[Peter Fogwill]

I thought I was doing him a favour.  This was before Ionics took it over, or maybe they had and I never knew about it yet.  Anyway that is what magazines usually do, the American one I mentioned did, and the Cleaning and Maintenance offered me space for free, although I never got round to writing it up.  I just thought I was doing Philip a favour as I knew him from on here.

Peter

I think they may have thought it was more of a favour if you paid to advertise your product instead of wanting them to advertise it for you for nothing LOL.

I dont see how them giving you free advertising space is you doing them a favour?  Maybe the other way around LOL

I thought I had explained this 5 posts above.  I don't think the American window cleaning Magazine, or the Cleaning and Maintenance magazine, would particularly want to give me a page in their magazine, if there was nothing in it for them.

Peter

[Spursboy1972]

I still think it is worth a shot. I would pay to read it and would prob try and write an article for each issue if requested. It does not have to be monthly. Quarterly would be ample or even twice a year?

As far as producing it why not have a word with Mark at DP Design. I am sure he would give a really good price for putting it together? Maybe an exchange whereby he can advertise his services.

Also I know I suggestes "The Real Window Cleaner" as a title which I still prefer to "The shiner". I think you need to have window cleaner in the title.

So another suggestion is how about "The Independant Window cleaner"?

I know you seem to have settled on the Shiner but I still want to suggest.

[Sanity]

The Shiner is just a working title at the moment, refering to the nickname for window cleaners and reflecting the down-to-earth nature that we hope to instill in the magazine.

The title, along with everything else at this stage is open to suggestions and is subject to change.

The new products idea is a good one, but we would not use a whole page for a single product, as this would in essence be an advertisement.  We may feature four or five new products on a double page spread with pictures, a small explaination about it and contact details for the manufacturer / retailer it can be obtained from.

Think kinds 'MAXIM / NUTS / FHM' gadget pages...   Just an idea though.  Having an item featured in this section may involve donating said item for a competition prize (aditional interest for the magazine and for the supplier of the item) or for an in-depth product review by our panel of independant testers.  so if your products are good, they will get a good mark out of ten, if the testers don't like em it will get a low mark, but that is the chance you take...

[Paul Coleman]

The Shiner is just a working title at the moment, refering to the nickname for window cleaners and reflecting the down-to-earth nature that we hope to instill in the magazine.

The title, along with everything else at this stage is open to suggestions and is subject to change.

The new products idea is a good one, but we would not use a whole page for a single product, as this would in essence be an advertisement.  We may feature four or five new products on a double page spread with pictures, a small explaination about it and contact details for the manufacturer / retailer it can be obtained from.

Think kinds 'MAXIM / NUTS / FHM' gadget pages...   Just an idea though.  Having an item featured in this section may involve donating said item for a competition prize (aditional interest for the magazine and for the supplier of the item) or for an in-depth product review by our panel of independant testers.  so if your products are good, they will get a good mark out of ten, if the testers don't like em it will get a low mark, but that is the chance you take...

That's OK.  You can name it after me if you wish.  I won't take legal action for breach of copyright   

[Sanity]

Bless your heart

[WCE]

Good morning!
I have got the details that i will be going through with sanity later on today ( dont forget to check your email later sanity!)

I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.

It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year.  Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong.  Anyway here's why.

It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent.  If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity.  You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do.  I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.

Peter

I think peter is right.

I think there is probably a good reason why ionics/bwca do it now, MONEY.  I bet to produce something like this takes lots of money and more importantly lots of time.  To get someone capable to spend time putting something like this together you need to pay them.

Sure there'll be plenty of numpties who will volunteer their time free just for the "prestige" but are they gonna be able to write anything worthwhile?  Probably not.  You'd end up with a low-quality product and how long before they get fed up and pack it in? (No matter what it was, someone here would criticise it, maybe loads of people.  That will make whoever is doing it discouraged and not want to bother anymore.)

Capable people never do stuff for free unless its for a charity in my experience.

