Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: richywilts on February 01, 2012, 07:43:36 pm
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Two staff have gone now the last one is trying it on saying he wants a third of whatever he does for me!!! He can hit between 2-300 a day which fair play is quite a lot I've offered him 18grand a year as long as he hits targets which may mean working Saturdays to hit them.
I will not back down I've offered a fair wage for a window cleaner I think
Are alarm bells ringing????
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Whats wrong with a third?
So he does £300 one day and you want £200 of it? What more d'you want, blood? ;D
What target have you set him to turnover if he is to earn £18.000 a year?
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Two staff have gone now the last one is trying it on saying he wants a third of whatever he does for me!!! He can hit between 2-300 a day which fair play is quite a lot I've offered him 18grand a year as long as he hits targets which may mean working Saturdays to hit them.
I will not back down I've offered a fair wage for a window cleaner I think
Are alarm bells ringing????
Don't panic, he's seen your others disappear and he's now seeing what he can get......wouldn't you in his shoes ;D
Is the £18k just a straight payment, no bonuses/incentives etc?
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nowt wrong with that wadge richy
a very good wadge tbh your right not to back down hes an empolyee not a subby or co owner
stick to your guns sheriff! ;D
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We basically agreed the other week what he would like as a wage what he needs to live on etc, I wouldn't think of putting anyone else on this week but he's a bloody good grafter.
I think if he worked 8-5 he would at a push and prices rises prob hit 275 a day day in day out
I was thinking of target bout 1300-1400
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Gonna be some tumbleweed blowing through that unit of yours soon. :o
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I would sit him down and explain he is on a decent wage for what he does. I would also show him the other costs that you face as a business. He may be thinking "I do the same as him but only get £x when he gets £xxx". If he understands that you have extensive overheads he is more likely to realise he isn't being taken advantage of. You should also point out there are lots of people who would quickly take his place.
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Wats tumbleweed??
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I know employing staff brings additional costs and overheads, but youre looking to make £1000 a week from one member of staff. Are you being realistic here? If that's the case all you'd need to do is employ two guys and you'd be on £100,000 a year. I know you've tried that and it didn't work for you. But perhaps thats where you're going wrong Richy. Unless someone would like to point out how Ive misunderstood this situation.
By the way I agree £18,00 a year is a fair wage but not if you are asking him to turnover £70,000 a year it isn't.
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Wats tumbleweed??
Think of the old cowboy films where the straw blows down the street :)
I don't think you should back down, but maybe offer a 3 monthly incentive, a % of what he brings in over that 3 months. Gives him the incentive to put in good days, and if tasty enough should keep him in the job :)
Have you done a job search in your area to see what others pay their staff, always useful to know this in case :)
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Two staff have gone now the last one is trying it on saying he wants a third of whatever he does for me!!! He can hit between 2-300 a day which fair play is quite a lot I've offered him 18grand a year as long as he hits targets which may mean working Saturdays to hit them.
I will not back down I've offered a fair wage for a window cleaner I think
Are alarm bells ringing????
if your happy to pay him a third then no problem, if your not then it is.
You run the company not him Richy and I would insure he knows this. If you have to start again then do.
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
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loads of jobs out there at £6.05 an hour tell him ;)
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I know employing staff brings additional costs and overheads, but youre looking to make £1000 a week from one member of staff. Are you being realistic here? If that's the case all you'd need to do is employ two guys and you'd be on £100,000 a year. I know you've tried that and it didn't work for you. But perhaps thats where you're going wrong Richy. Unless someone would like to point out how Ive misunderstood this situation.
By the way I agree £18,00 a year is a fair wage but not if you are asking him to turnover £70,000 a year it isn't.
The way we used to work (and perhaps we were wrong....who knows ???)
That for example if a staffie grossed 70k per year for us, we would expect the overheads against that to be in the region of 28k, so pay, extra NI, running vehicles etc etc. You would be hard pushed to get 70k out of one person, due to almost 6 weeks hols, sickness etc.
If you have the gross turnover then £18k as a basic salary is good, but as I said I would also offer incentives to make it more of a carrot :)
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I'd like to shake the hand of someone who can do 70K a year ;D
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Hi sorry but I just don't believe a word you say, I know most will shout, but sorry I'm just ot having it
That is all
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I'd like to shake the hand of someone who can do 70K a year ;D
They wouldn't have time to take it off their pole to shake yours ;D
and don't take that the wrong way :P
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Hope this link works, for all those that think £18k is poope money :)
http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk/listjob.aspx?sessionid=a7dbb26b-4b15-406c-ba8b-aea726d6c00e&pid=4&sid=349472468&p=1&so=1
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Tell him you will pay him 20% on work over 5 days at 1000 TURN OVER .( 200 a day) 25% on all work between 1000 to and 1500 and 30% on all sales between 1501 and over per week.But if he misses any days due to weather on sick the target the same as a 5 day week. You all score together but he must also loose if you loose income.If he works weekend use the same payment as the week but on a daily target. tell he can earn 30% THIS WAY, ??? ::) ::) sO HE WILL IN FAcT ONLY EARN 30% on the amount over £300 per day.
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I'd like to shake the hand of someone who can do 70K a year ;D
They wouldn't have time to take it off their pole to shake yours ;D
and don't take that the wrong way :P
;D ;D
Ooer missus!
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Tell him you will pay him 20% on work over 5 days at 1000.( 200 a day) 25% on all work between 1000 to and 1500 and 30% on all sales between 1501 and over per week.But if he misses any days due to weather on sick the target the same as a 5 day week. You all score together but he must also loose if you loose income.If he works weekend use the same payment as the week but on a daily target. tell he can earn 30% THIS WAY, ??? ::) ::) sO HE WILL IN FAcT ONLY EARN 30% on the amount over £300 per day.
I would go down that route. Not saying Id use those exact figures but I would offer a rising scale of pay once certain targets were achieved. You need to offer an incentive. He'll be on his way soon if you dont. If he's as good as you say he is he'll be scheming that once the warmer days come along.
If you get this £70,000 of commercial work you were talking about you'll need someone to do it.
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Helen do you mean incentives on top of 18000 a year, he came in for a 7quid an hour job based on 40 hours initially so it's a nice pay rise
My estimates wer based on 48 weeks a year being worked
1300 divide between 5 days = 260
1300 divide between 6 days = 216
1300 x 48 weeks = 62,500
It may look great hitting these figures but doing the work is only half the job collecting payments etc still need to be accounted for
Most window cleaning jobs I see are between 6-8 quid an hour
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I'd like to shake the hand of someone who can do 70K a year ;D
They wouldn't have time to take it off their pole to shake yours ;D
and don't take that the wrong way :P
;D ;D
Ooer missus!
Going now before this all gets out of hand one way or the other. ;D
Richy, go get a couple of beers, watch some TV and worry about it tomorrow morning :)
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Hi sorry but I just don't believe a word you say, I know most will shout, but sorry I'm just ot having it
That is all
What don't you believe??
