Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sir Squeaky on August 24, 2006, 06:16:42 pm
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Hello folks.
The other day (and many other times), it was mentioned by Ian Giles that the average 3 pane window will take about 90 seconds, and how much faster wfp is.
I thought that seemed rather a long time.
I said that I could do most leaded faster than squeegee in most cases (unless they're really greasy).
Again I was told that was rubbish and wfp was 3 times quicker again.
So.....
Today I had a house with 3 pane leadeds, and one next door with squeegee windows, so a test beckoned..... two of each.
The two squeegee windows took 52 seconds and 49 seconds.
The two leaded windows took 45 seconds and 50 seconds.
Success! :D
The whole houses?
Leaded.......11 minutes,
Squeegee...13 minutes.
Don't start arguing now, just an observation..... ;D
Rog.
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totally agree squeaky i use a microfibre damp and an almost dry scrim and agree its verry quick .
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Spot on Rog couldnt agree more
Jeff
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so you spent 24 mins doing 2 houses with those windows - wfp you're looking at around 12-15 mins, just an observation!
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so you spent 24 mins doing 2 houses with those windows - wfp you're looking at around 12-15 mins, just an observation!
yes and twenty minutes setting your pole up and an hour wondering if they will dry allright .
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pole takes like 10 secs to get out and set up, how long does it take you to set your ladder against the wall, stabilise it (like you are supposed to) and climb up and down the ladder along with cleaning the window - mate most of us have been trad at some stage, I don't knock trad but there is no way on earth you could ever convince me of trad being quicker or better than wfp.
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Squeeky,
I use wfp on leaded, and i must confess i find it only marginally quicker than trad, but the big plus for me, it,s much less hard work, and it,s work i can confidently walk away from without worrying how they will dry.
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Jeff, you're right, leaded would be less hard work with wfp.
Can't disagree with that.
Quicker in some cases maybe.
But it doesn't take ten seconds to put all your stuff away and drive across the road and take it all out again.
Better?
Never on earth. ::)
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aw come on squeeky, until you have worked with wfp for a week or so you don't really know mate - you may have seen a bad operator work with wfp but trust me if you seen the work we do with wfp then you will change your mind, we do all typesof work, nearly all wfp, better results 95% of the time, faster, safer, less tiring. Give it a go, keep your g/friend happy in knowing that you're not going to fall off a ladder.
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" but It doesnt take ten seconds to put all your stuff away and drive across the road and take it all out again "
I agree, and if you have a van mount you cant always park near your next job on residential work.
As i have said before wfp is just another tool to be used, excellent anywhere you can get a good run, and far superior on commercial work. I dont have any problem working with trad or wfp, it was still money well spent for me.
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aw come on squeeky, until you have worked with wfp for a week or so you don't really know mate - you may have seen a bad operator work with wfp but trust me if you seen the work we do with wfp then you will change your mind
I've seen loads of results,and I've had loads of potential customers make sure I don't use it, before asking me.
I've got plenty of ex-wfp jobs.
It doesn't impress me, sorry. :-\
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oh I agree that there is a place for trad - we still use it on shop windows etc, but if you're residential then trad can't compete - not in my eyes anyway, suppose if you did have one job here and one over there then trad may be quicker but wouldn't a backpack be much better (cue Tosh).
aw come on squeeky, until you have worked with wfp for a week or so you don't really know mate - you may have seen a bad operator work with wfp but trust me if you seen the work we do with wfp then you will change your mind
I've seen loads of results,and I've had loads of potential customers make sure I don't use it, before asking me.
I've got plenty of ex-wfp jobs.
It doesn't impress me, sorry. :-\
Then you've seen lots of bad jobs by a number of bad wfp'ers, why do you think so many on here have made the switch?
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I've seen loads of results,and I've had loads of potential customers make sure I don't use it, before asking me.
I've got plenty of ex-wfp jobs.
It doesn't impress me, sorry. :-\
Just to keep this topic balanced, I've had two of Squeakies customers ask ME for quotes; one was a pub and the other was a house in Hardwick Avenue.
Both customers said they didn't like their current window cleaner.
I use a WFP.
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Then you've seen lots of bad jobs by a number of bad wfp'ers, why do you think so many on here have made the switch?
Sheep.
Have to have what their mates got. ::)
It's called keeping up with the Jones's.
Some of us don't fall for it.
If it's good for you, then that's fine.
I just don't like people plugging it all the time when it's often off-topic.
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Both customers said they didn't like their current window cleaner.
rubbish Tosh. >:(
The pub didn't say that at all.
You would have told me at the time.
Not only that, but I did an A1 job, and he was so pleased he called his missus out to have a look.
So no, that's just a dig.
As for some miserable old bag, you're welcome to do it and get dropped too when you can't reach half the windows and she realises she was better off before.
I don't need customers like that anyway. ;)
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Both customers said they didn't like their current window cleaner.
I don't need customers like that anyway. ;)
Arrrhhhh... It's not fair!
But I speak the truth.
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I should have known this would head in the Wfp vs Trad direction... :(
All I was saying is that leaded needn't be any slower than normal panes, and in my case often quicker.
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How do you do leaded quicker than a normal window.
I find they take me twice as long using 1 damp and 1 dry cloth.
I must be doing something wrong.
Paul
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Sam here paul!
Squeaky, get your video camera out and put your money where your mouth Is!!
Proof Is In the pudding!
I started off trad and still do a lot the trad way but no way on earth Is trad faster than wfp. Just no way. Sorry.
Oh, The only time trad might be quicker than wfp is on a wfp first clean.
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Calm down Chaps.
Lets not forget each to is own. I was having dinner today with two other wc. We were commenting on how glad we all are that were wfp. We earn top money for little risk to ourselves.
