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Window Washers

  • Posts: 9036
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2012, 11:08:15 am »
Guidance from HSE site

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf

I quoted this on the other thread to show David Willis that working on flat roofs did not breach HSE guidelines.
Steve could you explain step by step what you do when working on a flat roof and how you access it starting with the equipment you use. I would be interested to see the points your making
If your not willing to learn, No one can help you, If you are determined to learn, No one can stop you ;)

James Leet

  • Posts: 273
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2012, 01:24:58 pm »
So we cannot work on flat roofs now then  ;D

This gets better and better

I am now worried about people walking down the road, afterall they might trip on the curb stone

Do we really need people like Mr Willis telling us we cannot work on flat roofs ? f

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2012, 02:27:45 pm »
He didn't say we can't, just says way up the cost first if something goes wrong

Window Washers

  • Posts: 9036
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2012, 02:53:16 pm »
Yep they! do my friend and best mates foster dad I grew up with died last year falling off a ledge when stepping back on a ladder he had been on ladders over 30 years my friends held his head together till the amulance arrived another had to break his leg more as he was hnging upside down, he never regained consciousness again god rest his soul he was pronounced dead at the hospitlal he left behind 6 kids 2 of which were under 5 very sad it was shocking to be called an told this, then having to tell my friend the guy he looked at like his dad was dead.  If this sends chills down your spine and makes you think seriously then good as accidents really do happen and can happen to you or anyone.
The old saying "it is better to be safe than sorry" rings true don't you think
If your not willing to learn, No one can help you, If you are determined to learn, No one can stop you ;)

formb

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2012, 09:05:10 am »
He didn't say we can't, just says way up the cost first if something goes wrong

OK he maybe never directly said you can't:


The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs

Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole

What’s going to effect a lot of the Clean It Up sole traders is not having clear understanding of what’s right and wrong.

You only have to look at some of the posts we get about the course and Impact to see a lot of these traders are going to have problems.

You can’t make sound decisions if you don’t have the correct information.

What is for sure, the policing of compliance will get stricter.

The HSE and the EHO in particular will have a revenue stream, this will create a proactive drive in enforcement.
 
If you get caught working unsafely it’s going to cost you as cleaner.

I am sure already your reading between the lines, they are going to be a lot more vigilant.  

The implication is there though.


The thing that worries me is, he is identifying flat roofs as a safety issue but does not address the issue as to how they should be dealt with.

Sorry but 'just don't do it' doesn't cut it.  

Are you telling me that every window above a flat roof in the country, nay the world should remain dirty until the power of levitation is conquered?

What if other industries started employing this attitude? If more safety equipment is required then I'd expect a training course to tell me exactly what, why and how. As many of you have pointed out this is a major issue in our industry. Accidents happen.

There are windows above flat roofs: FACT
We are professional window cleaners: (mostly) FACT
We should be equipped to clean windows: (surely) FACT

I agree that all risks should be avoided wherever possible. But Impact 43 is a window cleaning specific safety training company, it should cover all safety issues that arise when cleaning windows.

I am not saying Mr Willis is wrong in telling his customers to avoid flat roofs wherever possible, I'm just saying that cleaning from flat roofs is part of the window cleaning industry, and to simply say 'don't do it' is missing the point.

Steve Sed

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2012, 09:55:07 am »
Guidance from HSE site

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf

I quoted this on the other thread to show David Willis that working on flat roofs did not breach HSE guidelines.
Steve could you explain step by step what you do when working on a flat roof and how you access it starting with the equipment you use. I would be interested to see the points your making
I put a ladder up, I climb up the ladder and step on the roof. I walk to the window, I clean it. I walk back to the ladder. I climb down it. I put the ladder away.

Then I get in my van and head off behind the man with the red flag.  ::)

Dave Willis

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2012, 03:43:42 pm »
Today I worked from a flat roof (and survived) I used my ladder with stabilizers stepped off and cleaned a large residential window. The only time I was near the edge was to climb back down the ladder.

Have I broken the law?
If so, what happens now?

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2012, 06:22:46 pm »


It's not correct to say anyone is "Breaking the law" as you put it.
H&S regs are there as a protecion and are mostly applied after the event of an accident at which point there may/may not be a fine/cost levied if blame can be attributed.