And I maybe able to enlighten you on your issues with me
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Helen do you mean incentives on top of 18000 a year, he came in for a 7quid an hour job based on 40 hours initially so it's a nice pay rise
My estimates wer based on 48 weeks a year being worked
1300 divide between 5 days = 260
1300 divide between 6 days = 216
1300 x 48 weeks = 62,500
It may look great hitting these figures but doing the work is only half the job collecting payments etc still need to be accounted for
Most window cleaning jobs I see are between 6-8 quid an hour
Ok just caught me. So the £18k has just recently been agreed (before the others left I take it)
Does he go out collecting too?
Personally if I felt this chap was the right guy to help you take your business forward I would put in an incentive plan for him too.
Is he that good that maybe 6 months down the line you could make him lead window cleaner?
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ritchy a tenner an hour ideally
you really cant expect him collect aswell
or sub it all to me ;D
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It's not been agreed no that's what if offered him tonite n he's turned it down wanting a third,
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It's not been agreed no that's what if offered him tonite n he's turned it down wanting a third,
:o :o :o 18k a year is a great wage. Hes lucky to have an employer like you, people are struggling for work thats why most wages are sh*t at the the moment.
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Richy do you count chickens or something?
You see a couple of weeks back the whole of your team only had 67000 between the lot of you. now one guy can do all that work ???
So are you counting chickens before they hatch or something because if you are on the tools as well you would be turning over 140,000 a year - well into the vat zone. I'm really really confused.
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
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We had approx 67000 of domestic work in value if all completed on time etc
We also have prob 10000-15000 of commercial don't know exact figure
Yeah I was overmanned considerably as we lost a lot of work When computers were stolen etc and never recovered it
Being a nice guy I tried my hardest to keep them all on but wasn't viable
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
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It's not been agreed no that's what if offered him tonite n he's turned it down wanting a third,
Ok. I'm tired so my figures may not quite add up ;D
So you have offered him £70 before tax (rounded up from £69.24) per day. I've based this on 5 days a week 52 weeks per year. (you need to take his hols into account here aswell)
Over 5 days you would like him to bring into the business £260 per day.
That is your stumbling block, it's too ambitious for one person. Or maybe you work together to bring £260 in? If so £18k is about right.
I would have a good think tonight about it.
IF he is the person to take you forward what have you to lose by offering a bonus/incentive.
IF he isn't stick to your guns with the £18k only.
Keep us informed :)
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
You have e-mail :)
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Hi sorry but I just don't believe a word you say, I know most will shout, but sorry I'm just ot having it
That is all
What don't you believe??
And I maybe able to enlighten you on your issues with me
dont worry richy,londoncleaner never makes sense,allways talking a load of poo :P
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That is your stumbling block, it's too ambitious for one person.
My point all along. Silk purse sows ear.
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
So since oct you have lost £33000 a month in work because your computers were stolen, surely you had a rough idea where the work was
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This lad does 250 a day quite easily I'm looking to increase prices by 1-2quid a job as prices haven't gone up in 3-4 years so average day of 20-25 jobs should yield an extra 30quid a day hence how I think 260 is an achievable figure
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
So since oct you have lost £33000 a month in work because your computers were stolen, surely you had a rough idea where the work was
No not all because computers were stolen had loads canvassed and it's turned out to be crap work n full of messers we have dumped a lot of them plus lost a few to cancellations
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18k isnt a lot if hes earning a lot more and you expect him to do a 6 day week,i was earning that 18 years ago when i was 18 for a normal monday to friday job!
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Going away from the original point now.
What's happened has happened, let it go.
Taking your business forward starts tomorrow :)
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18k isnt a lot if hes earning a lot more and you expect him to do a 6 day week,i was earning that 18 years ago when i was 18 for a normal monday to friday job!
What did you do for a living then and who for? Were they a large or small company?
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18k isnt a lot if hes earning a lot more and you expect him to do a 6 day week,i was earning that 18 years ago when i was 18 for a normal monday to friday job!
What did you do for a living then and who for? Were they a large or small company?
they were a large company landscape gardening!
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if you have all that work richy and 70k a year commercial working coming in,i think you need him.put him on 20k a year!
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
So since oct you have lost £33000 a month in work because your computers were stolen, surely you had a rough idea where the work was
GOOD POST THERE M8
how the hell do u lose £33k of custies pcm.
i know u said break-in & messers but honestly £33k of custies, im assuming u meant £3300 , if so thats still catastrophic percentages in a numbers game business.
m8 imho u need to get off your pc/mac and sit in a dark room and really get your head straight.
u are destined for a very dark place the way you are going m8 ( hopefully not )
trades our way are £150pr day and this fella seems like he is up to the task ( ur opinion by the way )
if he leaves , which he well may ,you have to clean em yourself m8.
so ask yourself this?
do i pay him slightly more to play MD ,or get rid trim my round for me and get back on track running your business your way.
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18k isnt a lot if hes earning a lot more and you expect him to do a 6 day week,i was earning that 18 years ago when i was 18 for a normal monday to friday job!
What did you do for a living then and who for? Were they a large or small company?
they were a large company landscape gardening!
Being a large company then they could afford to do it. :)
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Look the bloke has you and the operation sussed out,he knows you and your business guru and god knows who else you have on the "board of directors" just talk big and do nowt.
He is telling you he will be the slave but he`ll have to be a well paid one. If you don`t think this fella is worth £100 a day then just shut the door and turn the lights out now.
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Look the bloke has you and the operation sussed out,he knows you and your business guru and god knows who else you have on the "board of directors" just talk big and do nowt.
He is telling you he will be the slave but he`ll have to be a well paid one. If you don`t think this fella is worth £100 a day then just shut the door and turn the lights out now.
But he might just go and take all his work,he might be the monkey but hes the one on the tools earning the cash and could easily start up on his own.
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I have read alot of Richys posts recently, and I am sorry but I have to call bullpoop on most of it.
Richy, I think you just post crap that comes into your head and have nowhere near the amount of work you profess to have, if any at all.
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C'mon you gotta hand it to richy the threads are 100% entertainment ;D
Darran
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
So since oct you have lost £33000 a month in work because your computers were stolen, surely you had a rough idea where the work was
GOOD POST THERE M8
how the hell do u lose £33k of custies pcm.
i know u said break-in & messers but honestly £33k of custies, im assuming u meant £3300 , if so thats still catastrophic percentages in a numbers game business.
m8 imho u need to get off your pc/mac and sit in a dark room and really get your head straight.
u are destined for a very dark place the way you are going m8 ( hopefully not )
trades our way are £150pr day and this fella seems like he is up to the task ( ur opinion by the way )
if he leaves , which he well may ,you have to clean em yourself m8.
so ask yourself this?
do i pay him slightly more to play MD ,or get rid trim my round for me and get back on track running your business your way.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT SOME PEOPLE TALK IN TERMS OF £.. PER MONTH AND OTHERS £..PER YEAR AND SOME PEOPLE SWITCH BETWEEN THE TWO IN THE SAME POST DOUBLE CONFUSING.
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Richy, tell me all about VAT - you must be an expert.
I think your guy has hit those figures on occasions - many of us do. I believe you haven't a clue how much work you have or haven't got and put in figures on here from the top of your head (or much lower down) I'm guessing you are factoring work in that you simply don't have but could have if every quote you have done comes true plus all the other jobs you think you might get. How can anyone possibly forget where thirty thousand pounds worth of work went?