If squeaks enjoys trad, keep climbing those ladders my boy a dont let anyone tell you diffrent. Their is an easier and safer way to clean an upstairs window, but if your not intrested I will not try to persuade you.
We sat and watched another couple of w/c clean a house the trad way. We were laughing our socks off. I tell you wfp looks so much more proffesional.
Nel.
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I never said it was quicker than wfp!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Why can't people listen?
This is exactly what annoys me about this forum.
Nobody can talk about anything without someone waffling on about poxy water fad poles.
I said (again) that I could do a lot of leaded stuff quicker than squeegee panes.
Quick spray, quick microfibre buff.
Instead of wash, squeegee, detail, wipe sill.
Oh yeah, and wfp doesn't look more professional at all.
It just looks like your lazily brushing it and not even drying it.
Any fool can do it, and it doesn't look skillful to the public.
People stop to watch me, and they're impressed by the art of squeegeeing.
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well if its quicker to spray and buff , why don'tyou do that on all the windows?
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I have just read the start of this thread, I dont want it to turn into a wfp v trad debate or a squeaks bashing session, We know were you stand on the subject.
But just a point on leaded windows, I do two houses next to each other that have old Trad leaded windows. To clean both houses trad last year it took me 2hrs 40 min. They are £30 each, so not a bad earner trad then.
They now take me 55mins to do both, A good earner for me, a darn site quicker then trad, but to be honest I could clean them an hell of a lot quicker then 55mins. I am in slow motion but I dont want to be to quick.
What do the customers think of the job done. They tell me the finnish from wfp is far superior then cleaning it the old way. Are you sure you dont want us to pay more.
The customer is always right. (MOSTLY).
Nel.
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well if its quicker to spray and buff , why don'tyou do that on all the windows?
It's harder work obviously.
But you don't want to be squeegeeing lead.
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well if its quicker to spray and buff , why don'tyou do that on all the windows?
Umm might try that tomorrow, if it works for one why not for the other.
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Oh yeah, and wfp doesn't look more professional at all.
It just looks like your lazily brushing it and not even drying it.
Any fool can do it, and it doesn't look skillful to the public.
People stop to watch me, and they're impressed by the art of squeegeeing. Quote from Squeaks.
Any fool can be a w/c squeaks, Trad or wfp. The quality of finnish sorts the amatuer from the proffesional.
Any true master of his job will allways make it look easier then it is. It may look like I am Lazily brushing a window. But if you were to watch me long enough you would think I was an artist with the deft and accurate handling of my pole.
Squeegeeing does look good, I will agree on that point, thats why I still do it with my 18" blade. Not all w/c are adapt with a squeege of that length, But it does feel good doing a big window, no wonder they are useing Squeegeeing in the latest Ford Transit advert.
Nel.
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I never said it was quicker than wfp!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Why can't people listen?
This is exactly what annoys me about this forum.
Nobody can talk about anything without someone waffling on about poxy water fad poles.
I said (again) that I could do a lot of leaded stuff quicker than squeegee panes.
Quick spray, quick microfibre buff.
Instead of wash, squeegee, detail, wipe sill.
Oh yeah, and wfp doesn't look more professional at all.
It just looks like your lazily brushing it and not even drying it.
Any fool can do it, and it doesn't look skillful to the public.
People stop to watch me, and they're impressed by the art of squeegeeing.
Looks like some one is throwing their toys ouy the pram again. ;D
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I only wanted Gilesy to read it, but now he's going to think I started trouble. :(
3 pages of replies in one day, and about half a dozen posts on-topic....
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If microfibre is so fast are you going to throw away your squeegee?
No, of course you are not!
And I will lay a pound to a penny that if looked at properly the squeegee work you did will have had not smears at all, but in direct sunlight, even allowing for the lead missdirecting your eyes, there will be smears.
Atthis point I'm going to tar just about every window cleaner with the same brush and have everyone spluttering indignantly, so apologies for being contentious!!
All work done with a cloth will leave smears.
It may look spotless, and you may well have done a top job, but if the sun is at the right angle those smears will show (if you know how to look for them)
Don't forget, I use this method of cleaning on a lot of work, and anyone who has seen my work (squeaky included) will tell you I am a good window cleaner, and I'm fussy too.
But if you are rubbing the glass with a cloth (of any description) Get the light right and you will see.
The point I am trying to highlight is that if you are racing against yourself, with spray and microfibre you can go like the clappers but it won't mean your job is inch perfect.
You will of course deny this, 'My job was perfect when I finished it' you may say, but it won't be.
With the squeegee you follow a technique, the whole of the pane is cleaned, and detailed as required, you have to blade all of the water off the glass.
I'm not going to dispute Roger's timing, I believe him, and I'm quite sure he would happily duplicate his results if challenged, and I'm equally sure he did a good job too.
That isn't to say I couldn't find errors mind :P
A standard casement window is one small opening light, one tall opening pane to the one side and one fixed pane below the opening light.
This is the standard window, and it will take the average window cleaner 90 seconds to clean it,always has and always will.
You want to treat the window as a challenge, treat it as a race and you will of course do it far faster.
As we all know, Turbo Terry Burrows can do 3 single pane windows including the sills in under 10 seconds, thats what racing is all about.
The windows that Rog is talking about are easier to do than the tradition standard casement window, whether with a squeegee or microfibre.
But all I have said holds good, 90 seconds per standard casement window for the average window cleaner.
30 seconds for WFP
Providing you have done the job correctly the one thing you will not get with WFP is smears, and you WILL be quicker, and in that I am still talking about what Mr Average can achieve.
You cannot go at race speed all day long and do a top quality job, quite apart from which you will be shattered at the end of the day.
Roger bleats on time and time again about how crap WFP is, he is very, very wrong, done properly it does every bit as good a job as trad and it is quicker, on some work the difference is staggeringly large.