No offence Peter but it you bothered to read all the posts you'd of read that I personally have spent the last few days making sure that we can afford to produce such a magazine. With regards to content I dont believe that we will have a problem getting content.  I have said before , the idea of the magazine is that it's written by window cleaners for window cleaners so to a degree, if you want to see a magazine like this then the ball is in your court! Seriously as I said the magazines first issue will be somewhat of a trial issue and if successful then we will move into regular production. The idea is that we don't run before we can walk. We will be having a review section but I am sure we will have a section that is all about new/future products although it will be only work if the developers tell us about it. Peter we would of featured your brush but it would be in a section along with all the other suppliers new products. Finally, with regard to potential critisism well you cant please everyone all the time and I expect there will be people who might not like our mag but at the same time I believe there will be many more who do enjoy it - the first 100% unbiased magazine written for window cleaners by window cleaners.     

[WCE]

Anyway there must be real interest in this magazine or else there wouldn't be so many people viewing this thread and commenting on it!

[WCE]

The vast majority of time spent compiling a publication such as 'The Shiner' is gathering the articles / chasing the authors of the articles.

The formatting of a magazine does not take much time once your design template has been worked out, fonts decided, etc.

The design side, the editorial side and the business plan side are all at the embryo stage at the moment, but WCE and I will be getting some dialogue going in order to take the first steps in the realisation of this new magazine.

Keep the ideas coming, and the constructive critisism of each others ideas, but please refrain from out and out negativity.  The more encouragement we get and the more feedback the better and more focused we can be on making this more than just a flash-in-the-pan.

If anyone would like to be on the contributors list, please email WCE stating your particular speciality (if you have one) and the range of subjects that you would be able to provide knowledgeable, entertaining and interesting articles about for the readers to enjoy.  this way we can decide upon a subject for the issue, then contact people on the contributors list to submit articles based upon the chosen theme.

The vast majority of the content in 'profession orientated magazines and journals' is provided by unpaid volunteers and contributing authors.  Many want to share their expertise, others want to highlight issues to a wider audience, others simply enjoy having their name in print.  The quality of the editing, grammar, punctuation, etc in the raw articles supplied by these people is often questionable, as can be the tendancy for authors to ramble on way past a specified word count.  It is the skills of the editorial team that turn these rambling, sometimes dull articles into the engaging informative reads that end up in the printed journal / magazine.  (I worked for The David Winson Organisation, a secratariat for many building related magazines and journals, many of which I used to lay out, edit and compile.)

As for the people who carry out the editorial / design / business side of The Shiner...well, advertising will hopefull cover a sum of renumeration comensurate with the time they spend doing the work.  The cover price will be what pays for the printing costs.  Again, this is in a very early stage, but that is how we HOPE it will work.

As I have stated, the idea is in a very early stage and will no doubt undergo many changes of direction / design / editorial content before the first issue is ready for print, so bear with us and keep giving us your support / ideas please

 

That is spot on exactly how it is!

[Peter Fogwill]

No offence Peter but it you bothered to read all the posts you'd of read that I personally have spent the last few days making sure that we can afford to produce such a magazine. With regards to content I dont believe that we will have a problem getting content.  I have said before , the idea of the magazine is that it's written by window cleaners for window cleaners so to a degree, if you want to see a magazine like this then the ball is in your court! Seriously as I said the magazines first issue will be somewhat of a trial issue and if successful then we will move into regular production. The idea is that we don't run before we can walk. We will be having a review section but I am sure we will have a section that is all about new/future products although it will be only work if the developers tell us about it. Peter we would of featured your brush but it would be in a section along with all the other suppliers new products. Finally, with regard to potential critisism well you cant please everyone all the time and I expect there will be people who might not like our mag but at the same time I believe there will be many more who do enjoy it - the first 100% unbiased magazine written for window cleaners by window cleaners.     

I did read what you said in the last couple of days regarding pricing.  My concern was the amount of work that would be needed for it to be a success, and the fact that your own business would definitely suffer as a consequence of the time and effort needed.  

