[dazmond]

so how long after turning off your tap on your pole does the heater turn off?surely its not after a few seconds or the boiler just wouldnt heat the water up at all and it d be forever firing up or turning off.

[Splash & dash]

Probably no point circulating water other than frost protection.  It won't heat up by much if circulating it all the time while not in use. It will be a waste of diesel.

The system is designed to shut on and off during use saving fuel rather then sending water back to tank.

No quite the opposite actually it is designed to run continually most people have a return to the tank with hot water mine will heat 1000 ltr by returning water to the tank by lunch time you can hardly bare to put your hand In the tank as the water is that hot , the last thing you want with a diesel heater is for it to be stop start all the time works far better if run all the time otherwise it will come up the screen causing premature failure

I'm just going by the advise I was given by Grippa

Mine is Grippatank and that’s not the way it’s designed to work stop stop start is the worst thing you can do with one of theses heaters as it soots up the screen and causes premature failure mine runs 8 hours a day 5 days a week for k er 3 years now it certainly wouldn’t be working like it does if it was continuously stop start it also uses more battery power if run like that , I wonder if you mis understood what Grippatank said as Oliver was very clear as to the best way to run it , I think most would give the same advice I spoke to Varitech as I was looking at the heatwave 2 before I got the Grippatank one and they also said continual running is how it should be used

[Splash & dash]

Probably no point circulating water other than frost protection.  It won't heat up by much if circulating it all the time while not in use. It will be a waste of diesel.

The system is designed to shut on and off during use saving fuel rather then sending water back to tank.

No quite the opposite actually it is designed to run continually most people have a return to the tank with hot water mine will heat 1000 ltr by returning water to the tank by lunch time you can hardly bare to put your hand In the tank as the water is that hot , the last thing you want with a diesel heater is for it to be stop start all the time works far better if run all the time otherwise it will come up the screen causing premature failure

I'm just going by the advise I was given by Grippa

Do you have a grippatank hot system?

If so, when you turn your flow off with a univalve or similar, does the burner cut out?

Yes I have we run 2 hose reels on hot if only one is being used the other one is returning hot water to the tank  thus keeping the boiler going all the time , if you have both reels out and stop using water the system will shut down and fire up again when you start using water but generally we are using both reels if they are out , depending on temperature it will shut down in a matter of a couple of muinets if no water is being used or no return to the tank , hope this helps and makes sense , hopefully Oliver will see this post and put up an explanation of this that may be better

[Spruce]

Thanks guys!

👍

Starting to get the idea now. It’s a shame there’s not a bypass valve setting.

So am I right in saying that for the frost stat to work you have to remember to re-arrange your pipe work and connect back to tank?

As the saying goes; you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Ionics recirculate the heat back to the tank when the hose tap is switched off. It does it with a pressure relief valve. But the down side is that the pump runs all the time. The upside is that you will get hot water all the time. The next downside is that Ionics can't fit a thermostatic temperature control valve - on a low temperature setting the process wouldn't work as the flow back to the tank wouldn't be zapping enough heat from the system. Ionics have included a summer and winter switch will reduces the winter temperature by around 10 degrees depending on how they have wired the switch up.

The downside with the other heaters is that when the boiler switches off it takes 180 seconds to complete its shutdown cycle which can't be interupted. It then takes another 180 second to restart the boiler and takes longer still to reach 'working' temperature. So the window cleaner who just starts to clean again after a short break will find he soon has cold water at the brush head if the heater has just entered its shutdown mode.  If it takes him 6 minutes to clean the front or back windows then the boiler will only just start to get going when the job is completed. Its easy to get out of sync with the heaters shutdown modes.

Having invested a large sum of money in his system he may start to feel that he has been short changed if it happens often.

I get rather frustrated waiting for the controller to restart the flow if I have to wait 4 seconds, let alone 6 minutes plus.

Hmmmm, that’s interesting spruce.

So just thinking out loud, it should I’m probciple be very very easy to rig up a pressure relief valve yourself. Just fit that between the pump and reel, with a return to the tank. Then as soon as you turn the water off at your brush head, the pressure builds, opens the relief valve and starts putting hot water back into the tank.

When you turn the water back on at the brush head the pressure relief valve will be closed and then you divert the hot water to your brush.

As you said, downside is that the pump runs constantly, but you can have plenty enough power to combat that, but the plus side is that you get rid of the 180 second shut down, and get a hot tank of water by lunch time meaning you can turn off the boiler.

What exactly is it that kicks in the 180 second shut down?

The Webasto is programmed to shut down once the water in the internal water circuit reaches a perprogrammed heat.


On NWH's Thermo Top C is when the temperature reaches 77 degrees C. (When it reaches 74 degrees C its goes into half heat mode.)
It takes sometime to  heat 8 or 9 liters of water in the header tank and then heat is being removed from the system when you are cleaning windows. So no, the heater doesn't switch off between windows. NWH will give you an idea of how long it takes the heater to get up to working temperature.

