[Moderator David@stives]

One thing to consider is professional indemnity insurance, If you say the wrong thing about the wrong product, then you could find your self in a litigation law suit.

Tread very carefully

[macmac]

Ionics are very cunning.
They were a major driving force behind trying to get ladders banned, they also tried to make it so every supplier had to crash test their van mounted systems. They failed at both & so continue to try whatever possible means to keep their once, almost unique business at the top when every day, smaller, more customer focused suppliers are growing in respect & all the time eating away at Ionics share of the market.

A self-promoting magazine is just one of many marketing techniques used by them.

Tony

[TennetClean]

In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.

SO what you're saying is, dumb it down in order to appeal to window cleaners.  I find that a little offensive mate to be honest, and I don't think i would be the only one.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but what youre saying there is that window cleaners are thickos.  Cheers!

[macmac]

In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.

SO what you're saying is, dumb it down in order to appeal to window cleaners.  I find that a little offensive mate to be honest, and I don't think i would be the only one.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but what youre saying there is that window cleaners are thickos.  Cheers!

I think that was aimed directly at you mate

 

Tony

[TennetClean]

I think that was aimed directly at you mate

Oh thats ok then.  Put me down for a years subscription then and I'll read it while I drool.

[Sanity]

hehe.  I think, from what I have read here and from my own ideas that The Shiner (working title) will be a good read, informative, down-to-earth while retaining the ability to present issues, articles etc in a professional manner.

[windowwashers]

hehe.  I think, from what I have read here and from my own ideas that The Shiner (working title) will be a good read, informative, down-to-earth while retaining the ability to present issues, articles etc in a professional manner.

you could always call it window washer  I will even loan the domain name for it and the hosting

[Clive McDonald]

In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.

SO what you're saying is, dumb it down in order to appeal to window cleaners. I find that a little offensive mate to be honest, and I don't think i would be the only one.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but what youre saying there is that window cleaners are thickos. Cheers!

No Tenant that's not what I meant, and I was surprised that WCE should think he was doing that already. This isn't my idea it is WCE's and Sanity's and I will gladly step away if either thinks i'm trying to take over or steer them in a direction they don't want to go in.

To me there needs to be at least two clear business plans. One is the publishing side, will it be monthly, will it be for sale on newsagents shelves, will it have a wider general audience and how will this affect the title and content.

The other is the editorial, what path is to be taken and who is it aimed at. Where will the articles come from? How many features per edition?

Or, what about an approach to the windbag(silly) himself, craigs smart enought to buy into this. They know all about the hostility in some quarters to their company and they can probably go along with our blandness point.

So, what it is, most papers have editorials. These generaly reflect the views of the paper. For example you wouldn't expect a good pro labour story put across in a positive way in the daily telegraph.

However, the best newspapers in the world such as the New York Times now have things called op-eds where a contrary opinion can be put.These are often the best bits in the paper, provoke the strongest reader reaction, and are a great way of selling papers.

So what about an approach that says give us two pages in your mag, let us say some things you don't much like on occasion, and if you feel the need to shoot us down great, but it would greatly increase the readability..

I nominate Matt to make the pitch

[Clive McDonald]

Comments about this of course.

[Peter Fogwill]

I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.

It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year.  Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong.  Anyway here's why.

It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent.  If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity.  You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do.  I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.

Peter

[Moderator David@stives]

I agree with Peter in a way.

It will only succeed if you have 100% dedication and loads of spare time.

Dont under estimate the commitment required,

[Clive McDonald]

I agree too, it is one of those just suppose ideas though.... Thats typical of you peter, applying common sense.
But what about my op-ed thing, can't we talk them into giving us a page or two. I've seen more life in a morgue.

[TennetClean]

I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.

It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year.  Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong.  Anyway here's why.

It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent.  If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity.  You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do.  I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.

Peter

I think peter is right.

I think there is probably a good reason why ionics/bwca do it now, MONEY.  I bet to produce something like this takes lots of money and more importantly lots of time.  To get someone capable to spend time putting something like this together you need to pay them.

Sure there'll be plenty of numpties who will volunteer their time free just for the "prestige" but are they gonna be able to write anything worthwhile?  Probably not.  You'd end up with a low-quality product and how long before they get fed up and pack it in? (No matter what it was, someone here would criticise it, maybe loads of people.  That will make whoever is doing it discouraged and not want to bother anymore.)

Capable people never do stuff for free unless its for a charity in my experience.

[windowwashers]

I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.

It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year.  Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong.  Anyway here's why.

It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent.  If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity.  You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do.  I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.

Peter

I think peter is right.

I think there is probably a good reason why ionics/bwca do it now, MONEY.  I bet to produce something like this takes lots of money and more importantly lots of time.  To get someone capable to spend time putting something like this together you need to pay them.

