[Gleaming windows]

Stop the ladder from slipping 

[mark dew]

I'm 54 years old (well, will be on the 18th of this month  )

happy birthday to you...... 

[Clive McDonald]

So who's won the argument in this thread?

The people who think the H&S guys are all theory or out of touch, or the window cleaners who claim to have both experience and common sense?

If the topic is ladders and flat roofs i'm surprised that a wc forum can't come up with more sensible comments other than who has been doing it longer.

From the little bit of laddering i've done getting on and off roofs does seem the most dangerous part. I have a safey device called a ladder limpet, but can't understand why safety devices aren't better promoted or designed.You would have thought that the H&S people could have come up with their own device, after all they've had about 40yrs to think about it, and unlimited funds.

How many more people have to fall before these herberts get their act together?

[WILLIS]

Please all see new post under ......Work at height: Confronting competency

Also following link to HSE website
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/wait/findoutmore.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf

[williamx]

We are all responsible for Heath and Safety and most of the Health and Safety laws and guildlines have come about by our own stupid actions in the workplace.

How many of you professionals, have done that "1 job" which was a bit hairy, I would bet that every single one of you has, yet you now moan when some "office boy" points out the obvious, and draws up rules and regulations to try and stop you.

You now shout about freedom to work, yet all he is trying to do, is reduce the death and accident rate linked to your job.

What is an accident?

1.  chance: the way things happen without any planning, apparent cause, or deliberate intent 
2.  crash: a collision or similar incident involving a moving vehicle, often resulting in injury or death 
3.  chance happening: an event that happens completely by chance, with no planning or deliberate intent 
4.  mishap: an unplanned and unfortunate event that results in damage, injury, or upset of some kind 
5.  failure to reach toilet: an incident when somebody, particularly a small child, is incontinent (used euphemistically) 
6.  unplanned pregnancy: a child conceived in an unplanned way
7.  philosophy nonessential attribute: a nonessential attribute or characteristic of something 

all of the above examples of different "accidents", all are preventable, if the right actions are taken before they happen.

The cemeteries are full with experenced window cleaners, who families, now wish they had used a more safer method in cleaning that last job.

[Jeff Brimble]

Too easy, the regs have to cover electricians, painters etc and cowboys 

[williamx]

I know what you mean Jeff but that’s what so frustrating about the HSE, even if they had to list all the trades that use ladders daily or weekly, I would expect they could get that part done in a month or two! Then they could go into specifics about each trade, with a generalisation about ladder use.

How difficult would it be for them to contact ladder manufactures and introduce ladder usage with safety devices attached top and bottom to be used when ever a ladder is used?

Even the general public would soon be informed when they buy a ladder from B&Q.

I agree it would be very easy for the HSE to rule on Ladder use for 99% of window cleaners, I feel that a lot of window cleaners would not like the outcome though.

It should really be up to the Trade Bodies who say they have the welfare of window cleaners at heart, but they do not seem to be doing nothing.

I know that they are in talks with the HSE, but what are they asking for.

I feel that they should be asking the HSE for CLARITY.

If ladders are to be restricted then so be it.

They could then look at funding for those who have to come off ladders and purchase alternative equipment (like wfp) to carry on trading

[Ian_Giles]

that's the problem with such a huge raft of regulations (that are continually being added to and tweaked)...CLARITY!
For us plebs it sounds an easy thing to just say; "If it is reasonable and practical to do a job any other way other than off a ladder then that method should be used."
You can kind of start off like that, but then you have to start adding in no end of qualifying caveats; Can an aerial fitter qualify as an exception for instance?
What about roofers doing repairs? At what point would "reasonable and practical apply where using scaffold or lifts and so on, and what about the relevant training and a further raft of H&S regs concerning the use of such equipment?
I've only sat here and tapped out a couple of hurried, poorly thought out ideas, but you get the drift, even a quick scratch of the surface by a pleb (ME  ) Starts to show how complex it can become to express clarity.

Were you to just implement my own suggestion across the board you would wipe out tens of thousands of window cleaners and god knows how many other varied tradesmen and women.

It's all so depressing! 

Did you know that if you are an employer and you are in a trade that uses...for instance, disc cutters, your employees are not allowed to change the blades unless they have been on a course and have the necessary certificates?
Lunacy!
It's only a case of unscrewing a single bolt!
Yet of course if an employee makes a mistake and the nice new, shiny tungsten blade should shoot off and chop the head of little child walking past, then you want to be sure it's someone else and not you that gets done for it don't you !
 


