Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Neil Gornall on November 15, 2012, 12:20:06 pm
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I had an email today from a company I deal with. just wondered what your view on it is and whether you can see any impact on the industry.
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FEE FOR INTERVENTION
As you may be aware already the Government has reduced its funding towards the Health & Safety industry by £40,000,000 a year, so in response to this huge cut back the industry must now largely fund itself and the way they are doing this is by making unannounced visits to places of business and being extremely attentive to finding fault. It is understandable that to maintain a perfectly safe environment in some industries is near impossible to do 7 days a week all year round so a daily routine check by a responsible member of staff can assist in order to prevent any repercussions because they have begun to take action on what some may consider very minor offences. Here is some information you should find very useful in regards to this subject
What you need to know
1. What is FFI? When HSE Inspectors find a ‘material breach’ of health and safety law that they have to investigate and follow up in writing the business owner will have to pay a fee.
2. What is a material breach? A contravention of the law necessitating a written report by the inspector (includes improvement and prohibition notices).
e.g. missing guards on machinery.
Presence of asbestos in damaged condition
Hazardous substances
Leaking machinery.
Fire safety equipment (tampered with)
Clear signage to fire exits
Eating facilities and restroom cleanliness
3. Why is it being introduced? The Government believe that businesses breaking the law necessitating HSE involvement should pay for their time in either helping putting it right or taking enforcement action.
4. When is it being introduced? 1st October 2012 in England, Wales and Scotland (no date present for NI and not in EIRE)
5. What will it cost ? The whole of the inspectors time in dealing with the material breach is chargeable at £124 per hour
The HSE predicts that a standard inspection visit:
resulting in a letter will be charged at £750
resulting in a notice being issued will be charged at £1,500
We understand this is a major adjustment for a lot of businesses to take on board so we are happy to assist with any enquiries to clear up those grey areas if you would like to know more and how to ensure your business is as secure as possible don’t hesitate to call.
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He's working from home today, so I'll make sure he takes a look at this! :)
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I had an email today from a company I deal with. just wondered what your view on it is and whether you can see any impact on the industry.
>
>
>
FEE FOR INTERVENTION
As you may be aware already the Government has reduced its funding towards the Health & Safety industry by £40,000,000 a year, so in response to this huge cut back the industry must now largely fund itself and the way they are doing this is by making unannounced visits to places of business and being extremely attentive to finding fault. It is understandable that to maintain a perfectly safe environment in some industries is near impossible to do 7 days a week all year round so a daily routine check by a responsible member of staff can assist in order to prevent any repercussions because they have begun to take action on what some may consider very minor offences. Here is some information you should find very useful in regards to this subject
What you need to know
1. What is FFI? When HSE Inspectors find a ‘material breach’ of health and safety law that they have to investigate and follow up in writing the business owner will have to pay a fee.
2. What is a material breach? A contravention of the law necessitating a written report by the inspector (includes improvement and prohibition notices).
e.g. missing guards on machinery.
Presence of asbestos in damaged condition
Hazardous substances
Leaking machinery.
Fire safety equipment (tampered with)
Clear signage to fire exits
Eating facilities and restroom cleanliness
3. Why is it being introduced? The Government believe that businesses breaking the law necessitating HSE involvement should pay for their time in either helping putting it right or taking enforcement action.
4. When is it being introduced? 1st October 2012 in England, Wales and Scotland (no date present for NI and not in EIRE)
5. What will it cost ? The whole of the inspectors time in dealing with the material breach is chargeable at £124 per hour
The HSE predicts that a standard inspection visit:
resulting in a letter will be charged at £750
resulting in a notice being issued will be charged at £1,500
We understand this is a major adjustment for a lot of businesses to take on board so we are happy to assist with any enquiries to clear up those grey areas if you would like to know more and how to ensure your business is as secure as possible don’t hesitate to call.
Neil,
I have been watching the developments over the last two years towards this.
I feel this is a great step forward for the industry.
Most of the commercial companies I come into contact with on a regular basis will not be affected as they are already working within compliance of the law.
I am also pleased that a lot of sole traders that have been on the course in the last couple of years, and in particular the last year within the changes we have made to the courses will not have much to worry about.
The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs
Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole
What’s going to effect a lot of the Clean It Up sole traders is not having clear understanding of what’s right and wrong.
You only have to look at some of the posts we get about the course and Impact to see a lot of these traders are going to have problems.
You can’t make sound decisions if you don’t have the correct information.
What is for sure, the policing of compliance will get stricter.
The HSE and the EHO in particular will have a revenue stream, this will create a proactive drive in enforcement.
If you get caught working unsafely it’s going to cost you as cleaner.
I am sure already your reading between the lines, they are going to be a lot more vigilant.
-
I had an email today from a company I deal with. just wondered what your view on it is and whether you can see any impact on the industry.
>
>
>
FEE FOR INTERVENTION
As you may be aware already the Government has reduced its funding towards the Health & Safety industry by £40,000,000 a year, so in response to this huge cut back the industry must now largely fund itself and the way they are doing this is by making unannounced visits to places of business and being extremely attentive to finding fault. It is understandable that to maintain a perfectly safe environment in some industries is near impossible to do 7 days a week all year round so a daily routine check by a responsible member of staff can assist in order to prevent any repercussions because they have begun to take action on what some may consider very minor offences. Here is some information you should find very useful in regards to this subject
What you need to know
1. What is FFI? When HSE Inspectors find a ‘material breach’ of health and safety law that they have to investigate and follow up in writing the business owner will have to pay a fee.
2. What is a material breach? A contravention of the law necessitating a written report by the inspector (includes improvement and prohibition notices).
e.g. missing guards on machinery.
Presence of asbestos in damaged condition
Hazardous substances
Leaking machinery.
Fire safety equipment (tampered with)
Clear signage to fire exits
Eating facilities and restroom cleanliness
3. Why is it being introduced? The Government believe that businesses breaking the law necessitating HSE involvement should pay for their time in either helping putting it right or taking enforcement action.
4. When is it being introduced? 1st October 2012 in England, Wales and Scotland (no date present for NI and not in EIRE)
5. What will it cost ? The whole of the inspectors time in dealing with the material breach is chargeable at £124 per hour
The HSE predicts that a standard inspection visit:
resulting in a letter will be charged at £750
resulting in a notice being issued will be charged at £1,500
We understand this is a major adjustment for a lot of businesses to take on board so we are happy to assist with any enquiries to clear up those grey areas if you would like to know more and how to ensure your business is as secure as possible don’t hesitate to call.
Neil,
I have been watching the developments over the last two years towards this.
I feel this is a great step forward for the industry.
Most of the commercial companies I come into contact with on a regular basis will not be affected as they are already working within compliance of the law.
I am also pleased that a lot of sole traders that have been on the course in the last couple of years, and in particular the last year within the changes we have made to the courses will not have much to worry about.
The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs
Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole
What’s going to effect a lot of the Clean It Up sole traders is not having clear understanding of what’s right and wrong.
You only have to look at some of the posts we get about the course and Impact to see a lot of these traders are going to have problems.
You can’t make sound decisions if you don’t have the correct information.
What is for sure, the policing of compliance will get stricter.
The HSE and the EHO in particular will have a revenue stream, this will create a proactive drive in enforcement.
If you get caught working unsafely it’s going to cost you as cleaner.
I am sure already your reading between the lines, they are going to be a lot more vigilant.
Also Neil, this will encourage the duty holders (property owners) to support the window cleaning industry to provide sufficient funding within contract values so as to provide the correct contract values so we can work safely.
It’s just not that difficult really
-
I had an email today from a company I deal with. just wondered what your view on it is and whether you can see any impact on the industry.
>
>
>
FEE FOR INTERVENTION
As you may be aware already the Government has reduced its funding towards the Health & Safety industry by £40,000,000 a year, so in response to this huge cut back the industry must now largely fund itself and the way they are doing this is by making unannounced visits to places of business and being extremely attentive to finding fault. It is understandable that to maintain a perfectly safe environment in some industries is near impossible to do 7 days a week all year round so a daily routine check by a responsible member of staff can assist in order to prevent any repercussions because they have begun to take action on what some may consider very minor offences. Here is some information you should find very useful in regards to this subject
What you need to know
1. What is FFI? When HSE Inspectors find a ‘material breach’ of health and safety law that they have to investigate and follow up in writing the business owner will have to pay a fee.
2. What is a material breach? A contravention of the law necessitating a written report by the inspector (includes improvement and prohibition notices).
e.g. missing guards on machinery.
Presence of asbestos in damaged condition
Hazardous substances
Leaking machinery.
Fire safety equipment (tampered with)
Clear signage to fire exits
Eating facilities and restroom cleanliness
3. Why is it being introduced? The Government believe that businesses breaking the law necessitating HSE involvement should pay for their time in either helping putting it right or taking enforcement action.
4. When is it being introduced? 1st October 2012 in England, Wales and Scotland (no date present for NI and not in EIRE)
5. What will it cost ? The whole of the inspectors time in dealing with the material breach is chargeable at £124 per hour
The HSE predicts that a standard inspection visit:
resulting in a letter will be charged at £750
resulting in a notice being issued will be charged at £1,500
We understand this is a major adjustment for a lot of businesses to take on board so we are happy to assist with any enquiries to clear up those grey areas if you would like to know more and how to ensure your business is as secure as possible don’t hesitate to call.
Neil,
I have been watching the developments over the last two years towards this.
I feel this is a great step forward for the industry.
Most of the commercial companies I come into contact with on a regular basis will not be affected as they are already working within compliance of the law.
I am also pleased that a lot of sole traders that have been on the course in the last couple of years, and in particular the last year within the changes we have made to the courses will not have much to worry about.
The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs
Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole
What’s going to effect a lot of the Clean It Up sole traders is not having clear understanding of what’s right and wrong.
You only have to look at some of the posts we get about the course and Impact to see a lot of these traders are going to have problems.
You can’t make sound decisions if you don’t have the correct information.
What is for sure, the policing of compliance will get stricter.
The HSE and the EHO in particular will have a revenue stream, this will create a proactive drive in enforcement.
If you get caught working unsafely it’s going to cost you as cleaner.
I am sure already your reading between the lines, they are going to be a lot more vigilant.
Also Neil, this will encourage the duty holders (property owners) to support the window cleaning industry to provide sufficient funding within contract values so as to provide the correct contract values so we can work safely.
It’s just not that difficult really
It's this simple
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/trainingcoursesfull.php?id=55
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What is the problem with working off 1st floor flat roofs as long as ladder is safe and roof good and care taken?
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What is the problem with working off 1st floor flat roofs as long as ladder is safe and roof good and care taken?
Rest my case ::)
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Thanks Andrew.
