[letzclean]

I am going to have a meeting with estate agent on Tuesday with a view to clean their properties I would like some advice on negotiating i.e how I should start. I have a number of domestic cleaners that clean private individual houses   I am hoping to charge £8 per hour pay the cleaner £5.50 and take £2.50  If anyone has experience of dealing with letting/estate agents your insight would be appreciated. Should I expect to clean a minimum amount of properties, should i charge per hour or for the amount of properties cleaned?

[Paul-T]

letzclean

Why do you need advice on negotiating? Since you are in operation and already have clients why not use what you have learnt already and apply that in the same way?

I imagine the estate agent needs you to clean their properties that are to let?  Or is this a service to home owners that they are offering? Whatever it is I personally think you should use this opportunity as an 'as and when' basis. It would not be professional to expect the estate agent to give work when there may not be any - "Should I expect to clean a minimum amount of properties" - that would drive any customer away since they are reliant on others and have no control as to when a property becomes vacant.

I would charge per hour - you don't know how bad the properties will be that you're going to clean - setting a cost could prove unworkable if you then suddenly get a property that is in a real mess and requires much more work then generally.

[letzclean]

Thank you Paul much appreciated I agree with you on a as and when basis would be a lot easier. But from the conversation I have had with them, I believe they have a rather large property portfolio 30+ across London. Thanks again for your advice

[Paul-T]

letzclean

Well, what can I say it does appear you'll be mighty busy - 30+ properties (WOW!) - congratulations on that and I sincerely wish you the best of luck on your meeting!

[Robert Parry]

Letzclean,

Can I ask where your profit is at the prices you are looking to charge?

From the figures that you posted, how can you pay for insurance, H & S and all the rest, plus still make a profit?

Regards,

Rob

[Bertie Boo]

I can see the point (in part) about charging by the hour BUT to me it seems to be a bit unprofessional to do so when so many 'companies' charge by the job, especially for one-offs. Usually the people who charge by the hour are those who provide a labour-only service. The sort of all-in-one service where a place is turned inside-out using all the cleaning materials of the company is one where usually an agreed price is given. I can never quite understand how work done can equal an hourly rate - surely this depends soley on how fast the cleaners work?

What would be the problem in visiting each property before the work was done to give a quote? Once two or three properties were done and the estate agent pleased with the work and the reliability then the prices could even be increased...I would also have thought the estate agent would be more keen on a job well done with no fuss than they would a cheap price?

I am still puzzled at hourly rates being chraged for cleaning, i can't think of many other things you 'buy' by the hour.

Stephen

[Paul-T]

Bertie Boo

I guess it doesn't really matter whether it is hourly or as a 'one-off' charge for a particular job. However, charging an hourly rate (inclusive of whatever materials/profits are needed) allows for letzclean to be more flexible in case a 'one-off' job is taking longer than expected. They could simply give an estimate of the job and not an exact quote - though try and work within the estimate given.

I suppose a lot depends how one wants to work their business but I certainly wouldn't see one better than the other - but simply giving my own opinion.

Actually many major companies now prefer tenders to show everything, they want transparency and want to know everything from hourly rates to cost of materials and profit. So, keeping an hourly rate out the equation is never a good thing - you need to know where your money is going and be prepared to share all that information with any company requesting it......or find no work!

Just a few more thoughts. 

[Paul-T]

Robert

Why would letzclean be paying for H&S? Not sure I understand that bit of your questioning.

However I do agree with the rest of your statement. I wonder if they have thought about materials/equipment for these jobs that will be needed.......I'm also guessing the kitchens and all equipment will require cleaning, these materials aren't cheap.

Maybe letzclean should charge an hourly rate plus extra for materials etc. Showing these specific costs will always show openess & Honesty....we mustn't forget many companies don't want to feel cheated.

[Bertie Boo]

Paul

Ypur comments are noted, but i stiill fail to see how one hour of my time is supposed to be identical to one hour of yours, and both be identical to one hour of someone elses...

I know for a fact that i work at differing speeds - ok there is no doubt that some jobs are going to take longer than others -for instance i'd vacuum an empty 5 bedroom house a lot faster than i would clean two arty farty dangly light fittings etc- but i'm saying that paying by the hour suggests that everybody cleans at the same speed.

