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Poll

Whats the ideal length for a downstairs pole ?

3ft or less
25%
10 (25%)
4ft
40%
16 (40%)
5ft
15%
6 (15%)
6ft
7.5%
3 (7.5%)
8ft
12.5%
5 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7744
Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2007, 07:50:31 am »
Quote
Hope its made you all think and question the way you work and how to save time and make more profit. Demmand what you want from the manuf. dont take everything for granted and if your a manuf. look at the results.

I've thought, & i've questioned myself all day & still come to the same conclusion-
There's no way a modular pole is quicker on domestic, a telescopic pole that does both tops & bottoms with ease & a brush that will do everything so no need to change it is still the quickest & best way. ;)

Whip pole out of van -        3 seconds
Extend -                              3 seconds
Clean -                                 ????
Retract pole for bottoms -   3 seconds
Put pole in van -                  3 seconds

Away, next job, no pole changes, no brush changes, no being ultra careful not to chip my delicate sections, no hassle.

tony


I do agree with you Tony.  For my own work I always use a telescopic for domestic work.  It is quicker but not as light.

However, as Jeff says, if you have any kind of injury as some of our clients do then the lower weight is the crucial factor.  We have clients that buy the modular Super-Lite following accidents where their physical therapists tell them that unless they use something as light as this, they will have to stop work.  One of the chaps that works for us uses his Super-Lite for every job he does (50% domestic).  This is because he has fibromyalgia in his neck and shoulders.  If he didn't use this pole, he would have to give up work.

In developing our new telescopic pole (SL-X) we have tried to make the ideal pole for the average window cleaner (the Super-Lite being for high level and commercial work for the majority of users).

Davew

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2007, 04:47:55 pm »
If money were no object then a cut down carbon fibre (Facelift?) for everyday and a carbon Superlight for the high stuff. Unfortunately money is something i don't have in excess so its cheap modular carbon  for domestic (£50 ish) much lighter than any glassfibre telescopic but a little slower to use. Then i keep the Superlight for best. I might add that since using modular i haven't had a single fibreglass splinter in my hands. ;)
ps. if it's speed you want then Tony is right. :)

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2007, 05:04:57 pm »
Don`t worry you WILL get spinters from modular poles and beleive me they are worse than fiber glass ones,the base of your sections obviously havn`t had enough use yet.The carbon splinters are almost invisible and painful,they have to work there way out of the skin,i know some will say wear gloves but that`s not happening in the summer is it.

Davew

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2007, 05:18:43 pm »
The base off every section i have taped so no chips or splinters yet after nine months of constant use. My first telescopic extender lasted five weeks. If you can afford it then buy the best, however fifty odd pounds sounds better than five hundred to me at the moment. When i have built up a bigger/better round then i can afford to go facelift or whatever untill then it's pretty much the diy route for me.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2007, 05:22:52 pm »
The worse ones from modulars are if you split a section only slightly and run your hand over it.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2007, 05:25:11 pm »
The worse ones from modulars are if you split a section only slightly and run your hand over it.
I've got a glass fibre extender for every day use, and I'm starting to get invisble splinters.

It's like being stabbed with a tiny needle, but you can't see anything there. >:(

Paul Coleman

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2007, 05:25:59 pm »
Don`t worry you WILL get spinters from modular poles and beleive me they are worse than fiber glass ones,the base of your sections obviously havn`t had enough use yet.The carbon splinters are almost invisible and painful,they have to work there way out of the skin,i know some will say wear gloves but that`s not happening in the summer is it.

Oh dear.  I don't like the sound of that.  I didn't realise you could get splinters from carbon fibre.  I've only just bought a modular carbon pole too.

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2007, 05:30:23 pm »
The worse ones from modulars are if you split a section only slightly and run your hand over it.
I've got a glass fibre extender for every day use, and I'm starting to get invisble splinters.

It's like being stabbed with a tiny needle, but you can't see anything there. >:(
why not get some glass fibre resin (think that's whatit's called and repaint it? I rebuilt a boat when I was younger and used this alot, I will test this out as soon as this happens to me. I tend not to run the pole down my hands when putting it down just catch as it closes but that off to a fine art now,

Davew

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2007, 05:32:23 pm »
Ah but how do you pull your sections out?

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2007, 05:37:06 pm »
Ah but how do you pull your sections out?
the same way as you would normally do, the only reason you are getting splinters is because the pole is damaged the finish, just add the finishing paint back (and hay presto a new pole)  ;)

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2007, 05:48:07 pm »
Why do poles take so long to develope ?
It's easy isn't it?
You have carbon fibre sections that've been made for other poles anyway. As soon as you've got three bits that fit into each other, some off the shelf clamps,  a tail up the middle, and bang them out at four times cost what could be easier?

You know the ergonomics and most suitable lenghts from fibreglass examples. What is so hard about it?

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7744
Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2007, 05:49:57 pm »
Why do poles take so long to develope ?
It's easy isn't it?
You have carbon fibre sections that've been made for other poles anyway. As soon as you've got three bits that fit into each other, some off the shelf clamps,  a tail up the middle, and bang them out at four times cost what could be easier?

You know the ergonomics and most suitable lenghts from fibreglass examples. What is so hard about it?

You are joking I hope.