And the bigger the job the bigger the difference in time taken.
An average window cleaner will be quicker on most jobs than a fast window cleaner if he is using WFP.
But you must also remember that it still takes a few months to hone and develop your skill with WFP, in that respect it is no different to Trad window cleaning.
A newbie at WFP will be slow and clumsy, just to become 'average' takes time and effort regardless of which method you use.
And being an average window cleaner does not mean you are a 'WORSE' window cleaner than an above average one.
Merely that in time taken to do a job to a high standard you manage to do this in what is considered the average time it should take you once you have achieved a high level of competency.
My missus is shouting at me..gotta go :-\
Sigh, oh dear, I seethat while I have been typing this, 11 other replies have been made!
and most of them I'm going to have to delete guys.
Nothing wrong with Roger's post if it causes debate, but keep to a debate and not simply smart comments to snicker at :-X
Ian
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Cheers Ian, a good reply. (until the wfp bit ;))
Still not 90 seconds for me though.
Around the 45-50 mark, and I wasn't racing, I was at my standard work-all-day pace.
It wasn't to see how quick I could do it, more to see how leaded compared to squeegee work.
I'm sure in certain light it wasn't perfect, but I've never had a complaint so it must be of a satisfactory standard. :)
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Why should wfp be mentioned in this topic at all?
Exactly.
And it was actually before Ian arrived too...... ;D
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Ok - back to time. Today at 4.20 I rolled up on an ex-council estate with four "red-brick" semi's to do (like wot you have in your large towns and cities.)
These were the last of my round that I changed to wfp (back in May)
At the end of a long day it would have taken me a total of 1 hr and 15/20 mins to do these four semi's trad. and I would have earned £30.00 exactly.
I flicked the power on, plonked the 100m of microbore out the back of the estate car, picked up the pole in one hand, hose in the other - went round the back of house one. Tapped the autobrush and did house one.
Walked the hose across the road and pulled out another 20metres of microbore and did houses 2 and 3. Rolled it all back up and drove 20 metres to house no. 4. Out with the hose, round the back, rolled it up and finished at 5.15.
That's £30 in 55 minutes at the end of a long day on a council estate in Bristol.
Saving 20/25 minutes - and remember these were the last houses I changed over to wfp because pre-microbore they would have taken as long to do wfp as trad.
So, now I would say I've moved into second gear on wfp - improving my original set up - tank instead of barrels, microbore instead of standard, auto brush with fan-jets instead of normal.
When I was in first gear on wfp there were some houses that were quicker to do trad. Now, even on standalone properties it's quicker to wfp.
I'm looking forward to third, fourth and fifth gear - move forward or drift backwards.
Modified to add:-
(And why mention wfp? - because the heading was about a time experiment - which is what I have indubitably posted about!)
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WHEN WELL HOPFULLY NOT you get lead poisoning like i did you will never never ever!!!! clean a lead window with anything but wfp??? well its quicker 4 us lost 2 customers in 2 years but gained approx 300 new ones and the book was full before new work like con roof cleaning gutters etc we are not tired from the pole like the ladders but its just another tool
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There is no way that customers think that wfp looks more proffessional than trad, hoses trailing everwhere, water running down the walls, and wet windows that may or may not dry clean.
I use wfp, but have moved back to use mainly trad as I find it faster on most jobs, and a lot less hassle, and best of all my customers prefer it!! ;D
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I can trad as quickly as wfp on 90% of my houses, I am talking about from turning up at a property to leaving.
I am no slouch with both methods, the advantage with trad is you can see any mistakes immediately, not that i usually make mistakes with trad.
The big plus for wfp is safety
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The only accidents I have ever had when window cleaning have been using wfp! The worst one was when I walked into a concrete bird bath as I was looking up at my pole and not where I was going, I went flying and nearly hit my head on some stone steps, I also nearly dropped the pole on my customers expensive car!
People can trip on trailing hoses, slip on the water that is all over the ground, if someone dropped a power pole on someones head it could kill them, it is also difficult to concentrate on where you are going when you are looking upwards all the time, not to mention the damage wfp does to your neck and back over time!!
I come home with aches and pains all over my body after a day with wfp, but not at all after a day on the ladders. Manafactuers are brain washing so many window cleaners about how superior wfp is supposed to be, when I bought mine the manafaturer told me that I would be 400% quicker!! what a load of b******s, I would challenge any wfper to a race on a standard house with me using trad, I would win easily and the results are guaranteed to be a superior finish with trad!! :P
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;)
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Groundhog
Do you not use WFP any longer.?
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I use wfp and trad. Prob 50/50 %
I really couldn't care less which one is faster or cleaner. I've cleaned windows for 20 years and I know which is safer for me. But who cares?
If I was to be as argumentative in my posts or as controversial as Squeaky, in any other context, I would be in "the dark corner" by now. But you, Squeaky, are far more challenging, for far longer than I have been, yet it carries on!
Ian Giles' posts carry on too! The other side of the coin argumentatively.
Anyone else would be told that their posts had been modified or deleted! Because they go on and on far more than any other issue is allowed to. Because it's all about where it started locally.
Lets be honest. You two have worked with each other, now you argue online with each other, yet you live in close proximity to each other! Why don't you sort this out, locally over a nice takeaway?
I'll tell you why.. Because it gets responses.
But If it was any other matter regarding w/c, equally challenging, like my post for instance....there would be complaints. But you know I'm right. Yes I am outspoken! I am known for that.
Give up on your silly arguments about time trials. Who cares?
Ian..You seem like a hard working chap. Well done! I respect your self discipline. Remember it is not the entire measure of a man.
Roger..Be glad you have youth on your side to still be able to run up a ladder, and down again, and clean so fast..realise that others could also do that at your age.
