[Moderator David@stives]

Following on from recent hse posts

I attended the nvq course run by Impact 43, one of the interesting points was.

I asked Andrew what was the correct procedure for climbing onto a flat roof, his answer basically was, "the correct procedure if you had any sense, was to just leave that window and don't clean it"

then gave the following reply

How much could that £1.00 bedroom window above a flat roof cost you if there was to be an accident, i,e one of yous staff had a fall/ you as an owner operator fell on to an old lady coming out of here back door.

That £1.00 could add up to

Loss of earnings
Hospital visits
potential HSE prosecution
Damage to your reputation
potential civil court action
Compensation
Increased insurance premiums
Clients reluctant to employ you
Bad publicity in the papers

Which could typically cost you £100k

Is this all far fetched, or do you think that £1.00 is worth it.

My view is I don't want to clean from flat roofs, but on the odd occassion we are forced into it, I am not comfortable with it, but we do it. We dont clean any windows above flat roofs on domestics, we are now filtering out the commercial ones

I, Personally as an employer I am worried every single day that my boys are out working, we try to tick all the H&S boxes, but there is still an element of fingers crossed and hope.

This is one reason I endeavour to give my staff as much training as is practicably possible

[LBWCS]

Why not stop them driving your vans aswel then? The risk of a road accident is pretty high. The fact is some times it has to be done-keep it safe and infrequent and the odds are reduced a lot

[Steve Sed]

Following on from recent hse posts

I attended the nvq course run by Impact 43, one of the interesting points was.

I asked Andrew what was the correct procedure for climbing onto a flat roof, his answer basically was, "the correct procedure if you had any sense, was to just leave that window and don't clean it"

then gave the following reply

How much could that £1.00 bedroom window above a flat roof cost you if there was to be an accident, i,e one of yous staff had a fall/ you as an owner operator fell on to an old lady coming out of here back door.

That £1.00 could add up to

Loss of earnings
Hospital visits
potential HSE prosecution
Damage to your reputation
potential civil court action
Compensation
Increased insurance premiums
Clients reluctant to employ you
Bad publicity in the papers

Which could typically cost you £100k

Is this all far fetched, or do you think that £1.00 is worth it.

My view is I don't want to clean from flat roofs, but on the odd occassion we are forced into it, I am not comfortable with it, but we do it. We dont clean any windows above flat roofs on domestics, we are now filtering out the commercial ones

I, Personally as an employer I am worried every single day that my boys are out working, we try to tick all the H&S boxes, but there is still an element of fingers crossed and hope.

This is one reason I endeavour to give my staff as much training as is practicably possible

But David Willis stated that in order to stay within the law we should not clean off flat roofs. So his starting point is that you breach H&S law by doing so and from that the consequences you listed would obviously follow. We know that this is not true, so he has had an impact on your business based upon his misunderstanding of the law. If I were you I would be mightily cheesed off with him.

[Moderator David@stives]

Steve

You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.

I was always struggling with flat roofs, long before that course

I would be more cheesed off if someone said it was ok to climb on flat roofs, and I had an accident,

As for driving, it is now an accepted part of the modern world, climbing on flat roofs when you dont have to, is different altogether, although driving is now subject to risk assessment, by employers

[Steve Sed]

Steve

You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.

Even if not, if his advice starts with the premise that it is illegal to work from flat roofs, then following that he would not be teaching how to safely work on them. I would rather be told how to safely do something and make my own decision rather than be told that I can't do something because it is unlawful, when it isn't.

What next, tree surgeons leaving the awkward shoots because they involve a little more thought/effort to reach? To me, leaving a window that I can perfectly safely reach just because in order to clean it involves getting onto a perfectly safe flat roof is the same as leaving awkward to reach shoot on a tree I am supposed to prune - an incomplete job.

[Window Washers]

Steve

You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.

Even if not, if his advice starts with the premise that it is illegal to work from flat roofs, then following that he would not be teaching how to safely work on them. I would rather be told how to safely do something and make my own decision rather than be told that I can't do something because it is unlawful, when it isn't.

What next, tree surgeons leaving the awkward shoots because they involve a little more thought/effort to reach? To me, leaving a window that I can perfectly safely reach just because in order to clean it involves getting onto a perfectly safe flat roof is the same as leaving awkward to reach shoot on a tree I am supposed to prune - an incomplete job.

have you ever fallen from a flat roof do you employ ?

[formb]

Steve

You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.

Even if not, if his advice starts with the premise that it is illegal to work from flat roofs, then following that he would not be teaching how to safely work on them. I would rather be told how to safely do something and make my own decision rather than be told that I can't do something because it is unlawful, when it isn't.

What next, tree surgeons leaving the awkward shoots because they involve a little more thought/effort to reach? To me, leaving a window that I can perfectly safely reach just because in order to clean it involves getting onto a perfectly safe flat roof is the same as leaving awkward to reach shoot on a tree I am supposed to prune - an incomplete job.

If what Mr Willis said is true, or even if it becomes true in future, and flat roof cleaning is banned it will become a massive step backwards for the window cleaning industry.

I have been involved with window cleaning since 1992, in that time the industry has shifted from one man outfits (a guy with a ladder and a bucket) to the larger more professional outfits we see nowadays.

Think about it, if you were to employ someone to clean your house windows and the HSE compliant 'professional' company told you they could not clean certain windows due to HSE rules there will be someone out there who doesn't give a monkeys about the HSE and will clean them, probably for less money. Who would you choose? This would just open the door to cowboys.

