[NWH]

As soon as it`s mixed with the cold nothing,pre heating the water and insulating the tank to keep it warm is a waste of time to get hot water you need to put the water through a heat exchanger for what we want it for,after all it does have to travel through 100 meters of hose so you need constant hot upon hot in the hose to see the difference at the brush.I would say even if you put very hot water in your tank and how you would do that in volume i wouldn`t know,by the time it got through all the plumbing in the system you`d be lucky if it was warm.

[Nathanael Jones]

If you filled with hot in the morning and used a heat exchanger from the vehicles engine to maintain the heat (So long as you travelled a bit between jobs) then you'd have a hot system without a heater. Nothing beats "on demand" heat tho!

[geefree]

I think its more to do with how some people view diy set ups...

like they are sad because its the cheaper option... i remember this type of discussion with the wfp system... and people totally against the diy system..... mainly because they had forked out thousands for a ready made system...

i think the same applies here.

what people have to realise is.... we all cannot afford ready made systems, so people will always strive to do the best they can ... making a system themselves...

in my eyes that is something to commend , someone using inituitive.... to save money and move forward...

and as long as things are done correctly, i dont think spending £200 on a hot water system is wrong.....

and at that price i dont even think that is cheap either....

for hot water in a van.

[NWH]

Gazza you will be commended for doing it yourself but if anything goes wrong those people will be the first to call you an idiot.

[Jeff Brimble]

Cheapest/easiest would be a propane/butane gas ring and a large saucepan, mix 50/50 approx with cold water. But I guess thats too simple ?

Where can I find a 400Litre saucepan?

Actually - if you had a 5 litre saucepan and boiled it to nearly 100 degrees C and poured it in your tank how many degrees would that raise the temperature of the whole lot?

50/50 produces a temrature thats warm/hot to drink from boiling water, try some in a glass or cup, so if you use a 20L container you only need 10L hot . Van mounts excluded.

[chrisyg]

allways TWO sides to the arguement

it seems that a fair few are very happy with the L 5 it heats water and the heater ( or the type of heater ) is used on boats, Campervans and hunting cabins all over the world, we have a Health and safety bloke ( David slater  ) who has done safety course after safety course, he has the credentials to prove he knows what he is on about, he uses the heater and is happy with the safety of it
i keep on thinking they are used in campervans ( R.V's in the USA ) and boats and whilst people can find on u-tube videos of fires with them in, i can find video's of a house fire, doesnt mean to say i live without heat )

now the other side is NWH ( and his mate who just likes to post to cause a argument ) , now NWH has paid 2.5 K for a heater, he spoke to a guy in he pub, a fireman and a gas fitter ( correct me if i am wrong ) and decided it was too dangerous

is it safe ? ? ? ? i guess the 2 sides of the arguement will never agree, its all about a informed choice isnt it

There is no argument, it’s just a few trying to justify that the L5 which cost £200 and is designed for a different purpose, is just as good and safe as an of the shelf heater for window cleaning that cost £2’500 plus.

If NWH spoke to fireman and a gas fitter they are both more qualified on the subject than David Slater who has apparently done H&S courses and seemed to have missed the whole point of H&S.

People are using these L5 not based on any informed choice, it’s based on a money choice.

Or to prove my point if both types of heater cost the same which one would you choose?

Your suppose to be in business to make money, even if you saved for a year for a proper heater it less than £7 a day, if that’s to much do it over 2 years at less than £3.50 a day, that’s where you should be making your saving.

Big upside is that you will most probably end up with a viable business to sell, if ever you wanted to.

I think you rubbish David Slater too much for what its worth.

He is the only one that actually got insured for his L5 usage (at least he claims, and i dont think he of all people would exaggerate that). Many others may claim to be covered, but to what extent? Maybe just carrying a LPG cannister, but not for full blown usage inside the van.

I asked this in a thread before hand, SO many people claim to use these, but none could say for sure they had it written into their policy they can use it fully covered.

One thing Mr Slater used (since his van has been stolen) is an approved refillable cannister, for vehicle usage, i dont see anyone else claiming that.

