[Sanity]

Thanx for your approval... :  But please, before you go getting your knickers in a twist, try to read the thread.  Neither WCE nor I have mentioned ANY definite content at all.  So to critisise us regarding 'not addressing issues' is strange to say the least...Even WE do not know what sort of content will be included at this point.  this will be decided AFTER we decide what the first issues theme will be, and will be decided by the editorial team / editor after we have sent for and recieved articles back from designated volunteer contributors.

As we are at the basic design stage at the moment, if you have any experience of desk-top publishing, graphic design, typography etc please feel free to give us some pointers.

The mock-up is simply a design layout using Jabberwocky text.  This text is jibberish used to infill the text boxes in a realistic manner.

The design is currently being worked upon by myself.  It consists of a few colour swatches, a few text boxes filled with text,  font samples, different font sizes, mock adverts (for size / placement assistance).

Some made up article titles have been used simply to test placement / text size, text style, colour combinations.  they DO NOT reflect in any way what may or may not be included in the magazine.

If you would like to see the mockup, and can accept a 15mb .pdf via e-mail I will be happy to send you a copy.  Again, be aware that everything in it so far is simply just to fill spaces.  The design and layout of image boxes and text boxes will change right up to the print deadline.

We are concentrating on this for now as once this is in place and decided upon, putting in the adverts / articles / features / images etc is easy and simply requires a little editorial input as far as wordcounts and ordering is concerned.

A final mock issue may be available in a month or so with the finalised design, but again with nonsense articles to fill up space.  The articles will be inserted AFTER the trial team review the design and sign it off.

I know everyone has great ideas for what should go into the magazine and this is wonderful as it allows a broad spectrum of potential articles / features for us to chose from, and will ensure the longevity of the magazine.  Unfortunately, not everyone can have as much input as they would like, again refering back to my 'too many cooks spoil the broth' comment earlier.  The editorial and content cannot be decided by a comittee, otherwise what would be the point in publishing it?  There owuld be that many people involved in the decisions regarding articles that everyone would know what was going to be in it before it was printed, and we would not sell any magazines!

Any and ALL contributions in the way of articles / ideas / feature ideas / advert possibilities etc is being recorded for later discussion. 

This is not just WCE and I working on a magazine for window cleaners, it is the community here providing their ideas and inspiration to allow the designers and editorial team to create a magazine all window cleaners would be interested in reading.  The decisions do need to be made though, and they will be made by the editorial team, whoever they may be. 

Now, if we can remain calm, and stop throwing our toys out of the pram we might just get somewhere...   

*disclaimer* The use of 'we', 'us' etc do not imply that it is WCE and I alone working on the magazine.  It is simply easier than constantly typing 'the team' or 'the editorial team' all of which are interchangeable.  The terms refered to refer to any and all people who contribute to the magazine in a paid or unpaid capacity.

[TennetClean]

I think this is an interesting idea, but I see several problems so far, as well as what has been said about the time needed

...and will be decided by the editorial team / editor after we have sent for and recieved articles back from designated volunteer contributors..

"Editorial team" lol its just two blokes, I think you are letting this go to your head a bit.  Delusions of grandeur spring to mind.

As we are at the basic design stage at the moment, if you have any experience of desk-top publishing, graphic design, typography etc please feel free to give us some pointers.

Its good that your honest but it also is evident that you dont know what you're doing. 

A final mock issue may be available in a month or so with the finalised design, but again with nonsense articles to fill up space.

So its taking you a whole month to put together... 8 pages of jibberish text.  So how long for the actual mag?  2 years?

The articles will be inserted AFTER the trial team review the design and sign it off.

Trial Team?  Sign it off?  Lol, you are majorly getting carried away me thinks.  How long before egos start to get n the way and people threaten to quit unless they get their own way blah blah.  Its already happening.

Think it’s a great idea. But you need a real purpose for the magazine for it to be of any use, (and survive.) Without that what would it be?

Ionic has a purpose!

Ewan has made a good point.  Support on the forum is all very well, but surely those people will go to THE FORUM for any info they want, why would they also read the same thing in a mag?  SO far your only purpose seems to be to be a rival to the PWC magazine, rather than a motive of actally doing any good.

