Interested In Advertising? | Contact Us Here
Warning!

 

Welcome to Clean It Up; the UK`s largest cleaning forum with over 34,000 members

 

Please login or register to post and reply to topics.      

 

Forgot your password? Click here

Fast 1 *

  • Posts: 667
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2006, 11:32:02 am »
OK Neil I was talking about a van mount or even worse a trolley, I would agree that a back pack is probably quicker to set up than other wfp systems, but there is still no way that it would be faster than trad on the houses that I am refering to, not if you are cleaning them properly. And I don't have to keep returning to the van to top up with water.

Be careful though as I have heard that back packs are very bad for your back, and just imagine if you tripped up with one attached to your back, that could be very nasty indeed! :'(
like a turtle
wildstyles

Paul Coleman

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2006, 11:32:09 am »
I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder ;D  There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!! ???

I am lost with all this talk and bravado about being a "real man"??

If it is safe then go up the ladder, if not use and alternative method, simple!

In my days of ladder work I would be footed on a slippery surface. one thing was for certain, I would't even think about doing it myself without footing, thats not brave thats just stupid and for the days that I worked on my own I would simply tell the customer I would not be doing that window today as the ladder isn't safe.

Being a "real man" or not as has been posted, the fact of the matter is you can't earn money while sat in hospital with a broken back or leg etc.....

Whatever method you use should be safe.

Trev



I've always worked alone Trev apart from the very occasional very large job where it's better with two.  On jobs where I was concerned about the footing, I have used a pole with applicator/squeegee on the end - swivloc if the angle is difficutt.  I was doing this before WFP was around too.  I couldn't do such a good job with it as by hand but I would just tell the customer that it was to be done that way or left.  I had my near misses early on in my business and I learnt from them.  I did have a near miss a couple of years ago too which was a totally different type of accident.  I also learned from that one.  Sometimes people don't get the chance to learn from near misses unfortunately.

james cairns

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2006, 11:38:00 am »
guys you are lucky you can clean 2 houses with a backpack setting no 2 and as you go down the line of houses the distance getting water is further

I have backpacks with small di fitted to a trolley with 2 containers and top up as we go once the 2 containers run out cant be bothered running back to get fresh containers just as easy to connect to the customer outside tap and refill the containers thru the small di

in ten houses that is 5  to 6 backpack refills I keep the backpack at 12lts to keep the weight down, and I did a race with a good trad window cleaner and he left me for dust, the time of gear down refill back on move about on small 2 bed houses
cannot match a good window cleaner with years experience, and by the way guys you should be doing 8 an hour of this type of wirk

2 bed terrace or 2 bed semi bottoms you stand and do because they are easy to reach so I dont think my figures are over the top

lets keep wfp were it should be commercial and large domestic and we will all get on

jinky

Paul Coleman

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2006, 11:41:58 am »
Its not bravado, its just that some of us are fed up with all this namby pamby talk of how dangerous ladders are, a lot of this comes from wfp 
suppliers to persuade wc to buy their systems. As I have said before ladders are safe when used correctly.

As for wfp being twice as fast as trad on most properties all I can say is b******s!!!!!!!!!  As an example I have a road of small 2 bed houses on my round 10 houses in total, it takes me about 10 minutes per house with trad, with wfp it would take me that long to get set up and ready to go on the first house! I would like to see a wfper do these houses in 5mins! It cannot be done, I would expect it would take more like 15-20 mins with wfp. Next time I am there I will try it wfp to see how long it takes and report back.

I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker. ;)

Apart from first cleans, I can only think of four jobs of mine that are slower with WFP.  They are small, old  houses that are close to each other which involve a certain amount of flat roof climbing and have some sashed windows.  I do these ones trad not because of the time taken but because of the general awkwardness with WFP.  I have to get the ladder off anyway for these due to the flat roofs so I just end up using the ladder on all the upper windows.  There are only eight top windows between the four houses and four of those are over flat roofs anyway.
I'm certainly not anti-trad.  I used it full-time from 1991 until last Autumn.  However, I believe I have now found a better way.  I'm not brainwashed either but remembering some of the crazy things I did on a ladder before I gained experience, maybe my brain needed a good wash.

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2006, 11:44:34 am »
Your right you have to be carefull with backpacks, they are very heavy when fully loaded with water.