I do remember the other mag when it first came out, and I remember the quality of it.  It was still slated on here.  And it still couldn't obviously make enough money to pay for itself.  As far as the content goes you will have to spend quite a bit of time chasing up people to write content.   Yes at first you will have quite a bit, but you will soon run out, people will get bored with it reading the same old stuff they have already read in other magazines.  And besides there is more than enough information on anything you care to mention these days on the Internet, and especially forums such as this.

I hope you do go ahead with it, I would probably subscribe, but I just don't think it will ever get anywhere.  It's all very well doing something for nothing while everyone is talking about it, and showing an interest, but it will be a different storey when the novelty wares off, and you are putting in a lot of hours in the week for nothing.

Peter

[Clive McDonald]

peters right, and to succeed there needs to be disscusion, which there hasn't been, and a A wider circle of ideas and people involved than just two. imo.Regarding furure critisism even your posts contain poor grammar on a very short word count.

[Tosh]

I've just read through this interesting post and think the idea of a new and independant magazine is great.

However, Philip Hanson (editor of PWC Mag and ex Mod on this site (I took over as mod from him)) is obviously an intelligent guy; I believe he comes from a background in accountancy (which shows he has certain traits; such as an eye for detail), and he's also an excellent communicator; he also sounded like he has some guts (remember his fighting with FWC over seeing their accounts?).

Therefore I doubt Philip wanted his magazine to be Ionics owned; I also know he re-mortgaged his house to fund some of the magazine (I seem to remember Craig from Ionics posting he wanted Philip to show comittement to it, and that's how it was shown).

So my question is, if Philip Hanson couldn't do it, how can anyone else?

My advice to anyone wanting to start their own window cleaning mag, would be to track Philip Hanson down and seek some help from someone whose done it before.  If this seems like a 'too big a job' don't start up a new magazine; you're not cut out for it (I certainly know I'm not).

And finally, I think there's a bit of apathy in the window cleaning trade when it comes to spending money on stuff we don't need.  I remember someone here posting something along the lines of, 'What do I need a window cleaning magazine for?  If I want to read about window cleaning I come on this site.  If I have a question, I ask it here'.

I'm sorry for sounding negative; I'd hate to see someone spending their 'ard earnt on something that's a non-starter; but I do understand that where there's a will there's a way.

Good luck.

[Sanity]

peter's right, and to succeed there needs to be disscusion, which there hasn't been, and a A wider circle of ideas and people involved than just two, imo.<should be two spaces here>Regarding furure critisism even your posts contain poor grammar on a very short word count.

As do yours...

We welcome input from all quarters into the magazine, after all, we want to make it interesting to as wide an audience as possible within the window cleaning fraternity.  However too many cooks spoil the broth, so decisions regarding the day to day running of the magazine will not be made by comittee.  After all, the Editor (or financially responsible person) will be the one to make the final decisions as to the design, editorial, politics, content etc of the magazine.

If you have something that you would like published, or advertised or feel that you have enough expertise in the areas of design, publishing, editing, sales or copywriting please contact either myself or WCE with the details and we will be happy to take a look.

The 8 or so pages of this thread have been mostly discussion on this very topic.  Please go back to the beginning and read...

As we have said and will continue to say, please forward all your ideas.  But be CONSTRUCITVE with your critisism of the idea.  No magazine has yet been produced so please refrain from comments such as 'your grammar sux so the magazine will sux...'

It is such a pity that some people feel the need to pull down not only the idea of doing something for the community of window cleaners, but that they also view an embryonic template layout (which is the stage I am at with the design) with derision based on nothing but supposition and assumption.

Please, if you have something to contribute we welcome it.  If not, wait and see rather than slagging it off before it has taken shape.  

[windowwashers]

peter's right, and to succeed there needs to be disscusion, which there hasn't been, and a A wider circle of ideas and people involved than just two, imo.<should be two spaces here>Regarding furure critisism even your posts contain poor grammar on a very short word count.

