[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys,

Is the cleaning pie a true law?

i.e it can be used to predict results  , OR is it a psuedo law which is just manipulated to fit real life experience and is changed to suit .

As the number of cleaning methods increases and and manufacturers claims increase with them is there a clear pattern ?

Most CC's would say higher heat reduces cleaning time ,  as does greater agitation.

However with Host, say,  then agitation and time and are the most important factors.

As a really safe option , chemically , why not very hot water , lots of agitation and a tiny amount of chemicals to aide wetting.

It seems some  modern methods are moving away from the cleaning pie predictions Or are they ?

Cheers,

Doug

[Ken Wainwright]

You're getting a bit deep Doug

My view of the cleaning pie is that it's an excellent graphic tool to help the less, and sometimes more, experienced technician. You start off with the pie's sectors for Time, Agitation, Chemical and Temperature all being equal. If, for whatever reason, it is felt necessary to reduce/remove one sector, eg the Agitation on a Berber, you make it up with something else. In this instance it would be dwell time as Heat or a more aggressive Chemical could promote cellulosic browning.

Without that little picture of a pie in my head, along with the acronym TACT, it would make a recall of the required variation to procedure more difficult.

So Doug, to answer your question, I regard the pie as a pseudo law which is just manipulated to fit real life experience and is changed to suit.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[gwrightson]

Can any one tell me if this forum has been given the "plain english award"
 often seen on offical documents etc. or has it yet to attain this respect 
  geoff

[Mike Halliday]

TACT  is a useless acronym used by pseudo cleaning machines to explain how they clean a carpet. if it was replaced with CHEAT then there weakness would be visable for all to see!

if you follow the cleaning Pie then by using TACT  then no actual cleaning takes place until the E is added ( making CHEAT ) Chemical-Heat-Extraction-Agitation-Time

all the bonnet cleaners will tell you that they use extra agitation to make up for the lack of the other ingrediants, but they all fall down when you ask about the Extraction

bonnets use  Absorbtion which is a very poor methods of extraction.

Mike

[conallon]

Spring his here 

[Ken Wainwright]

Mike to the rescue again

Mike has made a vital observation. Perhaps we shouldn't call it the Cleaning Pie, but the Preparation Pie. Or add an E as Mike suggests for Extraction.

Safe and speedy recovery
Ken

[Doug Holloway]

Hi,

So HWE with a truckmount is the best then?

Cheers,

Doug

P.s Geoff , they were considering us ,  but the lack of punctuation let us down

[Ian Gourlay]

I do not care if it is a load of rubbish or not, but it does help to illustrate process.

In all management books you have these pie charts.

First one I came across was somthing about Group Needs Individual Needs etc

Then there was another on why people work

Then there was a sales pie chart and they just go on and on and fill pages of print.

Thank goiodness for internet we do not have to chop down trees.

[Mike Halliday]

Ken we can't call it the 'preperation pie' because we'd have to put a 'V' in the acronym, and then it would't make a word :

Mike

[Doug Holloway]

Ian,

When I attended  these courses years ago I found all this psuedo science relating to sales / marketing / management really boring.

For example the reason people work is to earn money and keep them out of the pub , you don't need a chart for this

Cheers,

Doug

[Big_Fish]

Would that be the kind of pub that sells real ale and PIE & mash?

[woodman]

It doesn't matter what system you use the cleaning pie or chemistry of cleaning will always apply in the form of TACT.

Extraction takes place in all forms of carpt cleaning in one form or another, whether you have a super dooper suck everything out,high temperature trunk mount or a pad system,you are all operating from the chart even if you do not realise it.

High heat,more agitation, more time etc are all part of the pie so in reducing the chemical and raising the temperature you are using the chart correctly.Of course you can not use high temperature on all carpets so you would have to reduce this on occasion ( cleaning saxony cut piles) and raise the chemical or agitation or time.

Of course Mike is just trying to be controversial again by suggesting that all pad cleaning systems are bogus.

Dry Fusion and Texatherm are not Bonnet cleaning systems and carry out all operations of the chart (including extraction) to a very high standard if used correctly.

[Mike Halliday]

I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just saying that absorbtion is not an effective method of extraction

Mike

Ps; I don't like Host either

[paul@ctcs]

Not knocking pad systems as they have there place and I use them for commercial maintenance, although saying that I know where Mike is coming from.
 If a typically soiled comercial carpet was cleaned using any type of pad cleaning system it would aesthetically look as good as (IMO) extraction cleaning.
But, If the same carpet was then cleaned using HWE it would no doubt remove a huge amount of soiling untouched by the pad system.
 This is why I prefer to have at least one Deep clean per annum with my commercial maintenance programmes.

Paul

[Doug Holloway]

Woodman,

TACT was obviously developed for HWE where it applies quite accurately but it only really works on  comparing systems if you introduce a fifth variable called results(R).

TRACT
Where for example we compare HWE and DF where R is greater for HWE.

Also surely DF and Texatherm are bonnett derived ,if up market versions.

Cheers,

Doug

[Derek]

Doug

TACT can be used in other activities too.

Consider gardening for a moment....

Temperature...the sun

Agitation... tilling the soil

Chemical... fertiliser

Time.. this ones obvious

Cheers 
Derek

[Ed Valentine]

This particular subject is one that has continual debate. And, yes, all the elements listed above are very important and certainly, a part of the pie.

However, I would have to suggest from experience that "EXTRACTION"--dry or wet-- (the elimination of soil) has to be the primary element setting securely on top of the triangle. After all once we we desolve all the dirt from whatever process, we must achieve the most through and clean extraction possible to finally void the carpet of debris.

Good Fortune to all;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.