As a responsible person a single self employed person will do all he can to not cause an accident, either to himself or anyone else.
If an accident occurs their will be a cost, either because he has injured himself, injured someone else or caused damage.

If he has insurance they will no doubt try to get out of paying if they can. They do this by looking at your work practice and if it is contry to H&S regs you can be sure their lawyers will find it. If however it is a small claim it may be cheaper to settle rather than look into it.

As an employer it is a different matter to some degree.
The employer has a duty of care to the employee and therefore should take seriously this duty of care.
That may be by providing sufficient breaks, equality or the H&S of the employee. They also have to care for the welfare of the employee. This is covered in NEBOSH.

If an accident occurs there will again be a cost, be it to the employee, someone else or property.
The cost is now greater as the insurance company will again see if they can get out of it, plus the employee will remain a cost to the employer either through wages or because they have to train someone new.
They could also sue if they wanted claiming lack of care or training or whatever.

Add to that the point that if an accident happens to an employee and they are off for so many days it has to be reported to the HSE.

There is now a cost in the time taken up just investigating let alone the cost of any fine.

From that point of view the OP make a very good point, Is it worth the cost?

So how do we assess it?

For a single self employed person with only himself to think about the prosess is simple. More complex for the employer however.

What I think many mistakenly do is presume they have to take every job that comes along. It's not what the Dragons do on DD.

They look at the offer and if they dont like it they dont get involved, if they do but have reservations they counter offer at a more favorable rate for them.
If its a 'no-brainer' they compete for the investment.

They want to make as much money for as little risk as possible.

Window cleaning is no different, make as much money for as little risk. It may mean we have to weigh things in the balance and reject a job.

For me that is now to refuse ladder access work. Why? Because it isnt worth the risk.

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2012, 06:37:35 pm »
From an employer's viewpoint, any safety issue is a nightmare.  All physical activity involves an element of risk and the Health and Safety circus, along with the spin-off training industry will never be able to eliminate every risk so the employer will always be the target of unscrupulous litigation.

The more I hear of the ever escalating mountain of regulations, the more I am convinced that Health and Safety has become a self propagating entity - regulations beget more regulations until we will all, in every walk of life, drown in them.

The individual is no longer allowed to accept responsibility for his/her own safety: in any situation we will all be required to adhere to regulations laid down by someone else.

This is attacking the problem from completely the wrong angle: we are all being viewed as incompetent to make informed decisions for ourselves, everything must be seen in the light of someone else's opinion as to how we should behave.

The result of this thinking is that no-one is actually responsible for their own mishaps.  Regardless of what foolhardy or reckless actions they undertake, it isn't their fault for doing it, the fault lies with someone else for not ensuring they were given the 'proper' training for whatever specific activity resulted in the accident.

WE ARE ALL GIVEN TRAINING IN SELF PRESERVATION.  It's called 'growing up' - the experiences we get through the process of advancing from the innocence of the infant to the point where, as adults, our life experiences equip us to make informed and sensible decisions regarding our personal safety. If we ignore what experience tells us and take avoidable risks which result in injury, then we have only ourselves to blame.

To put this in terms of the 'flat roof' situation:

We do not need training to teach us that falling from a flat roof is dangerous.  As sensible and competent adults, we are quite capable of making the decision not to approach the edge of the roof as that increases the risk of falling off.  We can also appreciate the increase in danger if there is a hurricane blowing.  What we need is suggestion and advice "It might be safer if you were to attach yourself via a lanyard to a secure anchor point" etc.  Having been given the advice our decision is then ours, and ours alone - we should not be required, by law, to follow that advice.

To illustrate:

Last week one of my franchisees fell in exactly the situation as being discussed here.  He wanted to clean a window above a flat roof and used a ladder to access the roof.  As he approached the top of the ladder the foot slid away, causing him to fall.

Now: when he joined us I gave him the benefit of my long experience in the safe use of ladders.  In other words, I gave him advice.  One piece of advice (amongst many others) was that before he climbed a ladder it would be sensible to test the ground with his foot, to see if it were slippery or not, and to use his own experience to decide as to suitable grounding for the ladder. You don't need to be told that setting a ladder on ice is not a good idea, or on greasy concrete, or (as in this case) on damp decking!!  I gave him all the advice he needed to form decisions regarding his own safety.  In other words, I trained him.

