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Poll

Acceptable

Yes
16.4%
12 (16.4%)
No
78.1%
57 (78.1%)
Unsure
5.5%
4 (5.5%)

Total Members Voted: 65

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Bad Practice ? balconies
« on: July 21, 2009, 09:54:02 am »
Following recent conversations with the FWC and an article in window Talk. It seems the FWC do not consider climbing over balconies as good practice and have advised that It shouldnt be done.

Have a look at this clip and tell me what you think, also please vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWgxfLPJOo

traps7

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 09:59:49 am »
Its because of people like that that draws unwanted ott attention from health and safety. He's obviously a bit stupid or something.

DaveG

  • Posts: 6348
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 09:59:53 am »
Shocking to watch but i used to do exactly the same
You can't polish a turd

traps7

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 10:22:37 am »
Doesn't matter about his cleaning technique. You can't clean a balcony like that. It's just stupid. And I would have no sympathy if he fell. All he had to do was shift the ladder over for each pane. It will just give the pro wfp'ers more ammo. And I have been wfp for 9 weeks now after 17 years trad before someone starts banging on about ladders not being safe.

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 10:27:09 am »
Forgrtting about him cleaning the outside glass, what about actually climbing over

cozy

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 10:32:32 am »
I have to climb over a few balconies on some of the larger houses. I have no probs with that, I admit, I used to do stupid risky rubbish like that guy when I first started. There is a bit of a macho culture over here in the trade. Had my ladder slip away from under me because I set it too far away from a building. That stopped me acting like a prat.

I recon there is enough risk in this game without hero macho types like him.

traps7

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 10:55:22 am »
I do climb over some balconies either because I can't get my pole through  the railings at a good angle or they are solid. It is a bit dodgy  actually getting over I think. If the ladder protudes over too much I find it worse. And getting back on is difficult no matter how much it protudes. You have to be careful the ladder doesn't slide laterally I find.

clean

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 10:59:56 am »
That is really bad,all i can say is he must not have any care in the world for his safety  :-\

windowswashed

  • Posts: 2626
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009, 12:11:55 pm »
Total disregard for his safety and the safety of others below, just to save a few minutes to maximise profit. Idiotic and stupid. Just gives him a reputation for being a foolish and dangerous wc.

bad trippy

  • Posts: 3268
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009, 12:51:46 pm »
I cant understand why he couldnt clean the outside glass from the safe side of the balcony ie just bend over a little, it would be far safer than hanging on the rail on the outside
www.clearviewbristol.co.uk
Add me on Facebook clear view window cleaning

mlscontractcleaner

  • Posts: 1483
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009, 03:51:13 pm »
I do have certain jobs that I need to get the ladder from the van for; climbing on to a flat roof or climbing over a balcony to get to windows or french doors behind.

I wouldn't however walk along the balcony to clean the outside; I'd use my wfp.

To be honest though, when I was MUCH younger I'd take chances that I'd slate someone for now I'm a 40 year old pensioner. I guess we all grow up and become wise ;)
Come and talk dirty to us!!!

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009, 04:54:16 pm »
When I first started, I was taught to use methods like this as standard acceptable practice.

All the window cleaning firms did it the same way, it was priced as low as possible so if they didn't they just didn't get the work.  I'm not saying for one moment that the old methods were preferable but everything has to be considered on its merits.

In the five years or so that I worked in London I only ever heard of one fatal fall, and that was a brash youngster who wouldn't listen.

Consider that this man has a good solid hand hold on the balcony rail, and that he has more than ample space for his feet, is he in any more danger than he would be standing on a ladder?

Don't just look and think "OMG what a stupid thing to do" think about what I've said above.

It's easy to jump to conclusion without thinking about it.  Regardless of how dangerous it looks, you - I - or anybody with experience and training could traverse balconies like this all day long without falling.  What makes it look more dangerous is that there is nothing underneath him, if he were on a ladder then there would be the ladder under him, but if he slipped off the ladder, that wouldn't make any difference - he would still fall.

Having said that, this chap seems to have a death wish the way he swings both feet at once and relies on getting a proper foothold every time.  If he moved one foot at a time (as you would on a ladder) then he fulfills the requirement of "three points of contact" as ladder good practice dictates.