It will be interesting to see how it develops but knowing how most of these things work they will use it to their advantage and start jumping on people to keep themselves employed.
Its a bit like speed cameras, we are told they are there for safety but we all know income is a major factor.
Better get my safety check forms up to date, and buy some more cones ;)
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What is the problem with working off 1st floor flat roofs as long as ladder is safe and roof good and care taken?
Rest my case ::)
Walked into that one Steve! ;D
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Which is safer - working from a flat roof or working from a ladder?
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What is the problem with working off 1st floor flat roofs as long as ladder is safe and roof good and care taken?
Rest my case ::)
Walked into that one Steve! ;D
Not at all. He stated NO working off of flat roofs. That is a big statement to make so I would like to know why HSE is wrong and he is right. HSE don't state NO working off flat roofs.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf
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I would also like to know why working from a flat roof is more dangerous than working from a platform.
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To be honest though, I do get irritated by a spammer who benefits financially from some of the extreme 'elf and safety nonsense telling us how we are all doomed idiots.
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Health and Safety is not nonsense. It has helped to save many lives.
However when Health and Safety becomes a revenue stream questions have to be asked about motives
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Health and Safety is not nonsense. It has helped to save many lives.
However when Health and Safety becomes a revenue stream questions have to be asked about motives
Which is why I used theword extreme.
Quite.
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
hi Nick
i am currently in the middle of the impact 43 course and firmly disagree with cordoning off the fall area of the pole but when you say it is not the law this can depend on how you interpret the law because as andrew showed it is our responsibility to prevent any falling objects and if the pole falls and was to hit someone it could be argued we did not take enough precautions, my argument was that if we was hold of the pole then surely that would be classed as a reasonable precaution, i could understand if a pole was left extended and unatended being a risk. i could understand maybe having a banksman are cordoning offwhen using poles over 50ft to warn pedestrians and this is something i have already done in the past but surely for poles smaller than this the risk is miniscule
This is what worries me about these checks and has already been mentioned in that they will be used as a way to raise revenue and lots of little hitlers will be wandering about interpreting the law in a way that suits them just to raise funds
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There's no problem at all with working on flat 1st floor roofs in the vast majority of cases. However there is under health and safety law in this country. So reality now becomes a bit more removed from legislation. Health & Safety used correctly will save lives no doubt whatsoever. The question is are we using it correctly? IMO absolutely not. We are creating legislation for the sake of it.
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saw today a scafold rail around a flat roof less than 15 feet from the ground so that an ajoining small wall could be coated ,guyes were a long way from the edge .made me wonder what safety measures we should use when working from a flat roof ???
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saw today a scafold rail around a flat roof less than 15 feet from the ground so that an ajoining small wall could be coated ,guyes were a long way from the edge .made me wonder what safety measures we should use when working from a flat roof ???
According to HSE guidelines a securely attached lanyard, but according to my wife there is always "reasonable and practicable" exception and cleaning one window above a flat roof on someone elses property would be one of those. No doubt some will argue, but when you look at likelihood and impact, you would have to be pretty odd to see the necessity for a lanyard tethered to your customer's property.
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
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Does anybody know the actual statistics for accidents caused by unattended or poorly supervised waterfed poles during the last year or so?
Would be interesting reading :)
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
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^^ Creating a solution to a problem that didn't exist methinks ;D ;D
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying to tar all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?
But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?
Well I don't think it is against the law to ever work on a flat roof. You do think it is against the law?
The HSE don't think it is according to the paper I linked to above. If I am wrong, I am wrong and would rather know than carry on.
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?
You'd make a great politician - answering a question with a garbled answer
" and are trying tar is all of us with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one"
Brill ;D
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?
You'd make a great politician - answering a question with a garbled answer
" and are trying tar is all of us with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one"
Brill ;D
It is an improvement over ' phone me and i will tell you '
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But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.
i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem
Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"
When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.
or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?
You'd make a great politician - answering a question with a garbled answer
" and are trying tar is all of us with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one"
Brill ;D
It is an improvement over ' phone me and i will tell you to call me
James don't be a hater because I didn't ask you to calll
For your information I have helped a lot of people from here and all over the place with my knowledge, I try to add value for people should you ever meet me you would see this.
Thank you for your worthwhile post
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
hi Nick
i am currently in the middle of the impact 43 course and firmly disagree with cordoning off the fall area of the pole but when you say it is not the law this can depend on how you interpret the law because as andrew showed it is our responsibility to prevent any falling objects and if the pole falls and was to hit someone it could be argued we did not take enough precautions, my argument was that if we was hold of the pole then surely that would be classed as a reasonable precaution, i could understand if a pole was left extended and unatended being a risk. i could understand maybe having a banksman are cordoning offwhen using poles over 50ft to warn pedestrians and this is something i have already done in the past but surely for poles smaller than this the risk is miniscule
This is what worries me about these checks and has already been mentioned in that they will be used as a way to raise revenue and lots of little hitlers will be wandering about interpreting the law in a way that suits them just to raise funds
Totally disagree with this comment
Its got nothing to do with you holding the pole
The law is clear
Trevor I will cover this more in workshop 3
Your view is incorrect
I will explain this in more detail
as always regards Andy
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
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you could always go on the course , its free for many . well worth your time . andrew willis is a health and safety jedi.. if its anything like other trades hse will drag window cleaning trade up to the same safety as the building trade. be prepared. and you get certification to prove you are trained in your job whether you think its worthless or not. the goverment aren't funding this to make andrew rich.
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LOL at Andrew willis.
Not that it is any of your concern, but I do have a training certificate for waterfed poles, from the BWCA when I did a course with them. But even if I hadn't you are still dodging the question.
The point you were on about in your article wasn't ablout lack of training, it was about not courdoning off the area when using poles.
In case you forget, this is what you actually said:
"So what happens if a cleaner drops a pole onto a member of the public? Regulation 10 of the Working at Height Legislation covers falling objects, and makes it clear that in order to fully comply with the law, a safety zone should be demarcated, ideally including cones, tape and barriers. There should also be clear signs indicating that work is iin progress, and that there may be a falling objects hazard. Such barriers and signs are frequently missing."
Now, to put it bluntly, its my opinion that what you've said there is a load of rubbish, for the simple reason that doing so would not be "reasonably practicable", and the work at height regs always say that they apply as long as it is reasonably practicable.
So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this? Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?
Yes or no?
(And "our training course deals with all that" is not an answer)
PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?
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It's a bit like when recently I did an end of build clean of 8 houses on a building site. The foreman said to me that ladders were not to be used even though I had said I'd not be using them.
When I asked why no ladders are to be used, he didn't really know or have an exact answer except 'H & S regulations'.
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Ladders are not actually banned for residential work are they? Neither is access by ladder and yet working from a flat roof is?
Correct or not?
When are the courses coming to Wilts?
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Im gonna chip in here and say that my own thoughts are the PUWER 1998 regulations are being used in the wrong context here.
Realistically the PUWER regulations make a lot of sense when concerned with portable power tools, static machinery, lifting equipment etc.
But to apply these regulations to the use of a "brush on a stick" instead of using common sense is quite silly in my opinion.
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I don't understand why some posters have been so rude with their comments on this thread.
Training and keeping up to date with the latest regulation changes are a major concern for all businesses as well as a major headache.
A company comes along to fill a need in the market place focused on window cleaning and some get "hot under the collar."
If they (Impact43) didn't train people to the 'letter of the law' then they would be failing in their duty to provide proper training. Unfortunately, interpretation of rules differs among those in the industry which doesn't make it any easier for us.
There was a recent poster on here that couldn't get a new job quoted for accepted as his risk assessment and method statement regarding cleaning from a flat roof was rejected.
When he sat down with them they were quite happy for him to tape a 'no go area' 1 Meter from the edge of the roof and he was never to step outside that demarcation.
This flat roof was also used as a fire escape. Someone in authority must have signed this fire escape route off as acceptable, but logically, with fire, smoke and panicking employees, is an unguarded edge an acceptable fire escape? Is it safe?
The way I see it is that when you are young you are immortal - nothing can go wrong - you are in control. Unfortunately, from personal experience, you then realise that as you get older this isn't the case and anything can happen.
What happens if you have a heart attack while you are working with your pole on say the 2nd story. No matter what, when my brother died of a heart attack, he was standing one moment, collapsed and died the next. Had he have been using a 40' pole with people in the fall area, they could have been hit with his pole - he would have had no control over that.
The same senario can be applied to your flat roof issue. What happens if you have a heart attack while up on the flat roof? Having an adaquate fall arrest system may save you from falling off the building during the episode - whats the point in having a recoverable heart attack but dying from the injuries sustained in that fall?
The regulations have been put in place to cover everyone. Whilst our window cleaner statistics of falling from a flat roof are very small I would imagine, roofers will have a totally different statistic.
I know 2 in the local area who have received major injuries with a long recuperation time. I noticed that 1 of them was doing a job with all the safety scaffolding etc, so he has learnt his lesson.
The other is still suffering from brain damage he received in his fall and will never work again. When he fell, he landed on a brick gate post with one of those concrete cone caps. Is he lucky to be alive? Questionable?
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What happens if I have a heart attack whilst driving the car? Or walking upstairs and i fall backwards, crossing the road, holding a baby, riding a bike and on it goes.
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What happens if I have a heart attack whilst driving the car? Or walking upstairs and i fall backwards, crossing the road, holding a baby, riding a bike and on it goes.
There is a fat guy works in a shop.
What if he has a heart attack and falls on someone?
Does he need a cordon?
;D
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LOL at Andrew willis.
Not that it is any of your concern, but I do have a training certificate for waterfed poles, from the BWCA when I did a course with them. But even if I hadn't you are still dodging the question.
The point you were on about in your article wasn't ablout lack of training, it was about not courdoning off the area when using poles.
In case you forget, this is what you actually said:
"So what happens if a cleaner drops a pole onto a member of the public? Regulation 10 of the Working at Height Legislation covers falling objects, and makes it clear that in order to fully comply with the law, a safety zone should be demarcated, ideally including cones, tape and barriers. There should also be clear signs indicating that work is iin progress, and that there may be a falling objects hazard. Such barriers and signs are frequently missing."
Now, to put it bluntly, its my opinion that what you've said there is a load of rubbish, for the simple reason that doing so would not be "reasonably practicable", and the work at height regs always say that they apply as long as it is reasonably practicable.
So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this? Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?
Yes or no?
(And "our training course deals with all that" is not an answer)
PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?
Load it up then Nick lol
"reasonably practicable".
I cover this in the course......what is the known calculation that a judge uses on this?
Andy
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So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this? Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?
Yes or no?
well?
Are you going to answer or not?
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LOL at Andrew willis.