As do yours...

We welcome input from all quarters into the magazine, after all, we want to make it interesting to as wide an audience as possible within the window cleaning fraternity.  However too many cooks spoil the broth, so decisions regarding the day to day running of the magazine will not be made by comittee.  After all, the Editor (or financially responsible person) will be the one to make the final decisions as to the design, editorial, politics, content etc of the magazine.

If you have something that you would like published, or advertised or feel that you have enough expertise in the areas of design, publishing, editing, sales or copywriting please contact either myself or WCE with the details and we will be happy to take a look.

The 8 or so pages of this thread have been mostly discussion on this very topic.  Please go back to the beginning and read...

As we have said and will continue to say, please forward all your ideas.  But be CONSTRUCITVE with your critisism of the idea.  No magazine has yet been produced so please refrain from comments such as 'your grammar sux so the magazine will sux...'

It is such a pity that some people feel the need to pull down not only the idea of doing something for the community of window cleaners, but that they also view an embryonic template layout (which is the stage I am at with the design) with derision based on nothing but supposition and assumption.

Please, if you have something to contribute we welcome it.  If not, wait and see rather than slagging it off before it has taken shape.  

Jealous people will always do this as they have something missing in there lives, or would like you to come down to there level and do nothing.

Thats not aimed at anyone but very true, I got the same with website design giving something back to window cleaners, I always get knocked but will always get up and carry on.

As I have said the mag is a good idea, good on you and good luck.
Let ill made comments go over your head.


Ian

[Sanity]

Why somebody would need to re-mortgage their house in order to get a small circulation magazine up and running is beyond me.  From the figures I have investigated it would not be more than one could finance via a credit card, not a mortgage.

I am sure Philip Hanson had the ability, knowledge and flair to make his magazine a success, and to be fair he did!  It was such a success that he managed to get a major player in the WFP market to put THEIR money and time into the project!  Success if ever there was...

Providing an independent magazine, without any affiliation to a particular brand is our aim, and our goal is to remain that way.  I hope we succeed.  But to do so we need the interest of advertisers, article writers, etc.  So get writing

[Paul Coleman]

I've just read through this interesting post and think the idea of a new and independant magazine is great.

However, Philip Hanson (editor of PWC Mag and ex Mod on this site (I took over as mod from him)) is obviously an intelligent guy; I believe he comes from a background in accountancy (which shows he has certain traits; such as an eye for detail), and he's also an excellent communicator; he also sounded like he has some guts (remember his fighting with FWC over seeing their accounts?).

Therefore I doubt Philip wanted his magazine to be Ionics owned; I also know he re-mortgaged his house to fund some of the magazine (I seem to remember Craig from Ionics posting he wanted Philip to show comittement to it, and that's how it was shown).

So my question is, if Philip Hanson couldn't do it, how can anyone else?

My advice to anyone wanting to start their own window cleaning mag, would be to track Philip Hanson down and seek some help from someone whose done it before.  If this seems like a 'too big a job' don't start up a new magazine; you're not cut out for it (I certainly know I'm not).

And finally, I think there's a bit of apathy in the window cleaning trade when it comes to spending money on stuff we don't need.  I remember someone here posting something along the lines of, 'What do I need a window cleaning magazine for?  If I want to read about window cleaning I come on this site.  If I have a question, I ask it here'.

I'm sorry for sounding negative; I'd hate to see someone spending their 'ard earnt on something that's a non-starter; but I do understand that where there's a will there's a way.

Good luck.

I do feel that it is something that I would be capable of doing myself - IF I didn't need to work.  And that is probably the heart of the matter.  If I was retired or even semi - retired, I could probably make a passable go of it (with support) but my preference would be to publish on the net.  If published on the net it would probably need to be a freebie anyway as a password protection with a fee would not work.  It would be too easy for one to pay and then distribute freely to others so it might as well be free to start with.
As things stand, if someone wants to make a go of it (by whatever method) I would be happy to try writing an occasional article for it.  I'm hardly Brain of Britain but I do enjoy writing stuff just for myself.  Hopefully others might like some of the things I would write.