And finally...
From what I gather you are basically trying to do something so that it is not connected with ionics.  Thats fine, but weather you like it or not they are the main wfp company and how seriously will you be taken if you have nothing about them at all?  Something tells me they wont allow you to discuss their stuff and they dont need you as they have their own mag.  Also if you criticise them you'll probably find yourself in court faster than you can say jack robinson.

No offense, but just going by what you've already said this is shaping up to be rubishy in comparison to their mag that has all the best gear in it and does look like a pro job.  And theirs is free so they dont have to make it pay.

keep up the good work though LOL

[Clive McDonald]

that was pretty good tennant, a case very well presented and illustrated. There does need to be a clear purpose over and above written by window cleaners for window cleaners. So I suggest that some kind of mission statement is agreed.

Sanity I am impressed with how you are going about things.I still think knocking content ideas about could pay.

[WCE]

Right Tennent, your comments are most welcome but I feel that you have no real idea on what goes into production of a magazine the mock up issue will take us a month because sanity will have to finalise the layout of the magazine. Once this has been done we will have the basic template that the articles and features will be inserted into and therefore the layout will only have to be set once. Therefore each issue after this will hopefully be turned around in a reasonable timescale. Please remember that we are doing this from scratch. You say that the mag has to look the business this takes time!
Also you say that our magazine sounds like it like it will be rubbish compared to PWC How can you say that when you have no idea on content, layout or what products we are going to have for review. Who says Ionics wont be featured in the magazine true they have their own mag but your telling me that they would miss out on the chance to have their equipment reviewed up against their rivals in a publication that has no ties with any company. This goes for all suppliers if they have faith in their products then I cant see why they wouldn't. Their product could  easily come out as the best (or worst). With regards to the comment that pwc has all the best products does it? Thats your opinion obviously you like Ionics equipment but thats just your opinion. And with regards to Ionics taking us to court if we are critical to them rubbish they cant sue for an opinion (i checked)  With regards to the trial team what you don't realise tennent is I have the trial team in place and will be contacting them by email to confirm our schedule and when we expect the trial issue will be ready to look at. They have been chosen to represent a broad selection of potential readers.       

[Sanity]

Ok, here is the reply to your post above TennetClean.  Please READ it, and try to understand it.  Oh, and try to google the words you have difficulty with...

...and will be decided by the editorial team / editor after we have sent for and recieved articles back from designated volunteer contributors..

"Editorial team" lol its just two blokes, I think you are letting this go to your head a bit. Delusions of grandeur spring to mind.

Why delusions of grandeur?  We will be sending the final DESIGN to a TEAM of volunteers from this forum for them to CONSTRUCTIVELY critisise so we can make it appealing and eyecatching.  So, DESIGN, TEAM, get it?  Oh, an a dictionary defines 'team' as being more than one person attempting to achieve a common goal...team.  So yes, we are a team.  And anyone else who would like to join is welcome. 

As we are at the basic design stage at the moment, if you have any experience of desk-top publishing, graphic design, typography etc please feel free to give us some pointers.

Its good that your honest but it also is evident that you dont know what you're doing.

Why does asking for assistance imply I don't know what I am doing?  I simply want as many people as possible to have an input in the DESIGN stage.
Evidently you have not read the rest of this thread, or the big words scare you, but I have had 2 years experience in desktop publishing, design and print preparation for the David Winson Organisation, preparing magazines and journals for the Institute of Carpenters, Faculty of Building and other construction related organisations.  So, once again you are wrong.  I know exactly what I am doing...

A final mock issue may be available in a month or so with the finalised design, but again with nonsense articles to fill up space.

So its taking you a whole month to put together... 8 pages of jibberish text. So how long for the actual mag? 2 years?

TennentClean, everytime you put your fingers on a keyboard you demonstrate that you don't know what YOU are on about.  A magazine requires a number of steps in order to become a reality...let me explain them to you..