Not that it is any of your concern, but I do have a training certificate for waterfed poles, from the BWCA when I did a course with them. But even if I hadn't you are still dodging the question.
The point you were on about in your article wasn't ablout lack of training, it was about not courdoning off the area when using poles.
In case you forget, this is what you actually said:
"So what happens if a cleaner drops a pole onto a member of the public? Regulation 10 of the Working at Height Legislation covers falling objects, and makes it clear that in order to fully comply with the law, a safety zone should be demarcated, ideally including cones, tape and barriers. There should also be clear signs indicating that work is iin progress, and that there may be a falling objects hazard. Such barriers and signs are frequently missing."
Now, to put it bluntly, its my opinion that what you've said there is a load of rubbish, for the simple reason that doing so would not be "reasonably practicable", and the work at height regs always say that they apply as long as it is reasonably practicable.
So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this? Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?
Yes or no?
(And "our training course deals with all that" is not an answer)
PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?
Load it up then Nick lol
"reasonably practicable".
I cover this in the course......what is the known calculation that a judge uses on this?
Andy
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/alarpglance.htm
"It requires judgment. There is no simple formula for computing what is ALARP."
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Nice link soapy.
Now, once again andy, are you going to answer the question?
You said in your article that over 90% of window cleaning with waterfed pole was illegal because people don't courdon off the area to prevent the risk of falling poles.
Do you stand by this or not? Do you think we should all be courdoning off the area when we use waterfed poles?
Its a very simple question. It literally is a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
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LOL at Andrew willis.
PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?
I preferred this line if i am honest
If not stop posting on these items
He told ya good and proper
Be warned though, he is like a god on here, can get away with posting what he likes ( as can his family ) if you post against him the thread will be locked / deleted in the end, might be due to him paying for a advert on here ?
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Nice link soapy.
Now, once again andy, are you going to answer the question?
You said in your article that over 90% of window cleaning with waterfed pole was illegal because people don't courdon off the area to prevent the risk of falling poles.
Do you stand by this or not? Do you think we should all be courdoning off the area when we use waterfed poles?
Its a very simple question. It literally is a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I must have missed this post, as its just plain idiotic, do we have to have portable traffic lights when we force pedestrians into the road ? i guess would will need to provide a safe walkway for them into the road ?
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Andrew Willis still hasn't explained why we should not work on flat roofs. I understand that there are risks and certain actions (most blindingly obvious) that we need to be mindful of, but to state no working off flat roofs at all is plain silly and wrong.
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Andrew Willis still hasn't explained why we should not work on flat roofs. I understand that there are risks and certain actions (most blindingly obvious) that we need to be mindful of, but to state no working off flat roofs at all is plain silly and wrong.
Surely after performing a risk assessment it may be the case that access via a flat roof is the safest reasonably practicable method of cleaning the window?
I have cleaned schools where the building was actually designed for the windows to be cleaned from the flat roof, indeed the facilities management company in charge of the school insisted that I clean it this way.
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Andrew that bit in red; would you point me to where PUWER 98 says I need a training certificate for using a wfp please?
I understand that I and any employee should know how to use it properly and safely but I do not see the requirement for a certificate.
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Andrew Willis still hasn't explained why we should not work on flat roofs. I understand that there are risks and certain actions (most blindingly obvious) that we need to be mindful of, but to state no working off flat roofs at all is plain silly and wrong.
Surely after performing a risk assessment it may be the case that access via a flat roof is the safest reasonably practicable method of cleaning the window?
I have cleaned schools where the building was actually designed for the windows to be cleaned from the flat roof, indeed the facilities management company in charge of the school insisted that I clean it this way.
Me too!
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i know someone that broke a fingernail working on a flat roof . after that you wont get me on one
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I think you lack one thing Mr willis.
It's called common sence 8)
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Andrew that bit in red; would you point me to where PUWER 98 says I need a training certificate for using a wfp please?
I understand that I and any employee should know how to use it properly and safely but I do not see the requirement for a certificate.
It doesn't ........http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf?catalogueCode=9780717662852 is this the mob that asked for your client list based in Lincolnshire and then canvased the work? I have been on shed loads of Health and safety courses when i was in Printing and been on Two with the BWCA for water fed pole. I have never heard of such crap.
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Andrew that bit in red; would you point me to where PUWER 98 says I need a training certificate for using a wfp please?
I understand that I and any employee should know how to use it properly and safely but I do not see the requirement for a certificate.
My guess is that it doesnt
Of course that is not what Mr Willis wants you to know, afterall he makes money out of providing these worthless NVQ certificates
( i have crossed out the worthless bit, it will save the mods deleting it ;))
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Sometimes with health and safety you get so caught up in regulation, and theory that you need to step back and look at the practical reality of implementation.
I think we all agree that cordoning off radius area of equi length to your pole is impracticable and infeasible. However it is good to be made aware of such an issue occurring.
Health and Safety cannot do the thinking for an individual only give them the theory.
It is ultimately up to each and everyone of us to take the safety of our selves, members of the public and employees into account and find the safest and most practical way to clean a window etc etc
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Quite agree Alex.
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Sometimes with health and safety you get so caught up in regulation, and theory that you need to step back and look at the practical reality of implementation.
I think we all agree that cordoning off radius area of equi length to your pole is impracticable and infeasible. However it is good to be made aware of such an issue occurring.
Health and Safety cannot do the thinking for an individual only give them the theory.
It is ultimately up to each and everyone of us to take the safety of our selves, members of the public and employees into account and find the safest and most practical way to clean a window etc etc
Agree'd
Its called common sense is it not ? something Mr Willis implies WC'ers do not possess
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Andrew Willis still hasn't explained why we should not work on flat roofs. I understand that there are risks and certain actions (most blindingly obvious) that we need to be mindful of, but to state no working off flat roofs at all is plain silly and wrong.
Guessing now but often there is no way of being certain if the roof can hold a person's weight unless it is stress tested periodically. Also, you are supposed to be at least 6 feet from the edge unless there are barriers to stop a fall. You could not be 6 feet from the edge while getting on and off a ladder.
Funnily enough, I'm about to drop two link detached houses over this type of issue: specifically because the ladder must be placed on the ground from the roof and it's not possible to test how slippery the ground is. This is nothing to do with recent possible changes in law. It's something that I've felt uncomfortable about for some time and should have acted sooner.
I read this with interest as i have this scenario(flat roof,ladder up, across and then down at the back).It is almost totally safe for me though, even though its a pain in the backside,i have a laddersafe fitted and so i just shove the ladder down and out until its basically hooked on at the top,it really is extremely secure.It is a prize possession of mine.
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Andrew Willis still hasn't explained why we should not work on flat roofs. I understand that there are risks and certain actions (most blindingly obvious) that we need to be mindful of, but to state no working off flat roofs at all is plain silly and wrong.
Guessing now but often there is no way of being certain if the roof can hold a person's weight unless it is stress tested periodically. Also, you are supposed to be at least 6 feet from the edge unless there are barriers to stop a fall. You could not be 6 feet from the edge while getting on and off a ladder.
Funnily enough, I'm about to drop two link detached houses over this type of issue: specifically because the ladder must be placed on the ground from the roof and it's not possible to test how slippery the ground is. This is nothing to do with recent possible changes in law. It's something that I've felt uncomfortable about for some time and should have acted sooner.
I read this with interest as i have this scenario(flat roof,ladder up, across and then down at the back).It is almost totally safe for me though, even though its a pain in the backside,i have a laddersafe fitted and so i just shove the ladder down and out until its basically hooked on at the top,it really is extremely secure.It is a prize possession of mine.
BUT have you got a NVQ to tell you it is safe ?
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I've read some rubbish in my time on here but this Impact lot take the biscuit! ;D ;D
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I've read some rubbish in my time on here but this Impact lot take the biscuit! ;D ;D
No No No
You can only have a biscuit if you pass the NVQ course ( i say pass, is possible to fail NVQ level 1 ? ) the biscuit add's value to the course
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I've read some rubbish in my time on here but this Impact lot take the biscuit! ;D ;D
whys that winpro ?
James it is possible to fail
it seems just because your not interested it has to be a waste of time, is it because you know everything already?
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i think i should stay in bed all today i be no risk to any one then
life is a big risk,LOOK AT TOSH ;D ;D ;D
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I'm fully qualified in H&S with IOSH and NEBOSH certification.
basically loads of people in the industry now take the most extreme measures of making sure nothing happens when in reality it should be managed carefully. By managing carefully most risks can be eliminated without annoying everyone with paperwork and over the top management.
It really cracks me up the amount of scaremainering by people who really dont have a clue. Saw it in my previous jobs and at H&S meeting and during audits.
taking a common sense approach is the best way.
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I've read some b***ocks in my time on here but this Impact lot take the biscuit! ;D ;D
w
it seems just because your not interested it has to be a waste of time, is it because you know everything already?
Do i know everything, no
Do i need a worthless certificate, no
Do i earn a very good living from window cleaning, yes
Do i need Mr Willis to tell me how to work safely, no i can use my own common sense
I work on various sites with very strict H&S policies, work with the client, listen to what they want, i know 100 % that if i arrived on-site giving it the 'big un' with my NVQ they would laugh in my face
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its amazing what people will tell you just so you will sign up for a course that will make them money. iam sorry to say that most H&S people have little man syndrome.
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i bet your taking risks james leet but you dont know it yet 8) 8)
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i bet your taking risks james leet but you dont know it yet 8) 8)
we all take risks everyday, just crossing the road is a risk!!. where does it stop thats the question? if it was down to impact 43 we would never get out of bed as we might slip over on the bathroom floor.
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i bet your taking risks james leet but you dont know it yet 8) 8)
we all take risks everyday, just crossing the road is a risk!!. where does it stop thats the question? if it was down to impact 43 we would never get out of bed as we might slip over on the bathroom floor.
Agree'd
Controlled risks is the key here
Impact are not running these courses to ' save the WC'er ' they are making money out of it, people here seem to have forgotten that, the more they persuade that it is a must, the more money they make
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i agree let them make money and and learn us more 8) 8)
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i agree let them make money and and learn us more 8) 8)
you need to take those dark glasses of the smiley faces and see the light.
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ok no problem but these people are working hard to change
no smiley
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i bet your taking risks james leet but you dont know it yet 8) 8)
we all take risks everyday, just crossing the road is a risk!!. where does it stop thats the question? if it was down to impact 43 we would never get out of bed as we might slip over on the bathroom floor.
Agree'd
Controlled risks is the key here
Impact are not running these courses to ' save the WC'er ' they are making money out of it, people here seem to have forgotten that, the more they persuade that it is a must, the more money they make
james do you Make money from your business? Do you lie to make it ?