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2007, 05:51:35 pm »
Why do poles take so long to develope ?
It's easy isn't it?
You have carbon fibre sections that've been made for other poles anyway. As soon as you've got three bits that fit into each other, some off the shelf clamps,  a tail up the middle, and bang them out at four times cost what could be easier?

You know the ergonomics and most suitable lenghts from fibreglass examples. What is so hard about it?
delevoping a pole I am guessing is not easy to do, would not know as never looked into it, have enough on my plate at the mo. I will be looking into re giging my poles I have when they start to cause problems, if it does not work cost me a few pounds if it works saves me quite a few pounds

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2007, 06:18:31 pm »
I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.

But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?

With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2007, 06:24:16 pm »
I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.

But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?

With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.
I understand the points you are making, but I think there is alot more to it them just sticking in sections, I could be very wrong, but any product this is to last and or work well needs planning, I am no way going into manufacturing poles or inventing them, I have enough projects for at least the next 5 years.
try and fix a damaged pole that i use yes, 

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7744
Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2007, 07:19:07 pm »
I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.

But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?

With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.

We have had our new telescopic pole in development for about 10 months now and by the time it hits the shelves, it will have taken a year from conception to sales. If we just 'lifted' standard items off of the shelf, then all we would be selling is what someone else currently sells. Good products take time to think through, prototypes have to be made and then put into active service (6 months is a minimum trial time for a decent pole). Once this has been done you assess the product, make any improvements (which there always are) and then have more prototypes manufactured to see if these improvements actually work. Once you have finalised these details then you have to have the specific tooling manufactured for every bit of the pole. This takes months and many thousands of pounds.

Then you have to be prepared to commit your firm to a year's production run of the items, trying to anticipate demand for your 'new' product.  This usually will mean a commitment of in excess of £100,000 in addition to your tooling costs and your prototype manufacturing costs.

At the end of this you will hopefully have a 'world class' product that people will want to use. When it comes to margins on poles not even the mighty Ionics makes anything like the 4 times mark-up you quote. The margins on some of our poles is less than £10.

As to 'stealing a march' on other firms like Emporium, etc, we are rather more concerned with our ideas being protected so that others cannot 'steal' them. We currently have a legal team working on one infringement of our Protected Design rights. This is why, after we have developed a new product ,we take the time and money to protect the design with the Patent Office which is what we've done with all of our recent new products.

It would be great if new product introduction were simple, but then if it was, everyone would be doing it and then if everyone was doing it, no one would make money from it so no one would end up bothering and there would be no progress.   My motives for developing a better pole are purely selfish.  I work as a window cleaner and want my work to be as easy as possible, therefore I have set out to try and develop the best window cleaning pole in the world! If it works well for me I know that it will work well for other window cleaners.

macmac

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2007, 08:58:24 pm »
Don't quote me but i was told by an insider that facelift spent 3 years developing thier poles.
Good on you Alex, a world class telescopic pole is what the market is needing IMO. A facelift beater (yes, realy). there will always be tight gets who won't spend over 100 quid on a pole but for the serious contenders (most pro wfp'ers) who know the score, they will willingly pay the cost, & more so, appreciate the product for as you say- to make your work as easy as possible, & with more speed & accuracy. Look at facelift, top pole, very expensive, the pole sold itself. infact, it sold so well they couldn't make them quick enough & completly sold out!
Up the new gardiner telescopic (whatever the cost :D)

tony

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2007, 09:23:55 pm »
I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.

But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?

With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.

We have had our new telescopic pole in development for about 10 months now and by the time it hits the shelves, it will have taken a year from conception to sales. If we just 'lifted' standard items off of the shelf, then all we would be selling is what someone else currently sells. Good products take time to think through, prototypes have to be made and then put into active service (6 months is a minimum trial time for a decent pole). Once this has been done you assess the product, make any improvements (which there always are) and then have more prototypes manufactured to see if these improvements actually work. Once you have finalised these details then you have to have the specific tooling manufactured for every bit of the pole. This takes months and many thousands of pounds.

Then you have to be prepared to commit your firm to a year's production run of the items, trying to anticipate demand for your 'new' product.  This usually will mean a commitment of in excess of £100,000 in addition to your tooling costs and your prototype manufacturing costs.

At the end of this you will hopefully have a 'world class' product that people will want to use. When it comes to margins on poles not even the mighty Ionics makes anything like the 4 times mark-up you quote. The margins on some of our poles is less than £10.

As to 'stealing a march' on other firms like Emporium, etc, we are rather more concerned with our ideas being protected so that others cannot 'steal' them. We currently have a legal team working on one infringement of our Protected Design rights. This is why, after we have developed a new product ,we take the time and money to protect the design with the Patent Office which is what we've done with all of our recent new products.

It would be great if new product introduction were simple, but then if it was, everyone would be doing it and then if everyone was doing it, no one would make money from it so no one would end up bothering and there would be no progress.   My motives for developing a better pole are purely selfish.  I work as a window cleaner and want my work to be as easy as possible, therefore I have set out to try and develop the best window cleaning pole in the world! If it works well for me I know that it will work well for other window cleaners.
Good post Alex, I really liked the last section " everyone would be doing it"
And I sit here waiting to test your new telescopic prototype pole to give an honest view on it  ;D

Davew

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2007, 09:52:40 pm »
Macmac you are funny. ;D

macmac

Re: Ground floor pole size.
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2007, 10:26:02 pm »
Macmac you are funny. ;D

Thankyou david :-[ :-[ :-[