When used as an engine and windscreen defroster, the normal time to warm the engine is around 30 minutes using the same heater. The Thermo Top C will heat the water in the engine first until it reaches 30 degrees C and then it will kick the internal heater fan on to defrost the windscreen if its switched on inside the vehicle.) It cuts off at 77 degrees C as that's just before the thermostat opens to pass water through the radiator to cool it.

NWH plugs his hose into the tank once he has finished cleaning windows and this is a manual bypass with the pump working. One could also use a 3 way ball valve to quickly swap the heat source from the pole to the tank.

With the Frostat that Spring sell they incorporate a thermometer on the outlet from the system to the hose reel. This reads the temperature in the van and is the trigger to activate the controller. Its suggested that hot water is run through the hose reel as that also keeps it from freezing up. The Frostat not only switches on the heater but also activates the pump as well.

The Frostat doesn't keep a watch on the temperature rise above 2 degrees. It just runs for 10 minutes and any heat taken from the internal heating circuit is pumped into the tank.  It switches off after 10 minutes and is only reactivated once the temperature drops to 2 degrees C again.
The water in the internal heating circuit is protected from frost as it is treated with antifreeze. The problem is that the pure water in the other chamber of the heat exchanger will freeze and damage the heat exchanger. So switching on the heater is to protect the pure water circuit.

Ionics bypass valve kickes off at 65psi. I would rather use a 3 way ball valve and redirect the hot water to the tank that way.

Here's an example
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2-3-4-1-3-way-Ball-Valve-Stainless-Steel-Female-Port-T-Type-Lever-Handle/262760754224?hash=item3d2dc2ec30:m:m0HdHGkEzlvFpKUKk-ad64g

[NWH]

I walk back to the van with the pole still running disconnect lower the flow rate and plug into the tank so the heater thinks it still has to work but on a lower flow,by lowering the flow it allows more time for the water to pass through the heat exchanger making it heat the water in the system quicker. By disconnecting and it powering down it has to go through the heat up process again therefore draining the battery more,when it’s on full heat mode you can hear that it’s using the diesel in the motor when it’s taken over from the battery start up process.

[NWH]

This is the main reason people say by the time you’ve done a house it’s just starting to get hot,they’ve not recirculated the water from the previous job so it’s powering up and down all the time. After talking to a plumber the best solution for a consistent very hot water system would be to have an on demand system like this and a twin element 3kw static setup,you could turn the valve down to minimum on the heater early in the day and turn it up mid morning giving you very hot water. You would get away with it on milder winter days but not on days like this coming week.

[Jonny 87]

Thanks for the info spruce. Very knowledgeable as always.

Seems like there’s a bit of an art to this!

[dazmond]

This is the main reason people say by the time you’ve done a house it’s just starting to get hot,they’ve not recirculated the water from the previous job so it’s powering up and down all the time. After talking to a plumber the best solution for a consistent very hot water system would be to have an on demand system like this and a twin element 3kw static setup,you could turn the valve down to minimum on the heater early in the day and turn it up mid morning giving you very hot water. You would get away with it on milder winter days but not on days like this coming week.

so how long does it take for the heater to power down nigel when you turn off your pole tap?a few mins,5 mins?im often parked up for hours cleaning house after house.

[Jonny 87]

This is the main reason people say by the time you’ve done a house it’s just starting to get hot,they’ve not recirculated the water from the previous job so it’s powering up and down all the time. After talking to a plumber the best solution for a consistent very hot water system would be to have an on demand system like this and a twin element 3kw static setup,you could turn the valve down to minimum on the heater early in the day and turn it up mid morning giving you very hot water. You would get away with it on milder winter days but not on days like this coming week.

so how long does it take for the heater to power down nigel when you turn off your pole tap?a few mins,5 mins?im often parked up for hours cleaning house after house.

Daz I wonder if it would be a nice option for you to have a second pump, constantly circulating the hot water back to the tank.  Might be worth querying that with Oliver.

That way atleast youve got options.

[NWH]

I have a 12” piece of hose with a ez snap connector on it I just push it into the air vent in the top of the tank no need to have another pump doing it,if your parked up for hours even with the van running it will drain the battery. If I had this kind of work I’d go down the immersion route me personally do a few miles between each job so it gets topped up,these heaters are very very good but you must have 2   charged 110-115 amp hour battery’s in-line for them to provide consistent performance.

[Jonny 87]

I have a 12” piece of hose with a ez snap connector on it I just push it into the air vent in the top of the tank no need to have another pump doing it,if your parked up for hours even with the van running it will drain the battery. If I had this kind of work I’d go down the immersion route me personally do a few miles between each job so it gets topped up,these heaters are very very good but you must have 2   charged 110-115 amp hour battery’s in-line for them to provide consistent performance.

Grippatank provide 2 batteries with their set up, along with B2B relay, so surely if you plugged your van in at night and charged up those batteries that would last all day even if the van didn’t move much?

I could understand if you don’t do much mileage and never bench charge your batteries then you would start to run low, but as daz can run a cable to his van at night then that should get him through no?