I use the van mounted system most of the time, but I do use the backpack every day, its on selected propertys that are awkward or on their own. I know tosh uses one all day, but I would not like to use it all day. But it comes in very handy and I would not like to be with out it.

Nel.

pjulk

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2006, 11:54:39 am »
I know of a few people in my area that have changed over to WFP and none i know have gone back.

Most jobs can be done quicker with WFP if you have the right setup for the job.

It takes less than a minute to connect hose reel and pull the hose to the job.

Take pole with you and in less than a minute you are cleaning.

Ok some jobs have stuff in the way but it should not take much longer.

I do have a couple of jobs i use ladders for just because i would need a ladder for a flat roof.
So if i need to get a ladder off i will do the rest of the job with ladder.

Paul

james cairns

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2006, 11:57:16 am »
neil this is not a competition of wfp versus traditional
it is basically guys views of what they have experienced with wfp in domestic

we all use wfp and find it a great tool, doing contracts that before where a nightmare but we are realistic and know when to go back to traditional to earn the pennies that pay the bills rather than  mess about all day trying to justify I have bought the product now I need to get maximum production from it

I cant see lads with our experience of years behind us not carrying ladder work out in a safe manner, as I said in earlier posts I do not take chances and get the backpack out for the odd window before I start-- stuff as you know

wet decking, roofs, slippy surfaces but come on
on straight standard work
are you really going to be afraid of ladders when you have liminated the dangers
some how i dont think so

jinky

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2006, 12:42:27 pm »
Jinky I am not trying to turn this into a wfp v trad debate.

But if I see a posting that I think is wrong I will chip in with my pennyworth. A lot of first time starters into w/c might look at this forum for advice. They have a choice of how to clean a window and the advice given to them should be honest and fair. I think some of the postings like squeaks are just anti wfp, they are not a fair evalution of wfp. How can it be hes never used it. I do not not pass comments on something that I do not have an indepth knoweledge of.

Some may decide to go back to trad after trying wfp, But to be fair how long have they given wfp a fair go. Groundhog mentioned in a posting it would take about 10 mins to set up. A Completley WRONG stamentment in my book and misleading.

I have nothing against trad w/c, I can see why some w/c prefer it to wfp. I am still doing odd houses trad. I bought a brand new ladder at xmas after my investment in wfp. I do a row of 6 terrace houses trad out of choice, thats because its awkward with wfp in their tiny yards round the back. But thats my choice. I still can do those 6 houses in an hour and at £6 an house its £36.

I know on my round as far as speed goes on domestic houses wfp wipes the floor with trad. Thats my experince and all my freinds who have moved on to wfp.

I am like a piece of Germanic enginering, I am 100% efficent in whatever method I clean windows, I find someone stating trad is faster on trad hard to beleive, I helped a freind  on his wfp round and his work is scattered, but wfp is so much faster.

I have on my domestic round this year earned in 35 weeks what it used to take me 52 weeks of trad w/c. Thats working less hours each week and not being as tired due to me going up and down a ladder. Thats the diffrence wfp has made to me, a normall bloke. Their is no way I will go back to just trad w/c. NO WAY.

Nel.

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2006, 03:20:20 pm »
Ah Mr Foxman you are so wide of the mark its untrue.

Your first Point. I think a sign written van with a good tank set up looks far more professional then driving a car with ladders on, I think someone cleaning wfp looks far better then someone running up and down a ladder. I allways feel more professional with a pole in my hand then when I am useing a ladder. But that particuler point is down to personal perspective.
 
Any Fool can spray water on a window, your right their but any fool can go up a ladder and try to clean a window too. Has for three cleans to get it right, Remember that is advice given to someone who is just starting wfp with no experince. You can practice at home but it does take time to learn how to clean them to their pristine best. If anyone starts trad w/c it will take even more time to truly master w/c  then with wfp. With trad w/c  the varations in the weather have such a massive effect on the results you get on glass, IE W/c on a red hot day with a window basking in direct sunlight is completley diffrent fom  trying to clean it in freezing Fog, Very windy days takes an awfull lot of skill with squegee and ladder work.

When someone is competent with wfp they will get first Cleans done right first time.

