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Sean Dyer

  • Posts: 2947
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2009, 10:52:32 pm »
saying all insurances are the same no matter what method is bonkers

Its like saying car insurance is the same because its all driving, yet they accept that certain age groups and power of vehicles are a greater risk

Surely if you abseil, or use mewps, etc the risk of 3rd party damage is huge - dropping a ladder could cause damage but nowhere near a cradle being operated wrong, or a cherry picker going through a roof!or an abseiler dropping a squeegee on someone head from the 20 th floor :)


Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2009, 11:28:29 pm »
Q What does a public liability insurance policy cover?   

 Most policies also restrict the maximum height you can work at to 15m and restrict the premises you work on to houses, office, shops and hotels. Any work you carry out at other premises will be excluded. 


15m? That's 45ft. I don't know any trad guys who'll go that high.

Houses, office, shops and hotels...think that covers it for 99.99% of window cleaners.

Sorry Ronnie what point are you trying to make?



50ft ;)

Window Washers

  • Posts: 9036
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2009, 11:35:38 pm »
Had a bit of a shock today, I was doing a block of 12 luxury apartments on the seafront.
Quite a few had their usual splashes of seagull muck, I looked out for the affected windows and gave each one a soak prior to washing.
I started on the job scrubbing each pane until the poo had disappeared, gave a good rinse and moved on to the next.
I finished the job at 4 pm, by which time the windows had dried. The sun was shining on the cleaned glass as it sank lower in the sky. the poo had returned, you could still see it on most of the panes.
Ok did them again, as soon as the water hit the glass the marks were invisible again, only to reappear all be it fainter as they dried. I did one pane 5 times before I was satisfied that all traces had gone.
Now on most jobs, I would have already moved on before the glass dried.
I think it's all to easy to delude ourselves about the power of pure water and WFP.
LESSON LEARNED.
yells me dia you are dancing to quick m8, slow down and do the job correctly ;)
also while I am here can you bottle what ever makes you tick as I want some as do many on here, I will give you 50/50 after expense  ;D
If your not willing to learn, No one can help you, If you are determined to learn, No one can stop you ;)

dazmond

  • Posts: 23650
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2009, 05:25:21 am »
pro window u say u run amore professional service since u went WFP but u dont always get the birdmuck off,whip round in half the time and say'that,ll be a tenner please'.sounds really PROFESSIONAL.im not slagging WFP im gona have to try it as most on here use it but a lot of my custys have NEVER EVEN HEARD OF WFP :o :o :oand the results are not great from the honest lads on this forum.BUT u still get away with it most of the time and make more money and are less tired cos ur not climbing ladders a hundred times a day.is that it in a nutshell?right thats it IM GETTING A VAN SYSTEM WITH A BACKPACK and give it 6 months,if a dont like it i can always go back to ladders full time ;D ;D
price higher/work harder!

Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2009, 08:30:52 am »
pro window u say u run amore professional service since u went WFP but u dont always get the birdmuck off,whip round in half the time and say'that,ll be a tenner please'.sounds really PROFESSIONAL.im not slagging WFP im gona have to try it as most on here use it but a lot of my custys have NEVER EVEN HEARD OF WFP :o :o :oand the results are not great from the honest lads on this forum.BUT u still get away with it most of the time and make more money and are less tired cos ur not climbing ladders a hundred times a day.is that it in a nutshell?right thats it IM GETTING A VAN SYSTEM WITH A BACKPACK and give it 6 months,if a dont like it i can always go back to ladders full time ;D ;D

I'm glad to see that you are getting a van system as well as a backpack because you probably wouldn't get the full benefits of the extra speed from a backpack only.  Also, first cleans will be particularly laborious due to the high amount of water needed.  I count windows that have already been cleaned trad as first cleans because you will need to treat them that way due to detergent film and if the top frame hasn't been wiped recently.
Good to see that you are giving it six months.  Many people find the first couple of cleans a right pain until they adapt to the new way of working.  I struggled badly at first but would not want to go back to ladders now.

simon knight

Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2009, 09:41:22 am »
saying all insurances are the same no matter what method is bonkers

Its like saying car insurance is the same because its all driving, yet they accept that certain age groups and power of vehicles are a greater risk

Surely if you abseil, or use mewps, etc the risk of 3rd party damage is huge - dropping a ladder could cause damage but nowhere near a cradle being operated wrong, or a cherry picker going through a roof!or an abseiler dropping a squeegee on someone head from the 20 th floor :)

All I can say is that when I asked for insurance I can assure you 100% that I wasn't asked what height I would be working at, what method I use or what kind of buildings I would be working on. Axa work on the assumption that I'm a standard window cleaner doing standard cleans on standard buildings.