[Clive McDonald]

I think you should re read the thread yourself sanity and look at who has kicked in ideas, and if these ideas have been mulled over. This is what discussion should be and I feel it hasn't taken place.

Peter and Tosh et al were not negative, but trying to be realistic. What you are trying to do is massive. Picking out typos in my post and accusing me of 'slagging off' is a bit much and not promising for the future. As Peter said, the first issues of the other mag were very good but he still got slated.

If you can't take even mild critical comments without firing back aggresively I don't hold out much hope for your style of management if you are to rely on others cooperation.

Back to the topic. If there was some way of widening the audience so that it could be on newsagents shelves then you could be on to something. Very often at airports i pick up franchising magazines, and I believe the business aspect of what we do has some mileage.As to the title I agree with the guy that said window cleaner should be in the title (but also embracing a much wider audience, I mean beyond even carpet and other cleaners to the general public)

You do seem to know more about this than the rest of us Sanity- I admitt I know nothing about mags- and maybe where we are going wrong is in our underestimating the extent.. to which new technology (computers-email-internet) could be used to produce a very pro looking effort at a sensible price.

[Paul Coleman]

May bee eye can right four ewe?

My righting skills are sew good that eye have know knead of a spell chequer.
(Even though eye used won four this post!)

 

I thing queue knead two right bet Turin glitch.

[Sanity]

My appologies Discount Window Cleaning if you felt that I was 'picking' on you specifically, and if you percieved me to be 'agressive' I think you are being a little too sensitive.

I just think people in glass houses should not throw stones   We all make typos when we are trying to make a point (all to do with the brain being faster than the typer) but to pick up on them and use them as a 'reason' why a project won't work is a little petty...

I agree with you wholeheartedly that more ideas from the community need to be forthcoming, and I also agree that this is a massive project.

My point was that encouragement and suggestions tend to provide more enthusiasm than outright baseless negativity.  Again, these comments are aimed an no-one in particular and should be taken in the spirit in which they are intended; one of 'come on guys, we can do this', rather than 'put up or shut up'...

Once again, if you feel that I 'fired back aggresively' then I can only ask that you read my comments again, as they were neither meant nor worded in an agressive manner.  Sometimes the written word can read harsher than it was intended, especially when one is trying to be as succinct as possible in ones writing so as not to offend anyone *rolleyes*.

*back on topic*

Utilising Quark Xpress Passport 7.2, along with Photoshop CS3 and other assorted publishing and graphics tools will allow us to quickly put together a workable template design.  Today for example, I have sorted:
Fonts
Sizes of text
Colours
Images
Overall Design
Advertising space locations and sizes
and have about 8 pages of mockup for WCE to look at and give me input upon.

The time consuming part is finding royalty free pictures to match articles.  And obtaining articles in order to know what to theme the seasons magazine about....oh and obtaining advert artwork from people who have pledged to buy advertising space...Ok, it is lots of things that can slow up the magazine, but the design and layout is simply a case of experience and inspiration.

WCE and I hope to colaborate soon so we know we are working from the same song-sheet.

[Clive McDonald]

Don't waste time trying to put me in my place address the issues. Several on here either have or used to have a high profile.(think about being on the APWC committee for instance) and they know what commitment means and the sort of thanks you are likely to get for it. I've been barracked and abused by some of the best so don't think slimey digs are going to bother me.
So, i'm suggesting you keep out of arguments and instead of accusing people of negativity deal with the substance of what they say. Ie.

I don't agree Discount and don't think this would be a good route to follow because...


My point about poor grammar was to WCE as presumably as editor he would be subbing others work.I find this an interesting topic and that is why I am posting. Why not give us an outline of a sample issue- and yes- let us critisise it.

[Clive McDonald]

What you've added to your post- back on topic- is good. Finally you're begining to get the idea. So what's the list of contents articles and features for a mock issue?