1. Idea (lets create a magazine)
2. Feasablity Evaluation (who will buy it, what will it be about, is this interesting enough to get people buying it, what is the market, will it be worth doing? etc etc etc etc)
3. Financial Evaluation (will it need financing?  costs? income projection, advertising rates, etc etc etc)

At this point, it is decided by the idea originator, publisher, future editorial team, financier, etc whether or not to commit time, energy and money into the project...

4. Design alpha (this is the first rough design of the magazine.  It shows examples of fonts (letter styles) colours, layouts (using Jabberwoky, pleas egoogle it), possible placement of content, page styling, placement of page numbers etc...  This is an internal design, meaning that the production team (currently jusy WCE and myself) would view it and make changes.  If more people join this team, more people would get an input but as of yet nobody has commited THEIR time and effort to it...
5. Design beta.  (last draft of the design, showing final choices of lours,fonts, sizes, placements of content pages and editorial information.)  This is the stage at which it will be forwarded to the 'design team' (the team of people from the forum that will advise us on our design choices)
6. Design Final.  this is the finished design, with all the aforementioned colours, fonts etc decided and set as a template.

Now the bit that DOES require input from potential readers...the content..

7. Theme.  Each issue requires a major theme that will proivide the cover story and the major piece imediately after the contents page and on which the majority of editorial comment will be made.  This theme will be decided by the editorial team (currently...WCE and myself, please see definition of team in a dictionary or wikipedia, although if anyone would like to assist, please do so...)
8. Article procurement.  A register of volunteer article contributors is created at this point, providing sources for articles to match, compliment or contradict the theme.  Other contributions such as letters, jokes, cartoons, etc are obtained in the same manner.  Canvassing is carried out to obtain advertising customers.
8. Editing. The gathered, edited, spellchecked, grammarchecked articles are returned to their writers for their agreement of any changes that have been made.  
9. Layout draft.  The articles and other content are inserted into the allocated text boxes.  Images are obtained to match the articles and inserted into image placeholders in the design agreed in stage 6.  Once the magazine is filled, this is then sent to proofreaders (again, selected from the register of contributors) for checking.
9. Layout final.  At this stage, the artwork for advertisements is put in place, and any changes made from the proofreaders.  Final checks of continuity etc are made and printing marks added.
10.  Proof.  The final proof is sent to the printer, who produces 5 copies for us to check that what is printed is what we see on our PC screens.  If this is ok, then we go to print.....So yes, the very first issue takes longer as there is all the designing to be done as well as the content side.  I would personally estimate that June / July as the first printed copy, dependant on the speed that people get their articles in...

The articles will be inserted AFTER the trial team review the design and sign it off.

Trial Team? Sign it off? Lol, you are majorly getting carried away me thinks. How long before egos start to get n the way and people threaten to quit unless they get their own way blah blah. Its already happening.

Have you never heard of perception? When I speak to my customers, I refer to 'we' and 'us'.  this gives the impression that the business is a little bigger than just a one-man-band and causes less snobbery in my experience.  Sign it off is a term to say that the TEAM of people we chose to review the design, drafts etc are happy for us to proceed to the next stage.  As for egos...can you please quote where any ego massaging or denting has occured?  Or are YOU delusional?


To be continued...

[Sanity]

continuation from above...

Think it’s a great idea. But you need a real purpose for the magazine for it to be of any use, (and survive.) Without that what would it be?
Ionic has a purpose!

The purpose is to provide window cleaners with an independnt magazine that will address and inform about issues that are interesting, could impact upon our businesses, or that simply amuse, as is the case with the vast majority of magazines out there.  We have a pretty small market to satisfy, and a pretty substantial subject to write about (everything from which rubber to use in the blade to business growth, to etc etc etc etc etc...).  We also need to provide window cleaners with information on supliers, product tests, etc that are NON-BIAS (unlike the Ionics magazine you keep harping on about).

Ionics magazine only serves to sell Ionics systems...unless you know different.  So it is simply an extension of their catalogue.  I don't see them comparing their system in a crash test to a home-built system under the same conditions...I don't see them advertising other WFP systems in the 'magazine'

It has a great design and is professionally composed but it is simply a brochure for Ionics...

