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Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Question about Brodex Crash test
« on: March 14, 2009, 07:45:55 pm »
Dont mean to be a party pooper, but I have a couple of questions about the Brodex Crash Test.

 Why in the test is the system fitted with the baffles sideways, Is it a case of if the tank was fitted with the baffles pointing in the direction of travel that the tank might deform and pop out of its bracket.

Also have you got any written information about the speeds of the test, and did you test all your sizes or was it just the 350 litre.

Have you got any data from the crash test facility , you can show us, surely there is some crash data showing the speed and forces involved.

The reason I ask is I am in the market for 3 tanks as you might know, and just want to share your reply with my fellow posters.

I have many more questions, but i will just ask these for now.


R W C

Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2009, 07:49:09 pm »
I think x-line have there baffles going the same way, so maybe they could say why this is.

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2009, 07:55:33 pm »
Brodex have one baffle which is the big V cut out in the bottom of the tank, I would of thought it would be there to stop the forward thrust of water, rather than side to side.

I seriously doubt if the V tank would pass a crash test if the tank was fitted front to back with the baffle running from side to side, that is the reason for that question. If you look at the test, towards the end you will see the V I am on about.

I am a little concerned about this , say In a few years time they become retro fit on the second hand market, how do we ensure the tanks are retro fitted the right way around.

I think this question is very important

Captain Scarlet

  • Posts: 3087
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2009, 07:58:32 pm »
something seems very dodgy about that test video  ;)
Ffenest ( est 2007 ) is a fully insured premium quality window cleaning service based at Llandderfel near Bala. All our work is guaranteed, rain or shine, year round.

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 09:50:02 pm »
Ewan

The baffles should be perpendicular to the direction of motion, to stop the water swaying backwards and forwards, idealy they should be baffled in both directions

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2009, 09:53:58 pm »
Ewan

The baffles should be perpendicular to the direction of motion, to stop the water swaying backwards and forwards, idealy they should be baffled in both directions

I thought the baffles were to stop sideways motion of the water which could cause dangerous shifting of weight on cornering? But yes, baffles in both directions is a much better idea.

drwindows

  • Posts: 258
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2009, 10:12:35 pm »
I have to admit, I too am a little suspicious about just how vague the information is.

Have a look on their website and you don't see any detail about it at all, just a rather poor video that doesnt even tell you the speed.

If I were brodex and I had a crash tested system same as ionics, I would be making a big deal about it to anyone who will listen.  However, what I saw at the show was that it was very low-key, with yet more vague details.  (I asked the brodex guy if it had been tested to the same standard as ionics one and he said "yes, mira standard".  Eh?  what does that mean? when I probed further he got a little annoyed and just kept reapeating "mira standard" which i dont think means anything.)

I know I'm a born cynic, but my gut tells me there's more to this that they're not telling us.  This business about the baffles being the wrong way is another thing that makes me wonder.  If you look at how the machine is in the video, with the control panel at the side, thats not the way they mount them in vans in their website pictures.  It looks like they normally mount them with the control panel facing the back.

Also, maybe an obvious question, but why did they only test a 650litre system and not a 1,000L system?

It could all be perfectly explainable, but to me, just too many unanswered questions and vague details.  Compare that to ionics website where they show everything and all of the data including notes about the tests that were done, what exact speeds etc and have an actual certificate to show the speed

jonisondell

Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 11:20:53 pm »
that test did not fool me either..

There wasnt any scientific test data on that film. Why perform a test and dont show any data of any kind the only indication was time code. frame number, im sure it was left out.
what was the speed of the test 5 10 20 30 who knows?

did you notice the lid flying off, at the the point of impact, im sure this was left loose helping dissapate the energy.

They say it was tested @30 but vans do go faster than that, whats it like at 40 50 ect??

The most important fact was the tank full of water??

pretty pointles in my opinion, you perform a safety test at worst possible case 70 min. Tyre manufactures dont test at 30 mph they over rate their tyres at 130max

i dont think they have really thought about this test logically, i think they wanted to look pretty on their website just dont drive over 30 or youve had it...well it might put out any fire in a crash

ftp

  • Posts: 4694
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2009, 07:37:05 am »
To be honest, the vidio has put me off buying a Brodex system - having seen how much the plastic tank deformed under mild? impact i think i would want a cage around an upright system like that.

