[Londoner]

18k a year is sod all, if i was he i would leave set up on my own and take as many custys as i could get with me

EXACTLY!  £18K is not enough to keep anyone with half a brain. The national average wage is £26K.

on what planet is this average wage, because it is not in the UK.

 My wife went to uni for 4 years and doesnt get that amount yet in second year of working, so maybe looking at wild figures from people that survery the rich is not the best place to look for real figures

Depends where you live I suppose. Where are you?

[richywilts]

at the minute hes on £7 an hour which was agreed when he joined some 6 months ago, so ive offered him a fairly decent wage, this lad has made a point of just wanting to know what hes going to get each month, but then wants a third which is stupid coz what if we have a down day or a down week

for all the people saying i havent got a clue etc il admit iv took my eye of the ball a little but taking steps now to correct it with the two staff leaving we have a new accountant in place, im waiting to put all my database bk on window cleaner pro coz the new software is too time consuming and difficult to run for a window cleaning business

its not been an ideal year to say the least but its being stripped back and i will be back on tools etc im trying to be positive were coming into a  nice time of year got some nice contracts in the pipeline, the domestic round will be getting refined and price increases will be getting introduced and planning on getting our good rounds more compact.

i agree a business plan needs to be introduced and kept too or il will be facing ruin.

[Dave Willis]

Blimey, that's the first post from Richy that actually makes any sense at all! You're getting there. The important thing in my mind is that you get back on the tools as soon as possible and keep track of everything. Then, you can have a very lucrative business.

[Alistair@AWC]

but then wants a third which is stupid coz what if we have a down day or a down week

He wouldn't get paid

[Dave Willis]

that's the drawback of employing. can't be helped just get on with it. Same as when he takes his holidays - richy is going to have to work his nuts off to keep up whilst matey sits on the beach.  

Turn it around the other way and Matey is obviously a bit miffed if he's turning over £1300 a week for six days Whilst Richy swings about on his chair chatting on ciu paying £350 a week. Can't see it lasting much longer especially if he logs on here one night!

[CLEANCARE WC]

but then wants a third which is stupid coz what if we have a down day or a down week

He wouldn't get paid

I dont think you can do this because if he is employed (which he would have to be) he is entitled to holiday,ssp, and all the trimmings. The only way I see to do it where Richy is the definate winner is low basic and bonus for hitting targets. wages paid at the end of the month so you can look back on month and if we have been frozen off work for two weeks you only need to pay the monthly basic. the bonus would be paid out after the monthly total was hit otherwise you could pay out bonus on week 1 then be off work for 2 still paying his basic= Richy out of pocket. SINCE WHEN DO MCDONALDS OR A GARAGE OR ANY OTHER BUSINESS DIVVY UP THE TAKINGS WITH STAFF? AND 33% OF TURNOVER? NEVERMIND PROFIT? I DONT THINK SO.

[William McCafferty]

First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.

Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.

Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.

I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.

You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.

So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.

If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.

Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.

These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.

At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.

I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.

[CLEANCARE WC]

First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.

Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.

Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.

I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.

You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.

So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.

If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.

Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.

These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.

At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.

I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.

Seems we are on the same page. I dont employ but if I did this is what I would do.

[richywilts]

First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.

Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.

Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.

I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.

You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.

So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.

If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.

Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.

These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.

At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.

I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.

good post mate thanks

what sort of bonus structure do you have in place

he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads

[CLEANCARE WC]

First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.

Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.

Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.

I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.

You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.

So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.

If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.

Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.

These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.

At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.

I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.

good post mate thanks

what sort of bonus structure do you have in place

he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads

well whoever he is working for is an idiot or he is lying? at 40% after diesel for the day etc the round owner will be earning absolutely nothing out of your ex employee or close to it

[William McCafferty]

The bonus is paid at 30% of any work compleated minus £1000 per month.

So for example in January they have a turnover for the company of £900 because of bad weather, then they just get their basic salary, then in febuary they have a turnover of £1200, then they get their basic salary for the first £1000 and 30% on the remaining £200 = £60

This is the model I use, and all the staff are happy with it.

[William McCafferty]

First of all, Richy needs to have in place a correctly worded contract of employment, they normally cost between £600 and £1000 depending on who does it and what you want in it.

Part of this contract would cover wages and hours of work, any employee who wants to question their wage would be pointed to the relevant paragraph.

Good staff are like rocking horse poop, and if you find one then try and keep them, but being strong armed is not the right way to go, because once he gets away with it, how long before he comes back to the table with more amendments to his contract of employment.

I use to pay my staff a daily rate, but I found that this was a unfair method for me and my staff, for instance if they cannot work due to breakdown or weather, then they never got paid. this is ok in the summer but come winter, they end up losing.

You have to think of them as well as your profits, they need to earn a certain amount to live, if they don't work and get paid for 1 day a week, it doesn't mean that their living costs drops by the same amount.

So now I pay all my staff a salary wage, this is set at the minimum wage of £6.08 times by 44 hours a week (this is was what my HR company say I needed to do) = £267.52 or £1160 a month.

If they cannot work because of bad weather then they still have a wage at the end of the month, that they can budget too, if there is a breakdown, well they can drop leaflets or doorknock, instead of cleaning.