Not only that, the avaliabilty and useabilty of cleaning materials will affect the time taken. I use all my own stuff, there is nothing i could ever need that i do not have (and know where to find) in the car. To be in someones house using their stuff, having to hunt for it, suss out how it works, put right anything that isnt working etc, would take time and presumably time that i was being paid to clean in (if charging by the hour).

But as you say its opinion.

cheers

Stephen

[Robert Parry]

Paul,

All tasks undertaken at work, have to comply with the Health & Safety legislation, this applies to the self employed as well as employer's and employee's.

I know far too many individuals and companies who fail in just this one aspect of legislation, these normally rely on information gleaned from forums such as this, or indeed the wider web.

Now dont get me wrong, sites such as this one and others, and indeed the w.w web, are a starting point, but the information that one can usefully glean from such points of access are very limited, there really is no substitute for real training and certification, this of course, all costs money!

The second point of my response was regarding the proper insurance, again many individuals and companies, choose their cover, not on what is required, but on price, some even fail to tell their own insurance companies the true extent and scope of their actual work activities in order to keep the cost of cover down.

My actual query, was how can Letzclean make any sort of profit on a take of £2.50 per hour, per cleaner?

Considering other expenses, such as payroll, tax, NI, transport, equipment, materials, training, advertising, and many many more.

A couple of our own staff, have recently decided to go it alone after spending 4yrs working with us   , good cleaners and very nice people to boot, they worked their proper notice, and we parted as friends, spent 2 days with them, just banging some idea's around, they actually bank with barclays, same as us, but they were given the opportunity to purchase something called "Business Manager", this can include as little or as much info as you want or need including Health and Safety info, that seems better than a lot of stuff I have seen been bandied around, but even so, in the small print it advises you to obtain professional advice regarding your own set of circumstances!

Which, of course, is going to cost..

Remember that Letzclean has stated that this client has about 30 properties, fuel and time costs, has he allowed for this in his calculations?

Also, you can only show specific costs, if you truly know what these costs are!

Regards,

Rob

[Art]

£8 per hours is nowhere near enough. Try £15 at the least.

LA cleans IMO are amongst the most difficult in the industry.

You've got to run around for keys. Alot of the work is short notice and that's only a couple of the good bits 

Read what Rob posted, his replies are spot on

Don't sell yourself short.

Arthur

[Paul-T]

Robert

I know all about the legislations and law regarding H & S but my comment was in reference to your comment highlighting cost:  ".....how can you pay for insurance, H & S and all the rest......" H & S and COSHH actually costs nothing, however there are choices within the industry where self-improvements can be found in various ways - attending expensive courses and find much of what is on offer can be found for free on governmental websites. You're also able to purchase various information from the government fairly cheaply. Again, as this company grows I see them benefiting from the right courses but we are at present addressing a very young company who are not breaking any laws by *not* attending these courses.

I also disagree with some of your further comments. Having certificates dos not prove you have the competency to do the tasks. Too many certificates are relied upon........this can lead to confusion and may mean very little when someone may not have actually done the actual job or tasks for a long period of time. Experience, in my opinion, is the key and not a square piece of paper.

I will proudly mention I have no certificates or 'qualifications'....its done me no harm. I have been in cleaning for over twenty years and due to my experiences and skills I have recently undertaken consultancy work regarding tenders and cleaning on a major UK theme park and additionally to a prestigious company HQ relating to the construction industry where by all advice given was implemented with great success.

As for the rest of your comments I'm unsure as to why you have directed them at me - why would I need to know what your cleaners are doing or who they bank with? I have no doubts about your experience but it serves no purpose 'talking' down to someone in order to prove some kind of ability. It is best served aiming that experience at those that may need it.

I have made no comments disputing any help given to this company/person and I have simply given my own  ideas/suggestions, albeit in brief.  It certainly is not my business to go into great depths as to how one should go about their own business when, I thought, they were already in business so should be aware of their own costing.

It is always difficult to give complete and concise answers when questions are raised such as "I would like some advice on negotiating" This question should not have been asked since the company should have known - they already have clients - it is simply applying  what they had learnt from that experience.

"I have a number of domestic cleaners that clean private individual houses" - What has this to do with letzclean actual question? There is no direct link, so again a puzzling one.   I would like to stress that I am in no way disrespecting letzcleans thread - I realise it can be difficult to write down at times what one specifically needs. I merely refer to this to answer some of your comments..

I'm sure the comments you have made will benefit letzclean, I hope they do, it certainly is an opportunity for them not to miss....I'm sure some here would die for that amount of work!

