[Steve CM]

Rubbish, absolute dross. Ian may have had a better way of putting it, more eloquently, but what you are saying about me is rubbish. You just have an agenda and and its now become apparent for all to see.

All I was saying was the regulations were obscene basically and I did NOT make any seriously derogatory remarks about Willis, point them out if I did.

You knew his qualifications before he voiced them did you?

I think this forum needs more professional input.

We're right behind you. off you go then 

Anyway, thats me so far as you are concerned, its tittle tattle otherwise, good luck in your crusade, I shall observe with eager anticipation.

don't give yourself an ulcer matt....have a good day!

i don't have any motive other than trying to keep good professional input on this forum

I'm sick of reading playground antics

[D woods]

Hi Guys

For what its worth we have used  the services of Andy Willis for a number of years, on Thursday this week he did a traing course for 20 of our window cleaners.

He knows what he is talking about and in my opinion offers good value for money.

[gary mallett]

yep

[Ian_Giles]

Well Ian Lancaster gets my nomination for post of the year so far....

Completely and totally agree with what he said in that first post...

H & S issues are a constant, teeth grinding area of frustration for people at the business end of having to deal with them, ie, window cleaners, scaffolders, painters, roofers and any other trade where ladders are used, and not forgetting any other business where H & S can poke their snouts into...which...er...is just about any and every aspect of modern day life 

I'm 54 years old (well, will be on the 18th of this month  ) and I've spent my entire working life, first as a painter and decorator and the last 27 years as a window cleaner working off ladders.

The last 6 or 7 of those years I've been WFP.

It isn't until you STOP working constantly off ladders that you truly begin to realise how dangerous they are.
Like many others on here, I can look back now and shudder in horror at the stupid risks I took, and also the risks that some of the guys who worked for me took.
I'm not talking about taking constant risks, just those odd moments on individual jobs where you think, "What the heck, I can do this."
Or I'll warrant that no end of those working off ladders now will stand on their tippy-toes on the highest rung (regardless of height) pinch a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger and just stttrrreeetch that little bit more to get at that one single pane of glass rather than clamber down the ladder to move it a couple of feet and then climb back up the ladder to spend a few seconds cleaning that pane of glass.

Or those out there that will prop their ladder against that nice slippery upvc guttering running along that flat roof and step off it without a moments thought as to just how dangerous that really is.

How many of you have stood at the top of your ladder on one foot with the other one pointing out at 45 degrees for counter balance while obviously over reaching?

We can all understand the need for regulation and the importance of risk reduction, unfortunately once you start down that path, or rather once an authority is set up to deal with those issues and the first regulations are put in place...all very common sense and practical no doubt, with every fresh look they will continue to find more and yet more little steps that can be taken to further reduce the risks and dangers in our everyday lives.

An example; A year or two ago our local carnival organisers wanted - as they had done for many years previously - to hang a large banner advertising the Carnival in the spot they had always used, but once some spotty faced prat of an insurance assessor had...er, assessed it, they wanted some extraordinarily large sum to cover it as part of the overall insurance. (something like and extra £1,000.00 for just a few days)
Once the organisers had recovered sufficiently from the shock and asked them why they were going to be surcharged such an ungodly amount they were told there was a risk that one of the ropes securing said banner could come loose and could wrap around the neck of a small child and thereby choke them to death 

A completely and utterly ridiculous conclusion, it may well have been theoretically possible but the actual probability of such an event happening must be many thousands to one.
Needless to say the banner did not get hung that year....and thanks of course to a jerk with a clipboard without an ounce of common or practical sense, no ickle child was hanged by the neck until dead...

Unfortunately a great many window cleaners will continue to be hurt as a result falls from ladders (as Dave knows, even a fall from the first rung of a ladder, 9 inches of the ground can result in a broken shoulder) and people will continue to die.
H & S will of course continue to cite such cases (whilst forgetting to mention the hundreds of thousands of tradesmen and women who DO NOT get injured or killed) in their remorseless drive to protect us from ourselves, not helped of course from idiots (or those without the training Ian Lancaster mentions) taking stupid or unnecessary risks.
This all gets compounded by desk bound morons (as in the example I mentioned above) without any real, practical experience helping to form yet more over the top edicts, further driven by insurance companies desperate to wriggle out of any claims, justified or not by any means possible....

Here's a thought; If cricket had just been invented, what would the chances of it ever being allowed to be played at school? H & S would never allow it would they...

We're all going to hell in a hand basket  But only if H & S don't get involved...dangerous things hand baskets, they'd have to be assessed and regulated first! 