Ewan has made a good point. Support on the forum is all very well, but surely those people will go to THE FORUM for any info they want, why would they also read the same thing in a mag? SO far your only purpose seems to be to be a rival to the PWC magazine, rather than a motive of actally doing any good.

Do you buy newspapers?  Why?  You can turn on the TV any time you want and watch the news...
Do you buy magazines?  Why?  you can access the internet anytime you want and find out anything you want?  what is the purpose of the magazines / newspapers you buy when you can get all their information elsewhere?
The motive is to be INDEPENDENT, to say when something is wrong, or bad as well as when something is good or great.

And finally...
From what I gather you are basically trying to do something so that it is not connected with ionics. Thats fine, but weather you like it or not they are the main wfp company and how seriously will you be taken if you have nothing about them at all? Something tells me they wont allow you to discuss their stuff and they dont need you as they have their own mag. Also if you criticise them you'll probably find yourself in court faster than you can say jack robinson.

Then god help us all, as the government is no doubt gonna send hit-squads after all of us who critisise them.
Don't talk wet you fool.  You can make known preferences and factual critisism of ANYTHING without ending up in court.  your ignorance astounds me considering how much you have to say for yourself...
As long as the magazine does not LIE about anything and simply presents the facts, nothing can be done.  Have you never read a review of a product that says it is not a good product?  do you ever hear Jeremy Clarkson slag of Vauxhalls?  does he end up in trouble with the courts?  No.  why?  Because he lives in the real world...

No offense, but just going by what you've already said this is shaping up to be rubishy in comparison to their mag that has all the best gear in it and does look like a pro job. And theirs is free so they dont have to make it pay.

Ok, I have trouble with this one, so help me out...
You say its already rubbishy.  Ok.  What ideas for the design have you put forward?  Because thats the stage we are at...design evaluation, about number three on the list I wrote above.  Have you yet seen any content?  designs?  etc etc?  didn't think so.

If you can do better, please do.  Because all you have done so far is bitch about an IDEA that is yet to take any sort of shape.  Help or don't, I don't care, but please refrain from subjecting us to your pre-coffee drivel.

[Sanity]

And try to keep your replys to the single sylables you are used to.  It took bloody ages to edit those posts above

[WCE]

Check your email sanity!

[Clive McDonald]

I liked your reply Sanity. You are articulate and seem to know what you are talking about.

You explained some of what is involved very well, thank you for that, and possibly by setting it down this has helped you to clarify your own thoughts. However, it took a very well set out case by tennant to make you do so and I can't recall anywhere in his post him calling you names.

Your are wrong about the legal side, even your comment above saying that a certain magazine is biased towards one supplier could be construed as libel.Alex has had to take down various facts and figures that were on his site (correction he didn't have to but he did). And of course like it or not one company does supply the best eqiupment.

It's great to see that you do know what you are doing and also that you are passionate.I don't think too many are going to debate the layout, so we are back to content and purpose.

[WCE]

I liked your reply Sanity. You are articulate and seem to know what you are talking about.

It's great to see that you do know what you are doing and also that you are passionate.I don't think too many are going to debate the layout, so we are back to content and purpose.

Today I have seen a sample of what he can do and I must say that he does know what he's talking about. Trust me the layout side is sorted!
Content - Yes plenty more debate on that (Article writers don't forget wce@sky.com for you submissions!)
Purpose - to provide an unbiased 100% independent magazine for window cleaners. I think thats reason enough.     

[Sanity]

It is only libel if it is untrue...
Facts are facts.
I cannot be taken to court for saying one product is rubbish, because that is an opinion. 
Why do you think a certain beer advertises itself as 'probably the best beer in the world' ?  Because another beer company could take them to court to contest it if they said they were the best.




And thanky ou for your comments.  They are very welcome.

[windowwashers]

continuation from above...

Think it’s a great idea. But you need a real purpose for the magazine for it to be of any use, (and survive.) Without that what would it be?
Ionic has a purpose!