Sure there'll be plenty of numpties who will volunteer their time free just for the "prestige" but are they gonna be able to write anything worthwhile?  Probably not.  You'd end up with a low-quality product and how long before they get fed up and pack it in? (No matter what it was, someone here would criticise it, maybe loads of people.  That will make whoever is doing it discouraged and not want to bother anymore.)

Capable people never do stuff for free unless its for a charity in my experience.

Some people do things for free for many reasons, I myself have done this ask MBS

[Sanity]

The vast majority of time spent compiling a publication such as 'The Shiner' is gathering the articles / chasing the authors of the articles.

The formatting of a magazine does not take much time once your design template has been worked out, fonts decided, etc.

The design side, the editorial side and the business plan side are all at the embryo stage at the moment, but WCE and I will be getting some dialogue going in order to take the first steps in the realisation of this new magazine.

Keep the ideas coming, and the constructive critisism of each others ideas, but please refrain from out and out negativity.  The more encouragement we get and the more feedback the better and more focused we can be on making this more than just a flash-in-the-pan.

If anyone would like to be on the contributors list, please email WCE stating your particular speciality (if you have one) and the range of subjects that you would be able to provide knowledgeable, entertaining and interesting articles about for the readers to enjoy.  this way we can decide upon a subject for the issue, then contact people on the contributors list to submit articles based upon the chosen theme.

The vast majority of the content in 'profession orientated magazines and journals' is provided by unpaid volunteers and contributing authors.  Many want to share their expertise, others want to highlight issues to a wider audience, others simply enjoy having their name in print.  The quality of the editing, grammar, punctuation, etc in the raw articles supplied by these people is often questionable, as can be the tendancy for authors to ramble on way past a specified word count.  It is the skills of the editorial team that turn these rambling, sometimes dull articles into the engaging informative reads that end up in the printed journal / magazine.  (I worked for The David Winson Organisation, a secratariat for many building related magazines and journals, many of which I used to lay out, edit and compile.)

As for the people who carry out the editorial / design / business side of The Shiner...well, advertising will hopefull cover a sum of renumeration comensurate with the time they spend doing the work.  The cover price will be what pays for the printing costs.  Again, this is in a very early stage, but that is how we HOPE it will work.

As I have stated, the idea is in a very early stage and will no doubt undergo many changes of direction / design / editorial content before the first issue is ready for print, so bear with us and keep giving us your support / ideas please

 

[Peter Fogwill]

A bit of advice if it does go ahead is have a section for new products.  The American window cleaning magazine had one and as far as I was concerned it was the most interesting section they had.  It might just be me because I develop new products, but anyone you speak to that has not been to a trade show usually asks if there was any new products on show.  And at the trade shows the companies with the new products or inventions are the ones with the most people at the stand.

I don't know if it had a detrimental effect on Philip's magazine, but in the very early days of the Autobrush I offered Philip the chance to feature it in his new products section, thinking it would be beneficial for both of us.  He declined saying he would only feature it if I had been advertising in the magazine.  I may have advertised if he had featured it, but it never got that far.  I think he missed out there, but it was his magazine at the time, and he done it his way.

Peter

[TennetClean]

LOL peter, so you asked for a free advert and you were told NO

What a suprise

[Peter Fogwill]

Keep the ideas coming, and the constructive critisism of each others ideas, but please refrain from out and out negativity.  The more encouragement we get and the more feedback the better and more focused we can be on making this more than just a flash-in-the-pan.

Surely it's better to get it now before you put to much work into it.  Yous certainly won't be the first to try and get something like this together, and probably won't be the last.  

I knew the ex-owner of the American window cleaning mag personally, as I done a few articles for him, and met him at a couple of trade shows, and I can tell you it was a struggle for him, and he couldn't wait to get out of it.  I also know the amount of time he spent with emails flying back and forth across the Atlantic, for a simple editorial, or advert.

Peter

[Peter Fogwill]

LOL peter, so you asked for a free advert and you were told NO

What a suprise

I thought I was doing him a favour.  This was before Ionics took it over, or maybe they had and I never knew about it yet.  Anyway that is what magazines usually do, the American one I mentioned did, and the Cleaning and Maintenance offered me space for free, although I never got round to writing it up.  I just thought I was doing Philip a favour as I knew him from on here.

Peter

[TennetClean]

I thought I was doing him a favour.  This was before Ionics took it over, or maybe they had and I never knew about it yet.  Anyway that is what magazines usually do, the American one I mentioned did, and the Cleaning and Maintenance offered me space for free, although I never got round to writing it up.  I just thought I was doing Philip a favour as I knew him from on here.

Peter

I think they may have thought it was more of a favour if you paid to advertise your product instead of wanting them to advertise it for you for nothing LOL.

I dont see how them giving you free advertising space is you doing them a favour?  Maybe the other way around LOL