[Paul-T]

Stephen

Your comments are noted.

I wonder where I may have disputed what one hour meant to each and everyone of us? Of course an hour is different to evey individual.

Having an hourly rate does, in no way, imply everyone works at the same speed. You have a lot to learn if you want to clean for some major companies - many of them today will request you break down your tender into a transparent file. They want to see every single cost, including the hourly rate. What will you tell them at any meetings you may have with them if you're faced with that?

I also wonder where on this thread have I suggested working with someone else's materials?

Maybe you should read this entire thread again, or if you wish to try and create some form of conflict here by the amount of nonsense you have spurted out to me then please go elsewhere.....you sure ain't being helpful on this one!

"But as you say its opinion." - thank goodness!

[Bertie Boo]

Erm paul, you've managed to entirely mis-understand what i've said.

Your choice of words and the anger in your tone of the same makes me realise the type of person you are (and its a type i've met before) so there's no point me saying anything else to you on this, i'd just be wasting my time.

Dont take yourself (or this forum) so seriously.

Stephen

[Paul-T]

Stephen

If my message appears one of anger it would be wrong - its in fact entirely the opposite. Though as anyone will tell you vocal tone is not one that can be read....it has to be heard and that is where mis-understandings can happen - for that I make no apology.

My "tone" was one of questioning due to the content of your posting. You seem to have an issue with time, an hourly rate is just that - this does not indicate that we all work at the same time.

You are, supposedly, a professional person who has clients, the lack of understanding of the hourly rate on your part does suggest you are new to cleaning? Forgive me if I am mistaken.

As for use of using someone else's materials - I'm not sure where that discussion originated from or why it was ever mentioned.

Maybe you have hit the nail on the head and why certain individuals, on here, come across as very unprofessional simply because they don't take what they do seriously. I'm not here to rock the boat or to step on anyone's toes but I do prefer to give out advice that would benefit others whilst not holding their hands through the learning process.  It does bring about the question as to who actually knows what - I have seen some here that have clients yet know very little about advertising, NI, tax, tenders or any forms relating to cleaning - now that is worrying and disturbing for the rest of the industry - though I guess that is why this forum is aimed more at the smaller end of the market than the more professional one. The information is out there, free for all, and believe me a lot is a lot more helpful than what I have discovered here - some people would be better doing there own research over the internet rather than relying on others here.

Its even more laughable when some treat the whole industry and this forum as if it is some kind of 'private club' - giving out particular (helpful!) material to some but not to others - what is that all about? In fact I have seen messages relating to this very same topic....interesting.

I make no apology for this message but it is how I see this forum..........so where cleaning is concerened and where people need advice then I'm glad I take that seriously. 

[Samuel]

Crikey!!  Its about time I interjected.

£8.50 per hour AND in London?

Post tenancy cleans and common way cleans are all I do as the money to be had are incredibly high.

I work on the south coast and my hourly rate just happens to work out at an average of £24.00 per hour. This is not a brag but a fact.

I don't charge an hourly rate as such; I price per job. Your client should never be aware of how much you earn per hour in my opinion.

When you go into the letting agency with your business card, public liabilty etc, submit a rates table for guidance: (my prices)

                                Light clean                         Deep clean

1 Bed property           £80:00                                 £110:00
2 Bed property           £105:00                               £140:00
3 Bed property           £130:00                               £170:00
4 Bed property           £180:00                               £240:00
5 Bed property           £225:00                               £300:00

Carpet steam cleans:

1 Bed property          £110:00
2 Bed property          £140:00
3 Bed property          £170:00
4 Bed property          £240:00
5 Bed property          £280:00

Instruct the letting agencies that the prices are only a guide and that it also incorporates their 10% commission fee.

My fixed costs per year are about £3000, and my actual running costs (fuel and cleaning materials) are about 2.5% of the gross.

Good luck

[absolutecleaning]

i agree samuel

wherever possible i will quote a price rather than an hourly rate - even though it does mean having to visit the site twice - once to quote and once to carry out the work

£8.50 seems ridiculously low - either to work for yourself or try and make a profit employing others to work

[Paul-T]

Samuel - I disagree and clearly you have yet to deal with any kind of professional facilities.

Most major companies and organnisation where there are facilities you will be often required to show all costs - you have no choice in the matter....unless you prefer to stay in your comfort zone?

I urge those wishing to expand when they are ready to get use to revealing a break down in cost, including hourly rate and what your cleaners are paid.....including profit.