He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell.  Should that be a criminal offence?  

I reminded him of what he had been told (and the exhaustive practical exercises) and said what I truly believe:  EVERY FALL FROM A LADDER IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE USER.  He agreed with me.

I do not believe that the above should be the subject of reams of legislation, all that does is relieves the individual of his own culpability.

As a completely different aspect of personal health and safety I think there is an element of hypocrisy in current thinking.  We are under legal requirement to adhere to regulations preventing us (supposedly) from taking all sorts of risks and yet the Government turns a blind eye to one of the most destructive risks of all: Smoking.

How does deliberately inhaling lungsful of toxins and carcinogenics differ from deliberately standing on the edge of a flat roof?  Either can (and in the case of smoking probably will) kill you.  Why is the one ignored, while the other is treated as a heinous offence?



  

trevor perry

  • Posts: 2454
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2012, 06:54:39 pm »
From an employer's viewpoint, any safety issue is a nightmare.  All physical activity involves an element of risk and the Health and Safety circus, along with the spin-off training industry will never be able to eliminate every risk so the employer will always be the target of unscrupulous litigation.

The more I hear of the ever escalating mountain of regulations, the more I am convinced that Health and Safety has become a self propagating entity - regulations beget more regulations until we will all, in every walk of life, drown in them.

The individual is no longer allowed to accept responsibility for his/her own safety: in any situation we will all be required to adhere to regulations laid down by someone else.

This is attacking the problem from completely the wrong angle: we are all being viewed as incompetent to make informed decisions for ourselves, everything must be seen in the light of someone else's opinion as to how we should behave.

The result of this thinking is that no-one is actually responsible for their own mishaps.  Regardless of what foolhardy or reckless actions they undertake, it isn't their fault for doing it, the fault lies with someone else for not ensuring they were given the 'proper' training for whatever specific activity resulted in the accident.

WE ARE ALL GIVEN TRAINING IN SELF PRESERVATION.  It's called 'growing up' - the experiences we get through the process of advancing from the innocence of the infant to the point where, as adults, our life experiences equip us to make informed and sensible decisions regarding our personal safety. If we ignore what experience tells us and take avoidable risks which result in injury, then we have only ourselves to blame.

To put this in terms of the 'flat roof' situation:

We do not need training to teach us that falling from a flat roof is dangerous.  As sensible and competent adults, we are quite capable of making the decision not to approach the edge of the roof as that increases the risk of falling off.  We can also appreciate the increase in danger if there is a hurricane blowing.  What we need is suggestion and advice "It might be safer if you were to attach yourself via a lanyard to a secure anchor point" etc.  Having been given the advice our decision is then ours, and ours alone - we should not be required, by law, to follow that advice.

To illustrate:

Last week one of my franchisees fell in exactly the situation as being discussed here.  He wanted to clean a window above a flat roof and used a ladder to access the roof.  As he approached the top of the ladder the foot slid away, causing him to fall.

Now: when he joined us I gave him the benefit of my long experience in the safe use of ladders.  In other words, I gave him advice.  One piece of advice (amongst many others) was that before he climbed a ladder it would be sensible to test the ground with his foot, to see if it were slippery or not, and to use his own experience to decide as to suitable grounding for the ladder. You don't need to be told that setting a ladder on ice is not a good idea, or on greasy concrete, or (as in this case) on damp decking!!  I gave him all the advice he needed to form decisions regarding his own safety.  In other words, I trained him.

He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell.  Should that be a criminal offence?  

I reminded him of what he had been told (and the exhaustive practical exercises) and said what I truly believe:  EVERY FALL FROM A LADDER IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE USER.  He agreed with me.

I do not believe that the above should be the subject of reams of legislation, all that does is relieves the individual of his own culpability.

As a completely different aspect of personal health and safety I think there is an element of hypocrisy in current thinking.  We are under legal requirement to adhere to regulations preventing us (supposedly) from taking all sorts of risks and yet the Government turns a blind eye to one of the most destructive risks of all: Smoking.

