer has better/equal performance to the 6.6 machines at the wand even on long hose runs? what is the longest hose run you have used so far?


By the way I don't see how personal insults and name calling can be relevant, its a bit immature and sad really. ???

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2013, 11:31:12 am »
As Russ quite rightly says ........ what the wand end of the machine does, is all that matters to my clients  ::)roll

I have seen each machine on video with 'proof' of the best cfm readings known to man ........ I have also seen videos of a magician saw a woman into 3 bits and put her back together ...... so we all know anything is possible !! I can believe the face to face words from a very well respected & experienced carpet cleaner when he tells me what his machine was tested at, before and after mods........  they are on forums somewhere but I am not prone to filling each of my posts with 'copy & paste'.


Chris ...  I not questioning how good your machine can clean or even how good two 6.6 motors are .... im am simply saying that the max cfm they can make is what the motors can produce .... playing around with internal hose will not increase that figure.
I know what post you are referring to on another forum ... and i have copied and pasted it here before ...
Once again .... around 280cfm is the max  .....  370 is BS .

If you want another independent opinion perhaps ask the question on an American forum ( TMF ) for example .
Ask the following ....  My supplier took in a jag and measured 270cfm  .... he then fitted bigger exhaust hoses and measured it again at 370 ... is this possible ?
... Watch all the Americans laugh so hard .
 

Russ Chadd

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #90 on: April 01, 2013, 11:44:41 am »
Yes i agree Robin... people who make insulting comments should be kicked... maybe its time to "Clean it up" here  ;D
Ok... looks like we are never going to fully agree on this whole Jag topic so rather than argue the point lets move on...

The Enforcer... it has x 1 1650w 3 stage 5.7 motor and x 1 1400w 3 stage 5.7 motor

Both motors are in series

To be fair i have only tested the machine using 50' of hose, i kind of abandoned the whole van mount idea a while back as its easier to move the machine from the vehicle to the front or rear door of the property and simply use shorter lengths of hoses.
At 50' using 2" hose the wand isnt as noisy as my jag. well that's to be expected seeing as the jag is optimized for airflow performance, the main difference is this... when you are wanding the wand really locks down tighter to the carpet... the higher lift really does help to leave fabric drier in my opinion..

Now im not convinced a single 8.4 motor would be able to out perform my current setup...


Robin Ray

Re: Nice Service
« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2013, 11:55:46 am »
Looking at the information john has pasted it looks as if the single 8.4 will give performance just shy of two motors in series. It looks as if the only reason they are not recommended is heat build up and possible motor failure. This cant be a major problem though as there are loads of machines out there using a series set up and they don't report abnormal motor failures on here.

Radek Jablonski

  • Posts: 956
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2013, 12:05:41 pm »
, i kind of abandoned the whole van mount idea a while back as its easier to move the machine from the vehicle to the front or rear door of the property and simply use shorter lengths of hoses.

Van mounted systems save a lot of time on filing and emptying, loading and unloading machine, pull the hoses form the hose reels sound just easier.

the higher lift really does help to leave fabric drier in my opinion..


think the same, how people can say that this is airflow which dries the carpet, B...S...., highest possible airflow on any machine would not dry the carpet much without good lift. Placing the wand on the carpet you are closing the wand hole, higher lift will make better airflow then.
If I decide to work your way It would be definitely Enforcer.

Russ Chadd

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2013, 12:22:40 pm »
Looking at the information john has pasted it looks as if the single 8.4 will give performance just shy of two motors in series. It looks as if the only reason they are not recommended is heat build up and possible motor failure. This cant be a major problem though as there are loads of machines out there using a series set up and they don't report abnormal motor failures on here.

Have you seen the price of a single 8.4? £250 + VAT that's a lot of dough to be lashing out when the thing pops! at least with x 2 5.7's or x 2 6.6's the chances of both motors blowing at the same time is going to be unusual plus the replacement cost is going to be around £170+VAT

Radek... most of the time i just remove the machine, a proper van mount requires a water tank of at least 200 litres (thats 200 extra kg's to carry) then all the extra hoses (more weight) then a good quality 13a extension cable reel or reels if you are running your scorpion.
I would rather take 5 mins to remove the machine than sacrifice much needed performance...

Robin Ray

Re: Nice Service
« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2013, 12:34:36 pm »
I  agree £250 is a lot to splash out. Perhaps when they are used a bit more they will come down in price.

A twin 8.4 machine would be imminence though.

Radek Jablonski

  • Posts: 956
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2013, 12:44:07 pm »
btw. just was looking on Mytee Escape, think thay have 4 x 6.6 engines.
Two in parallel and two in series, double lift comparing to the strom or Jag, and thay claim only 325CFM, so, is not possible that Storm or Jag has more than this.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #96 on: April 01, 2013, 12:56:35 pm »
btw. just was looking on Mytee Escape, think thay have 4 x 6.6 engines.
Two in parallel and two in series, double lift comparing to the strom or Jag, and thay claim only 325CFM, so, is not possible that Storm or Jag has more than this.

Radek , the Escape is using four three stage motors made by Electro motors from the USA . They are the same company that make the motors used in the Enforcer ...

Im not sure what model is used ... it could be four of the 1600w version .
although i believe they have an 1800w version too ...


Radek Jablonski

  • Posts: 956
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2013, 01:02:09 pm »
thx, good to know

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2013, 01:03:35 pm »
Yes i agree Robin... people who make insulting comments should be kicked... maybe its time to "Clean it up" here  ;D
Ok... looks like we are never going to fully agree on this whole Jag topic so rather than argue the point lets move on...

The Enforcer... it has x 1 1650w 3 stage 5.7 motor and x 1 1400w 3 stage 5.7 motor

Both motors are in series

To be fair i have only tested the machine using 50' of hose, i kind of abandoned the whole van mount idea a while back as its easier to move the machine from the vehicle to the front or rear door of the property and simply use shorter lengths of hoses.
At 50' using 2" hose the wand isnt as noisy as my jag. well that's to be expected seeing as the jag is optimized for airflow performance, the main difference is this... when you are wanding the wand really locks down tighter to the carpet... the higher lift really does help to leave fabric drier in my opinion..

Now im not convinced a single 8.4 motor would be able to out perform my current setup...



Did they give any reason why they cant just fit two 1650w motors ....
I mean is it because as a manufacturer they have by law to stick to 13amps per cord  ?
I just cant see 15or 16 amp on a cord tripping switches ....  most of the time we are on 20amp circuits .
You could try replacing the 1400w with a 1650 when the time comes i suppose .  

Russ Chadd

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Nice Service
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2013, 01:06:43 pm »
So in your opinion John

What would be the best motor configuration for a HWE machine...?
Bearing in mind... performance, price and reliability?  

The Enforcer motors were chosen to keep within the single 13 amps... if the machine had x 2 of the 1650 w motors would this increase the performance enough to justify having to use two sockets?