Ian
Like I said....It's all so depressing

[gewindows]

I went on a course once its title was

'How to go on a Course'

[ftp]

Spot on Ian. We need someone who can speak to us at our level, someone who can translate the crap and put it in plain English. A few lines of common sense, some answers that anyone can understand. Someone to explain the laws of working at height. We need to know exactly what we can and can't do. It's such a grey area that nobody seems to fully understand including those who are supposed to teach it.

[dai]

Spot on Ian. We need someone who can speak to us at our level, someone who can translate the crap and put it in plain English. A few lines of common sense, some answers that anyone can understand. Someone to explain the laws of working at height. We need to know exactly what we can and can't do. It's such a grey area that nobody seems to fully understand including those who are supposed to teach it.

Reasonably practicable creates a lot of confusion. You only have to browse this forum for 5 mins before you realise that reasonable for one person can be totally irrational for someone else.
It's as if they are using the lack of clarity to catch us out.
Better hope that our reasonable is in sync with a health and safety inspector's definition of the word.

[ftp]

I have a flat roof that I have to acess with a ladder to enable me to climb around the back and reach a dormer window from an extended kitchen roof. I use stabilisers and make sure my ladder is extended above the roofline.
There is virtually no risk from the ladder, the risk comes from the fact that the coping stones are loose on the parapet wall on the garage roof    if I grab one of those i'll be in for some brain damage.

[geefree]

Its a good subect and interesting to read the  views, and legislations,

But, i hit a flat roof ... well ..never!

There are times when i quote.. if i can reach above a flat roof with a pole..all well and good...

otherwise i dont climb on them...and price them accordingly



i aint falling and breaking bones for a few quid.... and weeks off work...or worse!

If i near worked on them for a living....like , pointing... sky dishes... asphalting etc... then i would look into it more,

Thats just me tho...i know some guys jump all over them

[paul rulton]

I went on a course once its title was

'How to go on a Course'

PMSL ur not helping much Matt  funny tho 

[tomy jackson]

the amount of windys who fallis not funy

[daztheger]

i cant believe the amount of posts to this question. if u think its safe go for it , if u dont think its safe , dont do it . EASY

[David Hinton]

I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.

One of the most useful tips I had was to drill a hole in the wall in line with where the ladder will be (ideally 1M up, not always possible.

Then you put an rawl plug & eye bolt into the wall.

After this, whenever you use the ladder in this location you feed a ratchet strap through a ladder rung, then throught the eye bolt, and back onto itself.

When you ratchet it up tight the ladder cannot slide sideways, or back - really steady.

OK - we had to use harnesses etc, but being sensible I would feel very safe getting on & off the ladder.

I now charge a £5 on-off fee for fitting the eyebolt, and an extra £1 per clean for the hassle.

CSS worksafe were the people that certificated my ladder use - and they run specific window cleaner access training courses.

[actualcleaning]

I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.

One of the most useful tips I had was to drill a hole in the wall in line with where the ladder will be (ideally 1M up, not always possible.

Then you put an rawl plug & eye bolt into the wall.

After this, whenever you use the ladder in this location you feed a ratchet strap through a ladder rung, then throught the eye bolt, and back onto itself.

When you ratchet it up tight the ladder cannot slide sideways, or back - really steady.

OK - we had to use harnesses etc, but being sensible I would feel very safe getting on & off the ladder.

I now charge a £5 on-off fee for fitting the eyebolt, and an extra £1 per clean for the hassle.

CSS worksafe were the people that certificated my ladder use - and they run specific window cleaner access training courses.

Well i am sorry but if a wc came to me and said to clean your windows i will have to put a bolt in your wall and charge you for doing it...i think i might tell him not to worry (maybe not as polite as that though).
Imagine going round to 400 + customers and fixing eyebolts..... :

[David Hinton]

Actually the eyebolts are very unobtrusive, and in line with some of the earlier comments on this thread about not even bothering to clean on a flat roof - I would like to offer my customers an alternative.

Still - everyone is entitled to their opinion, be it judgemental & blinkered or otherwise

[ps outthere]

I have used wall plugs and vine eyes. I tie the ladders to the vine eye and it works.

I tell custies it will be safe for anybody else who needs to get on the roof, no one told me to take a hike yet .