I would rather pay for training that would cover this sort of thing, than fork out money for someone to tell me just to leave the window altogether, even if the initial advice is to do your utmost to avoid flat roofs.

Personally I don't even carry ladders any more, and we don't clean from flat roofs as a general rule, but all the training in working from height, manual handling etc we have had has covered the issue rather than just avoid it altogether.

Surely a safety training course which misses a huge safety issue out altogether is only going to add to the problem? People will continue to clean from flat roofs whether the HSE says they are 'allowed' or not.

[Moderator David@stives]

Why did I bring flat roofs into it ?

From my POV, you can't climb safely onto and off a flat roof, with just a temporary ladder and no other safety measures. Every time i get off a flat roof on to a ladder, there is always a moment where i say please dont slip as I step onto the ladder

That Tree surgeon, will probably have the full kit, properly trained, harnesses and climbing ropes etc. maybe even an nvq in tree surgery

[robertphil]

when i took out employee liability insurance they asked,are you a ladder type firm or a water pole type firm, they based the premiums on which one i was.  it sounded to me as if you cannot be both 

[rycalshaw]

i wish we could stop all this bl***y big brother culture and go back to letting intelligent adults make common sense decisions and if we make a bad decision and have a fall we have to take responsibility for it..simples

[stuart mc]

Why did I bring flat roofs into it ?

From my POV, you can't climb safely onto and off a flat roof, with just a temporary ladder and no other safety measures. Every time i get off a flat roof on to a ladder, there is always a moment where i say please dont slip as I step onto the ladder

That Tree surgeon, will probably have the full kit, properly trained, harnesses and climbing ropes etc. maybe even an nvq in tree surgery

I know what you are getting at, that is why I bought a ladder standoff that sits on the roof, this stops the chance of ladders slipping backwards and improves the chances of ladder spin. I never done this in the past as my ladder stand off was heavy and awkward, but the newer ones are very light and easy to handle and I just leave it on the ladder permanently for the few occasions I use it.

a job I am doing tomorrow has a full floor of about 100 windows that requires a ladder to get up to the roof, once up there, there is a safety rail and safety wire which we hook onto with full body harness,

in hindsight if it was my contract I would insist on an eye bolt fitted so the ladder could be strapped to the wall, but it isn't and there isn't

[richard jagger]

Why is a flat roof such a risk. Excuse my ignorance that a slanted roof does not have? Like so many house have at the front or back extensions. Climbing of any roof on to a ladder is a risk to me so I always secure the ladder to the wall. The give me the security feeling when I climb down. When I first started window cleaning I did not like walking on a flat roof as I would not know if the timber base was strong enough to support my weight.

[[GQC] Tim]

Oh no, a flat roof, run for your life!!  

Don't mean to ruin your topic Dave, but it's all bit ludicrous if you ask me. C'mon now people. Lets all use our brains for a minute before we do something.

[Moderator David@stives]

I know it might be ludicrous, but if one of my guys fell then i would have to deal with all the issues raised in the original post.

hence the true cost of an accident

[[GQC] Tim]

I know it might be ludicrous, but if one of my guys fell then i would have to deal with all the issues raised in the original post.

hence the true cost of an accident

Should you really employ them if they lack the IQ to work from a flat roof safely?

This whole stuff is really getting on my nerves, it's really beyond belief.

[Smudger]

altho over the top i see where Dave is coming from - i get that 'wheres the ladder going feeling' when stepping back
on even when i know it's well grounded and footed. 

i would out of any ladder work be happiest going from ladder to flat roof and back than any other ladder work
(ie cleaning  a window off ladders - and i certainly wouldn't step off a ladder onto a pitched roof)

it's not about what you feel is right or wrong but if the worst happens it's what HSE will decide was right/wrong or
indiffrent. - on the few windows i have that are totally impossible to get wfp from the ground i will do while
some1 foots the ladder - no staff use ladders

Mr Souter also has a point - i recently quoted a 3 storey gutter clear ( rented out flats ) - easy front but rear difficault access due to glass porch/greenhouse affair - priced it up using gutter vac - insured - HSE etc..

job went to some1 who was prepared to do it cheaper and hiring a 3 meter triple ladder - no insurance etc..

so the same could apply to flat roof working...

I fell from a ladder 15ft for a £5 job - lucky enough i suffered brusing only - so changed to wfp and take every care on H&S i can

Darran

[Moderator David@stives]

QCF

Ok I will employ more intelligent window cleaners from now on, why didn't i think of that sooner ?

[[GQC] Tim]

QCF

Ok I will employ more intelligent window cleaners from now on, why didn't i think of that sooner ?

Good, no more worries then.

[Alex Wingrove]

I think more accidents a caused by accidentally poking yourself in the eye with safety glasses than falling from a flat roof.

Oh at btw, I charge more than £1 per window

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

I once had to hold the head still of a man who had fallen through a sky light that was fitted into a flat foof. The skylight was covered with leaves and he did not know it was there.
I held his head still while we waited for the ambulance. He had fallen onto a bare concrete floor. The result was a broken cheek bone, fractured skull, broken back in 2 places, broken pelvis and a broken leg and ankle.
It was his second day on the job.
I did not really find out what had happened to him (he was a sub contractor to the company I was working for) until a chance meeting some years later. Thankfully he survived.
He now walks still with crutches (over 12 years on) and will never work again. He was around 30 years of age at the time.
The HSE fined the company I was working for over the incident.
ACCIDENT CAN AND DO HAPPEN.