One thing is for sure, many people are going round with death trap DIY wfp systems not properly bolted in (using a few straps or ROPE!!!), overloading their vans, puting poles into the cabin area etc etc.... IMO just as dangerous, as you are far more likely to get involved in a road accident - you only need someone to step into the road, or brake hard in front of you..

Expect to see that tank, pole come flying past or even thru you....

Personally, besides on cost of the setup - gas is cheaper than diesel for a running cost - id prefer to use gas. No difference to using it my car... except i have to pay for a conversion so im sticking to petrol, but if i had a choice and money was no problem.. id gas my car anyday, as it would be cheaper to run.

But everyone has their preference.

FYI - Mr Slater went through the phone book basically, rang all the departments necessary - who all concluded, if installed properly, wouldn't pose a significant risk than any other set up. He documented his research, and advised others to do their own - i wonder how many L5 users have really done that.. not many.

[matt]

If NWH spoke to fireman and a gas fitter they are both more qualified on the subject than David Slater who has apparently done H&S courses and seemed to have missed the whole point of H&S.

i know a few firemen and i know a number of gas fitters ( who i have worked with in the past )

do i think they would be more qualified about the H&S risks of a  gas heater over a guy who has the qualifications and has done the research into them ( David Slater )

i honestly belive that Davids words on the subject carry a little more expertise

[williamx]

The cheapest method for diy hot water is fit a Immersion heater element £16.65 plus vat from selco and a power pack from Northern Tools for £63.24 http://www.northerntooluk.com/products.asp?partno=2354E and a piece is electrical cable and plug.

Just heat the water up first thing in the morning and use the power pack when the water gets to cold.

Total cost £88

[Nathanael Jones]

I was talking to John Hurlbert (The US distributor of the L5) recently. They are currently in talks with a UK based WFP supplier (He wouldn't tell me which one!) to produce a slightly modified version of the L5 specifically for window cleaning use. The new unit will carry a CE mark, will have a more accurate flow switch enabling it to work at lower flow rates, and will have a flue gatherer & connector on top so it can be connected to a standard size boiler flue & roof vent. Essentially though the basic workings and components of the L5 will remain unchanged,.. they are up to CE mark standards already he says.

A major WFP retailer here would have had to do their research before considering this approach,... so when it does become available this way, I'm sure a lot of the ppl who currently doubt the safety of gas heaters will be silenced.

ConceptO2's hot systems are all gas powered too you know,...

[ftp]

Something to think about there.
My concern would be algae and more serious bugs that might thrive in a tank of warm water all day. I think the water would have to be heated to a point to kill them off. A heater makes more sense to me. I think there is a lot of scaremainering going on by the guys who have parted with the £3000 for their fitted systems. Seems NWH wasn't very strong when it comes down to diy and got scared witless after a chat with KevR.
Plenty of capable diyers can build a perfectly adequate system should they choose to.

[matt]

The cheapest method for diy hot water is fit a Immersion heater element £16.65 plus vat from selco and a power pack from Northern Tools for £63.24 http://www.northerntooluk.com/products.asp?partno=2354E and a piece is electrical cable and plug.

Just heat the water up first thing in the morning and use the power pack when the water gets to cold.

Total cost £88

this was allways my first choice, insulate the van tank ( as your home hot water cylinder is ) and then run 1 or 2 Immersion heater element into the tank and heat in the morning for a while

we have our hot water being heated 2 hours in the morning and i think its about 2 hours in the evening and we ALLWAYS have hot water

the only downside is the Immersion heaters are not very cost effective in the running costs

[Oakley Windows]

the only downside is the Immersion heaters are not very cost effective in the running costs

That is a downside, not £3,000 downside admittedly, still something that needs to be considered.

This method is deffo worth further  investigation.