The purpose is to provide window cleaners with an independnt magazine that will address and inform about issues that are interesting, could impact upon our businesses, or that simply amuse, as is the case with the vast majority of magazines out there.  We have a pretty small market to satisfy, and a pretty substantial subject to write about (everything from which rubber to use in the blade to business growth, to etc etc etc etc etc...).  We also need to provide window cleaners with information on supliers, product tests, etc that are NON-BIAS (unlike the Ionics magazine you keep harping on about).

Ionics magazine only serves to sell Ionics systems...unless you know different.  So it is simply an extension of their catalogue.  I don't see them comparing their system in a crash test to a home-built system under the same conditions...I don't see them advertising other WFP systems in the 'magazine'

It has a great design and is professionally composed but it is simply a brochure for Ionics...

Generally all magazines are independent and they all have to be interesting, to the reader. Information that impacts our business is news, buy the time your magazine goes to print your article could be old news!

I don’t think you market is very small, quite a large industry in the UK with a lot of people involved and a large turnover of business and growing everyday (new mag).

I still think you need a definite purpose, even if only to be the voice for window cleaners and there suppliers. That would be a great achievement in itself, but it could still be taken further.

I only gave you the example of the Ionic, to show you what a single purpose can achieve. If you go ahead with your magazine you need to look beyond the fact that it is simply a brochure for Ionics. Can you create a brochure!

Ewan 

for them to work they dont need a bochure for Ionics, I personally would sign up for a window cleaning mag as I know alot would that was based on facts and not influenced by a company that at the mo dominates from money throwing money at it.

sry Ionics no knocking you buy just saying what i feel is the truth

[TennetClean]

So yes, we are a team.  And anyone else who would like to join is welcome.

Thats great.  Can I join please then?



I like the way you put your whole reply in bold, is that just in case I missed it?

...or the big words scare you...

...everytime you put your fingers on a keyboard you demonstrate that you don't know what YOU are on about...

...Or are YOU delusional?...

...Don't talk wet you fool...

...please refrain from subjecting us to your pre-coffee drivel...

...And try to keep your replys to the single sylables you are used to...

Could it be that actually you dont have much respect for humble window cleaners like me now that you consider yourself part of some "editorial team".  I'm hurt.

considering that I am your target audience, you dont seem to be too bothered about winning me over.  So far all you've done is hurl insult after insult at me, though I did not insult you, is this how you are going to handle criticism?

And as regards the legal side, you obviously havent seen how bigger companies use lawsuits to their advantage.  Say you upset them, and they wanted to sue you, even though they knew they didnt have a case.  They would still take you to court because they know you dont have any money.  How would you pay for a defense?  You couldnt.  Just to get in the courtroom would cost you well over £10k, you'd have spent a shed load of cash before a single word was said in court.

But really, you wouldnt even get that far, you'd just apologise and agree to whatever they wanted.  You'd never dare mention or even hint towards ionics again.  And after that, would you have any spirit left to continue with the ever so amazing "shiner"?  Probably not, because theres nothing to stop them doing it again.  And thats even if you were in the right.

If you dont think big companies use their muscle to railroad little guys then you are just naeeve.  I have seen it happen with my own eyes and lawyers are ruthless.

Yeah jeremy clarkson is one thing, he has the multimillion pound BBC to fight his corner if need be and of course every tiny thing he says about a company is looked over by a bbc lawyer first.  Who is going to pay YOUR legal bills?  What lawyer is going to look over YOUR amazing opinion about how good or bad systems are.

[windowwashers]

purpose is getting really views and comments from real window cleaners also new company's not one sided like the PWC (sry I said that but IMO it is true)

Ian

[windowwashers]

WW, Ian, I would sign for a year subscription, and I would hope they offer that to people on this forum to give it a chance of working.

My point about Ionic,  it is just one company with an over the top brochure. They are trying to put a magazine together. I would like it to be good not just a list of suppliers and a few interesting articles. They need to attain something!

Ironically they would need to work with Ionic if not now, later!

Ewan 

I personolly do not think why would need to work with Ionic at all, just IMO. but why would they have to if they had the backing from many companies doing the same, I think they dont need to.