How does deliberately inhaling lungsful of toxins and carcinogenics differ from deliberately standing on the edge of a flat roof?  Either can (and in the case of smoking probably will) kill you.  Why is the one ignored, while the other is treated as a heinous offence?



  

 I think this is the best post of the whole discussion showing true COMMON SENSE but unfortunately this is not the world we live in now so have no option but to adapt accordingly, as you rightly stated there are hundreds of issues far worse than what we are discussing that seem to get the go ahead whilst knowingly killing thousands of people ???
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove any doubt

Dave Willis

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2012, 07:47:37 pm »
Precisely, much of it boils down to money (particularly with smoking). We really are in a no win situation it seems. Because there are no hard and fast rules with health and safety it would appear the blame can be pushed all over the place from the operator to the employer and onwards to the householder - it could even be suggested his decking wasn't kept in a safe condition.

Dave Willis

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2012, 07:50:49 pm »
Incidentally did anyone see the Indian Oceans programme over the weekend? They showed the ship scrapyards in India where they reckon eight workers a month die due to falls mostly from the hulks.

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2012, 09:31:08 pm »
Thanks for that post Ian.

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2012, 02:08:25 pm »
A great post Ian as usual.
 I really believe that most health and safety issues are driven by insurance companies that want to minimise risk, they want your money but don't want to pay out on any claim.
 If the activity that you are engaged in during your leisure activities is not covered by any insurance policy, you can do whatever the hell you like.
I have never had to make a claim in all my years of window cleaning, I do however own my own house outright, and have too much to lose by doing anything that wouldn't be covered by my policy. I have now only one flat roof that I have to get onto and will filter this out shortly.

Suppose jack the lad notices that his flat roof has developed a leak. I'm sure we have all encountered the old felt roof laid over chipboard. Jack hatches a plan to replace his roof at your expense, so he askes for and accepts your qote. You can see where I'm coming from, and it's so easy for him to set you up unless you have already considered this possibility.
So it's not only the risk to safety we have to take into account when considering the cost, just getting on a flat roof can be very expensive too.
My main worry is access to balconies, I hate doing them but they do pay well. I always do these myself as my lad hates height, but at the age of 70 I really have to consider how much longer I can do this type of work. If I fell 10 ft these days I would be like humpty bloody dumpty.

formb

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2012, 02:23:36 pm »

He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell.  Should that be a criminal offence?  
  

Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.

Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.

Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.

The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2012, 02:52:20 pm »

He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell.  Should that be a criminal offence?  
  

Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.

Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.

Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.

The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.

You are in Scotland. What are you doing with suncream..?

Spruce

  • Posts: 8628
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2012, 03:27:43 pm »
Short-duration work on flat roofs
‘Short duration’ means a matter of minutes rather than hours. It includes such
jobs as brief inspections or minor adjustment to a television aerial. Work on a flat
roof is still dangerous even if it only lasts a short time. Appropriate safety
measures are essential.
It may not be reasonably practicable to provide edge protection during shortduration work. The minimum requirements for short-duration work on a roof are:
■ a safe means of access to the roof level; and
■ a safe means of working on the roof – a harness with a sufficiently short lanyard
that it prevents the wearer from reaching a position from which they could fall
and attached to a secure anchorage.Where safety harnesses are used they must be:
■ appropriate for the user and in good condition;
■ securely attached to an anchorage point of sufficient strength; and
■ actually used – tight management discipline is needed to ensure this.

Trouble is that these things have to be tested by a qualified person with the right equipment annually with regard to commercial. The call out fee and test costs over £400.00 + VAT. I don't know what the story is for residential. Our Middlesbrough Council had a whole lot of ladder tieoffs installed into their council houses so workmen could secure their ladders. This must have been 10 years ago.

I have seen a few trad cleaners about over the years, but never seen them use these anchor points and don't even know if they are tested annually.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2012, 11:13:10 pm »

He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell.  Should that be a criminal offence?  
  

Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.

Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.

Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.

The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.

As it happens I have a solution to your problems............ ;D

formb

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2012, 09:00:44 am »

He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell.  Should that be a criminal offence?  
  

Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.

Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.

Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.

The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.

As it happens I have a solution to your problems............ ;D

Care to elaborate?

Re: The price of an accident
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2012, 10:14:41 am »
Franchise I would presume rather than employ.