[Neil Williams]

I've just measured my carpet sample... Measures 84mm X 84mm then I wet it and it's now 80mm X 80mm.....

You got there first
Mine arrived today and i was going to do the same experiment. I presume the latex backing didn't shrink though?

[Colin Day]

I've just measured my carpet sample... Measures 84mm X 84mm then I wet it and it's now 80mm X 80mm.....

You got there first
Mine arrived today and i was going to do the same experiment. I presume the latex backing didn't shrink though?

The backing of mine is Jute..... I've ordered another 5 to use as tea coasters

[Neil Williams]

I just pre sprayed the jute one with latex backing (using a spray bottle to mimic pre spray) and the corners lifted up......just light pre spray 

[Dave_Lee]

Glyn,
In which part of the country are you based? One thing for sure along with the dreaded BW this particular type of carpet is now on my, 'Owners Risk Only' list.
Dave.

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Hi Dave I think alot of us have it at the TOP of our list now  Never come across it myself but boy will I know it if I do now GOT SOME SAMPLES bet they are wondering why they are sending so many out 

Regards Tony

[nevil]

I have also had a very close shave with this stuff a couple of years ago. I also HWE it. I very cautiously pre sprayed a small area looking for signs of contraction. I explained my concerns to the custy and she said it's been done before and encouraged me to go for it. I did and all seemed fine when I left.

The following spring I was called back to clean another room and noticed that the one I did last time was fitted badly around the door. She then told me it had been like that since my last visit. Fortunately for me she blamed herself for it as she had persuaded me that it was good to go and that it had been cleaned before. Damned if I was about to argue with that. I did however clean the room free of charge as a gesture. Telling her to use the £75 to get a fitter in.

I understand that if I was to try claim on my treatment risk insurance for this, they wouldn't pay if I had been negligent. I believe I was negligent and the insurance would have quite rightly told me that I should know how to clean carpets. Harsh but I think you will find it's the truth.

[Neil Williams]

I just pre sprayed the jute one with latex backing (using a spray bottle to mimic pre spray) and the corners lifted up......just light pre spray 

quick update. All 5 of my samples have latex backing and there's been no noticable shrinkage over the last few hours. The edges turned up but I guess that wouldn't have happened if they wre pinned down.
I've now soaked them to see if anything happens.

[james roffey]

Would be a very good idea to bring along a sample of this Crucial trading carpet that shrank to the CCDO so we can see them, i would not mind having a look again at some dodgy Wiltons as well, i was told that just look for the reverse pattern on the underside but theres more than the pattered type out there, and having it described for me is not sufficient im a bit thick. :
 i want to see one so i know what to look for.

[Jim_77]

I understand that if I was to try claim on my treatment risk insurance for this, they wouldn't pay if I had been negligent. I believe I was negligent and the insurance would have quite rightly told me that I should know how to clean carpets. Harsh but I think you will find it's the truth.

I disagree with that Nevil.  How can you ascertain beforehand, in a NON destructive manner, whether a carpet is going to shrink?  A good set of terms & conditions should read something like this:

2. The Supplier agrees to perform the work specified overleaf/attached in a workmanlike manner using reasonable care to attain the best possible results. However, all liability shall be excluded in respect of loss or damage arising from:
•   Faulty manufacture or inherent defect in any material(s) which is the subject of this contract.
•   Misuse, damage or cleaning by the customer of any material(s) which is the subject of this contract prior to work being undertaken.
•   Poor colour fastness or dimensional instability of any material which is apparent upon testing by the supplier prior to work being undertaken.
•   Manufacturers’ or other dye or markings on any material which is not apparent upon testing by the supplier prior to work being undertaken.
•   Failure to remove all stains and soiling.



I certainly wouldn't fork out for one of these carpets if it sprang off the grippers at me.  The manufacturer is just as liable, because arguably they've produced a floor covering that's not fit for purpose as per the sale of goods act.

What if you bought a car that the paint flaked off the first time you washed it?  You wouldn't blame the car wash would you?  My opinion is that the manufacturers should be pressurised into eradicating these ludicrous carpets.

If only we had some sort of national organisation to get things done like that.....

[Stu.Clem]

A trip to a carpet shop really is well worth the effort - they take on a whole new meaning when you are there to learn and not buy and I have found that  the sales people are more than happy to chat - if you pick a smaller quality shop then you will probably find you are talking to the owner  and they tend to have even more knowledge - and its free!!  See if you can pick out a BW (or whatever)then get it verified - simplez

Stu

[Michael Smallwood]

A trip to a carpet shop really is well worth the effort - Stu

Agreed.