Has for passing your costs on to customers, not everyone passes those costs on. None of my freinds passed their set up costs on. I did, It was a Buisness  decision to do so. It was 2 yrs since I last increased my prices, So it was more to do with natural timeing, then anything else.

You are living in cloud cukoo land if you think any Buisness that makes a signifcant investment in its product or quality of its service is not going to increase its prices to compensate.

The market can only get to a certain saturation point. This is due to a new w/c finding it very hard to get established if there is no work for them to pick up. They will pick up a little work and then stop because they cannot develop their round. W/Cleaning is hard work, the winter sorts people out, if they are very cheap they find it very diffcult to survive fiancially in winter with bad weather and early nights.

There are many w/c out there with several w/c on estates, so customers have a choice of how much they want to pay and the method they prefer. My round has gone from strength to strength since wfp. I have got more new customers through recomendtions then I ever did trad cleaning. The customers now appreciate their sparkingly upvc frames which I could not clean trad and compete with the price they get them done for now.

Nel. (Sour grapes I think)

williamx

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2006, 03:59:23 pm »
Its not bravado, its just that some of us are fed up with all this namby pamby talk of how dangerous ladders are, a lot of this comes from wfp 
suppliers to persuade wc to buy their systems. As I have said before ladders are safe when used correctly.

As for wfp being twice as fast as trad on most properties all I can say is b******s!!!!!!!!!  As an example I have a road of small 2 bed houses on my round 10 houses in total, it takes me about 10 minutes per house with trad, with wfp it would take me that long to get set up and ready to go on the first house! I would like to see a wfper do these houses in 5mins! It cannot be done, I would expect it would take more like 15-20 mins with wfp. Next time I am there I will try it wfp to see how long it takes and report back.

I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker. ;)

I think I very slow to set up.

I mean all I do is drive up to the house, stop, get-out and open side or back door, switch on pump, grap hold of pole and micro-bore hose, there is 120 metres on hose reel so if I can reach any windows within 120 metres of the van without me needing to move it, I then walk to house and start cleaning top windows, by the time I have got this far you should have the ladder off the roof rack and be attaching the bucket belt around your waist.

When ever you turn up to clean a property,  the first thing you need to do is to plan the most safest, efficient and fastest way of carrying out you work.

One on One if you had a terrace house a trad cleaner would be quicker than a wfp cleaner, but also a wfp cleaner would be able to clean them windows that a ladder man sometimes cannot reach.

On a row of houses then it would be more in favour of the wfp cleaner, on any thing above the first storey then wfp cleaning comes into its element, and there is no faster or safer method than wfp.

david68

  • Posts: 865
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2006, 04:31:02 pm »
Hi WilliamX

Thanks for email can i ring you Monday evening?

Dave
David

www.ccwin.co.uk

My learning hobby
www.dbritweb.com

williamx

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2006, 05:00:47 pm »
Hi WilliamX

Thanks for email can i ring you Monday evening?

Dave

No problem

Paul Coleman

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2006, 05:40:13 pm »
I fail to see how people think that having a wfp set up is 'more professional'. In fact if anything it could be seen as less so. Any fool can spray water with a brush on to a window and a lot of fools are. The amount of people who take 3+ cleans to get a good result is a joke, how is that being more professional?

The amount of window cleaners who spend thousands on a system then pass the cost over to their domestic customers is shocking. It'll basically amount to them cutting their own throats as the market becomes more and more saturated and prices start to drop dramatically.

Can you think of any industry where the job becomes easier and quicker to do (using WFP) and yet the charge to do the work goes up!? Common economic sense says this is not sustainable, and WFP prices will in effect go down compared to traditional.