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i bet your taking risks james leet but you dont know it yet 8) 8)
we all take risks everyday, just crossing the road is a risk!!. where does it stop thats the question? if it was down to impact 43 we would never get out of bed as we might slip over on the bathroom floor.
Agree'd
Controlled risks is the key here
Impact are not running these courses to ' save the WC'er ' they are making money out of it, people here seem to have forgotten that, the more they persuade that it is a must, the more money they make
james do you Make money from your business? Do you lie to make it ?
i make a living but i just clean windows, to most of my customers i am the last thing they think about in there lives, i do my job and get paid. if i started giving my customers all of this H7S crap they would find somebody eles asap
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I'm fully qualified in H&S with IOSH and NEBOSH certification.
basically loads of people in the industry now take the most extreme measures of making sure nothing happens when in reality it should be managed carefully. By managing carefully most risks can be eliminated without annoying everyone with paperwork and over the top management.
It really cracks me up the amount of scaremainering by people who really dont have a clue. Saw it in my previous jobs and at H&S meeting and during audits.
taking a common sense approach is the best way.
like, and he is properly qualified
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I'm fully qualified in H&S with IOSH and NEBOSH certification.
basically loads of people in the industry now take the most extreme measures of making sure nothing happens when in reality it should be managed carefully. By managing carefully most risks can be eliminated without annoying everyone with paperwork and over the top management.
It really cracks me up the amount of scaremainering by people who really dont have a clue. Saw it in my previous jobs and at H&S meeting and during audits.
taking a common sense approach is the best way.
like, and he is properly qualified
liked
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I'm fully qualified in H&S with IOSH and NEBOSH certification.
basically loads of people in the industry now take the most extreme measures of making sure nothing happens when in reality it should be managed carefully. By managing carefully most risks can be eliminated without annoying everyone with paperwork and over the top management.
It really cracks me up the amount of scaremainering by people who really dont have a clue. Saw it in my previous jobs and at H&S meeting and during audits.
taking a common sense approach is the best way.
like, and he is properly qualified
i used to speak to him a lot before he moved out of his job into window cleaning nice guy, remember helping him out :)
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
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So why can't the impact team answer simple questions? It's no good making out we are all morons, then telling us we are breaking the law and telling us to attend their courses. If they aren't willing to talk to us then they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.
Ian, you work with them but can't communicate any more why can't you talk?
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
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I'm fully qualified in H&S with IOSH and NEBOSH certification.
basically loads of people in the industry now take the most extreme measures of making sure nothing happens when in reality it should be managed carefully. By managing carefully most risks can be eliminated without annoying everyone with paperwork and over the top management.
It really cracks me up the amount of scaremainering by people who really dont have a clue. Saw it in my previous jobs and at H&S meeting and during audits.
taking a common sense approach is the best way.
like, and he is properly qualified
i used to speak to him a lot before he moved out of his job into window cleaning nice guy, remember helping him out :)
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
no I am not a troll, I am always open to learning ;)
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So why can't the impact team answer simple questions? It's no good making out we are all morons and telling us to attend their courses. If they aren't willing to talk to us then they can bugger off as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe they don't sit on ciu all day mark etting you will get reply I'm sure, maybe they are not here tonight, be be honest I shouldnt be either but this dipstick on tv my wife's watching is boring me :)
Why don't you travel if you want to go on the course I had too
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in the forces the rules are when you go through your lance jacks course beware of career stoppers give them time 8) 8)
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I'm fully qualified in H&S with IOSH and NEBOSH certification.
basically loads of people in the industry now take the most extreme measures of making sure nothing happens when in reality it should be managed carefully. By managing carefully most risks can be eliminated without annoying everyone with paperwork and over the top management.
It really cracks me up the amount of scaremainering by people who really dont have a clue. Saw it in my previous jobs and at H&S meeting and during audits.
taking a common sense approach is the best way.
like, and he is properly qualified
i used to speak to him a lot before he moved out of his job into window cleaning nice guy, remember helping him out :)
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
no I am not a troll, I am always open to learning ;)
sorry mate replied from mobile whilst watch crap tv was not aimed at you, trolls know who they Are, they always put everything down join other trolls to make them feel there posts are justified and help know one. All forums sadly have them. Sorry Stuart ;)
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Ian,
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
I have no wish to travel thanks I have too much work. However, if the course was near by I might attend but Impact are losing the plot a bit on this forum.
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i'm no troll.
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i'm no troll.
lol
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To cordon off a public highway dont you need council agreement first ?
And by doing so arent you then adding risk to the public by passing traffic,so then you need to add road signs so as to advise them (trafic)people are crossing then road.
So these road signs ,i would of thought would have to be put at least 50 yards either side.Then theres all theses cones ,i have only just got my lastest van.I new that HGV truck was what i should of got to carry all these signsand cones, Dam live and learn ;D
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this all a load of bollacks, thank you and goodnight
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To cordon off a public highway dont you need council agreement first ?
And by doing so arent you then adding risk to the public by passing traffic,so then you need to add road signs so as to advise them (trafic)people are crossing then road.
So these road signs ,i would of thought would have to be put at least 50 yards either side.Then theres all theses cones ,i have only just got my lastest van.I new that HGV truck was what i should of got to carry all these signsand cones, Dam live and learn ;D
you live on the isle of whitenist rhings are 20 years in front of you fella, I'm down at Christmas if you fancy having a coffee or a beer
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I'm a bit of a hermit at chrismas,just decked out on the sofa with a bottle of remy martin cognac champagne ;D give me a shout closer to xmas
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To cordon off a public highway dont you need council agreement first ?
And by doing so arent you then adding risk to the public by passing traffic,so then you need to add road signs so as to advise them (trafic)people are crossing then road.
So these road signs ,i would of thought would have to be put at least 50 yards either side.Then theres all theses cones ,i have only just got my lastest van.I new that HGV truck was what i should of got to carry all these signsand cones, Dam live and learn ;D
I made a similar post earlier, add some traffic lights to your HGV
watch it though, Window Washers will be onto you aswell, he doesnt like people criticizing his mates
Nice link soapy.
Now, once again andy, are you going to answer the question?
You said in your article that over 90% of window cleaning with waterfed pole was illegal because people don't courdon off the area to prevent the risk of falling poles.
Do you stand by this or not? Do you think we should all be courdoning off the area when we use waterfed poles?
Its a very simple question. It literally is a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I must have missed this post, as its just plain idiotic, do we have to have portable traffic lights when we force pedestrians into the road ? i guess would will need to provide a safe walkway for them into the road ?
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I am qualified at not very much if I need a certificate, but I am trained in the writing of risk assessments and method statements and coshh, also first aid, fire fighting and lots of other things, also trained in ladder use and wfp, can I prove any of it, no probably not, well maybe I could if I went up the attic and pulled a few course contents apart.
I took on a young lad via our local council and I was interviewed and interrogated by the H&S guy, he was happy with my answers, and allowed me to put the lad on a few courses, including using a ladder.
a H&S bloke from a job I did in a bus station rightly kicked the last contractor of site as he tried to wfp the windows in the day time. he tried to pull me up at 5am, I pointed out the risks of ladders and the lesser risk of tripping with no one around at 5am, he went for the lesser risk ;D it is common sense on most parts but I suppose a certificate helps protect you in case of a court case
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You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
Have i read that you do work for Mr Willis, i guess that means you have a ' vested interest ' , so i guess we shouldnt really take much notice as you wouldnt want to bite that the hand and all that
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Ian,
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
That would make them working ' Illegal " though ::)
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I don't believe anyone fails a NVQ course in washing windows if so they must require constant care and attention ;D
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I am not a troll. I simply asked David what was wrong with working on flat roofs after he said that to keep legal we shouldn't and he held that question up as an example of ignorant window cleaners with a sarcastic comment. I then posted a link to a HSE paper that showed he was talking rubbish. Since then, other than a couple of "late night insights" he has not answered my question.
What is the problem with working off 1st floor flat roofs as long as ladder is safe and roof good and care taken?
Rest my case ::)
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Fact Mr willis makes money out of his courses
Fact Mr willis treats people on this forum like idiots
Fact Mr willis never answers a question when challenged
Fact Mr willis is protected by the mods
I rest my case
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The suppliers MUST only sell these lethal weapons on proof of a license being held, it's the only way we can put an end to all this madness!
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Fact Mr willis makes money out of his courses
Fact Mr willis treats people on this forum like idiots
Fact Mr willis never answers a question when challenged
Fact Mr willis is protected by the mods
I rest my case
Correct
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to be fair this topic has gone off topic to what it started and has turned into a slateing of andrew and impact 43, at the start of the topic it was discussed about increasing random visits to businesses by HSE officials and the handing out of fines for mis compliance it has now turned into what is acceptable practice and what isnt, in defence of Andrew he has run a cleaning business in the past and has been on the recieving end of a safety investigation so he has a very good insight into how HSE operate, on his course he shows the HSE legislation and how it may be interpreted, this is where i think the problem starts in that i and many others interprit these in a different way than Andrew or the HSE may do so arguments arise, whether any choose to do the course or not is upto them but the course is certainly a starting point to understanding what is expected of us in the workplace and how the HSE work, but getting back to the main topic is the concern of how strict these HSE visits are going to be and are they just a means of raising money i know for a fact that even after attending the impact 43 course and even if you put into practice all the areas andrew covered you would still not be compliant with the regs and could be open to a fine, Andrew may disagree with this last statement but i have come to realise me and Andrew disagree on a lot of things but i still value his opinion.
The truth is we all want to work safe and most of us would be horified if we where to cause ourselves or anybody else any major injury, Andrew is running a business but he is also running a service in helping us understand HSE regs and work safer i like many others have the opinion these regs have gone to far in some areas ie risk of falling poles and working of low flat roofs but we have to face it on many sites these regulations will be interpreted the way andrew says and firms will be made to work this way or loose the contract, i know personally on many jobs i wont follow these regs fully even though i kmow i am working safely but i also know if an accident happened i would be accountable for the actions i took by the HSE and solicitors chaseing a claim, i am also certain i could walk into any business going even Andrews and point to a mis compliance of some regulation so i guess we will just have to wait and see how many of these HSE visits happen, how strict the process is and finally what sort of fines they hand out untill then i think it is good to have discussions on these topics to try and come to an industry standard of practice that we all can follow where common sense prevails.
i better go and put my hard hat on now ready for the barage of abuse ;D ;D
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Mr Willis is no more protected than any other user - FACT
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Ian
The course is impossible to fail, that is one thing I do agree with.