What I'm leading up to is my objection to blanket statements such as "climbing a ladder to access a balcony is dangerous and shouldn't be done".

That, in my opinion, is as bad as the H&S's belief that proper window cleaners ladders (which were devised specifically for the job by people who knew what they were doing) are unsafe and shouldn't be used.

If a ladder can be set safely in a way that prevents it from slipping, and extended beyond the point of contact to provide safe handhold there is no reason whatsoever why a trained and competent person should not use it to gain access onto a balcony.

And there's the critical point:  I am firmly convinced that H&S approach ladder safety from the layman's reaction:  "B.... H.... - that looks dangerous" and immediately set about proving that their first impressions must be right.

The consequence of that is that all ladder training is geared to preventing what they perceive to be the obvious hazards, and in doing so succeed in outlawing perfectly sensible and safe practises simply because they "seem" to be dangerous.

Ask any first time ladder user if they feel safe at the top of the ladder.  The inevitable response "no".

Does that mean that no-one is safe up a ladder?

I'm all for safe practice.  I don't want an accident any more than the next man, but I reserve the right to apply my years of experience and put my trust in my own expertise and common sense and not blindly follow the directives of a department more concerned with box ticking than real practicalities.

And in case you're wondering, I voted "not acceptable"

traps7

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2009, 05:17:05 pm »
No excuses for that. In the modern day it's totally unnecessary and unacceptable. Wfp great, no problem. And even on a ladder directly below each pane if you fall you may have a chance to grab something. But if he just makes one slight mistake he's paralysed or dead. There can be no justification for him doing that. No matter what.

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2009, 05:32:13 pm »
I wouldn't do what he's doing though I have to admit that there is one balcony that I climb over.
However, it is very different from the one in the video.  Firstly, it's not as high.  Secondly, it is wood only and there is plenty of room to fit the ladder styles between the vertical rail supports.  This prevents the ladder slipping sideways.  Also, the ladder is sited on grass so I always dig in a bit.  That ensures that the ladder is going nowhere.  The balcony railing is not so high from the balcony base either.  It is a very easy climb with plenty of reliable handholds.  So, it can be OK under certain conditions IMO.  In fact, I have another part of that job where I need to climb onto a flat roof.  IMO, the balcony climb is the safer of the two.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2009, 05:40:44 pm »
I climb over them to do windows but those 1`s i would have poled.

windowcleaninginessex.co.uk

  • Posts: 716
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2009, 06:04:31 pm »
If we are honest, most of us would of taken silly chances like that when we were younger, but I know I am 40 years old  now and I wouldn't do that. I have grown up but the wife stills says I still act like a kid
Darren
---THE BEST YOU CAN GET---
www.windowcleaninginessex.co.uk

a900

  • Posts: 511
Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2009, 06:13:12 pm »
Im young (17) but i wouldn't shimmy along the outside of that or any balcony.

I would climb up and over otherwise i would have to ensure that i can get through the property to get to the windows which would be a pain.

Started with WFP and still not gone up a ladder to the height of first floor. lol

traps7

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2009, 06:24:52 pm »
But you'll probably live longer than that guy.

martinsadie

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2009, 06:50:42 pm »
i climb over a few balconys but the ladder is always above the top rail and against the wall or upright to stop slide,as i got older and struggled getting my leg over (wait for the jokes  ;D) i now take a small pair of steps up to place on the other side,wish i had done this years ago and saved all the ball rolling

Ravensford

Re: Bad Practice ? balconies
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 07:05:58 pm »

That, in my opinion, is as bad as the H&S's belief that proper window cleaners ladders (which were devised specifically for the job by people who knew what they were doing) are unsafe and shouldn't be used.

Ian,

I think you might be wrong on this. About a year ago the HSE made a point in the national newspapers that they were happy with ladders being used provided they were justified by a risk assessment. They said they were 'being banned' by over-zealous Company H & S departments - or was that the point you were making?  ???

With wfp there is a safer way to clean the balconies but, like you, a wouldn't criticise the person involved. After all, if it was that reckless scaffolding would never be erected!!! Scaffolding has always been viewed as the most dangerous aspect of construction & involves far more risk than what the chap in the video is exposed to.

Regards,

Dave