Show some respect, remember, "Youth is wasted on the young". Make the most of it.. It is gone before you realise.
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Yes Jeff I still use wfp on commercial jobs, but on my domestic round I am nearly all trad as I find it faster and get a better finish without all the hassle of hoses and poles ect. The only domestics I use it on are for windows above 1st floor height and on a large property that I clean with large painted metal framed georgian style windows, that is the only job where I find wfp to be quicker.
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To the guys who favour wfp over traditional, when doing bungalows (without dormers) do you still use wfp or do you trad? I.E is wfp quicker on bungs as well?
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I use wfp and trad. Prob 50/50 %
I really couldn't care less which one is faster or cleaner. I've cleaned windows for 20 years and I know which is safer for me. But who cares?
If I was to be as argumentative in my posts or as controversial as Squeaky, in any other context, I would be in "the dark corner" by now. But you, Squeaky, are far more challenging, for far longer than I have been, yet it carries on!
Ian Giles' posts carry on too! The other side of the coin argumentatively.
Anyone else would be told that their posts had been modified or deleted! Because they go on and on far more than any other issue is allowed to. Because it's all about where it started locally.
Lets be honest. You two have worked with each other, now you argue online with each other, yet you live in close proximity to each other! Why don't you sort this out, locally over a nice takeaway?
I'll tell you why.. Because it gets responses.
But If it was any other matter regarding w/c, equally challenging, like my post for instance....there would be complaints. But you know I'm right. Yes I am outspoken! I am known for that.
Give up on your silly arguments about time trials. Who cares?
Ian..You seem like a hard working chap. Well done! I respect your self discipline. Remember it is not the entire measure of a man.
Roger..Be glad you have youth on your side to still be able to run up a ladder, and down again, and clean so fast..realise that others could also do that at your age.
Show some respect, remember, "Youth is wasted on the young". Make the most of it.. It is gone before you realise.
To cut a long story short PJ, would you say that there's one rule for some and a different rule for the rest of us??
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No wfp is not quicker on bungalows or most other houses, it is just that so many window cleaners have been brainwashed into thinking that wfp is best. And then they refuse to admit that it is not all it is cracked up to after they have invested thousands of pounds on a system, they are in denial, I should know I was when I first purchased my system.
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It's Squeaky Mk2!
You speak a lot of sense Groundhog.
You keep telling them!
I know what side my bread's buttered.
Don't need no expensive machine to my job. :)
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Groundhog how long did you use wfp before you arrived at the conclusion that you are no faster then Trad?
I take it then you did not earn more money useing wfp rather then Trad.
Nel.
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But I thought everyone did? ::)
;D
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To cut a long story short PJ, would you say that there's one rule for some and a different rule for the rest of us??
Yes definitely, but you know they won't agree!
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Groundhog,
Find a newbie that has just come into trad window cleaning from a sedentary office job, he will be in a world of aches and pains from using a ladder and all of the tools.
Even when I was using ladders all the time, if I had a few 3 storey offices to do, my glutes would be twanging like crazy the following day, and up until 2 and a half years ago I had spent my entire working like up a ladder (I'm 50)
I rarely have any aches as a result of WFP, and I'm also doing lots more high work that before.
The higher you go, the harder it gets, regardless of WFP or trad..
The likes of Squeaky will be faster than me now were I to go back to a ladder, in fact, he was almost certainly quicker than me 2 years ago on normal houses.
But that has a lot to do with ladder speed, not window cleaning technique.
I don't think I have ever carped on about how quickly I can work with trad tools, but I am fast, even on large plate glass where I have to use an extension pole, in fact I'll warrant I'm quicker than most with that method.
But I still use WFP on the majority of my shop fronts, overall it works out quicker, and the 'overall' finish is better.
I wash all of the surrounding frames down, and that is a big plus with WFP.
I have one or two places where the finish would certainly be better if done trad, and a couple more where I squeegee off the glass to ensure I have a job done to the right standard.
To be fast with either method you have to work at at, and that applies equally to the quality of the finish too.
A trad cleaner can fly around a house in no time at all, but the finish will be dire, and the same applies to the WFP user.
It takes time and effort with both methods to be both quick and do a good job.
But once you have that sorted with WFP then you will be quicker than trad and it will take less physical efort to do so, there will be less wear and tear on your body.
Garden gnomes and plant pots getting in the way?
Well assess the job in hand properly and plan your way around it, you can just as easily trip over carrying around your 3 tier ladder fully extended, and your ladder will weigh far, far more than your poles will, and will cause way more damage if you let them go.
below is a shop I did on friday morning, total time taken for the job was 30 minutes, if you think you can get close to this trad then you're having a laugh!
They were having an inspection that day and everything (not just the window cleaning ) had to be perfect, so my work was also checked closely (by them and myself)
Not a spot or a blemish in sight ;)
(http://img174.i.us/img174/6807/dsc00126gi8.jpg) (http://i.us)
(http://img98.i.us/img98/9153/dsc00127jw8.jpg) (http://i.us)
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big pics, so here are the final two in a sepetate reply.
I started this job a 6:10 in the morning, the date and time of photo's are shown, job was completed, work checked over, tools packed away and then the photo's taken.
(http://img168.i.us/img168/4263/dsc00128ng4.jpg) (http://i.us)
(http://img86.i.us/img86/3456/dsc00129ui4.jpg) (http://i.us)
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Don't reckon I'd be that far off. :-\
A few minutes behind maybe, but then no time putting everything away.
Not that I'd bother with stuff that high anyway.(probably)
Who's parked a girly coloured van in front of it? ;D
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LOL ;D ;D ;D, Squeaky you aint got a clue mate, come down to London for a day out with me, I will show you how to clean windows and you will see what the fuss is all about.
