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macmac

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2008, 06:40:27 pm »
Good for you paul griffin, I, myself have many jobs that are far quicker trad & so I trad them. I too like trad, I use both methods to which ever suites best. Wfp can, sometimes, be so much hassle in some situations that the job becomes worthless! It just doesn't suit every situation. ;)

Regards

Tony

Paul Coleman

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2008, 06:53:36 pm »
A bloke died the other month in my area - fell off his ladder and broke his back and he had been WCing for years. His family is obviously devastated. I can understand scaling back to just WFPing upstairs but to use a ladder again after having already invested in WFP is, imo, crazy! It only takes one bad fall...

Had one less than a mile from where I live a couple of years ago.  He didn't die but the blood from his head left the pavement pretty red I'm told.  Amazingly, he was working again a month later even though they weren't sure if he would pull through.  I've known the guy for years.  He walks and speaks more slowly now.  He can work but there is a definite impairment in the way he does things.
I had a couple of near misses myself.  On the worst one, if the patio had been a foot bigger, I would have been in serious trouble.  The top of the ladder stopped on the lowest course of tiles of the ground floor extension.  The reason it stopped was because the bottom of the ladder had reached the end of the patio and stuck into the soft ground.  When things like that happen, it makes you think a bit and slows you down.  I wasn't really aware of WFP back then but that was one of the things that crossed my mind when making my decisions.
It's better to be born lucky than rich - though a bit of both wouldn't go amiss  :)  .

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2008, 07:23:09 pm »
This is for Ria!  ;DI am very lucky I never use ladders ;D dont have to,dont need wfp ??? and I would never buy it! cause I got no use for it, and its fact there are lots out there that dont want it,custys I mean. we only do Blue chip stuff High profile companys etc,never do houses and would not do them to!
some time back we took a contract from a wfp who did a car showroom,
the manager hated it,so he kicked him out got us! it has its uses but the way the climate of money and the way that the work is going,no one is going to spend loads on wfp,you will get more Trad start up ???  the fact is wfp makers are not hearing those magic words, ladders are banned ;D ::)
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

birdymiller

  • Posts: 682
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #83 on: October 06, 2008, 07:32:57 pm »
Good for you terry but i for one am happy doing houses and wouldnt touch "blue chip" with "the climate of money". Wfp dosent cost you loads mate £500 tops. My custys are happy im safer.

bigsi41

  • Posts: 22
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #84 on: October 06, 2008, 07:36:20 pm »
If you use common sense and decent ladders , then you will be ok .  I wont do jobs that are too high , and as a rule I wont ladder up more then the average size upstairs windows ! 

johns window kleen

  • Posts: 406
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2008, 07:54:37 pm »
I have read all this with interest, and in my experience in this job I have been told by custies of 4 serious injuries caused by falls from ladders in the last 12 months. 1 was a very experienced guy 20 odd years as a W/C. Was in Stoke Mandeville not sure if he can ever walk again, spinal and head injuries. Made me think, all this because of cleaning someones bloody windows!!!!
Yeah WFP is grief with its snags, water refills, maintanence, etc etc, but in all honesty unless I hit an overhead cable, not much harm will come to me, so I put up with it.
Incidentanly I prefer Trad and do all ground floor this way, unless pushed for time. Trad cleaners are the true exponents of window cleaning in my opinion. WFP gives good/acceptable results but is not rocket science and dont require much skill just a bit of experience maybe, and a lot of maintanence to guarantee good results. Trad is more enjoyable and skillfull.
But without wishing to sound too contradictory, stuff it would I go up a ladder to clean a window again given what has happened to some of these poor people. Unlucky dont touch it. Who wants a job that can maim or kill you for a few quid. I will remain a ground floor master craftsman.

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #86 on: October 06, 2008, 08:46:06 pm »
I went on a ladder course early this year.its a case of ladders are not dangerous
its the user! that was with the ladder federation,which now says I am ladder certified, whate I hear you say! just another course ??? another badge,does it make a differance ??? do to companys
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #87 on: October 06, 2008, 09:06:59 pm »
Good for you terry but i for one am happy doing houses and wouldnt touch "blue chip" with "the climate of money". Wfp dosent cost you loads mate £500 tops. My custys are happy im safer.

I have and still am looking at WFP but "£500 tops" is just not true. You say that like it’s the maximum it will cost you, yet some say you could spend that alone on your water bill for WFP. As for the systems they are very pricey if you look at the likes of ionics. But yeah, get a DIY system; you could get one for £500. Pure water has been used in the cleaning industry for a long time, if you look at car valeting companies. Aquariums use RO and DI kits for there fresh water fish, so its not necessarily a new idea.

I guess my view on this topic, is good luck mate and I am glad you are happy. Take every precaution that you can, and I wish you all the best.