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to be fair this topic has gone off topic to what it started and has turned into a slateing of andrew and impact 43, at the start of the topic it was discussed about increasing random visits to businesses by HSE officials and the handing out of fines for mis compliance it has now turned into what is acceptable practice and what isnt, in defence of Andrew he has run a cleaning business in the past and has been on the recieving end of a safety investigation so he has a very good insight into how HSE operate, on his course he shows the HSE legislation and how it may be interpreted, this is where i think the problem starts in that i and many others interprit these in a different way than Andrew or the HSE may do so arguments arise, whether any choose to do the course or not is upto them but the course is certainly a starting point to understanding what is expected of us in the workplace and how the HSE work, but getting back to the main topic is the concern of how strict these HSE visits are going to be and are they just a means of raising money i know for a fact that even after attending the impact 43 course and even if you put into practice all the areas andrew covered you would still not be compliant with the regs and could be open to a fine, Andrew may disagree with this last statement but i have come to realise me and Andrew disagree on a lot of things but i still value his opinion.
The truth is we all want to work safe and most of us would be horified if we where to cause ourselves or anybody else any major injury, Andrew is running a business but he is also running a service in helping us understand HSE regs and work safer i like many others have the opinion these regs have gone to far in some areas ie risk of falling poles and working of low flat roofs but we have to face it on many sites these regulations will be interpreted the way andrew says and firms will be made to work this way or loose the contract, i know personally on many jobs i wont follow these regs fully even though i kmow i am working safely but i also know if an accident happened i would be accountable for the actions i took by the HSE and solicitors chaseing a claim, i am also certain i could walk into any business going even Andrews and point to a mis compliance of some regulation so i guess we will just have to wait and see how many of these HSE visits happen, how strict the process is and finally what sort of fines they hand out untill then i think it is good to have discussions on these topics to try and come to an industry standard of practice that we all can follow where common sense prevails.
i better go and put my hard hat on now ready for the barage of abuse ;D ;D
[/quote
like what he said
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There are some things health and safety haven't even noticed - at the moment there is no limit to the height of pole you wish to use and any numpty can lash together a few fishing poles and be a hero. Anyone can bungy chord a 1000l tank in the van if they so wish. We can all still use ladders if we like. We can use 240v guttervacs if we so wish and run them in the rain if we feel like it.
HSE is an arse.
Quality post by Trevor Perry by the way.
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There are some things health and safety haven't even noticed - at the moment there is no limit to the height of pole you wish to use and any numpty can lash together a few fishing poles and be a hero. Anyone can bungy chord a 1000l tank in the van if they so wish. We can all still use ladders if we like. We can use 240v guttervacs if we so wish and run them in the rain if we feel like it.
HSE is an arse.
this is covered in the course. It's shocking what some have in the back of their vans, but it seems many don't know the danger of what they are doing till it is explained
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Wow it looks like I opened a can of worms with this topic :o Apart from the slating of Andrew Willis its good that so many views come across.
I would not have put Andrews name in the title if I had thought it would turn into (as Mr Cameron said recently) a witch hunt. I asked Andrews opinion as I do think he "knows his onions"
like him or not, agree with his courses or not I don't think anyone can argue that his intentions are good and he has helped a lot of people, myself included. And why would he not wish to earn a living from that? he would be a fool not to.
Maybe the certificate I received at the end was useless (not even sure where it is) but what was not useless are the things I learned about working more safely and within the law.
If the HSE do start spot checks then perhaps a little of what I learned and have put into practice will help. if I don't implement it, then its my own fault. If I didn't bother to learn my responsibility in the first place, then I have no excuse.
I think people are to quick to judge Andrew if they have not done his course. It seems those who have done it generally speak highly of him. Surely that speaks volumes!
It will be interesting to see what happens when the first window cleaning company is chosen by the HSE and if it sets them on a path to look at others.
Who will it be? You perhaps? ;D
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I'm not against Andrew - I don't know the guy. I am wound up by a couple of statements he made though only to be told to join the course when asked for an explanation.
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Mr Willis is no more protected than any other user - FACT
I Notice he has ignored this post Dave
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Mr Willis is no more protected than any other user - FACT
I Notice he has ignored this post Dave
james he may have a life away from ciu
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to be fair this topic has gone off topic to what it started and has turned into a slateing of andrew and impact 43, at the start of the topic it was discussed about increasing random visits to businesses by HSE officials and the handing out of fines for mis compliance it has now turned into what is acceptable practice and what isnt, in defence of Andrew he has run a cleaning business in the past and has been on the recieving end of a safety investigation so he has a very good insight into how HSE operate, on his course he shows the HSE legislation and how it may be interpreted, this is where i think the problem starts in that i and many others interprit these in a different way than Andrew or the HSE may do so arguments arise, whether any choose to do the course or not is upto them but the course is certainly a starting point to understanding what is expected of us in the workplace and how the HSE work, but getting back to the main topic is the concern of how strict these HSE visits are going to be and are they just a means of raising money i know for a fact that even after attending the impact 43 course and even if you put into practice all the areas andrew covered you would still not be compliant with the regs and could be open to a fine, Andrew may disagree with this last statement but i have come to realise me and Andrew disagree on a lot of things but i still value his opinion.
The truth is we all want to work safe and most of us would be horified if we where to cause ourselves or anybody else any major injury, Andrew is running a business but he is also running a service in helping us understand HSE regs and work safer i like many others have the opinion these regs have gone to far in some areas ie risk of falling poles and working of low flat roofs but we have to face it on many sites these regulations will be interpreted the way andrew says and firms will be made to work this way or loose the contract, i know personally on many jobs i wont follow these regs fully even though i kmow i am working safely but i also know if an accident happened i would be accountable for the actions i took by the HSE and solicitors chaseing a claim, i am also certain i could walk into any business going even Andrews and point to a mis compliance of some regulation so i guess we will just have to wait and see how many of these HSE visits happen, how strict the process is and finally what sort of fines they hand out untill then i think it is good to have discussions on these topics to try and come to an industry standard of practice that we all can follow where common sense prevails.
i better go and put my hard hat on now ready for the barage of abuse ;D ;D
I wanted to read all of what you said, but it is quite difficult with out paragraphs.
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James
Beleive it or not, everyone is treated equally, apart from suppliers who are treated less fairly by mods.
I see it as, if they come here to promote the goods, then they are opening themselves up for scrutiny, this does not mean that we will not step in if posters turn to personal attacks or go on a crusade
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James
Beleive it or not, everyone is treated equally, apart from suppliers who are treated less fairly by mods.
I see it as, if they come here to promote the goods, then they are opening themselves up for scrutiny, this does not mean that we will not step in if posters turn to personal attacks or go on a crusade
well said
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Ian
The course is impossible to fail, that is one thing I do agree with.
Lots of Ignoring going on eh, even with people who are on here right now
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LOL at Andrew willis.
Not that it is any of your concern, but I do have a training certificate for waterfed poles, from the BWCA when I did a course with them. But even if I hadn't you are still dodging the question.
The point you were on about in your article wasn't ablout lack of training, it was about not courdoning off the area when using poles.
In case you forget, this is what you actually said:
"So what happens if a cleaner drops a pole onto a member of the public? Regulation 10 of the Working at Height Legislation covers falling objects, and makes it clear that in order to fully comply with the law, a safety zone should be demarcated, ideally including cones, tape and barriers. There should also be clear signs indicating that work is iin progress, and that there may be a falling objects hazard. Such barriers and signs are frequently missing."
Now, to put it bluntly, its my opinion that what you've said there is a load of rubbish, for the simple reason that doing so would not be "reasonably practicable", and the work at height regs always say that they apply as long as it is reasonably practicable.
So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this? Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?
Yes or no?
(And "our training course deals with all that" is not an answer)
PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?
Dry sense of humour
Answer is yes
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Im gonna chip in here and say that my own thoughts are the PUWER 1998 regulations are being used in the wrong context here.
Realistically the PUWER regulations make a lot of sense when concerned with portable power tools, static machinery, lifting equipment etc.
But to apply these regulations to the use of a "brush on a stick" instead of using common sense is quite silly in my opinion.
Crazy, It would be a great improvement for the HSE to classify equipment into types and exclude a lot of tools. As it stands ladders and Waterfed poles are included
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Nice link soapy.
Now, once again andy, are you going to answer the question?
You said in your article that over 90% of window cleaning with waterfed pole was illegal because people don't courdon off the area to prevent the risk of falling poles.
Do you stand by this or not? Do you think we should all be courdoning off the area when we use waterfed poles?
Its a very simple question. It literally is a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
I don't recall saying that 90% was just because of that, it includes a number of points, training and 90% of windows cleaners who have come on the course prior to attending don't have training which is a need under PUWER you need to go to the front of the legislation for the definition of employer to employee also includes self employed and sole trader
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This is all getting too complicated and unnecessarily so.
I'm probably breaking the law if I use a ladder. I'm probably breaking the law if I don't cordon off 40 feet in every direction if I'm using a 40 foot pole (impossible/severely impractical on most jobs). I'm probably breaking the law if my hose isn't yellow with red fluorescent spots.
I think I'll get a job cleaning toilets and quietly slit my wrists somewhere before some gauleiter from council health and safety sticks me in a gas oven because I believed in god until my teens.
L :)
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LOL at Andrew willis.
Not that it is any of your concern, but I do have a training certificate for waterfed poles, from the BWCA when I did a course with them. But even if I hadn't you are still dodging the question.
The point you were on about in your article wasn't ablout lack of training, it was about not courdoning off the area when using poles.
In case you forget, this is what you actually said:
"So what happens if a cleaner drops a pole onto a member of the public? Regulation 10 of the Working at Height Legislation covers falling objects, and makes it clear that in order to fully comply with the law, a safety zone should be demarcated, ideally including cones, tape and barriers. There should also be clear signs indicating that work is iin progress, and that there may be a falling objects hazard. Such barriers and signs are frequently missing."
Now, to put it bluntly, its my opinion that what you've said there is a load of rubbish, for the simple reason that doing so would not be "reasonably practicable", and the work at height regs always say that they apply as long as it is reasonably practicable.
So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this? Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?
Yes or no?
(And "our training course deals with all that" is not an answer)
PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?
Load it up then Nick lol
"reasonably practicable".
I cover this in the course......what is the known calculation that a judge uses on this?
Andy
Andrew. I've always stuck up for you but if you're going to imply that most people are working illegally without giving definitive answers to reasonable questions then I believe that you shouldn't post the initial implication.
So I use an 18 foot pole in someone's front garden. The garden is small and only 8 feet to the public footpath. So I'm supposed to cordon off the 8 foot garden, likely 5 feet of footpath (1x 3 foot and 1 x 2 foot slab wide). That's 13 feet of cordoning. Therefore I have to cordon off 5 feet of road. Before I can do so I must get a permit from the local council for partial road closure, giving them four weeks notice, so that their fat, bloated, pencil pushing committee can consider my application and charge me £75.99 for doing so. I must fill in a form telling them what colour toilet paper I use and whether or not any of my cousins are gay (thanks Donovan). Additionally, I must also go into the neighbours' gardens either side and cordon those off too as they are less than 18 feet from the working area.
