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groundhog

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2007, 09:39:19 am »
My point is that we have a very good reason for using wfp upstairs ie safety, but downstairs there is no safety issue, so as most customers prefer a trad finish, and they are more likely to be downstairs at the time of cleaning, so I give them what they want and clean trad to give them good instant results!! ;D

matt

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2007, 08:47:33 pm »
My point is that we have a very good reason for using wfp upstairs ie safety, but downstairs there is no safety issue, so as most customers prefer a trad finish, and they are more likely to be downstairs at the time of cleaning, so I give them what they want and clean trad to give them good instant results!! ;D


this is a very good point, ive been toying with the idea of WFP up and down for about 12 months now

Ive even start on a few select area's, ive had little complaints ( today i had 1, i did the lounge window and she phoned me up in about 20 mins and said they were left wet, i explained, i went back and had 1 run of dirty water that had come from under the rubber seal, it was smack bang in the middle of the front window  ::) ::) just my luck, i explained about the cleaning of the rubbers etc etc and then did it the trad way

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2007, 09:09:57 pm »
hi i see here we have another one of these pointless debates! i was trad for 8 years changed to wfp 2 years ago now i have never regretted it ! i am now earning double what i did trad and i am now able to go for bigger more lucrative contracts something i could not do trad . so if you want to use ladders its up to you i am myself quite happy using poles each to their own !

groundhog

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2007, 10:14:32 pm »
Can't you read Mr Tartan!!!!!! ;D nobody has mentioned using ladders, simply using wfp upstairs due to health and safety and trad downstairs to please the customer!! Read the posts carefully before replying in future ;)

Count Phil

  • Posts: 656
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2007, 12:15:06 pm »
Whoever said that customers are more worried about us earning more than leaving them wet is soooo right.

It also happens when you get a new vehicle. One asked for a price drop when a turned up in my new van. One asked to go every other time when she saw it. No to both.

I didn't beleive it, but people are really funny. They may be in a mansion, but they see you doing well and get all funny. they see you do the street in a morning and do the maths and conclude that you earn twice as much as you do.

*foxman

  • Posts: 250
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 12:21:25 pm »
i am now able to go for bigger more lucrative contracts something i could not do trad

I don't there will be any such thing in the near future, as more and more turn to WFP, prices will become lower and lower for big contracts as the work is easier to do and the marketplace becomes more competitive.

The big money was made about 10 years ago when owning a WFP system ment you could do away with cherry pickers, etc but still factor the access hire into the quote!

KarlJones

  • Posts: 394
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2007, 01:35:03 pm »
The way I see it with WFP,  as time goes by then more will convert however the customer will get more and more used to it being done that way. 

This in turn means that as time goes by more and more customers will expect WFP on all the windows.  For some people the difference in speed between trad and WFP pole methods is massive, for others there is not a lot of difference.  However in truth the difference between a slow WFP and a fast WFP is less than the difference between slow and fast trad.  In fact, slow WFP is not far off an experienced Trad.

There is basically four types of WFP folks but most of them are a mixture of some of them.
Just got into the business and jumped straight into WFP.
Too slow with trad gear.
Ladders are too risky.
Too many unreachable windows.

The first people to jump to WFP were mostly doing it due to the last two reasons, they decided ladders were too risky and wanted to reach more windows.  The later guys fall into either people who did not see the point in buying WFP at first as they were fast enough and WFP did not seem to be as good for the customer OR the too slow guys.

The first people to move and also the "too slow and new" seem to be the sort of people who try to do 100% WFP (i said try).  But it stands to reason, that the fast traditional guys who did not move until lately, or have yet to move, have little faith in the system.

This lack of faith is transfered onto the customer and it often makes little sense.  We have always got most of our customers through them not being able to do the upstairs, and not because they do not like cleaning the downstairs windows (although this does amplify the reason). 

When you have transfered your lack of faith in the system onto the customer (often this takes place only inside your head) you become worried that the customer is going to react in a negative way to the system.  This is not good.

Logically, the average person in the street is not worried if there windows get wet,  they are not overly worried if they stay wet. All a customer is bothered about is "are they clean?" and not "are they dry?". But as window cleaners who are traditional have, over a long period of time, implanted a different sort of logic (wet windows mean marks) and it is the window cleaner that is the "expert" you end up with a window cleaner that does not like leaving wet windows.

What I am trying to say is this...
The argument between trad and WFP downstairs takes place inside the head of a window cleaner that has no faith in the system and only inside his head, no where else.

You don't believe me? Then ask yourself this. 
If you knew, 100% that WFP got windows 10 times cleaner (im not saying it does) than traditional methods, which would you use?

Obviously you would use WFP, if the customer said anything you would explain to them that this system is better, you would tell them straight that you have done lots of research and read lots of studies that scientifically prove that pure water left on glass is cleaner than soap residue left on glass even after someone has removed almost all the soap residue.