You need help son.
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Richy,
In a previous topic you mention you turnover was approx £67000 and you employed 3 lads to achieve this.
On the figures you are quoting tonight, it seems you now expect him alone to cover the work of 3 lads or do you intend working day in day out alongside him?
I'm just going off what he can do a day,before break in in October we had prob £100,000 worth of work which was including newly canvassed work but lost a lot of that coz idiots and during break in computers were stolen, always hoped to rebuild back up and not lay staff off but they left before I had a chance
So since oct you have lost £33000 a month in work because your computers were stolen, surely you had a rough idea where the work was
GOOD POST THERE M8
how the hell do u lose £33k of custies pcm.
i know u said break-in & messers but honestly £33k of custies, im assuming u meant £3300 , if so thats still catastrophic percentages in a numbers game business.
m8 imho u need to get off your pc/mac and sit in a dark room and really get your head straight.
u are destined for a very dark place the way you are going m8 ( hopefully not )
trades our way are £150pr day and this fella seems like he is up to the task ( ur opinion by the way )
if he leaves , which he well may ,you have to clean em yourself m8.
so ask yourself this?
do i pay him slightly more to play MD ,or get rid trim my round for me and get back on track running your business your way.
I may have figures slightly messed up I'm trying to go off memory I think we were nearing about 10-11000 every 6 weeks which may have been about 90k a year but that was including commercial works too Which at that point were prob around 7-8k a year
So it isn't a loss of 33k ,more in region of 15k which is about a third of all canvassed work as we had canvasser for approx ten weeks and he averaged 450 a week
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did you pay VAT? No? who cooks your books for you Richy?
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Richy, tell me all about VAT - you must be an expert.
I think your guy has hit those figures on occasions - many of us do. I believe you haven't a clue how much work you have or haven't got and put in figures on here from the top of your head (or much lower down) I'm guessing you are factoring work in that you simply don't have but could have if every quote you have done comes true plus all the other jobs you think you might get. How can anyone possibly forget where thirty thousand pounds worth of work went?
You need help son.
Il admit I'm not 100% as Chris used to deal with all the work etc who did my admin and when we changed over to round pro it's a complicated software programme not like window cleaner pro which u can forecast figures etc
Pop down my unit one day and I will show you all the daily logs andy has done on his own 8-4 recently
I know what value he is too me he obv thinks its more, I'm trying to be realistic as an employer I can't afford to pay more than 18gramd I think that's a fair wage for someone off the dole last year with no real trade behind them or skill
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did you pay VAT? No? who cooks your books for you Richy?
No I haven't paid vat coz start of tax year beginning April 2010 I didn't turnover massive amounts of money, and I've had weeks after break in etc where didn't work, plus we lost a 3 grand debt list when computer stolen so I know il be under it for this last year.
When I talk in value of work it's not what's been cleaned what I forecast to turnover over next 12 months
That's reads wrong the forecast is from the six weekly work I have times by 8.5 cleans a year,at minute I prob have just over 7.5 grands worth of work every 6 weeks
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HI M8 ( TRULY ;) )
GET A F**KING GRIP OF YOURSELF.
you have no idea of what u have and have not got.
get off your MD arse and make your business a viable and most importantly a seeable business .
i can speculate till the cows come home but : X13 DIVIDE BY 12 IS THE ONLY NUMBERS THAT MATTERS TO ME ON MY 4WKLY BASIS , DO UR NUMBERS M8
my last post on this one m8
HEAD UP, SHOVE BRUSH AROUND , WIPE SILLS, TIS REALLY SIMPLE REALLY!!!!
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like i said your counting work you haven't got ::)
I'm seriously considering a break in this year followed by amnesia just before my next tax return ;D
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I have approx 7.5 K at moment to clean every 6 weeks this equates to 8.6 cleans a year which is roughly 65k a year on domestics that's what I meant about forecasting annual turnover not what I predict to turnover from gaining new work
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lol talking in riddles now .. never known such a complicated setup, i remember ages ago you said you don't really like cleaning windows so your obviously gna have to keep him and pay him 100 quid a day or what ever if you don't like doing it
what happened to this shop u was setting up?
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i truly think richy is a bit bonkers and a bad business man!!.......but entertaining!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
talk about overcomplicating a simple business!!!
all speculative,high overheads and very little profit.
time for a rethink!!but you never listen to any of us anyway richy!!!
i think your a car crash waiting to happen mate.
dont take it the wrong way richy......just my opinion. ;D ;D ;D ;D
regards
dazmond
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lol talking in riddles now .. never known such a complicated setup, i remember ages ago you said you don't really like cleaning windows so your obviously gna have to keep him and pay him 100 quid a day or what ever if you don't like doing it
what happened to this shop u was setting up?
Hello Dave how are you bud? You still on the glass mate?
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Rich, seriously mate what you need to do is sit down and work out a) your total income. b) your total expenditure. Then deduct b for a. Then you will have c) your total gross profit. You know the old saying turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. Your profit is the only important figure in all of this. Thats the figure that feeds your missus and kids mate. If you don't already know this then working it at as soon as possible will put you in a more positive frame of mind. If you aren't turning a profit then you need to work out how you can lower your expenditure. Lately I have got my monthly personal expenditure down from about £1300 down to about £800. My wife is using her wage to take some of that outgoing from me for a few months so I can start up.
I wouldn't come on here and discuss your turnover mate. I don't even discuss mine with THE Missus ;)
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An employee brings in £200-£300 a day? Everyday?
Having been an employer/contractor, yeah right. Pigs fly over the moon each night aslo.
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An employee brings in £200-£300 a day? Everyday?
Having been an employer/contractor, yeah right. Pigs fly over the moon each night aslo.
What makes you say that Ross?
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i;ve had this happen to me a couple of times richy. never let yourself think someone cant be replaced. there's always someone better out there.
Your WC is trying to hold you to ransom here to get more money. £18000 is a fantastic wage for a WC. The only answer you can give him is... £18000 is what I have worked out the business can afford to pay you. if you believe you can get a better wage elsewhere then you should think about leaving.
you can never let a staff member hold you to ransom like that. after all you've been through you would hope for more loyalty. and its a massive recession as well. i;ve told my staff nobody is getting a pay rise until the recession is over.
its a doddle to replace a window cleaner. you can train a guy up in 4 weeks flat to hit the targets your current man is, and you can pay him minimum wage, and you can start with a clean sheet with him too.
for a staff member to believe they should have 33% of the daily takings is insane.
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An employee brings in £200-£300 a day? Everyday?
Having been an employer/contractor, yeah right. Pigs fly over the moon each night aslo.
It wouldn't be worth employing if they didnt
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Who on here does £200-£300 a day, everyday?
Not one single person will.
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Who on here does £200-£300 a day, everyday?
Not one single person will.
you dont :o :o :o :o
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
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did you pay VAT? No? who cooks your books for you Richy?
No I haven't paid vat coz start of tax year beginning April 2010 I didn't turnover massive amounts of money, and I've had weeks after break in etc where didn't work, plus we lost a 3 grand debt list when computer stolen so I know il be under it for this last year.