[matt]

I was talking to John Hurlbert (The US distributor of the L5) recently. They are currently in talks with a UK based WFP supplier (He wouldn't tell me which one!) to produce a slightly modified version of the L5 specifically for window cleaning use. The new unit will carry a CE mark, will have a more accurate flow switch enabling it to work at lower flow rates, and will have a flue gatherer & connector on top so it can be connected to a standard size boiler flue & roof vent. Essentially though the basic workings and components of the L5 will remain unchanged,.. they are up to CE mark standards already he says.

A major WFP retailer here would have had to do their research before considering this approach,... so when it does become available this way, I'm sure a lot of the ppl who currently doubt the safety of gas heaters will be silenced.

ConceptO2's hot systems are all gas powered too you know,...

interesting, though i somewhat think the price just might increase to around the 500 quid mark

[Nathanael Jones]

Yep,.. prices are sure to rise,.. but still a lot less than other options I imagine!

[Count Phil]

The concept 2o is just a gas water heater like the l5, just a bit bigger and it costs about 400 quid.
Same.

It also requires 2.5 ltr a minutee to fire up. L5 about 1-1.5ltres. Take your pick.

The concept one requires the spare wheel section to be converted into a gas tank (I had a quote and in depth conversation with them), thats at the back of my vehicle. Just where it would get hit. how is that safer than having a small cannister in the van?

I don't get the safety issue. If you went to get a calor gas refill you'd stick it in your boot? You ain't gonna panic are you? If you went camping you'd have one to cook and drive it in the car!

L5 is fine and cheap.

[Oakley Windows]

That doesnt mean that other options need be ruled out.

If thats the case then go out and buy the most expensive van/WFP setup/Accountant/Kit/uniform etc etc, the list is endless, after all, its gonna be repaid over any number of years so price obviously bears no influence on the decision.

Or isnt economics worth considering?

I bet you weigh up the odds when you go out shopping in town.

Matt

[macmac]

Ewan, which hot system do you have?
What system do you run & is the tank security crash tested?

Tony

[chrisyg]

Think a lot of people forget about the risk and rewards, if you spend £2’500 - £3’000 on a wfp heater it’s a very low risk when you spread the cost over a few years or even over a year!

If a hot system makes you an extra £2’500 - £3’000 a year or just an extra £800 -£1’000 over 3 years it would have paid for itself.

Start doing the numbers on making a profit with the system, and you would think its pointless opting for anything else. (If you have done your numbers correctly!) You would understand what I mean.


You can do the same calculation with the cost of the L5, but you can’t disregard H&S issue, which in my opinion is a potential huge risk as is just not worth it for the small amount of saving you can make using the L5.

Ok, so your telling us you have an IONICS set up which has been crash tested for safety? or do you have another make or DIY in your van? If not the IONICS system, are any of the others crash tested for road worthiness?

I think not, so basically we should all be buying IONICS purely on safety in your argument.

edit, oops if only i had read macmac™ 's reply, but at least im not the only one thinking that..

[ftp]

Ewan, which hot system do you have?
What system do you run & is the tank security crash tested?

Tony

I would guess it's a ladder and a bucket system with bungie straps. 

[chrisyg]

If NWH spoke to fireman and a gas fitter they are both more qualified on the subject than David Slater who has apparently done H&S courses and seemed to have missed the whole point of H&S.

i know a few firemen and i know a number of gas fitters ( who i have worked with in the past )

do i think they would be more qualified about the H&S risks of a  gas heater over a guy who has the qualifications and has done the research into them ( David Slater )

i honestly belive that Davids words on the subject carry a little more expertise

Regardless of Davids "credentials" he has just used his knowledge, to phone the relevant bodies to clarify if it is safe to use the L5 or a system very similar with LPG.

Experts have told him there is no issues, providing he follows requirements..

Now, i dont say for one minute for you to believe all that David has advised, im saying that everyone using these should actually go and do the research for themselves, to be fully clarified on the subject and aware of the requirements in using these heater in road going unattended vehicles.

Really that should extend to any method.. be it electrical element or diesel heater.. Have the companies that fix these into your vans actually given you a document relating to all the H&S regulations and requirements? Or are you just taking THEIR word for it? As Ewan has said "you can’t disregard H&S issue, which in my opinion is a potential huge risk".