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LOL ;D ;D ;D, Squeaky you aint got a clue mate, come down to London for a day out with me, I will show you how to clean windows and you will see what the fuss is all about.
Lol ;D ;D Lol ;D ;D Lol ;D ;D
Show me how to clean windows.....? ;D
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:-X :-X :-X ;D ;D ;D
You aint got a clue mate your ignorance wont get you no were in life and in business.
Take a look at this pic, put it this way by the time I've un-tied this pole 30-secs, I've earnt what you have in an hour+ trad, let alone raise and use it.
Also I would like to add that im in my PRIME and i doubt you are a faster trad shiner than me.
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guys I can't believe how long this has gone on for.
Squeeky, I timed myself yesterday - 24secs to get out of car, get pole out of car, connect pole/hose reel and start on the first window (2nd floor), it took me a further 8 mins to do 23 4x3ft panes, wind up, put pole back in car and start car engine - so it took nearly 9 mins, I was going at my all day pace, if you think you can keep up then either you're superman or delusional.
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pro pole,
A few questions for you!
Thats a good pole in the pic!
1. What length Is It and how much does It cost?
2. How can you clean that window In the pic as there are railings around the glass?
No T-shirt on :o Not very profesional. But each to there own!
Cheers
Matthew
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:-X :-X :-X ;D ;D ;D
You aint got a clue mate your ignorance wont get you no were in life and in business.
Take a look at this pic, put it this way by the time I've un-tied this pole 30-secs, I've earnt what you have in an hour+ trad, let alone raise and use it.
Also I would like to add that im in my PRIME and i doubt you are a faster trad shiner than me.
Another rip-off wfp'er...... ::)
I ain't got a clue....I like that one. ;D
Speak to a few shop owners around here.....or domestic customers. ;)
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Hi Matthew,
The pole is a 60ft carbon ionics (its not extendedfully) just under a grand.
I clean the windows above the railings only and theres three other standard windows per flat, in the pic im not acually cleaning im starting to move the pole to the next window.
This day was very very hot and this estate is full of young professinals that are never in I also couldnt really care i decide how i work, on commercial I allways wear Hi-vi's and in the city hi-vi's all day commercial and domestic.
Regards
ProPole
Squeaky you took your time to reply, as for a ripp off please refrain from comments like that in future I dont appreciate it. My time experiment shut you up for a couple of hours you didnt no what to say and you come back with that perfetic remark.
You ask my domestic, Retail and Commercial blue chip clients what they think of me, they will tell you were to go, you wouldnt even get past the gates of some of my customers and clients, I regulary brush shoulders with the super rich and famous.
I've seen you price estimate on this forum before and i tell you now round here you wouldnt stand a chance in business with that attituide.
Good Luck to you Roger
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Thanks pro pole for your answer!
Just under a grand :o Think I will need to up my prices and take on some new customers before I can afford that :'(
Is it heavy when up at that hieght In the pic?
Cheers
Matthew
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yea it is quite heavy but I dont mind getting the big boy out, I know its gonna be a good earner.
This pic was taken in the days before I had my 45ft which makes life alot easier I have seven poles and each has its own personality, when I get a new pole it takes a while to get used to, only the operator knows how to use the pole to its best ability.
I quite fancy a modula pole, has anyone come back with reviews from the gardiners super-lite yet?
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Wonder if squeeky would climb 60ft on his/or anyones ladders??
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Squeaky you took your time to reply, as for a ripp off please refrain from comments like that in future I dont appreciate it. My time experiment shut you up for a couple of hours you didnt no what to say and you come back with that perfetic remark.
Shut me up for a couple of hours?
I didn't check back for a while that's why.
I haven't got to spend my life on here sorting out wfp problems. Lol ;D
As for not appreciating it.....
Well I don't appreciate starting a thread about traditional leaded window cleaning and having certain wfp users who are up their own arses bring their brand of "cleaning" into it.
Just boasting to hide an inferiority complex? ;)
You moan enough if I post on a wfp thread.
Double standards. ::)
I'll leave this for a bit to give you chance to write more crap on my trad thread, then I'll be locking it later.
Thanks (not), Rog.
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squeeks I've stood up for you a few times in the past but sometimes you are just too set in your ways - remembre mate, nearly all of us wfpers cut our teeth with trad, many of us still use it now, its a matter of whats best for the job, hence why we still use trad for some ground floor jobs, but saying that wfp is better for 95% of our work. So CHILL OUT for a while - ps locking your own thread is admission of defeat.
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To cut a long story short PJ, would you say that there's one rule for some and a different rule for the rest of us??
Yes definitely, but you know they won't agree!
If this was started as a "Trad" topic, maybe Squeaky should re-read the first sentence of his first post! It is nothing more than another pointless squabble.
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Don't reckon I'd be that far off. :-\
A few minutes behind maybe, but then no time putting everything away.
Not that I'd bother with stuff that high anyway.(probably)
Who's parked a girly coloured van in front of it? ;D
you'd be breaking the law anyway squeeks if you done that work :) with your ladders - saying that I've gone higher with ladders before going wfp
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Not that I'd bother with stuff that high anyway.(probably)
OK Roger you have admitted here that third floor is an unlikely candidate for you so all window cleaners on here now realise that ladder work has its limitations (ie anything above second floor- as well as above steep tiled porches, conservatories etc).
I clean the windows above the railings only and theres three other standard windows per flat, in the pic im not acually cleaning im starting to move the pole to the next window.
I have a block like this (three floors tho', not four) and with a small brush head I get between the railings to scrub and then above to rinse.
Squeaky - I really think that your strident objections to wfp after other window cleaners have started to use it, overcome its start-up difficulties and work more safely and profitably with it sounds like you're beginning to "whistle through the graveyard".
