[gerard mcmanus]

Ok firstly I will admit WFP is by far a better meathod than trad, when it come to safety and speed. Some might say that there is a lower quality than trad but if the customer is still happy...

What I want to talk about is, the cons. Not just to slag it off, but I am a trad window cleaner that would change tommorow if it was all rosey and easy.

But the truth is it is not, yeah its faster but you will have to do more to cover the extra epenses that you will encur.

Thats really what I want to talk about, window cleaning is a fairly low overhead business. But that changes with WFP's.

Instead of using estates or berlingo's we are now seeing many using the likes of renault traffics - so there is the cost of the van extra road tax petrol etc not taking into account the amount of petrol a van must use to carry 800 litres of water.

Then there is the straight cost of water, and if you dont live is a house with a garrage, the rental of a garage with a water supply. Thats before you talk about the cost of some of these systems.

Most are actually charging reasonable prices, but I think that the likes of ionic systems, are very over priced. I would love to know what the markup is on these things.

Is the only real benefit to WFP the safety aspect, and I dont mean that this is a little thing. If its the only benifit I would still say its worth concidering.

What I mean is when you take in all the extra cost, including time spent on fill up the system and pay for a everything else, do you make any more money really than a trad window cleaner. Not many people will have to investement to but the 5 - 10k ionic systems so are paying them up, at £200pcm or so.

Then you are going to have to do more customers to see the benifit, so more petrol again and more time and money marketing for the extra customers.

thats my rant for today,

I know every WFP user is going to defend there judgement here, and I think you are right to invest in these systems, safety should always be at the top of the list.

Thanks for listening

gerard 

[trike]

ill start with safety first,feet on the floor,will never fall from a ladder and die,set up can be exspensive,i bourght a erde traile,250lt tank ,pump,battery,fuse box,switch,pole and brush,300quid the lot.after climbing ladders for 20years time for a change,have never looked back,i can do all my work in half the time.all i have to change is my resin every three months.it works for me set up and everything else isnt that exspensive,but every one will be different bigger set ups ect.all my custies happy,getting more work all the time,if you try it,you may never climb ladder again.

[mark dew]

A good 80%+ of my customers have conservatories and when i was trad i used to rue the untapped income, cos i couldn't reach them.
WIth wfp each window above the conservatory was an extra quid. For little more expense.
I agree it is more expensive with running a vehicle and other expenses, but after a while any extra cost is recouped with more work that you can fit in a day.
It also allows you to go for higher end work which would not be possible with a ladder.

[Alex Gardiner]

You are right it is a lot of hassle and expense, which if you do not want then it is best to steer clear.

The 'Pros' in many peoples opinion do outweigh the hassle and expense though, such as:

Work faster (between 25-100% faster)
Access more windows (over roofs, 25ft+ high, etc)
Work safely

If the above 'Pros' are not going to affect the type of round you have then you can save yourself the hassle and stick to traditional - lots still do.

[Tosh]

Gerard,

Why don't you kit yourself out with a backpack system for around the £500 mark?

It's a cheap way of dipping your toe into the WFP pool!

[cat9921]

Ok firstly I will admit WFP is by far a better meathod than trad, when it come to safety and speed. Some might say that there is a lower quality than trad but if the customer is still happy...

What I want to talk about is, the cons. Not just to slag it off, but I am a trad window cleaner that would change tommorow if it was all rosey and easy.

But the truth is it is not, yeah its faster but you will have to do more to cover the extra epenses that you will encur.

Thats really what I want to talk about, window cleaning is a fairly low overhead business. But that changes with WFP's.

Instead of using estates or berlingo's we are now seeing many using the likes of renault traffics - so there is the cost of the van extra road tax petrol etc not taking into account the amount of petrol a van must use to carry 800 litres of water.

Then there is the straight cost of water, and if you dont live is a house with a garrage, the rental of a garage with a water supply. Thats before you talk about the cost of some of these systems.