When I talk in value of work it's not what's been cleaned what I forecast to turnover over next 12 months
That's reads wrong the forecast is from the six weekly work I have times by 8.5 cleans a year,at minute I prob have just over 7.5 grands worth of work every 6 weeks
Richy this is only £1250 a week. CALL HIS BLUFF, KEEP OR GET RID AND GET IN THE VAN YOURSELF.
Its £250 a day 5 days a week or £300 4 days aweek. We are coming into the better weather now, do your own round for 3 months and then make a decision. Seriously mate Get out on the tools again its what 99% of the rest of us do.
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Who on here does £200-£300 a day, everyday?
Not one single person will.
you dont :o :o :o :o
;D ;D
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
come on averages mean nothing that takes all the mega money wages into consideration which tops up the lower incomes its a load of rubbish.
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Richy,
From all of this it does seem to the outsider that you don't have a clear idea on how your business is trading. Like colley said, you really need to sit down and work out your true figures.
Before you can estimate what your guy is worth to you, you need to have a costing spreadsheet which outlines all overheads (include 18K wage) and all income, this will allow you to get an idea of your profit.
You also need to be clear what you want to achieve and make this realistic, focus on what business you currently have and how this can be run efficiently and profitable. You really need to stop with the million different ideas you have and concentrate all of your thinking time in to this. Then when you are happy the business model is working and you are making profit with good staff and low levels of staff turnover, you can mess about with other ideas.
All of the time spent on this post alone by yourself could have been spent by you sitting down and getting a real understanding of your business. You need a business plan, I would suggest that you get an outside eye to look in at your business and help you to see things clearer. Sometimes there is nothing better than an outsiders view.
I would suggest you contact your local business link or similar and explain you need a business mentor to help you.
Hope this helps
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Qualified electrician = £18000 for my son. :o
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
come on averages mean nothing that takes all the mega money wages into consideration which tops up the lower incomes its a load of rubbish.
£18K is £350 a week and he will clearly know how much he is making for his employer. How long does it take for the penny to drop? Then he will be off.
£350 is not a realistic wage to pay. Its not even £10 an hour. My wife earns £14.68 an hour as an admin assistant in the NHS. All she has to do is answer the phones in a nice warm office, plus holiday pay and a pension.
I believe that if you think you will keep a good man on less than ten pounds an hour you are only fooling yourself. Even the little Polish girls charge £12 an hour as cleaners.
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
on what planet is this average wage, because it is not in the UK.
My wife went to uni for 4 years and doesnt get that amount yet in second year of working, so maybe looking at wild figures from people that survery the rich is not the best place to look for real figures
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this is entertaining but there is definately a smell of poope in the air ;D
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Wats tumbleweed??
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1328174906_Tumbleweed.gif)
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Richy,
Your paying him £70 per day to clean £260 as it is, he wants a third of turnover which would increase his wage to £86 per day!
If you were to pay this but also tell him -
Down days due to equipment or van failure = No Pay
Sickness = No Pay
Holidays = No Pay
It wouldn't be that bad a deal for you BUT the fact he is demanding this would stop me from agreeing to it because if you give in to this I guarantee he'll be back in a few months with new demands.
Tell him its £18k or the dole and don't go down the road of explaining your overheads to him, its none of his business its yours!
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
on what planet is this average wage, because it is not in the UK.
My wife went to uni for 4 years and doesnt get that amount yet in second year of working, so maybe looking at wild figures from people that survery the rich is not the best place to look for real figures
Depends where you live I suppose. Where are you?
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at the minute hes on £7 an hour which was agreed when he joined some 6 months ago, so ive offered him a fairly decent wage, this lad has made a point of just wanting to know what hes going to get each month, but then wants a third which is stupid coz what if we have a down day or a down week
for all the people saying i havent got a clue etc il admit iv took my eye of the ball a little but taking steps now to correct it with the two staff leaving we have a new accountant in place, im waiting to put all my database bk on window cleaner pro coz the new software is too time consuming and difficult to run for a window cleaning business
its not been an ideal year to say the least but its being stripped back and i will be back on tools etc im trying to be positive were coming into a nice time of year got some nice contracts in the pipeline, the domestic round will be getting refined and price increases will be getting introduced and planning on getting our good rounds more compact.
i agree a business plan needs to be introduced and kept too or il will be facing ruin.
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Blimey, that's the first post from Richy that actually makes any sense at all! You're getting there. The important thing in my mind is that you get back on the tools as soon as possible and keep track of everything. Then, you can have a very lucrative business.
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but then wants a third which is stupid coz what if we have a down day or a down week
He wouldn't get paid
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that's the drawback of employing. can't be helped just get on with it. Same as when he takes his holidays - richy is going to have to work his nuts off to keep up whilst matey sits on the beach. ;D
Turn it around the other way and Matey is obviously a bit miffed if he's turning over £1300 a week for six days Whilst Richy swings about on his chair chatting on ciu paying £350 a week. Can't see it lasting much longer especially if he logs on here one night!
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but then wants a third which is stupid coz what if we have a down day or a down week
He wouldn't get paid
I dont think you can do this because if he is employed (which he would have to be) he is entitled to holiday,ssp, and all the trimmings. The only way I see to do it where Richy is the definate winner is low basic and bonus for hitting targets. wages paid at the end of the month so you can look back on month and if we have been frozen off work for two weeks you only need to pay the monthly basic. the bonus would be paid out after the monthly total was hit otherwise you could pay out bonus on week 1 then be off work for 2 still paying his basic= Richy out of pocket. SINCE WHEN DO MCDONALDS OR A GARAGE OR ANY OTHER BUSINESS DIVVY UP THE TAKINGS WITH STAFF? AND 33% OF TURNOVER? NEVERMIND PROFIT? I DONT THINK SO.
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First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.
Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.
Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.
I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.
You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.
So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.
If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.
Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.
These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.
At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.
I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.
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First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.
Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.
Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.
I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.
You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.
So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.
If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.
Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.
These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.
At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.
I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.
Seems we are on the same page. I dont employ but if I did this is what I would do.
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First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.
Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.
Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.
I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.
You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.
So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.
If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.
Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.
These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.
At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.
I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.
good post mate thanks
what sort of bonus structure do you have in place
he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads
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First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.
Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.
Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.
I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.
You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.
So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.
If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.
Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.
These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.
At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.
I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.
good post mate thanks
what sort of bonus structure do you have in place
he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads
well whoever he is working for is an idiot or he is lying? at 40% after diesel for the day etc the round owner will be earning absolutely nothing out of your ex employee or close to it
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The bonus is paid at 30% of any work compleated minus £1000 per month.
So for example in January they have a turnover for the company of £900 because of bad weather, then they just get their basic salary, then in febuary they have a turnover of £1200, then they get their basic salary for the first £1000 and 30% on the remaining £200 = £60
This is the model I use, and all the staff are happy with it.
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First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.
Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.
Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.
I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.
You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.
So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.
If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.
Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.
These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.
At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.
I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.
good post mate thanks
what sort of bonus structure do you have in place
he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads
well whoever he is working for is an idiot or he is lying? at 40% after diesel for the day etc the round owner will be earning absolutely nothing out of your ex employee or close to it
I totally agree, this guy is now earning less than his staff, it would be better if he just downsized on the work and still earn the same amount of money, but for less effort.
