[Moderator David@stives]

Ian is on about the pointed window cleaning ladders

[ronnie paton]

i did the nvq recently and they showed us a article of what the HSE thought was good practise to clean windows and they said they didnt feel using ladders were.

I may be slighty wrong in what im saying but it was there or there abouts!

[martinsadie]

i wonder how many people who come up with this h&s stuff have cleaned windows for a living,its like me going into a shipyard and telling them how to build ships

[trevor perry]

When I first started, I was taught to use methods like this as standard acceptable practice.

All the window cleaning firms did it the same way, it was priced as low as possible so if they didn't they just didn't get the work.  I'm not saying for one moment that the old methods were preferable but everything has to be considered on its merits.

In the five years or so that I worked in London I only ever heard of one fatal fall, and that was a brash youngster who wouldn't listen.

Consider that this man has a good solid hand hold on the balcony rail, and that he has more than ample space for his feet, is he in any more danger than he would be standing on a ladder?

Don't just look and think "OMG what a stupid thing to do" think about what I've said above.

It's easy to jump to conclusion without thinking about it.  Regardless of how dangerous it looks, you - I - or anybody with experience and training could traverse balconies like this all day long without falling.  What makes it look more dangerous is that there is nothing underneath him, if he were on a ladder then there would be the ladder under him, but if he slipped off the ladder, that wouldn't make any difference - he would still fall.

Having said that, this chap seems to have a death wish the way he swings both feet at once and relies on getting a proper foothold every time.  If he moved one foot at a time (as you would on a ladder) then he fulfills the requirement of "three points of contact" as ladder good practice dictates.

What I'm leading up to is my objection to blanket statements such as "climbing a ladder to access a balcony is dangerous and shouldn't be done".

That, in my opinion, is as bad as the H&S's belief that proper window cleaners ladders (which were devised specifically for the job by people who knew what they were doing) are unsafe and shouldn't be used.

If a ladder can be set safely in a way that prevents it from slipping, and extended beyond the point of contact to provide safe handhold there is no reason whatsoever why a trained and competent person should not use it to gain access onto a balcony.

And there's the critical point:  I am firmly convinced that H&S approach ladder safety from the layman's reaction:  "B.... H.... - that looks dangerous" and immediately set about proving that their first impressions must be right.

The consequence of that is that all ladder training is geared to preventing what they perceive to be the obvious hazards, and in doing so succeed in outlawing perfectly sensible and safe practises simply because they "seem" to be dangerous.

Ask any first time ladder user if they feel safe at the top of the ladder.  The inevitable response "no".

Does that mean that no-one is safe up a ladder?

I'm all for safe practice.  I don't want an accident any more than the next man, but I reserve the right to apply my years of experience and put my trust in my own expertise and common sense and not blindly follow the directives of a department more concerned with box ticking than real practicalities.

And in case you're wondering, I voted "not acceptable"

 100% agree, when i started it was common practice to walk on ledges etc to clean windows in fact it was my dad who taught me how to do it so either he didnt like me much or he knew that as stated above if there where good hand holds and ledges where solid then it was as safe if not safer than using a ladder, would i still do it now then the answer is no but only because the health and safety tell me that i cant and not because i think its unsafe.
  

[dai]

As said, I would do the outside WFP.
Getting on and off the balcony is a different matter, there is a safer way to do it and that guy isn't using it.
1] use a ladder with stabiliseri fitted.
2] Place the ladder so that it just protrudes above the top rail and make sure the top of the ladder goes behind the left hand down pillar
] take a small pair of steps[ I use a milk crate] up and place it on the floor, step over the balcony rail onto the steps or crate. [cock your right leg over and the ladder can only press up against the down pilar].

Getting off, you stand on the steps, cock your left leg over, again the ladder can't move sideways because the pillar is s stopping it.
I use this method all the time and it has proven to be quite safe.
The problem is at my age I am finding it harder to get my leg over.

[Nathanael Jones]

However small the risk (and personally I don't think its small at all), if that risk can be removed it should be removed. Its only common sense.

Personally I think that kind of work practice is sheer madness though.

[Londoner]

I've seen worse, a lot worse.

But from a commercial point of view, I could have poled that glass in half the time he spent faffing about getting his ladder set up, climbing up there etc.

[Neil271052]

The bloke obviously feels safe and personally it doesn't look too dangerous to me. In some jobs you just have to do it the best way possible.

TBH after 20 years of bill posting around London with my gang often with triple 18 foot ladders out and working alone (with never an accident) most window cleaning jobs look incredibly easy. 

WFP has made a lot of people into old women IMO.

Driving to the jobs is more dangerous than when you get there,  H&S should ban vans. 

[jonnyald]

but i notice bill posters  always  fix their ladders to special eyes that are below the billboards . 

[Neil271052]

but i notice bill posters  always  fix their ladders to special eyes that are below the billboards . 

They do now, in the last couple of years a H&S directive  doubled the time it took to post a board     strapping and unstrapping to the fixed eyes and had to be used even on a ground level job (10ft high in total)

Ludicrous as we always had ladder stays at the top of the board to prevent lateral movement of the ladder.

That's when I retired from bill posting. 

[andyjm1]

I wouldn't even consider climbing over a balcony. It's either through the property or not at all.

[jonnyald]

was it good money,the bill posting?  theres a couple of bilboards near my home so i see them  up n down the ladders often.  other day i saw a man scraping and painting the frame round the billboard ,he looked in a hurry too

[Gordon Saunders]

Thats nothing check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2TJ3tU8mbo

[clean]

Thats nothing check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2TJ3tU8mbo

I don`t think he`s cleaning windows 

[bluez]

If you were this guys employer you would be in deep trouble if anything happened to him and you could not prove that he had been adequately instructed and trained in his task and that suitable equipment had been provided.  

Whatever about the personal risk to him the financial risk to the employer is enormous. For employer read business owner, building contractor, house owner.
If I had an accident there I would include all three in my liability case.

A risk assesment on this job would probably have shown that it could be done from the balcony safely, or from a ladder. Worst case scenario he wears a harness attached to the rail while leaning over.

The issue I have with this video is that the risks taken are entirely unnecessary. He wasn't saving money, or time or even improving his work quality by doing it this way.

He could have done this in a safer way. It is idiots like this that will have us all ruined by over zealous health and safety desk jockeys.

[ftp]

I've done far worse than that - when I used to deliver Milk Tray.

[DaveG]

I've done far worse than that - when I used to deliver Milk Tray.

best reply in a long time!!

[SherwoodCleaningSe]

I know 2 people that have fallen, not from a ladder but when the ladder has blown over and they have been stuck, 1 on a porch roof and the other on a balcony.  Both jumped to the floor, both broke their ankles, one has since had his ankle fused as arthritis was setting in. 

May seem safe but once you have moved away from your ladder, who knows what will happen to the ladder.  I remember once climbing on a garage roof and the customer then moving the ladder so he could get to the garage, not giving any thought to me.

Simon.

[martinsadie]

I've done far worse than that - when I used to deliver Milk Tray.

[Londoner]

Most accidents occour when getting on or off a ladder onto a balcony or a fflat roof. Its that point in time when you have to lean across and commit your weight to the ladder but you are too far to go back.

If the ladders going to go, thats when it will happen. I'm sure all of us have felt a ladder move when doing this at some time or another.