Abseiling, cradle work or using a cherry picker is specialist stuff and obviously requires different cover and the insurance company would expect you to reveal this when asking for a quote.

When you insure your house contents for £25k the insurance company doesn't ask you to list the contents. Obviously if out of the £25k £20k of it is your wifes diamond engagement ring then of course you must declare this. And it's the same with window cleaning, unless you tell them otherwise they assume that you're not going to be doing specialist work.

So to repeat myself: I was not asked at what height I would be working.

ronnie paton

  • Posts: 3245
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2009, 10:11:42 am »
assumptions in isurance get people in trouble, i assume you are a normal window cleaner with ladders so i wont had the extra massive premium for your water tank fitted.

my point is insurance companies dont care has they have your money and if you make a claim they will not care that they assumed on anything it is your responsibility to inform them.

Simon it was your ILL EXPLAIN WHAT LIABILITY INSURANCE IS attituide that has got this so far less of the no it all attituide hey trying belittle people........

this is my last post onthe matter has i believe if you thin black is  white it is.

simon knight

Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2009, 10:19:29 am »
assumptions in isurance get people in trouble, i assume you are a normal window cleaner with ladders so i wont had the extra massive premium for your water tank fitted.

my point is insurance companies dont care has they have your money and if you make a claim they will not care that they assumed on anything it is your responsibility to inform them.

Simon it was your ILL EXPLAIN WHAT LIABILITY INSURANCE IS attituide that has got this so far less of the no it all attituide hey trying belittle people........

this is my last post onthe matter has i believe if you thin black is  white it is.

Trad window cleaner, insured for £2.5m, wasn't asked about what height etc.

If my "I'll explain what PL is" comment has got up your nose then I apologise but I really got the impression that you didn't know and was trying to be helpful.

Anyway this is also my last post on the matter.

billy08

  • Posts: 80
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2009, 10:37:25 am »
Wfp is brill, it has helped me carry on window cleaning because I had got stuck in a rut after 30 yrs.

I was always getting really moody and pixxed of with it all.80% of my work is now wfp,which is mainly large detached houses,but now im much happier,work is alot easier,got more spare time and of course it helps that I earn a bit more :)

Do I trust it,I used to worry, but in 3 yrs I've had one complaint, so I know it does a good enough job and just get on with it.couln't face the thought of going all trad again.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2009, 11:05:37 am »
                      ANY MORE INSURANCE POSTS WILL BE DELETED FROM THIS THREAD!

As interesting as the insurance debate has been, should anyone wish to continue with it, please start a fresh thread specific to the topic.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

G Griffin

  • Posts: 40745
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2009, 11:40:05 am »
For problem windows wfp, could it possible to add certain detergents to a barrell of pure water, scrub and then rinse with just pure water? 
  Or t-bar on a pole, clean windows and the rinse with wfp.

  Apart from being time consuming, are there any reasons for these methods not being practical?

   I may sound really thick, so go easy on me   :P

                         Gerry.
Anyone  ???
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2009, 11:46:37 am »
People on here have focused in on bird poo and fly poo...as if every house you come across has every window covered in the stuff!

In the past when I was wholly trad I thought I always did a perfect job....absolutely mint!  ;)
Until the customer asks you to clean the insides for them...
You will almost certainly come across the odd mark, kick, line or run that you need to nip back out to get rid of.
Is bird poo really that much of a problem with WFP? Not in my own opinion anyway, most of the time you can see it and get rid of it without any problem at all.
Seagull poo is probably the worst though, and I'll agree you can have real problems with that on upstairs windows.
But again, most window cleaners are not going to have to deal with this day in and day out are they.

Fly poo, spider poo and bee poo, they call all be a pain to get rid of no matter the system you use, especially on frames and sills, but where spiders and there nests and webs are concerned, WFP rules, you can blast them out of every nook and cranny, frames can be cleaned far more intensively with WFP.
With some of the insect marks the only way you will get rid of them, of frames especially is with a lot of elbow grease and a cream cleaner....so sod that for a game of soldiers, trad or WFP I'd never go that far unless the customer was prepared to pay a lot extra for the service.

I do plenty of houses inside and out, ditto with a lot of commercial work, and although the work on the outside may not be inch perfect all the way around, nothing is usually bad enough to stand out, and if it is, just as I would when I found such mistakes when working trad, I go out and pick them up.

And on georgian or leaded work, WFP is far superior, regardless of whether or not the trad window cleaner uses a cut down squeegee or a buffing technique, there will be far more mistakes made on the glass, either with lines from detailing or kicks and squeegee lines, or with smears from buffing...especially if the sun is at the right angle, THEY WILL show up.