Its not really rocket science
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??? £1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.
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??? £1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.
sorry you are right, it works on a weekly figure of £1000 per week divided by 12 months = £4333 per month
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Richy your business plan and cash flow forecast needs to be your bible. Especially with a business model your size. The chances are you can get away with it if all you needed to pay for was, van insurance, public liability, a few squeegee blades and some soap. The truth is though you need to know you wage bill, your rent and rates on the unit, your utility bills, the cost to run your vehicles. Every penny of what your business will cost itself the key here is itself and not you.
I don't care what anyone else says on here if you've got a business plan and cash flow forecast and you stick to them to the letter. I bet you can double in size every year if you want to. Even if your loosing money at the moment sitting down and sorting it out sooner rather than later is the best way. Trust me I left it too late and ended up having to get a job and borrowing nearly £10k to pay debts off because I kept on carrying on regardless thinking I would get there in the end.
If you want me to help you do a business plan and cash flow forecast with you I'd be more than happy to.
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??? £1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.
sorry you are right, it works on a weekly figure of £1000 per week divided by 12 months = £4333 per month
Of course ;D Oh God not another one!
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??? £1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.
sorry you are right, it works on a weekly figure of £1000 per week divided by 12 months = £4333 per month
Of course ;D Oh God not another one!
unlike you dave, I don't have disasters following me all over the place, all of my equipment works, all the time, when I crash a van, I still carry on working with the back up vechicle supplier straightaway by the insurance company, and having a employee cleaning £1000 a week is very realistic.
or then again that normally only happens in La La land ::)
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£7 an hour is fine in my opinion. All he is doing is a manual labour job. It takes a week max to get wfp up to scratch and after that its just repetitive work like any other labouring job. He doesnt have to do anything other than clean the windows.
Youre the one getting the work, doing the quotes, sorting out the books, and pricing etc.
Everyone keeps going on about how much he makes you in a day, but a large part of that is the quality, well priced compact work that you have set on his lap. If your round was not as good, he could still be working flat out all day but only take £150, and then he'd probably be happy with £7 an hour.
there is no skill or risk in what he does for you. From the sounds of things he has a good attitude i.e turns up on time and does the work requested. that is not rocket science, and should be expected from anyone you employ. if he continues to kick up a fuss, just give him an extra tenner a day if he completes all the work set. that shouldnt dent your profits too much but should also keep him happy.
payin him more money wont solve anything, he may just up and quit in a few months anyway for a completely different reason anyway
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£7 an hour is fine in my opinion. All he is doing is a manual labour job. It takes a week max to get wfp up to scratch and after that its just repetitive work like any other labouring job. He doesnt have to do anything other than clean the windows.
Youre the one getting the work, doing the quotes, sorting out the books, and pricing etc.
Everyone keeps going on about how much he makes you in a day, but a large part of that is the quality, well priced compact work that you have set on his lap. If your round was not as good, he could still be working flat out all day but only take £150, and then he'd probably be happy with £7 an hour.
there is no skill or risk in what he does for you. From the sounds of things he has a good attitude i.e turns up on time and does the work requested. that is not rocket science, and should be expected from anyone you employ. if he continues to kick up a fuss, just give him an extra tenner a day if he completes all the work set. that shouldnt dent your profits too much but should also keep him happy.
payin him more money wont solve anything, he may just up and quit in a few months anyway for a completely different reason anyway
well said that man. totally agree.
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its an employers market at the moment
as above,its manual labour and forget targets and daily rates
You have agreed a salary with him and thats that-nothing else to add
If he doesnt think that his salary is enough-suggest that he try his luck back out on the job market
Who runs your business??
There are plenty of hard working guys(and gals)desperate for monthly income out there especially if he gets the luxury of taking van home etc....
18k is a good wage in current circumstances
You could get a trainee via the job centre for a lot less,you can drive the van and the goverment would pay part of their salary
Time to call the shots cos it sounds like his gonna jump ship anyway(esp.if he logs onto here and has read previous posts)
Good luck
Roy
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
come on averages mean nothing that takes all the mega money wages into consideration which tops up the lower incomes its a load of rubbish.
Not quite so and very relevant to this question:
"Average" is a much misused word, as it can mean one of three things, mean, median and mode. So, when someone says "average" you need to be VERY sure which one they are using.
Probably the most relevant one to use when looking at salaries is the median salary (unless you're a union leader trying to get your guys up to the "UK average", in which case use the mean, but don't tell anyone, as it'll help your case no end). The median is the amount where if you line up all the people in a sample in order of salary, it would be the midpoint. Or, to put it another way, it is the sum whereby half of all the sample earn more and half earn less. That gets rid of the skew you're mentioning above, Cleancare, as someone earning even a hundred billion a year (to be daft) would have no more effect on the median than someone earning ten pence more than the median.
And the relevant figures are:
Median income for all employees in the UK is £21K. £18K would put 60% of people earning more than you, 40% less. So, possibly not too bad a figure.
However, median income for all employees in full time employment in the UK is £26K. In that line up, £18K would put 75% of people earning more than you and only 25% earning less. Which makes for a different story, perhaps.
and, finally, median income for a male in full time employment is £28K. Then £18K would put around 82% of people earning more than you and 18% earning less. Which makes for a VERY different story indeed.
All figures from the Office for National Statistics. All figures for 2011.
So, Richy, to put it simply, at £18K, your guy is earning less cash than 82% of the UK male population in full-time employment. If that helps you make an informed decision, all to the good. There isn't a breakdown for skilled/unskilled, so you might think that's OK.
Sorry for the detail, but it's important. I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
Vin
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First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.
Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.
Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.
I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.
You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.
So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.
If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.
Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.
These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.
At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.
I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.
good post mate thanks
what sort of bonus structure do you have in place
he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads
He was happy with only that much when you took him on. He was part of a team though with others to share the work load. Now you only have him on the tools and expect him to turnover his wages , your wages and company overheads.
In the same way you shouldn't have to explain your costs to him, he shouldnt have to carry the burden of keeping you afloat single handedly. Your massive overheads are not his problem. If he brings in £250 a day and you pay him £70 or less then he is earning your company £180.00 a day.
BUT... there is no company now. Just you and he must think as others have said that you are doing nothing to deserve it.
Also you mention that when you had your break- ins you lost a huge customer list. How much of your round is written down or listed on one of the software programs that you don't know about. This employee is the ONLY thing that is keeping you in business right now. If he walks you have to get off CIU, stop the big ideas and program your work in and go out and clean. Pay him more to do more. Perhaps you could go out and clean together. get the work done done by 2 each day and spend time getting the rounds sorted, admin done, leafleting etc. Involve yourself and grab back your business before its too late. He may be less resentful if you are involved in the money making. If he left how could you teach someone new if you don't know where half the work is.
There are many on here who would kill for a round like yours but you are about to throw it all away.
Stop spending all your time on here and rebuild your business now. As others have said , no fancy ideas. Splish splosh show us the dosh.
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
come on averages mean nothing that takes all the mega money wages into consideration which tops up the lower incomes its a load of rubbish.
Not quite so and very relevant to this question:
"Average" is a much misused word, as it can mean one of three things, mean, median and mode. So, when someone says "average" you need to be VERY sure which one they are using.