Pittmonkey

  • Posts: 1097
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2009, 07:56:25 am »
Some of the posters on this thread had the oportunity to ask these questions at the show, did anyone ask?
'Success is buried in the garden of failure'

dd

  • Posts: 2623
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 09:29:33 am »
I know on Tucker sytems (Aquafactors) the tank baffles are a honeycombe pattern. I just assumed other tanks were baffled in a similar way. Did not know some tanks were only baffled in one direction. This does not seem the best way to design them.

I'm baffled!

jonisondell

Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 10:10:32 am »
Some of the posters on this thread had the oportunity to ask these questions at the show, did anyone ask?

what do you think they would say, mmm sorry tank half empty and tested at 20 instead of 30...

dont need to ask them as im not interested in any of their products, i think all of these manufactures are very lucky to be selling these systems, fool and money easerly parted
you could put together a system for a fraction of the price, i saw one on ebay second hand 3.5k new 5k, five grand you could go diy and buy the van for that.
tank ro di pump its not difficult....

Glyn H

Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 10:31:28 am »
Quote
i think all of these manufactures are very lucky to be selling these systems

I dont think we at Omnipole or for that matter Ionics (OTT) are very lucky to be selling systems.
The first three years of trying to sell systems was spent touring the UK convincing window cleaners that windows could be cleaned with wfp.

Noboby believed that pure water and a pole could possibly clean windows.

Captain Scarlet

  • Posts: 3087
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 02:58:34 pm »
Unless Brodex bring out something decent I wont touch their stuff with a barge pole, they are a very poor company. I dont trust them, look at how they treated the hot water subject, until they got their own system, they are misleading.
Ffenest ( est 2007 ) is a fully insured premium quality window cleaning service based at Llandderfel near Bala. All our work is guaranteed, rain or shine, year round.

Window Washers

  • Posts: 9036
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 03:24:24 pm »
Quote
i think all of these manufactures are very lucky to be selling these systems

I dont think we at Omnipole or for that matter Ionics (OTT) are very lucky to be selling systems.
The first three years of trying to sell systems was spent touring the UK convincing window cleaners that windows could be cleaned with wfp.

Noboby believed that pure water and a pole could possibly clean windows.
For that everyone really has to thank you both ;), So thank you  ;D
If your not willing to learn, No one can help you, If you are determined to learn, No one can stop you ;)

jonisondell

Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 04:04:01 pm »
hi glyn
anybody who magages to sell a 1000lts system for 5k very lucky, diy 1.3k.

if they were engineered  to pass a crash test worst case @ 70mph i could justify the 3.7k extra.

but all you get is a pretty looking red tank, which the manufactur says will be ok @30 (looks suspect) above that youve had it.

but i must say their sales and marketing 10/10, but didnt fool me.


Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7744
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2009, 04:26:06 pm »
To be honest, the vidio has put me off buying a Brodex system - having seen how much the plastic tank deformed under mild? impact i think i would want a cage around an upright system like that.

I was actually very interested in how well the plastic tank absorbed the energy and then released it safely. I personally thought that the structure of the tank performed better than the cage surrounding the tank on the Ionics crash test. Metal is poor at absorbing and then releasing energy without damage. This is clearly illustrated if you look closely at Ionics various tests. In their 30mph crash test where the van hits a solid object the metal cage is less deformed than their Hyper-G sled test at the same speed. This is because in the crash-test the van's very expensive crash absorption areas have helped to deal with a lot of the stress. In the Hyper-G sled test (similar to the MIRA test) the cage is very deformed due to the fact that the cage has had to absorb all of the stress. I think I would rather rely on the plastic Brodex tank as ultimately all it would do is split and release water whereas the Ionics would split and let the whole tank through. I have to say though that for this to happen in both cases the front end of the van would be so damaged that the driver will probably have been killed anyway.

I do personally feel that the Ionics clamping method is stronger than the Brodex system and this is another issue entirely.


Brodex

  • Posts: 11
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2009, 11:01:18 am »
First of all, a big apology to all of you. We have made the mistake of rushing things here, as we were too keen to get things up and running before the Cleaning Show.

We appreciate, now, that displaying the video without fully explaining it, has only led to confusion, and we would like to put a few things straight.

To start with a simple matter, we can assure you that the lid was certainly on tight. We have no interest in, nor cannot hope to benefit by falsifying these results.

The frame of the lid is actually cracked and broken where the lid burst. Of course we still have the machine and vehicle, which can be inspected or photographed as required.