Of course if you the boss are making a fortune from your staff, then they are more likely to either leave or their quality of workmanship will drop, so I also offer bonuses.

These are paid out on what they have done in the previous month, so even if they have lost a day or two in the month because of whatever reason, they still have the chance to catch up with the workload.

At the moment I set the wage bill with bonuses and employers taxes and costs at a third of my turnover.

I think this is a fair way for me and my staff, but if I still had someone who wanted more, then its the highway for him/her.

good post mate thanks

what sort of bonus structure do you have in place

he was quite happy working 8-5 every day on £7, now the lad who has left has gone into a cash in hand traditional job n gets 40% of what they do i think its made andy think what he could be earning but its totally unrealistic with my overheads

well whoever he is working for is an idiot or he is lying? at 40% after diesel for the day etc the round owner will be earning absolutely nothing out of your ex employee or close to it

I totally agree, this guy is now earning less than his staff, it would be better if he just downsized on the work and still earn the same amount of money, but for less effort.

Its not really rocket science

[Dave Willis]

  £1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.

[William McCafferty]

£1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.

sorry you are right, it works on a weekly figure of £1000 per week divided by 12 months = £4333 per month

[colley614]

Richy your business plan and cash flow forecast needs to be your bible. Especially with a business model your size. The chances are you can get away with it if all you needed to pay for was, van insurance, public liability, a few squeegee blades and some soap. The truth is though you need to know you wage bill, your rent and rates on the unit, your utility bills, the cost to run your vehicles. Every penny of what your business will cost itself the key here is itself and not you.
I don't care what anyone else says on here if you've got a business plan and cash flow forecast and you stick to them to the letter. I bet you can double in size every year if you want to. Even if your loosing money at the moment sitting down and sorting it out sooner rather than later is the best way. Trust me I left it too late and ended up having to get a job and borrowing nearly £10k to pay debts off because I kept on carrying on regardless thinking I would get there in the end.
If you want me to help you do a business plan and cash flow forecast with you I'd be more than happy to.

[Dave Willis]

£1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.

sorry you are right, it works on a weekly figure of £1000 per week divided by 12 months = £4333 per month

Of course  Oh God not another one!

[William McCafferty]

£1000 a month seems a bit low. Richy is talking of £1300 a week.
I suppose he could use a similar system weekly.

sorry you are right, it works on a weekly figure of £1000 per week divided by 12 months = £4333 per month

Of course  Oh God not another one!

unlike you dave, I don't have disasters following me all over the place, all of my equipment works, all the time, when I crash a van, I still carry on working with the back up vechicle supplier straightaway by the insurance company, and having a employee cleaning £1000 a week is very realistic.

or then again that normally only happens in La La land :

[g.brookes]

£7 an hour is fine in my opinion.  All he is doing is a manual labour job.  It takes a week max to get wfp up to scratch and after that its just repetitive work like any other labouring job.  He doesnt have to do anything other than clean the windows.
Youre the one getting the work, doing the quotes, sorting out the books, and pricing etc.
Everyone keeps going on about how much he makes you in a day, but a large part of that is the quality, well priced compact work that you have set on his lap.  If your round was not as good, he could still be working flat out all day but only take £150, and then he'd probably be happy with £7 an hour.
there is no skill or risk in what he does for you.  From the sounds of things he has a good attitude i.e turns up on time and does the work requested.  that is not rocket science, and should be expected from anyone you employ.  if he continues to kick up a fuss, just give him an extra tenner a day if he completes all the work set.  that shouldnt dent your profits too much but should also keep him happy.
payin him more money wont solve anything, he may just up and quit in a few months anyway for a completely different reason anyway

[John F]

£7 an hour is fine in my opinion.  All he is doing is a manual labour job.  It takes a week max to get wfp up to scratch and after that its just repetitive work like any other labouring job.  He doesnt have to do anything other than clean the windows.
Youre the one getting the work, doing the quotes, sorting out the books, and pricing etc.
Everyone keeps going on about how much he makes you in a day, but a large part of that is the quality, well priced compact work that you have set on his lap.  If your round was not as good, he could still be working flat out all day but only take £150, and then he'd probably be happy with £7 an hour.
there is no skill or risk in what he does for you.  From the sounds of things he has a good attitude i.e turns up on time and does the work requested.  that is not rocket science, and should be expected from anyone you employ.  if he continues to kick up a fuss, just give him an extra tenner a day if he completes all the work set.  that shouldnt dent your profits too much but should also keep him happy.
payin him more money wont solve anything, he may just up and quit in a few months anyway for a completely different reason anyway

well said that man. totally agree.

[Roy Cauldery]

its an employers market at the moment
as above,its manual labour and forget targets and daily rates
You have agreed a salary with him and thats that-nothing else to add
If he doesnt think that his salary is enough-suggest that he try his luck back out on the job market
Who runs your business??
There are plenty of hard working guys(and gals)desperate for monthly income out there especially if he gets the luxury of taking van home etc....
18k is a good wage in current circumstances
You could get a trainee via the job centre for a lot less,you can drive the van and the goverment would pay part of their salary
Time to call the shots cos it sounds like his gonna jump ship anyway(esp.if he logs onto here and has read previous posts)

Good luck

Roy