[Robert Parry]

Paul,

Much of what you say makes sense, in fact read between the lines of my posts, and you will find that we pretty much agree with each other!

You state that Health & Safety costs nothing; can I ask then why clients often spend thousands and thousands of pounds on H & S Consultants?

If we could all obtain H & S info of the net and forums such as this, companies could save themselves sometimes hundreds of thousands of pounds, thus increasing their profits and decreasing their own workload!
Everyone would be doing it, if you get on very well with a current customer of your own, just ask them how they deal with Health & Safety, 99 times out of a hundred, they will tell you that they use outside services or consultants, no one in business spends money needlessly, the reason in this case, is quite simple, the protection of life and limb, and the protection of one's business.

The fines that can be levied for breaking H & S rules are quite frightening!

Regarding certificates (training), how else are you going to prove that you are competent to do the job, that you have received H & S training?

Do you honestly believe that “I trained him/her" is enough to convince your clients, your insurance company or the HSE?

You also mention professionalism, how does that sit with the fact that many, many people within the industry have no training or recognised qualifications?
Yes experience does count, of course it does, but why do Bics and the NTO and lots of others, offer training if it is of no use.

The reason I mentioned the bank, was for the software that was available at a small cost, which would, for anyone reading the post point them in the right direction, regarding H & S, accounting etc, the info, from what I have seen, covers the legislation, not particularly well set out, but it seems to be all there, which in my opinion, is far better than using someone’s posted Health & Safety Policy statement, which of course, is not a "Health & Safety Policy"

Regarding breaking "any laws" Health & Safety legislation is quite clear, All self employed people must adhere to the legislation, All employers, have a legal duty to train their staff in H & S, All employers have to have a written H & S Policy if they employ more than 5 staff, not a policy statement, but a real H & S Policy, firms also have a legal duty to implement safe working practices and train their staff in these safe working practices.

I am also sorry to hear that you think that I am talking down to you personally or indeed Letzclean or anyone else, that was not my intention at all, please accept my apologies.

Lots of people, enter this industry, because they perceive it to be a low cost entry into the business world, get yourself a vacuum, mop bucket, some cloths, an ad in yellow pages or a website, some leaflets etc, and away you go, yes many, many people have started this way, but the legislation is becoming more draconian, with each passing month, surely its time we all started to take this seriously?

Regarding hourly rates, Paul is quite right in this respect, some prospects will insist on having all this financial information at tender time, this is not new, normally only happens on the bigger sites though. It’s not too difficult a process, with a semi decent accounting knowledge, one of the good points of this is that it allows the client to make reasonable comparisons between contractors, based on what they promise, and what they can actually deliver according to their own costings!

Regards,

Rob

[Art]

Crikey!!  Its about time I interjected.

£8.50 per hour AND in London?

Post tenancy cleans and common way cleans are all I do as the money to be had are incredibly high.

I work on the south coast and my hourly rate just happens to work out at an average of £24.00 per hour. This is not a brag but a fact.

I don't charge an hourly rate as such; I price per job. Your client should never be aware of how much you earn per hour in my opinion.

When you go into the letting agency with your business card, public liabilty etc, submit a rates table for guidance: (my prices)

                                Light clean                         Deep clean

1 Bed property           £80:00                                 £110:00
2 Bed property           £105:00                               £140:00
3 Bed property           £130:00                               £170:00
4 Bed property           £180:00                               £240:00
5 Bed property           £225:00                               £300:00

Carpet steam cleans:

1 Bed property          £110:00
2 Bed property          £140:00
3 Bed property          £170:00
4 Bed property          £240:00
5 Bed property          £280:00

Instruct the letting agencies that the prices are only a guide and that it also incorporates their 10% commission fee.

My fixed costs per year are about £3000, and my actual running costs (fuel and cleaning materials) are about 2.5% of the gross.

Good luck

Hi Samuel,

Your deep clean prices?? How can you charge those prices and end up with £24 per hour? Even if there only guide prices, surely you can't up them that much.

We clean for  LA's that deal with the upmarket properties. Swimming pools etc.. and there's no way that we would ever average £24 per hour, and that's not me under charging either as we're expensive in comparison to most companies in our area.

I'm not saying that you don't get £24, i'm more curious as to how you manage to charge like that and complete deep cleans for that price. To deep clean a 1 bed for £110 at that rate is around 5 hours

Arthur