Probably the most relevant one to use when looking at salaries is the median salary (unless you're a union leader trying to get your guys up to the "UK average", in which case use the mean, but don't tell anyone, as it'll help your case no end). The median is the amount where if you line up all the people in a sample in order of salary, it would be the midpoint. Or, to put it another way, it is the sum whereby half of all the sample earn more and half earn less. That gets rid of the skew you're mentioning above, Cleancare, as someone earning even a hundred billion a year (to be daft) would have no more effect on the median than someone earning ten pence more than the median.
And the relevant figures are:
Median income for all employees in the UK is £21K. £18K would put 60% of people earning more than you, 40% less. So, possibly not too bad a figure.
However, median income for all employees in full time employment in the UK is £26K. In that line up, £18K would put 75% of people earning more than you and only 25% earning less. Which makes for a different story, perhaps.
and, finally, median income for a male in full time employment is £28K. Then £18K would put around 82% of people earning more than you and 18% earning less. Which makes for a VERY different story indeed.
All figures from the Office for National Statistics. All figures for 2011.
So, Richy, to put it simply, at £18K, your guy is earning less cash than 82% of the UK male population in full-time employment. If that helps you make an informed decision, all to the good. There isn't a breakdown for skilled/unskilled, so you might think that's OK.
Sorry for the detail, but it's important. I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
Vin
Vin, i must be getting old as I thought that was quite interesting.
But I still can't see this being a true figure for the uk workers sorry.
do you have 7 pairs of the same pants and are your socks labeled MONDAY TUESDAY ECT ? ;D
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
come on averages mean nothing that takes all the mega money wages into consideration which tops up the lower incomes its a load of rubbish.
Not quite so and very relevant to this question:
"Average" is a much misused word, as it can mean one of three things, mean, median and mode. So, when someone says "average" you need to be VERY sure which one they are using.
Probably the most relevant one to use when looking at salaries is the median salary (unless you're a union leader trying to get your guys up to the "UK average", in which case use the mean, but don't tell anyone, as it'll help your case no end). The median is the amount where if you line up all the people in a sample in order of salary, it would be the midpoint. Or, to put it another way, it is the sum whereby half of all the sample earn more and half earn less. That gets rid of the skew you're mentioning above, Cleancare, as someone earning even a hundred billion a year (to be daft) would have no more effect on the median than someone earning ten pence more than the median.
And the relevant figures are:
Median income for all employees in the UK is £21K. £18K would put 60% of people earning more than you, 40% less. So, possibly not too bad a figure.
However, median income for all employees in full time employment in the UK is £26K. In that line up, £18K would put 75% of people earning more than you and only 25% earning less. Which makes for a different story, perhaps.
and, finally, median income for a male in full time employment is £28K. Then £18K would put around 82% of people earning more than you and 18% earning less. Which makes for a VERY different story indeed.
All figures from the Office for National Statistics. All figures for 2011.
So, Richy, to put it simply, at £18K, your guy is earning less cash than 82% of the UK male population in full-time employment. If that helps you make an informed decision, all to the good. There isn't a breakdown for skilled/unskilled, so you might think that's OK.
Sorry for the detail, but it's important. I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
Vin
Without blowing smoke up the proverbial I ment the above comment as a comical complement.
And I actually rate your opinion as you are consistant and know what your talking about, even if it is a bit above me sometimes.
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I've not said I'm never cleaning I will be going out maintaining commercial canvassing areas we already have a lot of jobs in and getting work more compact and revuilding ,y work in better paying areas
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hello ritchy is you trolley still for sale email how much you want for it jayann@tesco.net
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18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me
EXACTLY! £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.
come on averages mean nothing that takes all the mega money wages into consideration which tops up the lower incomes its a load of rubbish.
Not quite so and very relevant to this question:
"Average" is a much misused word, as it can mean one of three things, mean, median and mode. So, when someone says "average" you need to be VERY sure which one they are using.
Probably the most relevant one to use when looking at salaries is the median salary (unless you're a union leader trying to get your guys up to the "UK average", in which case use the mean, but don't tell anyone, as it'll help your case no end). The median is the amount where if you line up all the people in a sample in order of salary, it would be the midpoint. Or, to put it another way, it is the sum whereby half of all the sample earn more and half earn less. That gets rid of the skew you're mentioning above, Cleancare, as someone earning even a hundred billion a year (to be daft) would have no more effect on the median than someone earning ten pence more than the median.
And the relevant figures are:
Median income for all employees in the UK is £21K. £18K would put 60% of people earning more than you, 40% less. So, possibly not too bad a figure.
However, median income for all employees in full time employment in the UK is £26K. In that line up, £18K would put 75% of people earning more than you and only 25% earning less. Which makes for a different story, perhaps.
and, finally, median income for a male in full time employment is £28K. Then £18K would put around 82% of people earning more than you and 18% earning less. Which makes for a VERY different story indeed.
All figures from the Office for National Statistics. All figures for 2011.
So, Richy, to put it simply, at £18K, your guy is earning less cash than 82% of the UK male population in full-time employment. If that helps you make an informed decision, all to the good. There isn't a breakdown for skilled/unskilled, so you might think that's OK.
Sorry for the detail, but it's important. I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
Vin
Excellent post vin I see your point I still think 18000 is a damn good wage for a window cleaner who has come from dole queue and only has 6 months experience I'm willing to put time and effort into training etc too
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hello ritchy is you trolley still for sale email how much you want for it jayann@tesco.net
Yeah mate come over and make me an offer it's not being used
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would you take £250 for it cheers
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Hi
Your the boss if you give in to much whats the next thing he's going to demand ???
Their are thousands of people looking for work their must be one out their happy to earn 18k a year and getting a free sun tan in the summer ;D ;D
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is this the same wc on £18.000 who this morning flooded you van and unit and only because i walked in and made him come out of the office did he realize what was going on ???
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Yeah bob that'll be the one wondered were me water was!!!
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would you take £250 for it cheers
Landry its a bare trolley with maybe just a battery on it no controller no pump etc just the frame, wheels and maybe the battery
I wouldn't take 250 for it let me get bk to u tomoz when I've taken a look at it for u see if I'm right
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Hi sorry but I just don't believe a word you say, I know most will shout, but sorry I'm just ot having it
That is all
Welcome to the real world ;)
Of course the back slappers and brown nose'ers will not agree
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Vin, i must be getting old as I thought that was quite interesting.
But I still can't see this being a true figure for the uk workers sorry.
do you have 7 pairs of the same pants and are your socks labeled MONDAY TUESDAY ECT ? ;D
I am the most disorganised human being you're ever likely to meet. If the current Mrs Vin ever left me, I'd die of starvation in a couple of weeks because I'd forget to buy food. And if I remembered, I'd forget where the shops are...
It's based upon a non-political department and is an index of average earnings based on earnings data from a sample of about 8,000 businesses. The ONS is regularly reviewed as being excellent and impartial, so those are probably the best figures available. They have no axe to grind.
If you have a different perception of what UK workers earn, you may (and please take this the way it's intended) wish to look to find the source of those feelings. Are you basing it on personal experience? The numbers quoted by a newspaper? Something someone who hasn't sampled 8,000 businesses has said? I'd trust their numbers over anything I felt any day of the week, as I'd be amazed if my experience was typical.