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Roger, you are wrong, you would not even be close, you know the place and you can check out my work, its out there for all to check.
For one thing your ladder isn't big enough, but you want to have a go at matching the time I have taken I'll lend you my big three tier ladder to do the high ones with.
Trad wioll not get close, you are welcome to try and do it at race speed if you like, and I will openly admit that in that respect, WFP will always come second, but yo can race all you like and I don't care who you are, you won't beat WFP on this job.
I can do this job probably 5 minutes quicker, but I chose to do it with 2 moves of the van, it's a big building and it is just easier for me to do it in the two moves, but any trad guy wants to race me, feel free ;)
And Roger....it was you that brought WFP into this thread, check out your first couple of sentences!!
I will wholeheartedly agree that there is very little time difference between trad and WFP on a standard estate house, but on any large job, and the larger the job, the bigger the time differential between the two methods.
The job I have highlighted is perhaps a tad unfair, it looks simple I know, but it is a fairly high 3 storey building and there are 30 units to clean (one isn't shown)
This is not a job where trad cannot compete time wise, lets face it, I would not have put it up there if it was...would I.
But this job was done comfortably within 30 minutes with WFP, have a walk around it Squeaks, try and find fault with the work I've done, you'll be hard pressed to do so.
As I have said, I'm prepared to stand up and be counted. (and by a WFP hater at that!)
Roger has also aluded to shops that are not done to an acceptable standard, now I don't know whether he is meaning myself or someone else, but if it is me, then I would certainly like to know which shops he is possibly alluding to.
I can think of only one commercial account that I do WFP where I would get a better finish doing it trad.
I will also be more than happy to contact the manager of the shop or premises in question and ask them if they too can find fault with the work that I do.
Ian
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Hi ian,
I know this Is a bit off the subject but could you send me some pics (If you have any) of your van setup?
I am thinking of going for a van simillar to your one.
Cheers
Matthew
Clear Vision
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Hi
and my dads bigger than your dad !
brag brag brag read pjs contribution it makes sense
some people from both sides of this "debate" just look without reading what is the point if you are not willing to even consider others view
So sqeaky is as fast as wfp system great but since he doesnt work for me and since Im old enough to be his father its all abit irellivant for me what s quickest whats best for each person each job taking into account all our indivual circomstances thats whats important so often these threds desend into slanging matches
So sqeakys pleased with his time
ian giles is pleased with his
polemans working so fast his shirts fallen off and if I am still wondering what the point of this thread is and can anything be gained from it ?
confused grant
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If wfp is so superior why do wfp window cleaners get so many more cancellations, I will tell you why - spots, runs, water coming through to the inside, water running down walls, water all over the patio and garden, customers worried about the affect on the enviroment of wasting so much water, windows left wet!
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High prices.... ::)
;D
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Thanks Squeaky I forgot that one! ;D Also as one of my customers said to me when I tried wfp, "thats a lot af hassle just to clean windows when you used to do the same job just as well,and with a lot less mess with a bucket and squeegee!" 8)
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Why is it that some people think that the only way you can clean windows is to use a dirty bucket of water, a dirty rag and a squeegee.
Why can't you clean these windows differently, what makes the old methods so infallible?
Both roger and groundhog are so anti wfp that they slag it off at a moments notice, this is their prerogative, but surly they should be proficient in the use of wfp first, if they have not used it, then they cannot pass judgement so severely.
They might say that their customers have had bad experience's so this proves that wfp cleaning is crap.
Well I am 100% sure that all trad cleaners have had their own complaints, from their own customers at some time in their lives.
Yes you are going to have some people who will not change over from trad to wfp cleaning for whatever reasons they care to give.
Yes you are going to leave their windows wet and water will go down the wall and some will fall onto their patio, this will only happen once a month when they have their windows cleaned but it will also happen every time it rains, which is more often.
Some customers might be worried about the amount of water that is used, when we seem to be running out of the stuff, they are so worried that they stop watering their gardens and washing their cars on Sundays afternoons. I don't think so.
I personally coundn't care less whether you clean windows by trad methods of wfp or any other method that might be invented in the future.
All I care about is that a true and balanced view is taken by people who have the experience to give it. Not by bigots who are putting new cleaners in the trade off using other cleaning methods, which might give them a better income or even save their life.
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you know this whole debate has really got boring, I couldnay care less, I KNOW I make more money using wfp, I KNOW it does a better job - Squeeky KNOWS I am wrong etc etc.
Any chance of someone starting a new thread - one where the trad's don't hijack it into becoming a trad v wfp dispute.
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This was always going to be trad V WFP as squeaks mentioned WFP in his initial post.
Whether it benefits anyone I don't know, but you can at least read both viewpoints.
Squeaks is from observation only, he doesn't really know the first thing about WFP and until he actually uses it he never will either.
Groundhog says about leaving windows wet, hoses trailing all over the shop, spots over all the windows, cancellations left right and centre.
Were you considering changing from trad to WFP, if you listened to these two you woldn't touch it with a barge pole!!
You CAN do every bit as good a job with WFP as you can with trad, it's safer, takes less physical effort and is almost certainly quicker in just about every situation. a standard window will take you about 30 seconds with WFP as against 90 seconds trad.
It's slower to drag out hoses and pack them away again that throwing your ladder on the roof rack, but even on a small, stand alone house, with practice and planning you will be at least as quick as trad.
There will always be a handful who are lightning fast with trad (though most aren't as fast as they think they are) but most of us fall into roughly the same bandwidth, and by and large you will be quicker with WFP.
The quality of the finished job is down to the individual, and that holds true with trad every bit as much with WFP.
More expensive than trad?
Well not in my case, but my prices are competetive with trad window cleaners, you don't need to charge more to make more.
In all my replies I try to say what the average person can do, not what a budding Turbo Terry Burrows can do.