Most are actually charging reasonable prices, but I think that the likes of ionic systems, are very over priced. I would love to know what the markup is on these things.

Is the only real benefit to WFP the safety aspect, and I dont mean that this is a little thing. If its the only benifit I would still say its worth concidering.

What I mean is when you take in all the extra cost, including time spent on fill up the system and pay for a everything else, do you make any more money really than a trad window cleaner. Not many people will have to investement to but the 5 - 10k ionic systems so are paying them up, at £200pcm or so.

Then you are going to have to do more customers to see the benifit, so more petrol again and more time and money marketing for the extra customers.

thats my rant for today,

I know every WFP user is going to defend there judgement here, and I think you are right to invest in these systems, safety should always be at the top of the list.

Thanks for listening

gerard 

A lot of good points you make gerard . If you read any of my post I never say one is better than the other because each one has its strengths and weaknesses, Trad is of course the best for over heads and simplicity,, Wfp is more expensive.. But in saying that there are ways to keep the cost down 

I am 90 % WFP and 10 % trad

But I find trad harder now than Wfp and I am not just saying that.. I need both and both are good..

I have picked up work that I could not do with trad,  my only wish is that I did this sooner

But if you are happy with trad then stay with it mate 

[Tim82]

 The way i see it, earning double in half the time and being less tired makes the extra work worth it.

[trike]

i have just came back from priceing a job,theres no way i would of concidered using ladders,three floors,got the job,every 6weeks,happy days

[NWH]

Nearly all my work is done WFP but like many the odd job is done trad and to be honest i feel like it slows me down big time although i`m very quick trad.It`s also flippin hard work,you don`t realise how hard until you`ve been poleing for about 3-4 days solid and then have to get the ladders out,i do like blading but only things like shops or the odd house.The more you use WFP the more you dislike ladders,if i had to go back to ladders fulltime i don`t know what i`d do.

[monkeyboy950]

I started off with back pack,with the intention of doing tops waterfed and bottoms trad,after 3 days i thought sod it waterfed all the way,ihad a van with 600 tank i now have trailer with 400 tank,i can easily clear £200 quid a day,half 8 to half 3 or 4,its a hassle to start and no plenty who sold there back pacs and that after a short time but i perserverd and havent looked back

[Mike 108]

I’ve only been using WFP for 12 months, but I couldn’t agree more with NWH - ‘The more you use WFP the more you dislike ladders’.

Once you start having trouble with your knees, you’ll have no choice anyway!

You can easily operate a 175/250 litre set-up from the back of an MPV with the rear seats taken out. That still leaves 4/5 seats – and if you plan it properly you can get everything out and the rear seats back in, in about 20 mins.

All the gear (new) ( but without a RO unit) can be bought for about £750. That’s only £15 a week for a year (one extra job per week)

Mike

[Sir Squeaky]

Yes, I've had numerous system failures which have cost me time and money.

You sort one thing out and something else packs up.

Still, I put up with it because the job is so much easier.

[Paul Coleman]

Ok firstly I will admit WFP is by far a better meathod than trad, when it come to safety and speed. Some might say that there is a lower quality than trad but if the customer is still happy...

What I want to talk about is, the cons. Not just to slag it off, but I am a trad window cleaner that would change tommorow if it was all rosey and easy.

But the truth is it is not, yeah its faster but you will have to do more to cover the extra epenses that you will encur.

Thats really what I want to talk about, window cleaning is a fairly low overhead business. But that changes with WFP's.

Instead of using estates or berlingo's we are now seeing many using the likes of renault traffics - so there is the cost of the van extra road tax petrol etc not taking into account the amount of petrol a van must use to carry 800 litres of water.

Then there is the straight cost of water, and if you dont live is a house with a garrage, the rental of a garage with a water supply. Thats before you talk about the cost of some of these systems.

Most are actually charging reasonable prices, but I think that the likes of ionic systems, are very over priced. I would love to know what the markup is on these things.

