[Paul Coleman]

I can see where Squeeky is coming from, in fact he has made a lot of valid points, i dread going to some jobs now with wfp, i must stress these are different to the ones i dreaded when i was trad.

Some points he made are very valid indeed, i wont highlight them all, but the point about trailing hoses is very valid.I think i will cause more danger for my customer with my hose than i ever did with my ladder , how many times have you tugged your hose for that bit more , even though you are pulling it around three sides of an house,

Are you sure your customer is not about to step over the hose as you yank it, be honest weve all pulled the hose blind.
I have noticed some of the so called wfp experts have only been wfp for less than 12 months and suddenly know all the dangers of wfp, I dont think so!!!!!
I was 7 years trad and was still learning the dangers right to the end and that was just a simple ladder.
I wish every one would realy examine the points being raised rather just defending at all costs.

Dave

Quite right too David.  You new non-smokers have to stick together I suppose    .
To cut down a little on the risk from hoses, I am going to make a small change.  So far, I have the hosereel by the van.  I have to pull the hosereel out as far as I need it before putting the rubber safety mat over it on the pavement.  This means that I leave an unattended hose across the public footpath for a short while.  This is because the hose patching the gap between van and reel is quite short.  I will now make up a much longer piece to go between van and reel so that I can lay the mat over it before I unreel the hose.  It will need to be fairly long to allow for a wide grass verge and a wide footpath as a worst case scenario.  Obviously the risks on the premises would still be present but at least the public area would be made safe.  Also, I don't pull the hose around too many corners as it's hard work.  I tend to pull a load of hose after me then take it to the next corner (not always of course.  This means that when I am pulling on a hose I am only tightening a length I can see.  Of course I don't always do this but at least doing it when I feel there is a risk present will help to reduce that risk.

[Trevor Knight]

Can't see the point in this thread to be honest.
Do what you want, but don't ram it down other people's throats as being better.

I only respond because I don't like the holier-than-thou condescending attitude of wfp users.

Excuse me but if you bother to look through this thread the first person to start being condesending about the method was in fact you!!! Read your first two postings. First posting you made inacurate accusations and in the second you were rude!

Talk about pot calling kettle black.


Nice to see I'm not on my own on this one though.
There's more trad defending going on than just me on here.....

Anyway, anyone got a "lock" button?

(sorry to wfp users for using big words)

Thanks for you apology regarding big words but yet again you can't keep your argument civil!
I see your only reply to my posting was based on "afraid of change", why didn't you answer any other points I raised, let me guess, you couldn't be bothered ZZZZzzzzz same old, same old.

I have cleaned windows traditionally for 15 years and have earned the right to talk about ladder work. I have, and always will, maintained that WFP has a place in this industry and brings with it many benefits. I have NEVER said it is a total replacement for ladders as this is not true.

Instead of unjustified endorsements regarding a system you don't own why not come and spend the day with my guys. I will even pay you for your day so you don't lose out and perhaps instead of shouting from the roof  top with a blindfold fixed in place you can see what benefits there are to everyone in this industry. Take a look at my avatar, my van has a ladder on it, not for show but because we use it to go over roofs, climb onto flat roofs and go over gates just as I would do if I was traditional!

God I am glad I am going away for a week.

Have a good week everyone 

[neil100]

I dont have an holier then thou attitude to wfp.

I dont look down on anyone who wants to stay trad.

But its wrong when someone slags wfp off all the time when he has never used it. How can you honestly give a fair and even assessment of wfp if you have never used it.

I can give a fair and honest assessment of both methods. I have cleaned trad w/c for over 26 yrs. How many on this forum can beat that for experince?

I still carry my ladders and use them at some point every day. I have just picked up a job this morning for £60.00, its Trad for now but I have said he can have the job done for £50.00 if he wants wfp.

I bought a new ladder at christmas costing over £200 despite investing in wfp.

I have found wfp gives perfect results on 99.9% of windows I do. The windows that I have a problem with are done trad. Any windows that I cant reach with wfp on flat roofs are done trad. I use both systems in perfect harmony but most work is done wfp.

My health is the most important thing to me, and when I start a days work with my feet on the ground It feels great. I dont mind climbing ladders, but I dont want to do it all day long, wfp gives me the choice.

I am not wfp cos I am lazy or cant hack ladder work anymore. Thats far from the truth, only last Saturday I did a 26 mile run which took me over three mountions in 5 1/2 hours.

I have freinds who are wfp only and they have no intention of risking their health for anyone or at any price. They have cheap systems in their cars, about £700.00 for everything but can earn between £300 and £500 a day.

One young lad of 19yrs of age earned £500 on domestic work with wfp. His dad a w/c since 1978 earns about £120 a day trad w/c. Who would you rather be?