I have a good relationship with a local carpet shop. Having just finished reading this thread, I am now late for work<  , also I called the shop to ask their view on the wool / linen carpets. Do you mean Crucial Trading? they asked.

Basically they refuse to stock the stuff and do not recommend it because of the problems associated with it, not least of which is that fitters dislike it.

Cheers

Mike

[L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner]

Jim,don`t want to enter into a `flame war`here but,,,,,,,,
When I was with the NCCA which is quite a few years
Ago now,they classed it as `professional negligence`and
Recommend the cleaner compensate the client/customer
To 6 times the cleaning price.Also as I understand it,correct
Me here hopefully that is,but a companies terms and conditions
Of contract ar`nt worth the paper it`s printed on.The reason
Being the customers rights are statutary.
The moral here being the customer wins every time.They hold
The aces in every situation having us running around like
 `blue blazes`and jumping thru`hoops when anything goes wrong !


Lewis  Doubtfire

[Jim_77]

Ask yourself this.

When this landlady eventually gets her replacement carpets of exactly the same type, they're going to get dirty - FACT.  What's she going to do then?

a) live with dirty carpets
b) rip them up and replace them
c) RIP OFF another unsuspecting carpet cleaner

These carpets are sh*t, end of story.  Carpets need to be cleanable, these are not, i.e. not fit for purpose.  The responsibility in my opinion lies with the manufacturer.

I would argue that fact in the courts till I was blue in the face and not pay a penny unless I had guns pointed at me to do so.

I'm professional, I'm generous to customers and I do loads of favours.  But I don't have MUG stamped on my forehead thank very much!

[fitz2kleen]

Ask yourself this.

When this landlady eventually gets her replacement carpets of exactly the same type, they're going to get dirty - FACT. What's she going to do then?

a) live with dirty carpets
b) rip them up and replace them
c) RIP OFF another unsuspecting carpet cleaner

These carpets are sh*t, end of story. Carpets need to be cleanable, these are not, i.e. not fit for purpose. The responsibility in my opinion lies with the manufacturer.

I would argue that fact in the courts till I was blue in the face and not pay a penny unless I had guns pointed at me to do so.

I'm professional, I'm generous to customers and I do loads of favours. But I don't have MUG stamped on my forehead thank very much!

dunno why but im strangley moving in the direction of jims comment and agreeing, mind u i can see where the tattoo on ur forehead was Jim ....
we all paid  out good money 4 our training and have the ability to identify carpets and how best to clean them, but come on if someone throws a spanner in the works ur are not gonna know till you get that phone call, or by being the overly cautious person and yank the carpet off its gripper to check the backing.
It could also be a conspiracy within the machine cleaning industry to have us all throw away our HWE machines hmmmmm now theres a thought )

i am still going to crucial trading monday if there are any points you'd like asking.
Regards Marc

[Hilton]

Can't agree Jim:

You are going in a whole new direction claiming 'Not Fit for Purpose'.

You must be loaded, because if you went to court to argue that you would lose....... heavily.

How is a carpet not fit for purpose ? by your definition because you say it can not be cleaned. (it can be)

The purpose of carpet is to cover the floor, add warmth, add to decor, trap soil, basically do what it says on the label.

The only way it would not be fit for purpose is if it had a manufacturing fault, was under specified by either the manufacturer or retailer (mis sold) or reacted in a adverse manner to a recommended cleaning procedure. Tough one this, as any manufacturer, should it go wrong, would argue that you did not clean it according to specifications.

This carpet was clearly fit for purpose and was not under specified, wool/flax will last for years in a high traffic area.

The method of cleaning for this carpet is LM or DRY, if you dry extract, it has been cleaned, therefore your argument goes right out the window, it can also be HOST cleaned quite safetly or with great care LM cleaned using pads.

In my opinion NO carpet is un-cleanable, its just up to you as a professional carpet cleaner to make a commercial decision as to whether you want to take it on or not, of course results would be dependent on the carpet and the process used which you qualify with the customer.

For instance why do we have so much trouble with Belguim Wiltons in this country ? it is because they are not designed to be fitted on underlay and gripper, in Europe they were/ are trade 100% stick down to hard floor, mainly in hotel environment,  so when cleaned will not shrink,Its purely a British adaption to be fitted on underlay made by carpet buyers years ago who, saw an opportunity to sell 'Wiltons' very cheaply to low end users but they knew they would have to go on underlay and gripper in the home to give the appearance of a wilton installation.