OK, so of course I'm not being serious.
Seriously Andrew.
You have complained about people posting negative things towards you in the past. Most of the time I've sympathised with you.
However, you have now implied that most window cleaners are working illegally. The H & S will be charging unfair rates to effectively fine or tax people. Such things can make people feel pretty damned insecure. But when you are asked more specific questions you appear to use those questions to promote your course(s).
Well, if someone posts negative things towards you concerning this, I reckon that you've invited it. And I have been one of your more reasonable posters.
Either give more definitive answers or don't try making people feel insecure in the first place (pretty please).
Hi Paul,
Look as usual posters just taking information out of content, of not having correct information or understanding, law, can understand the problem as we bucket loads and it is complicated, which takes me back to the beginning.
All posters
If you would like to choose a central location to get together I will give up a day and thoroughly address this issue
No pay
No funding
My time free
if you want to give up yours,
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Fact Mr willis makes money out of his courses
Fact Mr willis treats people on this forum like idiots
Fact Mr willis never answers a question when challenged
Fact Mr willis is protected by the mods
I rest my case
:o
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to be fair this topic has gone off topic to what it started and has turned into a slateing of andrew and impact 43, at the start of the topic it was discussed about increasing random visits to businesses by HSE officials and the handing out of fines for mis compliance it has now turned into what is acceptable practice and what isnt, in defence of Andrew he has run a cleaning business in the past and has been on the recieving end of a safety investigation so he has a very good insight into how HSE operate, on his course he shows the HSE legislation and how it may be interpreted, this is where i think the problem starts in that i and many others interprit these in a different way than Andrew or the HSE may do so arguments arise, whether any choose to do the course or not is upto them but the course is certainly a starting point to understanding what is expected of us in the workplace and how the HSE work, but getting back to the main topic is the concern of how strict these HSE visits are going to be and are they just a means of raising money i know for a fact that even after attending the impact 43 course and even if you put into practice all the areas andrew covered you would still not be compliant with the regs and could be open to a fine, Andrew may disagree with this last statement but i have come to realise me and Andrew disagree on a lot of things but i still value his opinion.
The truth is we all want to work safe and most of us would be horified if we where to cause ourselves or anybody else any major injury, Andrew is running a business but he is also running a service in helping us understand HSE regs and work safer i like many others have the opinion these regs have gone to far in some areas ie risk of falling poles and working of low flat roofs but we have to face it on many sites these regulations will be interpreted the way andrew says and firms will be made to work this way or loose the contract, i know personally on many jobs i wont follow these regs fully even though i kmow i am working safely but i also know if an accident happened i would be accountable for the actions i took by the HSE and solicitors chaseing a claim, i am also certain i could walk into any business going even Andrews and point to a mis compliance of some regulation so i guess we will just have to wait and see how many of these HSE visits happen, how strict the process is and finally what sort of fines they hand out untill then i think it is good to have discussions on these topics to try and come to an industry standard of practice that we all can follow where common sense prevails.
i better go and put my hard hat on now ready for the barage of abuse ;D ;D
Nice post Trevor,
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Ian
The course is impossible to fail, that is one thing I do agree with.
Dave, the course has changed so much from when you attended, I like to think its come on a long way. I am always keen to improve it more and with the likes of Trevor I am open to sit down and look at how we make it the best course around.
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Wow it looks like I opened a can of worms with this topic :o Apart from the slating of Andrew Willis its good that so many views come across.
I would not have put Andrews name in the title if I had thought it would turn into (as Mr Cameron said recently) a witch hunt. I asked Andrews opinion as I do think he "knows his onions"
like him or not, agree with his courses or not I don't think anyone can argue that his intentions are good and he has helped a lot of people, myself included. And why would he not wish to earn a living from that? he would be a fool not to.
Maybe the certificate I received at the end was useless (not even sure where it is) but what was not useless are the things I learned about working more safety and within the law.
If the HSE do start spot checks then perhaps a little of what I learned and have put into practice will help. if I don't implement it, then its my own fault. If I didn't bother to learn my responsibility in the first place, then I have no excuse.
I think people are to quick to judge Andrew if they have not done his course. It seems those who have done it generally speak highly of him. Surely that speaks volumes!
It will be interesting to see what happens when the first window cleaning company is chosen by the HSE and if it sets them on a path to look at others.
Who will it be? You perhaps? ;D
Thanks for the post Neil
Regards
Andy
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Wow it looks like I opened a can of worms with this topic :o Apart from the slating of Andrew Willis its good that so many views come across.
I would not have put Andrews name in the title if I had thought it would turn into (as Mr Cameron said recently) a witch hunt. I asked Andrews opinion as I do think he "knows his onions"
like him or not, agree with his courses or not I don't think anyone can argue that his intentions are good and he has helped a lot of people, myself included. And why would he not wish to earn a living from that? he would be a fool not to.
Maybe the certificate I received at the end was useless (not even sure where it is) but what was not useless are the things I learned about working more safety and within the law.
If the HSE do start spot checks then perhaps a little of what I learned and have put into practice will help. if I don't implement it, then its my own fault. If I didn't bother to learn my responsibility in the first place, then I have no excuse.
I think people are to quick to judge Andrew if they have not done his course. It seems those who have done it generally speak highly of him. Surely that speaks volumes!
It will be interesting to see what happens when the first window cleaning company is chosen by the HSE and if it sets them on a path to look at others.
Who will it be? You perhaps? ;D
Thanks for the post Neil
Regards
Andy
Quick visit to CIUp sorry off out shortly
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i just love a course in bristol >:( >:( >:( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Frank
you missed it, my son was on it.
I have to send another couple of guys on one, so theres 3
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Ian
The course is impossible to fail, that is one thing I do agree with.
Dave, the course has changed so much from when you attended, I like to think its come on a long way. I am always keen to improve it more and with the likes of Trevor I am open to sit down and look at how we make it the best course around.
A good politicians reply, you do not say that it is possible to fail the course, you leave it upto people to think that with the bold sentence, you really do think WC'ers are that bright do you ? we can see through BS
I still guess its not possible to fail it
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Hi James
I dont think that is a bad thing really, having given up 3 days of your time, you would need to be asleep to fail
I think it is impossible to fail any course
ie, IPAf, Pasma, Ladder training, basic H&S, I have never known anyone to fail anyone of those mentioned
On my Mewp course, i bottled it on the 3rd of 3 catagories, I went back the next day, focused and then passed, but did not fail.
all the help and support is there on the nvq course making it impossible to fail, I think its more of you attended and took it all in course.
In most course you only need 55% to pass, so making more or less any course impossible to fail.
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In fairness, the courses I've been on, although to do with roped access and working at height, have all been excellent and while it was impossible to fail the general working at height courses, 'passing' wasn't the purpose. The purpose of the courses was to educate and the test at the end was to help create a focal to the course.
I have to admit that for a while after going on each course I was much more aware of risk and how to manage that risk safely. I think courses are a good idea if only to stop someone seeing a risk that is constantly taken as not being a risk as in 'nothing has happened the last 30 times I walked on this sloping roof so it's safe to do so'.
Quite often it's when risk taking becomes the normal that accidents happen. Other times it's when the risk isn't realised beforehand and sometimes it's just plain stupidity and any course that helps change those mentalities to risk has to be a good thing. Those on this forum who think that H & S course are a waste of time and only state the 'bleeding obvious' are to my mind the very people who need to go on such courses.
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In fairness, the courses I've been on, although to do with roped access and working at height, have all been excellent and while it was impossible to fail the general working at height courses, 'passing' wasn't the purpose. The purpose of the courses was to educate and the test at the end was to help create a focal to the course.
I have to admit that for a while after going on each course I was much more aware of risk and how to manage that risk safely. I think courses are a good idea if only to stop someone seeing a risk that is constantly taken as not being a risk as in 'nothing has happened the last 30 times I walked on this sloping roof so it's safe to do so'.
Quite often it's when risk taking becomes the normal that accidents happen. Other times it's when the risk isn't realised beforehand and sometimes it's just plain stupidity and any course that helps change those mentalities to risk has to be a good thing. Those on this forum who think that H & S course are a waste of time and only state the 'bleeding obvious' are to my mind the very people who need to go on such courses.
best post I have read today
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Window Washers you might have missed these posts ?
Ian,
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
Have i read that you do work for Mr Willis, i guess that means you have a ' vested interest ' , so i guess we shouldnt really take much notice as you wouldnt want to bite that the hand and all that
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Why is it so strange that any one that has a vested interest would post in accordance with that interest?
Isn't that the way it all works, I mean, we're window cleaners so we have a vested interest in people having their windows cleaned. Maybe then, as vested interest is so bad, we should be telling people not to have their windows cleaned?
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I've just bought some new warning signs that warn of the danger of tripping over cones left on the pavement.
I actually think warning cones are a risk to the public and should be perceived as such on any risk assessment. Trailing hose scores 2 - very small risk whilst cones score 5 - medium to high risk of tripping.. I was going to use hazard tape to cordon off areas but there is a high risk of strangulation to old people and babies.
Soon all window cleaning will be carried out at night whilst everyone is safely strapped in bed with air bags for pillows.
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I've just bought some new warning signs that warn of the danger of tripping over cones left on the pavement.
I actually think warning cones are a risk to the public and should be perceived as such on any risk assessment. Trailing hose scores 2 - very small risk whilst cones score 5 - medium to high risk of tripping.. I was going to use hazard tape to cordon off areas but there is a high risk of strangulation to old people and babies.
Soon all window cleaning will be carried out at night whilst everyone is safely strapped in bed with air bags for pillows.
It's tongue in cheek comments like that Mark Etting that leave all of us opinionated window cleaners to be classsed as uneducated idiots. ;D
Although I would bet my sunday roast that a lot of the posters who were challenging the opinion that we are working illegally, because we don't have a certificate to say we know how to use a water fed pole actually do have Health & Safety Training and knowledge gained in other industries.
I skipped through my copy of the PUWER 1998 regulations I have and still could not see where it said I would be working illegally as a sole trader if I was not trained in the use of a water fed pole.
However the regulations are worded in such a way that if the need should ever arise they can be interpreted in a broader sense to cover all the bases it would seem.
What's more important a window cleaner who has a certificate gathering dust in the loft but lacks the perception to think for himself? Or an individual who takes his common sense with him to work everyday?
ps. A High-Viz vest was worn while typing this message.