The photos I've posted on this thread of the job I did?
Well I would expect most people using WFP to do it in a similar time, however it will have to be a very special person indeed who could match that time doing it trad.
Ian
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Actually it was only mentioned because it's all you bang on about Ian.
It wasn't a comparison of that if you actually read it.
It was leaded vs normal panes.
As usual wfp users had to pipe up. ::)
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Squeaky,
Just wondered how fast you will be when you have the inevitable fall. If you are as fast as you say you are & have been cleaning for some time that serious fall could be just around the corner mate, then lets see you bombing up that ladder with your arm in plaster.
Also the reason most of us WFPers think are sytems are great is that we have done both, trad & WFP.
AND YOU HAVEN'T.
So until you try it, (which I know you won't, cos you are stuck in your ways) don't knock it.
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Thanks Squeaky I forgot that one! ;D Also as one of my customers said to me when I tried wfp, "thats a lot af hassle just to clean windows when you used to do the same job just as well,and with a lot less mess with a bucket and squeegee!" 8)
I wonder what he would say about the "mess" if you shed your blood on his/her patio. They would get another window cleaner like a shot and complain about the red stains you left. Not being nasty but it can happen to anyone. I had a couple of near misses some years ago and a relatively recent one just before I started with WFP. I spoke to the hairdresser recently who called the ambulance for thewindow cleaner who was working on the Thai restaurant next door. He told me that blood was coming out of his head and that he thought he wouldn't survive. Fortunately, the early fears for that window cleaner were unfounded and he re-started work again recently - in spite of weeks of hospitalisation with a brain hemmorage.. To this day, he remembers nothing about his fall or the few days afterwards. I'm not making this up. It all happened barely half a mile from my home.
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If wfp is so superior why do wfp window cleaners get so many more cancellations, I will tell you why - spots, runs, water coming through to the inside, water running down walls, water all over the patio and garden, customers worried about the affect on the enviroment of wasting so much water, windows left wet!
Admittedly there are a some jobs that are of lower quality than WFP. However, the world is moving on and the rewgulatory bodies are becoming more health and safety concious. Some customers with a certain type of window will just have to accept a lower standard of work in exchange for worker safety. I agree that it's not a nice choice but that's how the world is going. I must say though that I'm not anti trad. I use a ladder sometimes when it's impractical not to.
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Yawn, same old safety crap.
Never ever even been close to falling off.
I've got a little bit more balance than that.... ::)
What about the blood of the pedestians or the customer when they trip over your dangerous hose?
What about the smashed in face of a small child who slips on an unexpectedly slippery doorway?
The mother's face when she sees her little darling carted away? :'(
Wfp users in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... ;)
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Yawn, same old safety crap.
Never ever even been close to falling off.
I've got a little bit more balance than that.... ::)
What about the blood of the pedestians or the customer when they trip over your dangerous hose?
What about the smashed in face of a small child who slips on an unexpectedly slippery doorway?
The mother's face when she sees her little darling carted away? :'(
Wfp users in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... ;)
Well Rog it is more at the forefront of my mind since that guy nearly died down the road from me. I don't know him well but I often stopped for a quick chat with him. I know you've used smileys but as for the hose, if the hose crosses the public right of way, I do have some rubber safety matting to cover it. It's black matting with yellow edging too so it stands out a bit. Admittedly, the hose isn't covered on all the property but at least the customer won't be tripping over any buckets of water ;D
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Yawn, same old safety crap.
Never ever even been close to falling off.
I've got a little bit more balance than that.... ::)
What about the blood of the pedestians or the customer when they trip over your dangerous hose?
What about the smashed in face of a small child who slips on an unexpectedly slippery doorway?
The mother's face when she sees her little darling carted away? :'(
Wfp users in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... ;)
If this happens as often as you are saying then why don't you show us the proof.
Where are the newspaper headlines?
Where are the accidents reports from the hospitals?
Where are the outraged customers who have slipped outside their home?
Where is the data that the Heath and Safety office would compile if these accidents happened?
Do the Royal Society for the prevention of accidents know about this great danger to public safety?
Do they send out guidelines to the general public about the perils of wfp cleaning?
There are plenty are the above that ladder use have had reported, but I have never heard anything about wfp cleaning.
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Yawn, same old safety crap.
Never ever even been close to falling off.
I've got a little bit more balance than that.... ::)
Squeaky (Roger),
I don't believe you haven't been close to a fall or had one of those 'dodgy' moments.
No way. Another lie. There's no way you can climb a ladder around 100 times per day, say you work fast, and not have any close 'calls'; at all. I can't believe that.
Especially on those dodgy looking ladders you use with no rubber feet on them; worn down to the bare alluminium; which is all bent and splayed.
If you're so fast, you should be coining it in; therefore should be able to afford a decent set of ladders at least!
If you can't afford a set of new ladders, hacksaw the bent couple of inches from the bottom of each ladder and insert some rubber feet; they're not expensive; I'll even give you a set if you call round my house for free.
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Yawn, same old safety crap.
Never ever even been close to falling off.
I've got a little bit more balance than that.... ::)
What about the blood of the pedestians or the customer when they trip over your dangerous hose?
What about the smashed in face of a small child who slips on an unexpectedly slippery doorway?
The mother's face when she sees her little darling carted away? :'(
Wfp users in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... ;)
Squeaky,
Falling from a ladder can be deadly, maiming - leave you in a wheelchair, on crutches, poohing in a bag or being fed like a baby.
To declare to all that it won't/cannot happen to you shows breathtaking stupidity and I just hope no newbie to this forum is influenced by it.
Yes we and others can trip over a hose or a bucket but unless the accident is freakishly unusual it won't be life threatening or brain damaging.