Is the only real benefit to WFP the safety aspect, and I dont mean that this is a little thing. If its the only benifit I would still say its worth concidering.

What I mean is when you take in all the extra cost, including time spent on fill up the system and pay for a everything else, do you make any more money really than a trad window cleaner. Not many people will have to investement to but the 5 - 10k ionic systems so are paying them up, at £200pcm or so.

Then you are going to have to do more customers to see the benifit, so more petrol again and more time and money marketing for the extra customers.

thats my rant for today,

I know every WFP user is going to defend there judgement here, and I think you are right to invest in these systems, safety should always be at the top of the list.

Thanks for listening

gerard 

Yes the overheads are a lot higher (though tax deductibility helps a lot).  However, I can work a lot faster as you say.  The extra work I can do makes the higher overheads look very acceptable.  What it's really about is profit margin.  Is my profit margin higher with WFP or not?  You bet it is !!

[NWH]

Even if WFP were to cost you on average £100 a week to run which it dosen`t no where near,you would still dwarf trad earnings.This can you earn more WFP debate is pointless to be honest,there is no comparison at all when it comes to earnings when comparing trad to WFP,it`s a bit like saying if i cycle to scotland and you drive do you think i have any chance in beating you there,you have no chance.

[Oakley Windows]

The amount of work WFP I turn out now, 8 months down the line, is REALLY REALLY beginning to astonish me.

In 2 days this week (it rained yesterday) Ive done what Id have done a week off the ladder.

My overheads by comparison are EASILY covered by far.

Matt

[ftp]

Let's just say in two hard days this week (hard but no longer than eight hours each) i have earnt more than my brother-in-law earns on nights in a bed factory on a full week. I don't know what trad cleaners earn but i'm pretty happy with my turnover compaired to hours worked. You can't really go by peoples earnings on this forum because some are so inflated and it would vary from area to area. Try and latch on with someone in your area for a few hours and work out if it's worth the investment. If you are going to go with something like an Ionics system with a new van then obviously you will need a substantial amount of work to get a good profit.

[Feen]

Gerard, I use a backpack and it suits my needs. I have an extension tube so if I'm on a street or at a big house I sit the backpack down. Don't have to carry it all day. If things are fiddly, like gardens, I carry it. I view myself as a window cleaner, not a wfp cleaner nor a trad cleaner. I clean windows how I thinks suits the situation and myself best. I probably do 90% wfp and there is no doubt it quicker and earns more. If it wasn't for wfp, I wouldn't do it simply because I couldn't earn the hourly rate I do. Sure the overheads are higher, but once set-up they shouldn't be prohibitive. I have bought back packs, a fairly decent pole, a few brushes and DI vessel. I have to replace the resin and my pole won't last for ever, but I haven't bought a van dedicated solely to wfp and all the costs associated to that. Suits me. Not for everyone I know. I look on it as a compromise. I don't want to employ people and have a business with a huge turnover etc. I am happy working myself and earning enough.
Waffle over

[elite mike]

Gerard, I use a backpack and it suits my needs. I have an extension tube so if I'm on a street or at a big house I sit the backpack down. Don't have to carry it all day. If things are fiddly, like gardens, I carry it. I view myself as a window cleaner, not a wfp cleaner nor a trad cleaner. I clean windows how I thinks suits the situation and myself best. I probably do 90% wfp and there is no doubt it quicker and earns more. If it wasn't for wfp, I wouldn't do it simply because I couldn't earn the hourly rate I do. Sure the overheads are higher, but once set-up they shouldn't be prohibitive. I have bought back packs, a fairly decent pole, a few brushes and DI vessel. I have to replace the resin and my pole won't last for ever, but I haven't bought a van dedicated solely to wfp and all the costs associated to that. Suits me. Not for everyone I know. I look on it as a compromise. I don't want to employ people and have a business with a huge turnover etc. I am happy working myself and earning enough.
Waffle over

summed it up ,nice one feen