Of course on badly oxidised windows, it is far harder to get a spotless finish with WFP, and in those circumstances there are times when the only option to get a really good finish is to use trad, especially on georgian work, but that isn't to say you can't get the work to a readily acceptable standard.

So do I trust WFP?
Well, yes, mostly I do, I'm experienced enough to know when I'm going to have a problem, and usually I'm also skilful  enough in most circumstances to do the job to a high standard. When WFP can't hack it I will use my trad gear....but NOT on upstairs work (well, very rarely anyway ::))


Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2009, 11:57:10 am »
For problem windows wfp, could it possible to add certain detergents to a barrell of pure water, scrub and then rinse with just pure water? 
  Or t-bar on a pole, clean windows and the rinse with wfp.

  Apart from being time consuming, are there any reasons for these methods not being practical?

   I may sound really thick, so go easy on me   :P

                         Gerry.
Anyone  ???

It might work OK to use detergent before final brush and rinse but you could be making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself as it is better to keep chemicals away from glass once you start using WFP (the film residue can contaminate the purity and cause spotting).  I tend to soak and brush then use a scraper on a trad pole for anything extra stubborn.  If something is really bad, I will get the ladder off occasionally and use an abrasive pad on it (white washing up pads that are marked "scratchproof" or similar).  You must be careful if you use pads like this as some types can scratch glass.  Tucker do a twin hose system where you can "inject" whatever chemical into the line of fire.  I think they can only fit onto Tucker poles though (don't grill me on this as I've no experience of them).
Also, Omnipole have a scratch proof pad through which pure water seeps.  Again, they are only able to be used on their own powerpoles due to the type of  fittings.
Once it becomes necessary to use an abrasive pad on the glass, I feel that it is better to do that bit by hand anyway as you have more control of how hard you press on the glass.
Of course, if all else fails and there is no safe access, I'm not above informing the customer that I am unable to give a fully effective clean on certain panes unless I use a cherry picker at extremely high cost to them (not that I would be allowed to operate one as I've not been trained).  On exceptional occasions, for safety's sake, the customer will just have to accept that a perfect job isn't practical.
If something comes off with a t bar on a pole, it ought to come off with pure water really so long as you leave it to soak and keep returning to it for more soaking and scrubbing.

G Griffin

  • Posts: 40745
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2009, 12:03:06 pm »
Thank you Leapstallbuildings  :)
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Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2009, 01:22:59 pm »
On a similar vein: As well as a full van mount I also have a WCW backpack, converted to a lightweight, sack truck trolley mount system.
On certain occasions, if it is a clean on a property that has not been cleaned for a very long time (several years usually) in one of my 25 litre barrels I'll add a mix of either detergent or Isopropanol (or both) and use that to fill up the backpack, first time clean thoroughly scrubbed and cleaned soapy water (not TOO soapy I'll add!)
Then the girlfriend will be coming along behind me with the van mount system, re-washing and rinsing down.
Takes a lot longer of course, but that can also be a better option than doing a similar job trad, mostly because the frames on such a clean are also utterly filthy too.

Easy enough to rinse out both your backpack and 25l container after you have finished too.

Also easy enough to simply add whatever chemical you might need direct to either a dedicated trolley system or backpack.
Again, very easy to clean and rinse out after use.

If you only have a van mount though, you can just put some soapy water in a bucket, dip in the brush and scrub whatever awkward window needs a bit of an extra clean.
Pinch off the water supply to the brush though otherwise it can be diluted too quickly to be effective.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Mike 108

  • Posts: 650
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2009, 01:40:31 pm »
Ian Giles

 :)  As usual - two sensible/well-informed/helpful posts.

Mike

Ste M

  • Posts: 1824
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2009, 08:35:02 pm »
i got my backpack last week, been practicising on my own house until i roll it out this week. I origianly did the first clean with a vikin head and noticed a fair few spots all over the windows, some where ok but not up to my usual trad standard. I bought a new ionic head at the FWC show the other day though and fitted it today and then did another clean, well i inspected it once dry and its fantastic, wether this is down to it being the 2nd clean or the new head or simply that im used to it more i dont know, what i do know is that im more confident with it now and im looking forward to it being used on my customers this week. ;D

wizard

Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2009, 09:55:57 pm »
I am a window cleaner and will only feel compleat once I us all systems ,Trad WFP and the inside of glass I would feel incompleat of I did not do all systems. I am a professional and will use the system that will do the job best.its my knowlege that they pay  for, no trd or a pole. Its skill that does the results.

ftp

  • Posts: 4694
Re: Do you really trust WFP
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2009, 06:19:05 pm »
Knowledge? Skill? I think you'll find they are paying for your labour.