Trad? Its funny when I hear people, call a squeegee and a bucket trad, when 100 years ago, it was chamois leather. Its wasn't until the 30's that the squeegee came into fashion, and now for close to 80 years of using squeegee’s people are moving to water fed poles. I have heard stories of how WC's who used rags, where unsure of the squeegee. Could this be the case with WFP, could WFP be the next tool of the trade.

Going by this forum, it would seem that it is, however when I look at the WC's in my area, and see the only WFP user, doing his residential from a ladder, I wonder if maybe it isn't.

There does seem to be a divide between WC's on here, each trying to justify there method. WFP users slagging the very method that they started with, and Trad WC slagging a method they in most cases have never used.

It seems that this sort of topic could go on for a long time yet on this forum, but it only goes to show that it is not a clean cut as some might make it out to be. The very fact that people are trying to come to some conclusion as to which is better as a standard business model for all WC's, and not coming to any kind of decision or final conclusion to these topics say to me that the industry as whole has not yet decided that the squeegee should be put back on the shelf of the local museums.

I think that we will see both of method used for a long time to come. If WFP ever does become cheap and most importantly cheap to run and maintain, as well as being a tool useable for any WC, not just them in back in front doors, or will garages, and the insurance goes down, I might see WFP taking over trad, but in truth that isn't going to happen and you all know it.

gerard  :)

birdymiller

  • Posts: 682
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #88 on: October 06, 2008, 09:36:08 pm »
I have been using my wfp setup for 5 months and so far i have not spent penny on my setup to maintain it. I did pay £900 for my setup but knowing what i know now i could have spent £500. I am not slagging trad or wfp. As has been said before we are window cleaners and we use tools to clean windows. My choice of tool now for the upstairs on the majority(not all) of my round is the pole, as it is safer.

peter holley

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #89 on: October 06, 2008, 09:40:55 pm »
madness ???wfp is safer quicker and better results in general... a poll or survey would agree ::)

cat9921

  • Posts: 669
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2008, 09:47:20 pm »
Good for you terry but i for one am happy doing houses and wouldnt touch "blue chip" with "the climate of money". Wfp dosent cost you loads mate £500 tops. My custys are happy im safer.

I have and still am looking at WFP but "£500 tops" is just not true. You say that like it’s the maximum it will cost you, yet some say you could spend that alone on your water bill for WFP. As for the systems they are very pricey if you look at the likes of ionics. But yeah, get a DIY system; you could get one for £500. Pure water has been used in the cleaning industry for a long time, if you look at car valeting companies. Aquariums use RO and DI kits for there fresh water fish, so its not necessarily a new idea.

I guess my view on this topic, is good luck mate and I am glad you are happy. Take every precaution that you can, and I wish you all the best.

Trad? Its funny when I hear people, call a squeegee and a bucket trad, when 100 years ago, it was chamois leather. Its wasn't until the 30's that the squeegee came into fashion, and now for close to 80 years of using squeegee’s people are moving to water fed poles. I have heard stories of how WC's who used rags, where unsure of the squeegee. Could this be the case with WFP, could WFP be the next tool of the trade.

Going by this forum, it would seem that it is, however when I look at the WC's in my area, and see the only WFP user, doing his residential from a ladder, I wonder if maybe it isn't.

There does seem to be a divide between WC's on here, each trying to justify there method. WFP users slagging the very method that they started with, and Trad WC slagging a method they in most cases have never used.

It seems that this sort of topic could go on for a long time yet on this forum, but it only goes to show that it is not a clean cut as some might make it out to be. The very fact that people are trying to come to some conclusion as to which is better as a standard business model for all WC's, and not coming to any kind of decision or final conclusion to these topics say to me that the industry as whole has not yet decided that the squeegee should be put back on the shelf of the local museums.

I think that we will see both of method used for a long time to come. If WFP ever does become cheap and most importantly cheap to run and maintain, as well as being a tool useable for any WC, not just them in back in front doors, or will garages, and the insurance goes down, I might see WFP taking over trad, but in truth that isn't going to happen and you all know it.

gerard  :)


A well thought out and honest post  ;)

my say on the matter is this... If you are happier using trad then all the best.. but I have to say I found this post as a suprise  :o
I think WFP suits domestic better then comercial in a lot of ways..