We went to a Ministry of Defence Establishment to obtain a trustworthy validation. They confiscated our mobile phones and wouldn’t let us use our own cameras or videos. There’s no way that they would let us “fix” the result, and there’s no way we would want to falsify the outcome, as this is your safety and our reputation on the line.

Nobody does crash testing at 70mph as they are deemed to be pretty well fatal at dead stop.

Obviously we did not choose the Standards, but were guided by MIRA. It was carried out according to what is dictated to them by ECE Regulation 17, at speeds specified in European Frontal Crashworthiness Directive 96/79/EC. We’ve slowed it down so that you can see what’s happening!

Obviously, crash test data is by its very nature extremely complex and needs a trained eye to interpret, but we will do now what we should have done from the start: post the MIRA Report Summary on our website.

Simply then, to avoid any further confusion: The test was carried out at 34mph, the European Standard (Ionics is at 30mph, the American Standard) it is on a HyGe sled, which means that it is static, on rails, but simulates a head-on collision. This is by means of an underground ram impacting directly upon the chassis, thus transmitting the full 30mph energy to the tankmount, rather than having to factor in the enormous range of shock-absorption introduced by various van crumple-zones! Unfortunately for the dramatic aspect, all that you appear to see is it travelling backwards!

But, by taking crumple-zones out of the equation, we are effectively testing the integrity of tank and mount at force levels which may occur in collisions of much greater speed!

The choice of the 650 Litre system seems logical, as it is far and away our best-seller, but has the same mounting structure as the 1000. We thought that this was most indicative of our range and would be best appreciated by the 1500+ users out there.


With regard to the baffles, the baffle orientation has nothing to do with the direction of travel of the vehicle. We fit our systems in either direction, according to van size and customer requirements. As our tanks are approximately twice as long as they are wide, the baffle is designed to halve the travel of water in the longest direction. The “sloshing” in the longer direction is what builds up dangerous impetus. Halving this distance, by use of a baffle, is what equals out the force in all directions.

As for retro-fit, we are always happy to advise anybody who contacts us, on the best way to fit and use a Brodex system.

Thank you, Alex, you seem to be the only one who understands the use of the HyGe sled, and who fully appreciates the importance of monocoque deformation during an impact. This was key to the success of our mounted system.

We are surprised and a little disappointed that our voluntary effort and investment in your safety has met with such scepticism. We had a resounding success with our crash testing, but we have not failed to learn and respond. Whilst we are confident that our systems are entirely safe, we have nevertheless noted all of the stress points and adjusted the mounting already, so that we will perform even better in the future.

Thank you for you continued interest and, if there is anything else you need to know, please feel free to contact me.

Cheers,
Daniel

jonisondell

Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 12:28:46 pm »
1) We have no interest in, nor cannot hope to benefit by falsifying these results.

a bit confusing statment, would you sell more systems if it passes or less if it failed?

2) Nobody does crash testing at 70mph as they are deemed to be pretty well fatal at dead stop?

you cannot say a crash at 40, 50, 60, 70 is fatal,  but does the tank bolted to floor between the range of 30 to 70mph?? im sure airbags have greatly improved suvival rates.

At what crash speed does the tank come crashing through the windscreen? 35, 36, 40, 50, 60 70?

3) when safety rating any component its got to be fit for purpose for the end user to use within the used speed range.

tyre manunfacures know the speed range is 0 - 70mph they over engineer their products.
The lowest speed rating tyre is L 75mph.


a very good responce but im just not convinced.
im going to stick with my low centre of gravity, lay flat tank with large straps.




drwindows

  • Posts: 258
Re: Question about Brodex Crash test
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 02:10:49 pm »
Quote
The choice of the 650 Litre system seems logical, as it is far and away our best-seller, but has the same mounting structure as the 1000. We thought that this was most indicative of our range and would be best appreciated by the 1500+ users out there.

Sorry but I totally disagree.

Saying "it has the same mounting structure" means nothing.  Its a bigger, heavier tank and the strains on it will be MUCH bigger.

Sorry to be a cynic again, but anyone could say you didnt test a 1,000L machine because you were afraid it wouldn't pass.

Quote
We are surprised and a little disappointed that our voluntary effort and investment in your safety has met with such scepticism

Ha ha good comment.  So you welcomed and congratulated ionics when they did theirs (and yours) then?  I don't think so.