[dazmond]

I have a 12” piece of hose with a ez snap connector on it I just push it into the air vent in the top of the tank no need to have another pump doing it,if your parked up for hours even with the van running it will drain the battery. If I had this kind of work I’d go down the immersion route me personally do a few miles between each job so it gets topped up,these heaters are very very good but you must have 2   charged 110-115 amp hour battery’s in-line for them to provide consistent performance.

Grippatank provide 2 batteries with their set up, along with B2B relay, so surely if you plugged your van in at night and charged up those batteries that would last all day even if the van didn’t move much?

I could understand if you don’t do much mileage and never bench charge your batteries then you would start to run low, but as daz can run a cable to his van at night then that should get him through no?

yes jonny.they wouldnt sell these heaters if they kept running the batteries down(thats why grippa install the smart chargers that dont just trickle charge the batteries but gives em more power when needed.)

[dazmond]

I have a 12” piece of hose with a ez snap connector on it I just push it into the air vent in the top of the tank no need to have another pump doing it,if your parked up for hours even with the van running it will drain the battery. If I had this kind of work I’d go down the immersion route me personally do a few miles between each job so it gets topped up,these heaters are very very good but you must have 2   charged 110-115 amp hour battery’s in-line for them to provide consistent performance.

you still havent answered my question?how long does it take to power down when you turn off your pole tap?cheers nigel.

[NWH]

It depends at what stage it’s at if you turn it on with no flow it will go through the initial heat up mode where it heats the header tank up ready to heat the water up that you’ll be putting through it,I would say as soon as you turn off your pole it will start to power down in a couple of minutes or so. Not long after you dead end the pole it will start to slow down and stop pumping diesel into the heater.

[dazmond]

It depends at what stage it’s at if you turn it on with no flow it will go through the initial heat up mode where it heats the header tank up ready to heat the water up that you’ll be putting through it,I would say as soon as you turn off your pole it will start to power down in a couple of minutes or so. Not long after you dead end the pole it will start to slow down and stop pumping diesel into the heater.

ok cheers nigel.most of my work is wfp with very little trad work so in theory as long as i dont keep the pole tap shut off for more than a few mins the heater will keep running until it reaches the set temperature?(once its been through the initial fire up cycle)without going into shut down mode?

what do you do at lunchtime?keep the van running with the heater recirculating water back to the tank?(so the heater is continually running)or turn it off and fire it back up for your afternoons work?

[NWH]

I don’t ever stop for lunch I stop for a tea on the way to the next job as soon as I finish a job I plug back into the tank and drop the flow down to 10 it then heats the header tank water back up to between 50-70 degrees. By doing this as soon as you turn the flow up and plug back in you’ll have hot water almost straight away or within 20-30 seconds.

[dazmond]

cheers nigel.i think ill probably recirculate back to tank at lunchtime with the engine running esp in the colder winter months.

cant wait to get it fitted!not long to wait now.

[Jonny 87]

cheers nigel.i think ill probably recirculate back to tank at lunchtime with the engine running esp in the colder winter months.

cant wait to get it fitted!not long to wait now.

Surely we all have the pole switched off for a couple of minutes atleast though between houses mate, even on compact work. Even if it’s just to have a chat with a customer, write you’re slip to put through the door etc.

I’m gonna make the jump soon, but I think I’m
Going to make sure it’s a 2 man install. So I can have pump 2 constantly feeding the heated water back to the tank, boiler will be constantly running, and then according to others, by lunch time I should be able to just power everything down and have a tank of very hot water left for the afternoon.

For my work, even though it’s compact, I know there’s a couple of minutes here and there that the heater would power down, then the 6 minutes or so that it takes to get to full working temperature again would be a pain.

[The Jester of Wibbly]

I will be running my spare controller all the time back to the tank during compact work.  I will set it running as I leave for my first job.  If I am going to have the system off for 30 mins or more due to lunch or driving I will shut it down.

This way i think by the afternoon what ever water i have left in my tank will be of reasonable temperature to work with without the heater on.

[dazmond]

cheers nigel.i think ill probably recirculate back to tank at lunchtime with the engine running esp in the colder winter months.

cant wait to get it fitted!not long to wait now.

Surely we all have the pole switched off for a couple of minutes atleast though between houses mate, even on compact work. Even if it’s just to have a chat with a customer, write you’re slip to put through the door etc.

I’m gonna make the jump soon, but I think I’m
Going to make sure it’s a 2 man install. So I can have pump 2 constantly feeding the heated water back to the tank, boiler will be constantly running, and then according to others, by lunch time I should be able to just power everything down and have a tank of very hot water left for the afternoon.

For my work, even though it’s compact, I know there’s a couple of minutes here and there that the heater would power down, then the 6 minutes or so that it takes to get to full working temperature again would be a pain.

i never have to write out slips/invoices etc as i sort them the night before.i very rarely talk to a customer (without window cleaning at the same time!)the odd time i do stop working longer than a few mins or so then so be it.6 mins is nothing(half a house)