Domestic has a lot of uneven ground or roofs that you can not do when its to wet or icey... If I had to go back to ladders.. Some of my upstairs windows would not get done because of these things

Now they get them cleaned all year round  ;D

But WFP does have its down side  :'( some windows will just not take to WFP so its a trad job  ;D ;D

as for this taking work off trad or wfp cleaners.. This is pointless
 I have lost work to trad I have picked up work from trad I have picked up work from other wfp

as long as you do a good job use what tool is best

I love WFP more then trad , But would be lost with out it,

But thats just my opinion ;)

Adders Rinse and Clean

matt

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #91 on: October 06, 2008, 10:33:31 pm »
i love trad work, its great, you can stand back and see gleaming windows

would i ever ditch the WFP, nope, why, its safer, pure and simple, i leave the house in the morning and the cahnces are i will be returning to see my family late afternoon

ive allways done trad on the bottoms and WFP on the top, i have done for years now

Im slowly doing all the houses with WFP, BUT the people who ask me to do them trad downstairs are happy when i say " yes ok , no worries ", i know people will say, your letting your customers run you biz, they are telling you how to clean windows, my response " yes they are, afterall they pay me the money "

i dont care if its WFP up and down or just up, not that important to me, i will have a 400 L tank in the van soon, so water isnt a issue, just customer satisfaction

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2008, 10:44:43 pm »
i love trad work, its great, you can stand back and see gleaming windows

would i ever ditch the WFP, nope, why, its safer, pure and simple, i leave the house in the morning and the cahnces are i will be returning to see my family late afternoon

ive allways done trad on the bottoms and WFP on the top, i have done for years now

Im slowly doing all the houses with WFP, BUT the people who ask me to do them trad downstairs are happy when i say " yes ok , no worries ", i know people will say, your letting your customers run you biz, they are telling you how to clean windows, my response " yes they are, afterall they pay me the money "

i dont care if its WFP up and down or just up, not that important to me, i will have a 400 L tank in the van soon, so water isnt a issue, just customer satisfaction

Pretty much the same for me ( apart from using it for years :P )


tomo

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2008, 05:37:40 pm »
Hi Guy's

 my friend had a fall from ladders many years ago when he was a window cleaner he fell about 15ft and landed on his feet as his legs didnt bend the shock travelled up to his back and he broke it ,
he recovered and did many other non window cleaning jobs after... but that "old"  injury has caught up and he had an operation last week to fuse two of his lower vertabrae.
 He's in agony at the moment as he had to have two metal rods inserted in his back for extra strength....Speeds not important...... but please be careful... you can work 25 to 30 yrs off ladders safely but only need to fall once as  what happened to my friend.

regards

Tomo

cat9921

  • Posts: 669
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2008, 06:27:06 pm »
Sorry to here that tomo

Thanks for sharing that with us, I can see WFP becoming the future and not for the wrong reasons but to help those bad things from happening

Thanks
Adders Rinse and clean

Dean Taberner

  • Posts: 4164
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2008, 06:42:49 pm »
Hi Guy's

 my friend had a fall from ladders many years ago when he was a window cleaner he fell about 15ft and landed on his feet as his legs didnt bend the shock travelled up to his back and he broke it ,
he recovered and did many other non window cleaning jobs after... but that "old"  injury has caught up and he had an operation last week to fuse two of his lower vertabrae.
 He's in agony at the moment as he had to have two metal rods inserted in his back for extra strength....Speeds not important...... but please be careful... you can work 25 to 30 yrs off ladders safely but only need to fall once as  what happened to my friend.

regards

Tomo

I did the same and was very very lucky not to break my back so the orthopedic surgeon told me.

Instead I smashed my ankle to pieces and broke my shin, both my feet and both of my heels!!!! :o :o :o

Dean
Operations manager at J.V Price Ltd

http://www.thepricegroup.co.uk

elite mike

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2008, 07:03:50 pm »
Hi Guy's

 my friend had a fall from ladders many years ago when he was a window cleaner he fell about 15ft and landed on his feet as his legs didnt bend the shock travelled up to his back and he broke it ,
he recovered and did many other non window cleaning jobs after... but that "old"  injury has caught up and he had an operation last week to fuse two of his lower vertabrae.
 He's in agony at the moment as he had to have two metal rods inserted in his back for extra strength....Speeds not important...... but please be careful... you can work 25 to 30 yrs off ladders safely but only need to fall once as  what happened to my friend.

regards

Tomo

hi tomo

give us  a ring, you know the no.

mike

simonwonder

Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2008, 11:25:03 pm »
back working for me
80 miles each way to do one or two commercial contracts a day
not going there again
3500 miles a month i worked out over 4 day week for 4 weeks
250 miles per day and then 2 large commercial window cleans to do
i decided no thanks  not for £280 gross per week

van going back tomorrow
start again trad on thursday for my best boss ME !!

Dale Smith

  • Posts: 491
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2008, 11:29:41 pm »
Welcome back already Simon!!

The only way you could have made that work was if you were staying away, and to keep costs down you would have had to sleep in the van.... ;D
Swindon, Wiltshire.

d s windowcleaning

  • Posts: 2782
Re: Gone back to ladders
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2008, 11:31:59 pm »
great ive just become the 100 poster my advice is becareful on them ladders mate we dont want to read about you in 6 months time .
where theres muck theres money