Ian

[Sanity]

ht tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

Defamation, libel and slander are all legal terms for presenting harmful lies as factual truths.  As long as we are truthful in our facts, and are clear about our opinions nobody can sue us for anything.

I really wish you would research these things TennetClean before you reply, because I hate having to do your research for you, or are you simply testing whether or not we know what we are doing and whether or not our level of knowledge about the subjects you query is sufficient for us to hold our own?


Any company, including Ionics, is welcome to advertise in The Shiner, as long as they provide artwork, pay the advertising fee comensurate with the size of the advert and the frequency of its publication.  The worst a company can do when we express an opinion on their product, or present a factual account during a test that they disagree with is to pull their advert and try to hit us in the wallet.

[Sanity]

This is exactly what we hope to do Ewan.  The main reason for independence of this magazine is to present an honest account of the products and services on offer from various suppliers.  Magazines that have a close affiliation with certain suppliers cannot by definition provide an unbiased opinion or present a test that shows their product to be inferior to a competitors product.

We will present our findings, reviews, articles, tests etc in as unbiased way as possible because we will have no affiliation to any company other than the magazine.

We believe this to be the way forward for the magazine, and with 100,000 or more window cleaners in the UK alone, we hope that this unbiased information will assist us all in getting the best possible services, products and supplies for our businesses.

[windowwashers]

Ian, Ionic are a part of the industry. They may have there bad points like a lot of companies. They also have done a lot for the industry, and for window cleaners. (like it or not window cleaners do buy there products)

One thing an independent magazine could do and should do is speak to all, otherwise it’s no different.

Ewan 

Ewan, I am not slating Ionics, as I think there systemns are top notch, what i was saying is a mag that has others views an not bias views would be a good thing, the pwc mag is based and owned by (if I am right , I could be wrong) by Ionics.

if so a mag like that is no good really in this industry (as it is one sided), we are not all sheep and competition is good anywhere, something i guess Ionics maybe scared of.
but have to say there marketing is top notch and i respect that but also detest it (then money does have these traits)

Ian

[Peter Fogwill]

I would think that the majority of magazines need advertising money to keep afloat, I shouldn't think many if any will survive on subscriptions only.  If this is the case with this magazine then already you have to watch what you say about any suppliers products.  Every single supplier out there including Ionics will have a certain part of their system, or a certain product which is inferior to someone else's.  By doing reviews every issue it is not going to be long before you upset all of them at least once, and where then is the money going to come from? 

Or forget product reviews, what about Ettore for example has a full page ad every issue, and Joe bloggs writes a storey for the magazine about squeegee rubbers, and describes the flaws he has found in the Ettore rubber.  Do you print it, or does it go in the bin?? Remembering it is a magazine from window cleaners, for window cleaners.  And I know for a fact that if the storey went to print the very least Ettore would do is stop the advertising, as they threatened to do that on a certain website if I wrote any more about their rubber.

Peter

[WCE]

I would think that the majority of magazines need advertising money to keep afloat, I shouldn't think many if any will survive on subscriptions only.  If this is the case with this magazine then already you have to watch what you say about any suppliers products.  Every single supplier out there including Ionics will have a certain part of their system, or a certain product which is inferior to someone else's.  By doing reviews every issue it is not going to be long before you upset all of them at least once, and where then is the money going to come from? 

Or forget product reviews, what about Ettore for example has a full page ad every issue, and Joe bloggs writes a storey for the magazine about squeegee rubbers, and describes the flaws he has found in the Ettore rubber.  Do you print it, or does it go in the bin?? Remembering it is a magazine from window cleaners, for window cleaners.  And I know for a fact that if the storey went to print the very least Ettore would do is stop the advertising, as they threatened to do that on a certain website if I wrote any more about their rubber.

Peter

Peter, That is a bit silly, how many times have you seen a motor writer in the newspaper slag off a new model of a car eg ford escort only to see ford advertising within the next couple of pages? Exactly loads of times. What it might actually do is make them look at the product they have and maybe encourage them to see if they can improve it.