Once they started shrinking after cleaning and they were inundated with claims for replacement due to under specification, they changed tack and changed the maintenance requirements covering themselves all end up and leaving poor old sud suckers picking up the bill.

Having said that T & C are a must and should be on the back of all your quotes and invoices.

[Ian Gourlay]

Been following this one and I do feel for you.  Was in a problem with a client a couple years ago and the support from the guys on here was tremendous, as now.

Re treatment risk.
I for one, thought insurance for carpet cleaning, or any other sort of cleaning I suppose, would include insurance for the piece you working on. It doesnt.
I found this out after I went on the NCCA course and then wanted to join the NCCA. You have to show proof you have treatment risk insurance. I enquired with my broker and found I did not have treatment risk. Shock!
My then insurance company did not offer treatment risk either, so I changed insurers and joined the NCCA (who says there is no benefit of joining the NCCA - benefitted me then).
I have just changed insurers again, and one of the first criteria I set for them was that it MUST include treatment risk and I need it in print. No problem.
As to cost.
By the fact I had to change insurers to get to join NCCA, my premium dropped with the new insurer. And this year changing again has seen a further drop in cost.  Worth shopping around but make sure you looking at like for like.

Well why not share the information. As I like others search evey year for an insurer who does treatment risk and have to end up with my present company

Royal Sun Alliance through Ansley Insurance  Brokers who Ashbys reccomended

Regarding the current problem my stomach turns for you. and the fact that you were probably misled when you took out insurance.

Does your policy have a legal help clause, because the fitter could be a fault, the retailer could be at fault and the importer could cold be at fault  aswell as yourself.

So why should you bare all the cost.

Was  the customer given any cleaning advise. Does the Carpet carry any warning labels.

Difficult as you want to do right thing but I have found out that ruthless hard nose people fight to the last inch and often win

[garyfindlay]

I had a carpet shrink on me a while ago. I was fitted to a new house, concrete floor, with only tacks driven into the concrete. Sat like that for 5 years until it`s first clean, then moved a couple of cm. Fitter glued double gripper, then refitted/stretched  next day, and advised customers to phone trading standards. It does give you a scare.

[james roffey]

Just thought about the debate about whether its worthwhile joining NCCA, well if you do join when you start in this trade, you get training, alright its pretty basic stuff but still very important i learnt a lot especially about the pitfalls ie Belgian Wilton, bleed tests that should have been done and the results if not etc etc also i would not have been able to join without the correct insurance which includes treatment risk, i did not consider the significance of that until this particular thread came up but its a sobering thought

[Joe H]

Been following this one and I do feel for you.  Was in a problem with a client a couple years ago and the support from the guys on here was tremendous, as now.

Re treatment risk.
I for one, thought insurance for carpet cleaning, or any other sort of cleaning I suppose, would include insurance for the piece you working on. It doesnt.
I found this out after I went on the NCCA course and then wanted to join the NCCA. You have to show proof you have treatment risk insurance. I enquired with my broker and found I did not have treatment risk. Shock!
My then insurance company did not offer treatment risk either, so I changed insurers and joined the NCCA (who says there is no benefit of joining the NCCA - benefitted me then).
I have just changed insurers again, and one of the first criteria I set for them was that it MUST include treatment risk and I need it in print. No problem.
As to cost.
By the fact I had to change insurers to get to join NCCA, my premium dropped with the new insurer. And this year changing again has seen a further drop in cost.  Worth shopping around but make sure you looking at like for like.

Well why not share the information. As I like others search evey year for an insurer who does treatment risk and have to end up with my present company

Royal Sun Alliance through Ansley Insurance  Brokers who Ashbys reccomended

No problem Ian.
My broker is quotelinedirect 0161 8747740
Insurer         Quinn Insurance Ltd

[Colin Day]

Just thought about the debate about whether its worthwhile joining NCCA, well if you do join when you start in this trade, you get training, alright its pretty basic stuff but still very important i learnt a lot especially about the pitfalls ie Belgian Wilton, bleed tests that should have been done and the results if not etc etc also i would not have been able to join without the correct insurance which includes treatment risk, i did not consider the significance of that until this particular thread came up but its a sobering thought

Yes, I agree with you....! Maybe it's time for me to join NCCA!