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guys I think trad and wfp in the future on domestic will go hand in hand
most houses have windows with at least 80 per cent of the house can be done safely from a ladder, it is the windows on roof slippy decks or unjet surfaces that makes the job dangerous, for this i clean the 80 per cent of the house
then stop about 3pm and go back and catch the odd window that was unsafe with ladders, with a backpack this way the customer gets good results as i can see what I am leaving, the job is safe because i have liminated the danger areas and covered this with wfp and the customer is satisfied that I have operated in a safe maner and accepts the odd run from wfp if it sdoes occur.
I dont think you need to go all out wfp but operate in a safe manner - if it be ladders or wfp
jinky
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If this happens as often as you are saying then why don't you show us the proof.
Where are the newspaper headlines?
Where are the accidents reports from the hospitals?
Where are the outraged customers who have slipped outside their home?
Where is the data that the Heath and Safety office would compile if these accidents happened?
Do the Royal Society for the prevention of accidents know about this great danger to public safety?
Do they send out guidelines to the general public about the perils of wfp cleaning?
There are plenty are the above that ladder use have had reported, but I have never heard anything about wfp cleaning.
Give it time.
ALL those quotas above will be filled.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
Mark my words. ;)
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Wfp cleaning has been used for the last 30 to 40 years, so if it hasn't happen yet how long should we wait.
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One thing i do agree with is trailing hoses are a real hazard to the general public.
It is only a matter of time before we hear of a few accidents happening.
Dave
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Guys, if this is going to mutate into a safety issue then I'm going to lock it.
If you wish to debate safety then start a fresh thread.
Ian
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Go to the new safety thread - "Which is safer WFP or Ladders?"
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This has turned into another full blown trad against WFP argument. Roger your a trad window cleaner, and the majority still are. It's your choice mate.
I built my own system having been inspired by Matt, and it cost me about £600 in all. I spent a hell of a lot more on diving gear and don't dive any more.
I continue to use WFP from choice, If I wasn't happy with it I would dump it, but I am very happy with it. I never hear those dreaded words,"they were a bit streaky last time". I always try and do a perfect job, but like Ian says, it may look perfect when I leave it, but when the detailing dries it can leave a mark.
I, like a few others on here am 12 months or so into WFP. ok, There may be a few spots now and again on the odd pane, these are more noticable when I do inside and out jobs. when I did these jobs trad on sunny days I could see streaks too and they are a lot more noticeable.
In truth I get no complaints with WFP. I can't do a house in 10 mins with it either. I think I am taking too long making sure it's a good job, and as an old un my technique may not be as quick as the young ones. On some jobs I am a lot quicker with WFP. I can do tops a lot faster than I can do the bottoms for some reason, so I often do the bottoms trad.
Now to get back to your original thread. I once had a good guy working with me.
We had an estate of houses that had lead fronts and plain backs. I was doing the fronts and he did the backs. If the glass was reasonably clean I could do the fronts a hell of a lot quicker than he could squeegy the backs.
The secret? I was just using a clean damp scrim. I could do about 3 houses before changing scrims, but they have to be clean and damp. Dai
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Dai you're alright in my book.
An on-topic post! :o
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Do you fold your scrims Dai?
I have allways folded scrims, It gives you a total of 32 clean sides to one scrim.
When one side is dirty turn over. You should find that it will last a lot longer then three houses.
I hate to see w/c with their scrim all scrunched up.
Nel.
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You should ask Squeaks how much he spends on his photobraphic equipment!! ;)!!
With regards folding scrims, microfibre and so on: Mine often start out folded, but often on leaded work, the lead drags against the cloth...within a short time it's unravelled into an untidy mop :-\
But I've found little difference myself, so long as you keep rotating your cloth you'll be ok.
And squeaks, if you are daft enough to mention WFP in the same breath as trad, and are talking about speed, then of course people will mention WFP and compare times!!!
Perhaps it is actually getting to the point when there needs to be a separate section for Trad and a separate one for WFP, this way any thread started on one or the other topic can't get hijacked into trad V WFP (usually by Squeaky himself!)
Something I also meant to mention regards speed with leaded V squeegee:
Roger claims he is quicker doing a leaded with a Microfibre cloth than he is doing a similar window that is not leaded with a squeegee.
If this was so then surely you would use the same method on windows of a similar size that were not leaded. Patio doors and big plate windows you would of course do with a squeegee.
But were you to clean these others windows with a cloth, once the sun shines on them they would be as smeary as hell, and in truth, to get a job that would equal the finish given by squeegee-ing and detailing would take far longer than it would with the said squeegee were you to use just a spray and micro cloth (or damp micro/scrim)
I started window cleaning over 22 years ago, I was using chamois leather's to clean windows, including big panes and patio windows.
Damn hard work I can tell you, and a high level of skill is required to obtain a top finish.
But it would not equal the finish you could get with a squeegee, you could of course be quite quick too, but the squeegee was less effort, did a consistantly better job, was almost always faster and left you better off and less exhausted at the end of the day (Am I ringing any bells here ;))
So the actual job you are doing on leaded windows, if looked at properly is highly unlikely to be of an equal standard to those done with squeegee.
I don't use WFP on everything remember, I use all methods and am continually comparing results.
I know how to use all methods and can achieve top results with any of them (including Chamois leather, very few window cleaners, unless they have cut their teeth on Chamois can say that).
Anyway, my new computer has just arrived ;D ;D ;D
I'm off!!
Ian
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I disagree, i dont think there is a need to seperate into a trad and a wfp forum. If you dont agree or you dont like what some one has posted then dont reply, keep to the original thread if thats what you want to do, from what i can see there is already 'a them and us' situation happening between some wc.
I think to seperate the forum would only make this worse.
And also what some people write can come across wrong, when some one else reads it, so come on, lets live and let live. ;)