But because a lot of window cleaners have spent a long long time convincing themselves that water left on glass is a bad thing they find it hard to commit themselves 100%.  Pure and simple, they have not got enough faith that it will be clean when it drys.  Someone said that most customers prefer a traditional finish and they state this as fact.  Yet I doubt very much that the WFP downstairs guys have lost 51% of there business to traditional guys or had 51% of the customers state that they want trad downstairs so plain and simple, it is not a fact.   All they are doing is transferring their belief that trad is better than WFP onto the image of what they believe the customer thinks and as a result the brain spits out a result that "most customers prefer traditional".  Maybe the brain has spat out the correct result, maybe not, all I am saying is ask yourself who is giving you this result.  Is it "most" of your customers, is it "a window cleaners forum" or is it "yourself".

I think its the window cleaner that has anxiety over wet windows, not the customer.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8646
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2007, 07:43:26 pm »
My point is that we have a very good reason for using wfp upstairs ie safety, but downstairs there is no safety issue, so as most customers prefer a trad finish, and they are more likely to be downstairs at the time of cleaning, so I give them what they want and clean trad to give them good instant results!! ;D

Hi Groundhog

trouble is that I am too short to reach the tops of the bottom windows trad so need a step ladder anyway. So it doesn't make sense using WFP tops and dragging steps and another set of equipment around to do the bottoms another way. Switching to a smaller pole length and doing it WFP makes much more sense to me.

Secondly, alot of trad cleaners do not clean the frames, so your customer will soon be complaining about the tops looking better than the downstairs. They will quickly forget the reason for your doing the bottoms trad then.

Spruce
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2007, 08:58:50 pm »
When you weren't posting Carl (you went AWOL for a couple of months) i missed you.


Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2007, 10:36:27 pm »
Can't you read Mr Tartan!!!!!! ;D nobody has mentioned using ladders, simply using wfp upstairs due to health and safety and trad downstairs to please the customer!! Read the posts carefully before replying in future ;)


WHAT EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As i said pointless debate.

KarlJones

  • Posts: 394
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2007, 11:02:50 pm »
you mean I typed all that for nothing !!!

lol :D
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2007, 11:04:27 pm »
Most of us went WFP to make more money, safety hardly came into it, after all we had been using ladders for years an never gave it a thought.
Some people have very short memories, they are pleased as punch when their minging frames are cleaned spotless, but soon forget how they looked before.
A percentage, and quite a big one, would be happy if we only came round every 3 months. a lot resent paying for monthly cleans, when the results are nowhere near as dramatic as they were after the first clean.
I never get knocked back on my bi-monthly cleans. I really think that's the best way to go on domestic, charge them a lot more, and come round a lot less often.
They will see the difference every time you have been. Dai

Paul Coleman

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2007, 11:05:09 pm »
you mean I typed all that for nothing !!!

lol :D


Yep  :)

matt

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2007, 11:10:58 pm »
Most of us went WFP to make more money, safety hardly came into it, after all we had been using ladders for years an never gave it a thought.
Some people have very short memories, they are pleased as punch when their minging frames are cleaned spotless, but soon forget how they looked before.
A percentage, and quite a big one, would be happy if we only came round every 3 months. a lot resent paying for monthly cleans, when the results are nowhere near as dramatic as they were after the first clean.
I never get knocked back on my bi-monthly cleans. I really think that's the best way to go on domestic, charge them a lot more, and come round a lot less often.
They will see the difference every time you have been. Dai

we will be on the slippery slope that will be once or twice a year, we will call you when we want them done, which is the practise in the USA and austrailia

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2007, 11:15:32 pm »
GROUNDHOG :P
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2007, 11:22:36 pm »
Spot on Dai.

groundhog

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2007, 11:30:20 pm »
Karl that is the most boring post I have ever read :-\ I fell asleep quarter of the way through it, take my advice and keep it short and to the point ;)

Spruce I always clean the frames trad or wfp, and the customers really appreciate the trad downstairs, especially the old dears ;D and I can clean just as fast using trad downstairs ;D

Tartan that was a totally pointless post!!!!!!!!!!! >:( I am not debating anything, I am just pointing out the fact that customers prefer the instant finish that they get from trad ;)

Gaza  :-* :P ;D

NWH WHAT??? ??? try a dictionary next time ;)


avesovum

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2007, 11:53:14 pm »
Im a newbie to window cleaning and went straight for the wfp. I started in april 2007 and have 127 customers that all had trad cleaners in the past. some customers were sceptical at first but I got over the dry look bit by cleaning one of there windows including the frame, free of charge gave them an explanation letter how the water works, went back the next day and they were amazed how clean there windows looked, I havnt had a no thankyou yet. Sorry trad cleaners eventually you will have to convert to wfp even if it hurts.

groundhog

Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2007, 11:57:23 pm »
Please read the posts carefully before replying newbie >:( I am wfp, but to keep my customers happy I use trad on some downstairs windows, is that allright with you?  >:(

KarlJones

  • Posts: 394
Re: I Lost a customer today!
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2007, 11:59:39 pm »
groundhog, ;)
just for you, short and to the point.

By doing the downstairs in trad, you are telling your customers that you have no faith in WFP.


You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.