Although you make some good points, I feel the need to say a few things about them.  The bit about looking more professional is subjective.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc.  Also, there's a bit more to it then spraying water with a brush.  If it were just about that, everyone would get the first cleans right first time.  I have struggled with some first cleans and been fine with others.  As I've gained experience with WFP, my first cleans have become much better - often as good as a maintenance clean - though admittedly, some types of windows/frames take a bit longer to get perfect.  As for passing on the costs to the customer, I feel that there is a shared responsibility with this one.  So far, I haven't put up my prices to existing customers because usually, I can get through more work to compensate for the costs of setting up WFP (though until now, I've chosen to have more time off instead).  However, I have been pricing new work rather higher.  This is as much to do with the realisation that I've not been charging enough over the years - whether trad or WFP.
What I am now realising is that although I can do more work via WFP than I could with trad, I do need to earn a bit more.  This isn't just due to van/equipment costs but it's also due to the way my life has gone in recent years.
Another point I would like to make is that most businesses come under the microscope of changing govt regulations from time to time.  Window cleaning has always escaped this (assuming no employees).
Changed regulations often result in higher outgoings for businesses whether it be an increase in NI contributions, more stringent safety measures, higher requirement for paperwork, increased vehicle running costs due to fuel taxes, restrictions in driving hours, -  the list could go on.
It is debatable as to whether using a ladder is legal as a tool of first resort.  Some people feel (rightly or wrongly) that they have been pushed into WFP because of govt safety regulations.  Any cost that a business incurs due to more stringent regulations is reasonable to pass on to the customers.  The effect is lessened with WFP because it's possible to recoup some (perhaps even all) of that cost by getting through more work) but for many, price increases are necessary.
I'm tending to deal with it more by releasing my poorer paying work and only taking on better paying work.  This is not greed.  It's a matter of survival.  I've had too many difficulties by not looking after my own interests well enough.  The worm has now turned.

mark6765

  • Posts: 92
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2006, 05:47:12 pm »
when i do a row of terrace i just do all the fronts with me van mount. wfp
if i get me van in the middle i can do 8 without moveing the van.
my mate does the backs with a backpack.
hes a bit slower than me which gives me time to collect.
most terrace have 3 or 4 windows eachside.
its a 3 minute job for us. each house.
i sometimes walk along them doing tops, then come back down them doing bottoms. then collect or bill it.
it is slower if you have 1 terrace on its own. maybe 5 mins instead of 3.
but who wants 1 terrace on its own.
this work is still quick when i work on my own.
the only problem i do have is parking where i want to.
if i cnt park i move on and call back later.

P®oPole™

  • Posts: 985
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2006, 06:43:58 pm »
LOL  ;D foxman,

any fool can get a ladder a builders bucket with dirty water in and a squeegee, get out in his little car and call himself a "window cleaner".

A window cleaner that spends time and money to invest in quality equipment is in my book more profesinal in what he does and has a serious attituide to business.

Groundhog I can clean a five bed georgian in 15mins, your two bed terrace houses I would eat for breakfast with my van mount, I dont care what you say I would leave you standing. Would your 400ltrs last you all day on domestic, I know some it would as I've heard people say they only use 100 or so but I tell you now It wouldnt last me.

first cleans I can do in good time with exellent results, I dont need to do all that crap of leaving windows to drip I know that i can bring a window up mint first time without leaving it, enough water in my tank you see!!

tonylee

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2006, 07:13:16 pm »
hi david
have had mine for four weeks (pure freedom system) hated the first week as i offered every one a free clean who were not happy. (dont you just love old people and change!) i was not rinsing the frames down well enouh and the results were quite  poor. that has been put right now and every one on my round are happy if not astounded by its results. bear with it fella i would not change back now
tony

groundhog

Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2006, 10:03:50 pm »
Foxman you are absolutely right, a good trad window cleaner looks much more proffessional than a wfp cleaner splashing water everywhere and leaving everything wet! :o many customers dislike this. And yes any fool can use a wfp, wash the frame scrub the glass and then rinse, there you go nothing to it, the only trouble is you then have to just hope they dry ok. When I leave my windows I can see with my own eyes that they are spotless and that includes the frames, on the first clean with trad I spend some time to get the frames nice and clean, after that I just have to give them a quick wipe with a damp scrim to keep them nice. ;)

david68

  • Posts: 865
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2006, 12:05:29 am »
Hi all

Didn't think this post would lead to some of these text arguments.
But ha every as the wright to write their epionions.

Also i have read all replys and do respect all of your comments.


Dave
David

www.ccwin.co.uk

My learning hobby
www.dbritweb.com

geefree

  • Posts: 6180
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2006, 08:26:47 pm »
Are you causing trouble Dave :D :D

david68

  • Posts: 865
Re: From WFP back to Trad
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2006, 08:35:54 pm »
Who me  ::)

Oh what a great site .

Dave
David

www.ccwin.co.uk

My learning hobby
www.dbritweb.com