Vin
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Richy
you are completely missing it mate - if he is as good as you say, then he's well worth 33%, easily - come on, what are your overheads??
General rule of thumb in business is a third anyway, and if he's real good than he should command at least that. Besides, if he's working, he's making you money, so give him a third, you will regret it if you don't.
How can you replace him?
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I've not said I'm never cleaning I will be going out maintaining commercial canvassing areas we already have a lot of jobs in and getting work more compact and revuilding ,y work in better paying areas
Whatever mate. You obviously know whats best. I'll leave you to it.
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Richy
you are completely missing it mate - if he is as good as you say, then he's well worth 33%, easily - come on, what are your overheads??
General rule of thumb in business is a third anyway, and if he's real good than he should command at least that. Besides, if he's working, he's making you money, so give him a third, you will regret it if you don't.
How can you replace him?
IF THE EMPLOYEE IS DOING THE WHOLE ROUND BY HIMSELF, MAYBE.
BUT IF ALONG SIDE RICHY NO WAY!
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Richy
you are completely missing it mate - if he is as good as you say, then he's well worth 33%, easily - come on, what are your overheads??
General rule of thumb in business is a third anyway, and if he's real good than he should command at least that. Besides, if he's working, he's making you money, so give him a third, you will regret it if you don't.
How can you replace him?
Why not put him on a basic and top it up with a commission? But I still think you have to go over £18 K or those little wheels inside his head will be turning. He sees every day how much he is making for you and by the sounds of it he has started thinking about it.
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or you could franchise a part of the business to him, that way you earn from his sweat and he is in control on how much sweating he does. 8)
a win win deal 8)
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I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
I'd only take issue with that fact that average means average. Median and all the rest of it is a complicated way of explaining a 'typical' wage ;D
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god it's hard to keep up with this thread & side orders of equipment sales as well ! ;D
It's interesting to note peoples attitude to 'employee's' - i wonder how many would take these comments if they were
the employee themselves ??? - a good employee is worth their weight in gold
Pure i commend you on a fine wage structure - i have filed this for future use :)
Darran
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He's not going to be doing whole round on his own obviously most of domestic for now coz I want to reorganise it all into 30 different rounds for each day of six weekly and compact each area and have set schedules for each days work which we do every six weeks at present we just have areas which we go at whatever way we feel which is no good
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god it's hard to keep up with this thread & side orders of equipment sales as well ! ;D
It's interesting to note peoples attitude to 'employee's' - i wonder how many would take these comments if they were
the employee themselves ??? - a good employee is worth their weight in gold
Pure i commend you on a fine wage structure - i have filed this for future use :)
Darran
[/quote
it one of my rules, treat others on how you would like to be treated. Also in all my jobs I have had, the biggest gripes has alway been about conditions and wages.
when I have worked for employers who look after their staff, well, you do notice the difference to the others who don't like working theirs.
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It's interesting to note peoples attitude to 'employee's' - i wonder how many would take these comments if they were
the employee themselves ??? - a good employee is worth their weight in gold
I thought this too. I liked richys previous take on employees and helping out the community !!!.....
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=145846.msg1201607#msg1201607
im confiedent i can rebuild the work up to where it was with better quality work this is a cheap alternative to employing whilst also giving back to community and doing my bit .
its an idea like i did highlight in the post
if i cud have two lads cleaning 350-400 a day and only paying 90quid tats good business sense and if it was a success and i employed another apprentice to go out with me ya getting 700 a day cleaned and only paying out 120-130 a day in wages for window cleaning
I wonder why everyones leaving when he's so helpfull and giving to the community?
And then the rest advising on how not to pay when its quiet and no work etc... complete shysters the lot of them !! I suppose you get what you pay for, and thats only if you can manage even that !!!
I'll bet this threads been read many times with a big grin ;D
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So what do you all pay your employees??? I thought 18000 was a pretty decent wage
At the minute a lot of my work is made up of messers ok he may be cleaning 250 a day but its a ball ache getting paid from them, this is why I want to spend time refining with better quality work in nicer areas
Most window cleaning employees I know don't earn answer near that lets look at my local competition
40-45 quid a day 8-4 each day 4.30-8 collecting this is from the employees mouths I don't know if that's taxable or cash in hand
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I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
I'd only take issue with that fact that average means average. Median and all the rest of it is a complicated way of explaining a 'typical' wage ;D
This is where you're being misled and why people think that statistics can lie.
When someone says "average" most people automatically relate it to the "arithmetic mean" which is the sum of all the salaries divided by the number of people. This is indeed an average, but it's not the average.
Unfortunately, "median" (as above) and "mode" (most common salary) are all legitimately referred to as "average". The word "average" refers to all three.
That's why you'll get a manager in a big firm saying the average salary in this firm is £25K(so your salaries are OK) and a union leader saying it's £30K (so our salaries need to go up) and they can both be telling the truth.
"Average" is not equivalent to "mean"!
Don't take my word for it:
From Wikipedia antry for average "Many different descriptive statistics can be chosen as a measure of the central tendency of the data items. These include the arithmetic mean, the median, and the mode."
From Wiktionary: "The term average may refer to the statistical mean, median or mode of a batch".
Seriously, it's one of the most misused words in politics. Always wonder what someone really means if they just use the catch-all word "average".
Vin
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Sorry for the hijack...
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No probs ;D
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So what do you all pay your employees??? I thought 18000 was a pretty decent wage
18k is a decent wage.
At the minute a lot of my work is made up of messers ok he may be cleaning 250 a day but its a ball ache getting paid from them, this is why I want to spend time refining with better quality work in nicer areas
Thats all your problem not his, you're the employer.
Most window cleaning employees I know don't earn answer near that lets look at my local competition
40-45 quid a day 8-4 each day 4.30-8 collecting this is from the employees mouths I don't know if that's taxable or cash in hand
What sort of person works from 8am and finished collecting at 8pm for 40-45 quid a day? Would you want that sort of person working for you?
Man up and manage your operation. Tell him he's on £350 a week and make sure you keep him busy, or he can sling his hook. If he wants more then get some Saturday work for him.Whats to do with ya? And start looking for a possible replacement if thats what he might do.
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This is where you're being misled and why people think that statistics can lie.
When someone says "average" most people automatically relate it to the "arithmetic mean" which is the sum of all the salaries divided by the number of people. This is indeed an average, but it's not the average.
Unfortunately, "median" (as above) and "mode" (most common salary) are all legitimately referred to as "average". The word "average" refers to all three.
That's why you'll get a manager in a big firm saying the average salary in this firm is £25K(so your salaries are OK) and a union leader saying it's £30K (so our salaries need to go up) and they can both be telling the truth.
"Average" is not equivalent to "mean"!
Don't take my word for it:
From Wikipedia antry for average "Many different descriptive statistics can be chosen as a measure of the central tendency of the data items. These include the arithmetic mean, the median, and the mode."
From Wiktionary: "The term average may refer to the statistical mean, median or mode of a batch".
Seriously, it's one of the most misused words in politics. Always wonder what someone really means if they just use the catch-all word "average".