Nel.

[bumper]

if you earn £500.00 pound a day there will be no point coz the tax man will take 40% coz you will be in super taxs bracket

[Sir Squeaky]

I know Bumper, I know.... :

Trev:
My 2nd post? Yes I was rude. I shouldn't have been, but as usual I was told how great wfp is, when I'm not interested.

But my 1st post? Inaccurate accusations? I gave the pros and cons as asked.
If it showed up a few people then that's not my fault.
I gave an honest view of the pros and cons of both methods.

and Nel....(or Trev) I don't need to try it.
You think I haven't seen it and it's results enough times already....?
It doesn't impress me enough to spend lots of money on a machine to have to service and rely on.

I prefer my method and results, and I'm just as quick generally.
Thanks, but no thanks.

[neil100]

Bumper.

Your wrong in asumeing he will be paying 40% tax. The lad only works part time.Some w/cleaners will work 3 days what he can earn in a day. He works one and half weeks a month. To earn the same money in another job he would be working full time. He counts his free time as more important to him then being at work,so the faster he works the more free time he has.

You want to stay Trad Squeaks. Thats fine, its no skin off my nose. I can only comment on what wfp has done for me and my circle of freinds who have gone wfp. I know three of them would of stopped w/c if they had not switched. One was bored to death of climbing ladders all day so wfp as given his job a new lease of life. The other developed virtigo so he was going to stop w/c but wfp has been able to allow him to continue. My other mate who has w/c for over 20 yrs was looking to retrain himself as an electrician due to him being tired all the time climbing up and down ladders, wfp as allowed him to continue w/c and the quality of his home life as improved due to him not being knackerd.

For me, I am earning more money in less time and I am safer. When I have had people working withme which as been most of my working life w/c. I have allways done the upstairs windows, on average 200 times a day I climbed those ladders 5 days a week. My health risk due to falls as been greatly reduced.

Just cos I have got wfp I am not Trad bashing, I never have and never will, for me I am glad I have got it. I could sell my wfp gear tommorw And I would make a nice sized profit it on it. I wont because I like the system my customers like it, I have asked about 90% of them if they would like me to go back to Trad and the only answer I have had His NO.

I am happy with it, My customers are happy with it, My customer base is increasing rapidly cos of wfp. I know what side my bread is buttered on.

The only downside to trad and you might not of got their yet because I dont know how old you are, Is the older you get the slower you get. With Trad you have to push yourself harder to earn the same money and thats when tierdness will get you. When you start to feel that tierd you might consider wfp then. For now keep yourself safe.

Nel.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

Bumper.

Your wrong in asumeing he will be paying 40% tax. The lad only works part time.Some w/cleaners will work 3 days what he can earn in a day. He works one and half weeks a month. To earn the same money in another job he would be working full time. He counts his free time as more important to him then being at work,so the faster he works the more free time he has.

You want to stay Trad Squeaks. Thats fine, its no skin off my nose. I can only comment on what wfp has done for me and my circle of freinds who have gone wfp. I know three of them would of stopped w/c if they had not switched. One was bored to death of climbing ladders all day so wfp as given his job a new lease of life. The other developed virtigo so he was going to stop w/c but wfp has been able to allow him to continue. My other mate who has w/c for over 20 yrs was looking to retrain himself as an electrician due to him being tired all the time climbing up and down ladders, wfp as allowed him to continue w/c and the quality of his home life as improved due to him not being knackerd.

For me, I am earning more money in less time and I am safer. When I have had people working withme which as been most of my working life w/c. I have allways done the upstairs windows, on average 200 times a day I climbed those ladders 5 days a week. My health risk due to falls as been greatly reduced.

Just cos I have got wfp I am not Trad bashing, I never have and never will, for me I am glad I have got it. I could sell my wfp gear tommorw And I would make a nice sized profit it on it. I wont because I like the system my customers like it, I have asked about 90% of them if they would like me to go back to Trad and the only answer I have had His NO.

I am happy with it, My customers are happy with it, My customer base is increasing rapidly cos of wfp. I know what side my bread is buttered on.

The only downside to trad and you might not of got their yet because I dont know how old you are, Is the older you get the slower you get. With Trad you have to push yourself harder to earn the same money and thats when tierdness will get you. When you start to feel that tierd you might consider wfp then. For now keep yourself safe.

Nel.

nice one neil
that just about sums it up

argument won I think!!

[Clear Vision]

and Nel....(or Trev) I don't need to try it.
You think I haven't seen it and it's results enough times already....?
It doesn't impress me enough to spend lots of money on a machine to have to service and rely on.

I prefer my method and results, and I'm just as quick generally.
Thanks, but no thanks.