Excuse me while I go and write a risk assessment for the task of preparing breakfast. Bowls and spoons can be potential killers........... ;D
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Window Washers you might have missed these posts ?
Ian,
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
Have i read that you do work for Mr Willis, i guess that means you have a ' vested interest ' , so i guess we shouldnt really take much notice as you wouldnt want to bite that the hand and all that p
James my vested interest is helping people I have done that online for years and now I do it face to face with people aswell
My guys are trained by me to work safely, i also put them through the course as i think it is a very good thing that being done, I could say one thing and it would not be believed by some of you so im not going to discuss my business with you or a guy that is hiding behind a false name. what you will find is that i am honest i dont hide behind a name and i am willing to meet anyone off here. i really cant see why that you and the other couple of people are making safety of people a joke which it is not
What are you getting from doing this James honestly ?
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hi ian in defence of james he asked the question do your staff courdon off the work area to same height of the pole i can honestly say i do not and whats more i have no intention of starting , on the odd occasion due to using a large pole with pedestrian traffic present i might now consider this option if it is possible to implement without causing risks that out measure the one it is meant to prevent, or as in past may just have a banksman to keep watch for risks
on the course Andrew puts a picture up of a scene and when i pointed out the coned off area caused a larger risk in that pedestrians now had to walk onto public highway instead of the pavement he sugested then maybe useing a cherrypicker is the answer, my thoughts on this matter is not only are costs significantly increase but so are the risks, traffic would need stopping to load and unload cherrypicker, these machines weigh many tons and could easily damage paving causing a trip hazzard and whats more the first rule of work at height regs is can you avoid the need to work at height in the first place.
From the above scene whatever method is chosen if an accident was to occur then the HSE or a solicitor could go through all the legislation and prosecute on one or more issues depending on how they decide to interpret the regs, they could bring forth expert HSE officials who see things the way they see them and all i would be able to supply would be a couple of basic certificates and that i thought i was using common sense.
I dont know james or many of the others posters on this topic but i do know the frustration we all share when it comes to what we can and cant do and this can often come across as just being argumentative
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So Ian by getting all defensive your staff obviously don't cordon off the areas they work in do they? Your name by the way isn't Mr Window Washers is it? My name isn't Mark Etting either. I'm not hiding anywhwere If it makes you feel good I'll give you my name. My forum name was changed when the powers that be insisted we use our real names. (I hate being told what to do) I've been ftp and Dave W and my email is probably in my profile.
Back to the point - you work for this shower and I'll bet a weeks wages your staff don't adhere religiously to their rules.
Incidentally the only guy with an once of sense seems to be Trever Perry - give him your job I say or even better give him the job of training people in health and safety. ;)
As an afterthought you must remember your whiter than white stance of being here to help people is bollocs I've been on here long enough to know it's for financial reward, someone like Matt used to help people years ago for Nothing!
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Window Washers you might have missed these posts ?
Ian,
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
Have i read that you do work for Mr Willis, i guess that means you have a ' vested interest ' , so i guess we shouldnt really take much notice as you wouldnt want to bite that the hand and all that p
James my vested interest is helping people I have done that online for years and now I do it face to face with people aswell
My guys are trained by me to work safely, i also put them through the course as i think it is a very good thing that being done, I could say one thing and it would not be believed by some of you so im not going to discuss my business with you or a guy that is hiding behind a false name. what you will find is that i am honest i dont hide behind a name and i am willing to meet anyone off here. i really cant see why that you and the other couple of people are making safety of people a joke which it is not
What are you getting from doing this James honestly ?
Yet another Non-answer, Do you do work for Mr Willis ? i guess by your lack of answer, it is a YES
You also forgot to answer the question from Mark, do you put into practice what you / mr Willis seem to preach ? do you cordon off the area around you that equates to the length of your pole ?, my guess, NO
I wonder why you do not want to discuss it ?
Safety is never a joke, but we need to have common sense in it all, if we let you and mr Willis tell us what we need to do we would be a laughing stock and never able to earn a living, sometimes it needs people to stand up and speak out
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Window Washers you might have missed these posts ?
Ian,
Do your staff cordon off an area to match the height of the poles they use? Of course they don't!
You can twist this as many times as you like qualified more or not as qualified, the question I would ask is have you don't anything to at least learn or are you another troll? James I have just had a look in your back posts wow quite shocking mr
Have i read that you do work for Mr Willis, i guess that means you have a ' vested interest ' , so i guess we shouldnt really take much notice as you wouldnt want to bite that the hand and all that p
James my vested interest is helping people I have done that online for years and now I do it face to face with people aswell
My guys are trained by me to work safely, i also put them through the course as i think it is a very good thing that being done, I could say one thing and it would not be believed by some of you so im not going to discuss my business with you or a guy that is hiding behind a false name. what you will find is that i am honest i dont hide behind a name and i am willing to meet anyone off here. i really cant see why that you and the other couple of people are making safety of people a joke which it is not
What are you getting from doing this James honestly ?
Yet another Non-answer, Do you do work for Mr Willis ? i guess by your lack of answer, it is a YES
You also forgot to answer the question from Mark, do you put into practice what you / mr Willis seem to preach ? do you cordon off the area around you that equates to the length of your pole ?, my guess, NO
I wonder why you do not want to discuss it ?
Safety is never a joke, but we need to have common sense in it all, if we let you and mr Willis tell us what we need to do we would be a laughing stock and never able to earn a living, sometimes it needs people to stand up and speak out
All posters
If you would like to choose a central location to get together I will give up a day and thoroughly address this issue
No pay
No funding
My time free
if you want to give up yours,
See there was no uptake on this, that would take effort
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Why not write about it on here? We don't lose a days wages or waste fuel, you don't lose anything either. ???
Trevor Perry can write sensible understandable posts - can't you Andrew?
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Why not write about it on here? We don't lose a days wages or waste fuel, you don't lose anything either. ???
Trevor Perry can write sensible understandable posts - can't you Andrew?
Mark take it from me Andrew has a vast amount of knowledge of the industry, i disagree with some of his interpretations but there is a saying dont throw the baby out with the bath water why not take andrew up on his offer, it is pointless if these discussions become slagging matches as then no one gains any benefit.
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I will buy the first drink for everyone attending, beer or coffee and no I don't have a vested interested
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Why not write about it on here? We don't lose a days wages or waste fuel, you don't lose anything either. ???
Trevor Perry can write sensible understandable posts - can't you Andrew?
Mark take it from me Andrew has a vast amount of knowledge of the industry, i disagree with some of his interpretations but there is a saying dont throw the baby out with the bath water why not take andrew up on his offer, it is pointless if these discussions become slagging matches as then no one gains any benefit.
totally agree Trevor, Mark Etting a little effort required from you that's all
You know full well if this was written on here it would be scimmed over and missed by many that read it, that's why it is done in a training environment
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I will buy the first drink for everyone attending, beer or coffee and no I don't have a vested interested
nice think we should hold it in cambs, Dave I will come too if your buying :)
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Cornwall sounds better to me
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lets face it health and safety does have a funny side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAnGYfnFz9I
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H&S is a legal minefield. A lot of stuff brought in comes in with the power of insurance companies lobbying government wanting changes. some of them are good for industry whilst others are basically to cover them making payouts. If you don't follow to the letter then ye can be screwed over.
belts n braces approach
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Andrew that bit in red; would you point me to where PUWER 98 says I need a training certificate for using a wfp please?
I understand that I and any employee should know how to use it properly and safely but I do not see the requirement for a certificate.
(Sigh)
So I'll ask again - where does PUWER 98 say you must have a certificate Andrew?
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saw today a scafold rail around a flat roof less than 15 feet from the ground so that an ajoining small wall could be coated ,guyes were a long way from the edge .made me wonder what safety measures we should use when working from a flat roof ???
According to HSE guidelines a securely attached lanyard, but according to my wife there is always "reasonable and practicable" exception and cleaning one window above a flat roof on someone elses property would be one of those. No doubt some will argue, but when you look at likelihood and impact, you would have to be pretty odd to see the necessity for a lanyard tethered to your customer's property.
have you ever fallen off gold ? you obviously ( maybe not) know that there is high probability for serious injury or death falling from a roof did you know this ?
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saw today a scafold rail around a flat roof less than 15 feet from the ground so that an ajoining small wall could be coated ,guyes were a long way from the edge .made me wonder what safety measures we should use when working from a flat roof ???
According to HSE guidelines a securely attached lanyard, but according to my wife there is always "reasonable and practicable" exception and cleaning one window above a flat roof on someone elses property would be one of those. No doubt some will argue, but when you look at likelihood and impact, you would have to be pretty odd to see the necessity for a lanyard tethered to your customer's property.
have you ever fallen off gold ? you obviously ( maybe not) know that there is high probability for serious injury or death falling from a roof did you know this ?
Gold would have to be a moron not to realise that there is a risk of serious injury or death is someone falls off a roof. Even a ground floor extension flat roof. What is your point.
Also, how many of those people that attended these government funded courses would actually go if they had to pay the going rate for them which I guess might be around £200-£300 a day? Very few I suspect.
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I don't see it is reasonable to clean window that is risking your life because that neither reasonable or practical
The answer to your question people that are serious about there business how many of you that is I honestly do not know the answer it cost my company to do these courses so I guess I am one of them that would pay I have paid a lot more for marketing courses over the years that run into thousands
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I had to put my guys on a manual handling course
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saw today a scafold rail around a flat roof less than 15 feet from the ground so that an ajoining small wall could be coated ,guyes were a long way from the edge .made me wonder what safety measures we should use when working from a flat roof ???
According to HSE guidelines a securely attached lanyard, but according to my wife there is always "reasonable and practicable" exception and cleaning one window above a flat roof on someone elses property would be one of those. No doubt some will argue, but when you look at likelihood and impact, you would have to be pretty odd to see the necessity for a lanyard tethered to your customer's property.
have you ever fallen off gold ? you obviously ( maybe not) know that there is high probability for serious injury or death falling from a roof did you know this ?
Ian, I would quit, you are positively starting to embarrass yourself & insult others along with it! >:(
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I've realised now why I don't come on here anymore, are you all thick?
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I've realised now why I don't come on here anymore, are you all thick?
Raises hand ... ;D
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saw today a scafold rail around a flat roof less than 15 feet from the ground so that an ajoining small wall could be coated ,guyes were a long way from the edge .made me wonder what safety measures we should use when working from a flat roof ???
According to HSE guidelines a securely attached lanyard, but according to my wife there is always "reasonable and practicable" exception and cleaning one window above a flat roof on someone elses property would be one of those. No doubt some will argue, but when you look at likelihood and impact, you would have to be pretty odd to see the necessity for a lanyard tethered to your customer's property.
have you ever fallen off gold ? you obviously ( maybe not) know that there is high probability for serious injury or death falling from a roof did you know this ?