Vin
You're complicating it !! Average means.........
The result obtained by adding several quantities together and then dividing this total by the number of quantities; the mean.
Typical means usual, expected, the norm etc.....
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richy
If you are having problems with customers not paying or messing you about, then you need to deal with these first.
Forget about employing at the moment, give notice to all your customers that payment is require after each clean and certainly before the next one is due.
Any who don't want to play by the rules, DUMP.
I never collect, I phone/text the night before and the customer leaves the payment, in some secure place we only know about.
If they try and say not this time, then remind them nicely that you are a full time cleaner not a fly by the night, and if they don' t require a regular cleaner then you are willing to put them on the one-off customer list, and I CHARGE a minimum of £50 for these customers.
It might sound hard but it does work, after a year of doing this you will have a smaller round, but all the customers will be golden ones, build a rep in the area that you are the best.
You can then start to build on what you have, remember a customer who doesn't pay or have their windows cleaned when they are supposed too, are really not customers.
I can get a mulit million pound turnover on customers who won't pay me. but I like my smaller round because they do.
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That's the plan pure what I'm going to begin doing,when I had the four staff we were scared to dump to many with fear of having to let people go, and when we did dump or lose some they weren't being replaced by sales manager guy,
I'm standing up to the plate now and thinking of myself for a change and building the business for me if he don't want 18grand then he can go n il take all my cream work n cut bk to 4 days a week n have long weekends with family
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you are also looking for commercia
what you could do is sub-contract some of this to local good cleaners, this way you earn while doing a little bit of paperwork each month and it builds your business turnover up
so when you reach the level where you can afford staff wages of £20k you stop subbing the work out and do the cleaning yourself with your new workforce.
Remember too take it slowly, its all well and good getting all the work in, but stupid if you fsil when it comes to servicing it, because its a lot easier to lose it than getting it.
also don't try looking for loopholes around everything, if a lot of people put as much energy into doing it correctly in the first place rather than trying to beat the system, they would be very rich and sucessfull
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You're complicating it !! Average means.........
The result obtained by adding several quantities together and then dividing this total by the number of quantities; the mean.
Typical means usual, expected, the norm etc.....
Believe what you want and keep on misunderstanding many of the statistics you hear bandied about. Take average to mean exactly what you want. Put a plastic bucket over your head. Go to Grimsby on holiday. I really don't care. I've seen too much selective cutting and pasting like yours above to be interested in prolonging a pointless argument.
Vin
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i think you should pay him 99 per cent cause he sounds like a nice guy,
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Right.
This forum has all the best advice you need.
You are continually given it but continue with one folly after another.
I don`t think its you,its who you are closely surrounded by,somebody holds too much influence and i suspect its the pen pushing freeloader.Maybe it is you. Someone ,either you or somebody else needs a severe beating,the biggest rollocking of their lives.This scenario of yours is painful to observe.
Bottom line is that all your problems stem from the fact that the business is top heavy,the people to dump are you and your pal or turn yourself into workers then when you`ve established £700-£1000 of good paying work a week each you can employ.
Your canvasser(sales manager!) has had your pants down bigstyle,
ALSO anyone thats had a pound out of your pocket without cleaning a window for it.
Canvasser,monkeys off the dole paid peanuts to clean the work produced means you are a crap window cleaning outfit and deserve to fail.
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Canvasser,monkeys off the dole paid peanuts to clean the work produced means you are a crap window cleaning outfit and deserve to fail.
oooooooooooooooooooooooooouch !
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If someone would earn me 250-260 a day i would be over the moon to pay £100 :o
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If someone would earn me 250-260 a day i would be over the moon to pay £100 :o
my thoughts exactly
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With regards to sales people, canvassers in any form really to be honest. You should expect hard graft and phone bashing, not just 10 mins, It has to be continuously picking the phone up, speaking, finishing the call and then Next. It cant be flaky as such - numbers game, even if you can do it for 1 hour a day, that would be 20/25 worth of prospects, but needs to be stuck at. If I dont come up with results, I feel a failure....I want what's best for the client whose paying me....
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Right.
This forum has all the best advice you need.
You are continually given it but continue with one folly after another.
I don`t think its you,its who you are closely surrounded by,somebody holds too much influence and i suspect its the pen pushing freeloader.Maybe it is you. Someone ,either you or somebody else needs a severe beating,the biggest rollocking of their lives.This scenario of yours is painful to observe.
Bottom line is that all your problems stem from the fact that the business is top heavy,the people to dump are you and your pal or turn yourself into workers then when you`ve established £700-£1000 of good paying work a week each you can employ.
Your canvasser(sales manager!) has had your pants down bigstyle,
ALSO anyone thats had a pound out of your pocket without cleaning a window for it.
Canvasser,monkeys off the dole paid peanuts to clean the work produced means you are a crap window cleaning outfit and deserve to fail.
U have obviously not read all the posts carl the free loader has left now I'm left with me and Andy the good workeriv offered this lad a pay rise of approx 3 grand coz I value u him,I'm taking in the info given to me but it's one day at a time Rome weren't built in a day
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Believe what you want and keep on misunderstanding many of the statistics you hear bandied about. Take average to mean exactly what you want. Put a plastic bucket over your head. Go to Grimsby on holiday. I really don't care. I've seen too much selective cutting and pasting like yours above to be interested in prolonging a pointless argument.
The law of averages (another one for ya!) says i will neither put a bucket on my head, nor go to Grimsby on holiday. Mainly because i don't like the people from over that way and i can't see when i've done that previously with a bucket. And i do agree with you when you say......
Seriously, it's one of the most misused words in politics. Always wonder what someone really means if they just use the catch-all word "average".
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ease all yr worries il take
all yr work on n pay u a third ;D ;D
richy if that job comes off just bell me
il get ya all da insides done ;) ;)
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what a muppet
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Whose a muppet
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Whose a muppet
Kermit - and Big Bird to name but two ...
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I know I'll get flamed for it and told that you can prove anything with statistics, but how can you make decisions without facts?
Cue Rain Man comments.
I'd only take issue with that fact that average means average. Median and all the rest of it is a complicated way of explaining a 'typical' wage ;D
This is where you're being misled and why people think that statistics can lie.
When someone says "average" most people automatically relate it to the "arithmetic mean" which is the sum of all the salaries divided by the number of people. This is indeed an average, but it's not the average.
Unfortunately, "median" (as above) and "mode" (most common salary) are all legitimately referred to as "average". The word "average" refers to all three.
That's why you'll get a manager in a big firm saying the average salary in this firm is £25K(so your salaries are OK) and a union leader saying it's £30K (so our salaries need to go up) and they can both be telling the truth.
"Average" is not equivalent to "mean"!
Don't take my word for it:
From Wikipedia antry for average "Many different descriptive statistics can be chosen as a measure of the central tendency of the data items. These include the arithmetic mean, the median, and the mode."
From Wiktionary: "The term average may refer to the statistical mean, median or mode of a batch".
Seriously, it's one of the most misused words in politics. Always wonder what someone really means if they just use the catch-all word "average".
Vin
the other day I don't think I said it, now I will:
Geek ;D
although interesting, your defo a geek Vin ;)