Ian

[gewindows]

 

[dai]

Or I'll warrant that no end of those working off ladders now will stand on their tippy-toes on the highest rung (regardless of height) pinch a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger and just stttrrreeetch that little bit more to get at that one single pane of glass rather than clamber down the ladder to move it a couple of feet and then climb back up the ladder to spend a few seconds cleaning that pane of glass.


Yes Ian, guilty as charged, done all them.
Years of ladder use brings expertise, show me a tight rope walker that spends as much time as a window cleaner practicing his art, a hundred risk assessments every working day.
Self preservation is a powerful instinct, and is more important to me than any regulations.
Most accidents are caused by unfamiliarity, complacency, and the unforeseen.
The first can be eliminated with the correct training, the second is down to the individual, and is probably why we need to have regulations, and the third is one of the main reasons I went WFP.

[Ian Lancaster]

Andy:

Thank you for your response.  I accept that you are an experienced and qualified tradesman to the point where you have earned your right to instruct and advise on matters of safety with particluar relevence to our industry.

I sincerely hope my comments have not offended you, as you may have gathered I am passionate about misrepresentations about the safety of window cleaning as well as the misguided and unsuitable regulations dreamed up by 'experts' who will never understand why their spoutings will not be acceptable to so many of us.

I look forward to Windex, I suspect that you and I will still have differences of opinion but I would welcome the chance of a face to face discussion.

In everything I've said the point I was trying to make is that there are valid opinions on both sides of the argument and that no one party should presume to be the incontrovertible authority.

Ian Giles:

Thank you for the vote of confidence

[WILLIS]

Andy:

Thank you for your response.  I accept that you are an experienced and qualified tradesman to the point where you have earned your right to instruct and advise on matters of safety with particluar relevence to our industry.

I sincerely hope my comments have not offended you, as you may have gathered I am passionate about misrepresentations about the safety of window cleaning as well as the misguided and unsuitable regulations dreamed up by 'experts' who will never understand why their spoutings will not be acceptable to so many of us.

I look forward to Windex, I suspect that you and I will still have differences of opinion but I would welcome the chance of a face to face discussion.

In everything I've said the point I was trying to make is that there are valid opinions on both sides of the argument and that no one party should presume to be the incontrovertible authority.

Ian Giles:

Thank you for the vote of confidence

Hi Ian

Since the post I am planning to build the working from flat roofs into my working at height slot at the seminar.

I will also raise this at the next FWC meeting
 
Ian thanks for the post, look forward to meeting you  Andy

[trevor perry]

andy
  thanks for the offer i will definately attend the working at height seminar and would like to thank you for including a working from flat roof section as this is a major issue on one large commercial job we carry out, i am not against health and safety like you may think but some of the regulations have gone way to far i look forward to discussing these issues with you when we meet i am also going to bring along a couple of method statements and risk assessments which where done for the job but got rejected by their health and safety officer to see what your opinions are, i have nearly 30 years experience at working at height on ladders and many other means including methods that are no longer used ie block and tackle rope work etc i can also give many examples of where following H and S rules can create more risks than not following them i hope you have a question and answer part to the seminar where i can bring these issues up but if you dont maybe we could have a chat after privately to discuss them.
  i am a member of the FWC and i hope it doesnt go down the route of just selling training courses but could also cover individual case studies in its magazine.

[WILLIS]

andy
  thanks for the offer i will definately attend the working at height seminar and would like to thank you for including a working from flat roof section as this is a major issue on one large commercial job we carry out, i am not against health and safety like you may think but some of the regulations have gone way to far i look forward to discussing these issues with you when we meet i am also going to bring along a couple of method statements and risk assessments which where done for the job but got rejected by their health and safety officer to see what your opinions are, i have nearly 30 years experience at working at height on ladders and many other means including methods that are no longer used ie block and tackle rope work etc i can also give many examples of where following H and S rules can create more risks than not following them i hope you have a question and answer part to the seminar where i can bring these issues up but if you dont maybe we could have a chat after privately to discuss them.
  i am a member of the FWC and i hope it doesnt go down the route of just selling training courses but could also cover individual case studies in its magazine.


[/Trevor ]

thanks for the post, look forward to meeting you  Andy

[wizard]

Guys I have read this thread with much interest and as one can see it is quite explosive subject. The thing that never fails to amaze is the insurance companies are exploiting this industry and so many others fanned on by H S people who have vested interested in H S because our government will not regulate it own laws. Don’t get me wrong I do believe we must be safety cons house, but there is room for workers to take reasonability for bad practices and risks they take. If you every feel you have to do a job and your company or customer says you must then look after yourself and work away. I had a injury 6 years back and I have no doubt who was at fault .Only Me and it cost me 6 month off work and 14 days in hospital at my cost. A lesson learned. But I am not neurotic about it, just more careful..