Ian, I would quit, you are positively starting to embarrass yourself & insult others along with it! >:(
your welcome to your opinion winpro I am not meaning to insulting anyone if I have please point this out and I will apoligise to the person if they were offended.
I asked gold a question nothing more or less
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you talk sense gold, ffs get a grip the rest of you
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you offend me Ian, just keep your trap shut
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you offend me Ian, just keep your trap shut
not sure how but sorry not meaning to offend anyone Chris
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WW
In answer to your questions:-
No.
Yes.
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As a slight aside, just recently taken on a fella who has cleaned windows off a ladder for 20+ years. We are 95% WFP. I'd be mad to employ and not put said individual through a ladder safety and awareness course surely?. Not for his benefit but mine. I'd be interested to hear any doubters opinions.
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WW
In answer to your questions:-
No.
Yes.
thanks gold and hopefully you saw what I put as a question rather than an insult as this is how it was meant. ;) I'm just not great a writing
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As a slight aside, just recently taken on a fella who has cleaned windows off a ladder for 20+ years. We are 95% WFP. I'd be mad to employ and not put said individual through a ladder safety and awareness course surely?. Not for his benefit but mine. I'd be interested to hear any doubters opinions.
I would agree it's a duty as an employer to make training available to an employee.
Although there is no regulation that I have seen that says it has to be an NVQ related training scheme that provides it.
But clarity is needed on sole traders who are being told by Mr Willis that we are working illegally if we have not received the training.
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The legality is not my prime concern as such. More that as an employer my own back is covered should an accident occur.
If you supply equipment of an appropriate standard, make suitable health and safety awareness courses available, have employee and P/L insurance then you've done all you can as an employer and haven't left yourself open to some sort of dispute be that legal or not.
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The legality is not my prime concern as such. More that as an employer my own back is covered should an accident occur.
If you supply equipment of an appropriate standard, make suitable health and safety awareness courses available, have employee and P/L insurance then you've done all you can as an employer and haven't left yourself open to some sort of dispute be that legal or not.
they need to be trained in use Rise and Shine and you need to document that training or it is there word against your should an accident happen and will all know they side with the employee
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Why not write about it on here? We don't lose a days wages or waste fuel, you don't lose anything either. ???
Trevor Perry can write sensible understandable posts - can't you Andrew?
Mark take it from me Andrew has a vast amount of knowledge of the industry, i disagree with some of his interpretations but there is a saying dont throw the baby out with the bath water why not take andrew up on his offer, it is pointless if these discussions become slagging matches as then no one gains any benefit.
Very true, but if Andrew would like to write a proper article explaining the health and safety side side of the argument then maybe the mods can make it a sticky so that a slanging match doesn't ensue. It's no use making bold statements like "ladders are banned, working from a flat roof is illegal, you are breaking the law if you don't cordon off the pole area" or similar phrases to this then tell anyone who doesn't understand to come on one of his courses.
Some of us live miles away, some just don't have the time or money or motivation to get on a course.
It's so simple to communicate on the internet, costs nothing and could save arguments and even lives.
But then he wouldn't make any money would he?
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The legality is not my prime concern as such. More that as an employer my own back is covered should an accident occur.
If you supply equipment of an appropriate standard, make suitable health and safety awareness courses available, have employee and P/L insurance then you've done all you can as an employer and haven't left yourself open to some sort of dispute be that legal or not.
they need to be trained in use
Isn't that what a ladder training awareness course is all about?
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The legality is not my prime concern as such. More that as an employer my own back is covered should an accident occur.
If you supply equipment of an appropriate standard, make suitable health and safety awareness courses available, have employee and P/L insurance then you've done all you can as an employer and haven't left yourself open to some sort of dispute be that legal or not.
they need to be trained in use
Isn't that what a ladder training awareness course is all about?
if they only use ladders yes
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My concerns are the health and safety of employees particularly whilst using ladders. It is this that concerns me as it is through this method of working that as employers we are most open to civil or legal dispute should an accident occur.
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As a slight aside, just recently taken on a fella who has cleaned windows off a ladder for 20+ years. We are 95% WFP. I'd be mad to employ and not put said individual through a ladder safety and awareness course surely?. Not for his benefit but mine. I'd be interested to hear any doubters opinions.
That seems sensible, but personally I wouldn't employ a ladders only window cleaner to clean off ladders, but I see the logic if there will be occasional ladder use. To access flat roofs for example. ;D
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I'm employing an ex trad cleaner to clean WFP. However there are always times when a ladder is required. It is these times that I'm concerned about however infrequent.
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Please keep personal insults out of it, we all have personal views, no need to insult anyone
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I'm employing an ex trad cleaner to clean WFP. However there are always times when a ladder is required. It is these times that I'm concerned about however infrequent.
Hope all went well in Oxford today assuming that was your van I saw earlier with Steve's.
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Please keep personal insults out of it, we all have personal views, no need to insult anyone
Me ???
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Mark I never mentioned anyone
I am not naming names, but some of the posts are becoming a bit personal
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If it was me I apologise I don't mean for anything to be personal.
I only want clarification on some confusing statements and am pointing out the irony (might be on the other thread) of a windowcleaner hand in hand with the trainers who probably doesn't abide by Impacts "Laws"either.
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I'm employing an ex trad cleaner to clean WFP. However there are always times when a ladder is required. It is these times that I'm concerned about however infrequent.
Hope all went well in Oxford today assuming that was your van I saw earlier with Steve's.
Steve?
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I'm employing an ex trad cleaner to clean WFP. However there are always times when a ladder is required. It is these times that I'm concerned about however infrequent.
Hope all went well in Oxford today assuming that was your van I saw earlier with Steve's.
Steve?
Yeah. We were heading across town to pick up daughter then down to Gosport for the half marathon. Past Steve's is a ratrun.
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Steve who?
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The legality is not my prime concern as such. More that as an employer my own back is covered should an accident occur.
If you supply equipment of an appropriate standard, make suitable health and safety awareness courses available, have employee and P/L insurance then you've done all you can as an employer and haven't left yourself open to some sort of dispute be that legal or not.
they need to be trained in use
Isn't that what a ladder training awareness course is all about?
if they only use ladders yes
not sure I agree, when I had a lad under 18 he was 99% wfp I employed via the council youth training scheme and I had to run everything by their H&S rep, he authorised and organised a safe ladder use course for the odd occasion we used ladders, also got him NVQ qualified all funded by the council
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I'm employing an ex trad cleaner to clean WFP. However there are always times when a ladder is required. It is these times that I'm concerned about however infrequent.
Hope all went well in Oxford today assuming that was your van I saw earlier with Steve's.
Steve?
Obviously mistaken identity. Apologies.
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central location then half way between cambridge and cornwall has to be bristol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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central location then half way between cambridge and cornwall has to be bristol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
nah FALKIRK ;D ;D
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central location then half way between cambridge and cornwall has to be bristol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Naa, Dorset is ;D
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central location then half way between cambridge and cornwall has to be bristol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
lol I was thinking half way between Scotland and Cornwall in cambs I am only thinking of you guys :)
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If Daves buying a drink i am not bothered where it is i will have to be there and see it to believe it, i am just taking bets on how big the moth will be that comes out his wallet ;D ;D
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I reckon this ones yours Trev
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2221793/Giant-Atlas-Moth-Massive-foot-wide-Malaysian-moth-Lancashire-garden.html
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I reckon this ones yours Trev
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2221793/Giant-Atlas-Moth-Massive-foot-wide-Malaysian-moth-Lancashire-garden.html
:o :o ;D ;D
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Why not write about it on here? We don't lose a days wages or waste fuel, you don't lose anything either. ???
Trevor Perry can write sensible understandable posts - can't you Andrew?
Mark take it from me Andrew has a vast amount of knowledge of the industry, i disagree with some of his interpretations but there is a saying dont throw the baby out with the bath water why not take andrew up on his offer, it is pointless if these discussions become slagging matches as then no one gains any benefit.
Very true, but if Andrew would like to write a proper article explaining the health and safety side side of the argument then maybe the mods can make it a sticky so that a slanging match doesn't ensue.
But then he wouldn't make any money would he?
I think we are now being told its not about the money, it is about saving our lives ;)
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We run a business, and stopped using ladders because apart from falling off and breaking various limbs, wfp is much easier. I respect Andrew willis for setting up, and training people to work more safely ( and getting free funding which I am sure was a hard task )
From what I have read so far on here, certain points need to be clarified . . . . so I will put myself forward to go on the course, and report back for an unbiased opinion.
I must admit to failing at school, and picking up things very slowly. . . . so you will have to be patient with me.
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For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.
It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering. I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.
If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.
Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items
Andrew that bit in red; would you point me to where PUWER 98 says I need a training certificate for using a wfp please?
I understand that I and any employee should know how to use it properly and safely but I do not see the requirement for a certificate.
(Sigh)
So I'll ask again - where does PUWER 98 say you must have a certificate Andrew?
Gold
I could go to university and spend 5 years studying engineering, but if I don't sit the exam and get a certificate, those 5 years are worthless. Without it I can't prove to anyone that I'm qualified.
If you or anyone else causes an accident, how do you prove to anyone that your are able to clean windows safely with a pole. Its your word against theirs. You can drive a car/van because you were taught and you past your drivers licence. Your driver's licence is your proof of your competency to drive that vehicle, or that you were competent at that time. Its the same as your car's MOT. It can be totally roadworthy, but your can't drive anywhere until it has past an MOT inspection and issued with a certiciate.
The only way for you to prove that you are competent to use WFP is to have a recognised, competent person teach you and access your on the job skills and then issue you a certificate to acknowledge your competency. So sometimes its not whats written, its what isn't written.
You now have an employee. You have taught him how to clean windows, and from what I know of your from on here, you will have done a good job. The regulations now make it important for an operator to be trained on the equipment he will be using, and many large companies have inhouse training facilities.
Andrew doesn't train people himself on how to use a WFP pole for example. He employees another competent business to do this, who will have been certificated to perform this task. Can you prove that you have trained your able assistant to clean windows safely - a competent equipment user.
When we were on the training course, a large portion of one morning was devoted to cordoning off a town centre pavement area to safe guard the pedestrians (including school children on their way to school) who were walking around the area. In this particular actual job, they eventually opted to use a mechanical lift/platform as the building owners were unhappy with the potential risk of a falling pole. I would have had no issue using a pole, but they wouldn't take on the risk, seeing as they already had had an issue with H&S previously over another issue (not window cleaning related) and didn't want a repeat of it.
As far as I am concerned, I would recommend you and your able right hand man attend that training course. Its hard work but well worth it.