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Interesting thread. To nail my colours to the mast, I advocate full H&S implementation. In fact I see myself in a few years time working in H&S.

That said, I still don't fully implement them myself, old habits die hard. And this is where the problem lies IMHO.

I attended a H&S meeting on Sat for a voluntary organization the purpose being to 'interactively audit the H&S procedures' for this organization. One thing that was highlighted was the drive that the trades had for their particular trade. Great, plenty of good work getting done. However a single minded approach leaves no room for considering the possible outcome of doing thing 'how they have always been done' On this site if you don't follow H&S as instructed you will be asked to leave. Time and cost always after safety.

The long term impacts of accidents should always be considered, the instructor, a good friend of mine, told of his uncle who in a 2 second freak accident was a paraplegic until he died. The stress on his wife caring for him led to her early death as well.

Is it important? Yes. Is it just office bods finding things to do? No. These regulations have been penned by people who have seen the consequence of not following H&S.

We presume bad stuff only happens to 'other people'. Not true. 

I would be delighted if Willis could stay on and answer all H&S questions, maybe then we will be in a position to boast about zero accidents.

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

Or I'll warrant that no end of those working off ladders now will stand on their tippy-toes on the highest rung (regardless of height) pinch a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger and just stttrrreeetch that little bit more to get at that one single pane of glass rather than clamber down the ladder to move it a couple of feet and then climb back up the ladder to spend a few seconds cleaning that pane of glass.


Yes Ian, guilty as charged, done all them.
Years of ladder use brings expertise, show me a tight rope walker that spends as much time as a window cleaner practicing his art, a hundred risk assessments every working day.
Self preservation is a powerful instinct, and is more important to me than any regulations.
Most accidents are caused by unfamiliarity, complacency, and the unforeseen.
The first can be eliminated with the correct training, the second is down to the individual, and is probably why we need to have regulations, and the third is one of the main reasons I went WFP.

think this as been well argued out with some excellent points raised an
opinions aired by all i as a window cleaner ov 25 yrs av done all n more the same as dave n dai yes we av risked it , why coz when we av been up there n realised we shoulda been a rung or two up extra  the majority ov wc s will stretch n 9 times outa ten geta way wiv it as iv said on previous thread how high up i think top rung face on glass full stretch , some of the older windows r a stretch n there for the grace ov god we take risks this is a job ov risks full stop through training however jus as trad or wfp it gives u a lil extra tool  think like this "COMPLACENTCY BREEDS CONTEMPT or JUST THAT UP IS A LONG WAY DOWN " n believe you me it hurts when you fall n we all will its just a matter ov time , be safe out there think think think we all av wifes n families .

[tomy jackson]

good topic and wills not an arse like a lot of thos who say i kowe how but never dun it. how many windys do you kow thats com of a ladder ?? this is a Q for all

[Ian Lancaster]

However a single minded approach leaves no room for considering the possible outcome of doing thing 'how they have always been done' On this site if you don't follow H&S as instructed you will be asked to leave. Time and cost always after safety.

And you don't call your attitude SINGLE MINDED??

[gewindows]

Ironically if you ever do an H&S course they often like to mention “common sense”

Good point.

[old timer]

Ironically if you ever do an H&S course they often like to mention “common sense”

Good point.

I actually think that is a stupid point, your common sense may be on a different scale to someone elses common sense, so I think you will find someone teaching health and safety would have to be blagging it to say use common sense

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

However a single minded approach leaves no room for considering the possible outcome of doing thing 'how they have always been done' On this site if you don't follow H&S as instructed you will be asked to leave. Time and cost always after safety.

And you don't call your attitude SINGLE MINDED??

Why are you getting in a flap Ian? Everyone knows the deal before they start. No-one is paid for their time. And as far as I know it has very rarely been necessary to ask some one to leave the site. Traders apply to work on the sites and only responsible people are asked to work. It is in fact a great working environment. Hundred's of people giving their time freely AND happy to, not only follow but, go beyond the recommended H&S standards.

Added to this I am getting free on-site training from some very competent professionals.

[wizard]

Why when we are having a debate things always move to a personal level. This is why we need to grow for a long time before  will never be professional. Thank God our customers do not read this forum. We would loose business all the time. COME ON Mates stop the personal attracts.

[R W C™]

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