You stick In the mud! Change with the times squeek or be left behind in the trad age

[Cleaner Windows]

This is an amusing argument!! sueeky defends our territory well and has amusing "come backs" to the wfp commentors

I am still trad and will be for some time yet I should think. Yes, I fell off my ladder and broke my feet, but will still be going back to work doing trad wc'ing!

I would love to go out and buy wfp setup so I wouldnt have to risk it anymore, but I just cant afford it all.
At the end of the day, thats the first time I have fallen off in about 6 years...and I should think it will be the last (i hope) as I will be even more careful from now on

trad is good and keeps you fit, and at the same time looks good to people watching -- looks more of an art than wfp useage

I havent used wfp so cant really comment on saftey issues too much, although it has to be obvious that you dont use ladders so death must be ruled out 

[Sir Squeaky]

You stick In the mud! Change with the times squeek or be left behind in the trad age

Are you watching Trev?
This is the sort of uneducated crap I have to listen to. :

Left behind?
In what way?

More fool you if you want to be a sheep like the others.
Like I've said before, you'll end up ten-to-the-dozen.
Proper window cleaners like me will be sought after and be able to command a higher price.

I'll certainly laugh when your little bubble bursts.
It'll happen.
Open your eyes, you're falling for it.

[Clear Vision]

Oh squeek my man! So easy to wind up. I knew that would get you going 

No offence meant!

I still do traditional cleaning as I'm breaking in wfp to each one of my areas. Traditional Is great but so Is wfp.

Traditional will allways have a place In my van alongside my wfp setup.

Life Is very short squeek, as I unfortunatly know! Life Is also very precious.
If I can reduce the risk of injury to myself and other people surely that Is good?

[Sir Squeaky]

Well yes you reduce risk to yourself, but increase it for others with hoses and water everywhere.

Still, look after number 1.

I don't know why everyone's so scared of ladders all of a sudden.
You've got about 1,000 times more chance of crashing your car on the way to the job.

Anyway, I'm off for a day out.
Away from the "ARGUAMENTS"

[bumper]

Bumper.

Your wrong in asumeing he will be paying 40% tax. The lad only works part time.Some w/cleaners will work 3 days what he can earn in a day. He works one and half weeks a month. To earn the same money in another job he would be working full time. He counts his free time as more important to him then being at work,so the faster he works the more free time he has


There you go a lazy wfp window cleaner. argument  sorted ,works one and half weeks a month,now  thats a lazy wfp if ive ever seen one
 

[captain lard]

Re this trad v wfp battle it seems obvious to me that both have their place and its down to choice,as trad I cant get to every window or do some jobs,wfp might allow me that but I dont want to go the expense and hassle of getting the gear,I think I do a good job trad and am happy to use my ladders.The wfp users themselves admit wfp isnt the answer all the time and I have read posts where they have to use trad sometimes and still utilise a ladder now and then evenwhen using wfp.
End of the day we clean windows and make a living,its a choice regarding what method we all use and for whatever reason we have all made choices for varying factors,I think we should draw a line under this debate and acknowledge both forms have their merits and maybe the bad mouthing should be dropped cos its an argument that cant be won,stop baiting Squeaky and lets all have a cup of tea and or a beer.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

This is an amusing argument!! sueeky defends our territory well and has amusing "come backs" to the wfp commentors

I am still trad and will be for some time yet I should think. Yes, I fell off my ladder and broke my feet, but will still be going back to work doing trad wc'ing!

I would love to go out and buy wfp setup so I wouldnt have to risk it anymore, but I just cant afford it all.
At the end of the day, thats the first time I have fallen off in about 6 years...and I should think it will be the last (i hope) as I will be even more careful from now on

trad is good and keeps you fit, and at the same time looks good to people watching -- looks more of an art than wfp useage

I havent used wfp so cant really comment on saftey issues too much, although it has to be obvious that you dont use ladders so death must be ruled out 

hi dennis
sorry to hear about your fall and i hope you recover ok.

a lot of w/cs are put off buy the price of going wfp but don't be

go to http://d.co.uk/phpbb/index.php?sid=68b835ee2bfff0177748851ca654cc76

make your own system DIY and save yourself a fortune

at the end of the day you cannot put a price on your life

your safety is parramount to any amount of money

also bare in mind the once you get used to wfp you will be getting around much quicker therefore taking on more work and making more money

wfp will pay for it's self in no time if you put the effoet into it

meanwhile if you do carry on trad take it easy on your ladder

jay

[Cleaner Windows]

This is an amusing argument!! sueeky defends our territory well and has amusing "come backs" to the wfp commentors

I am still trad and will be for some time yet I should think. Yes, I fell off my ladder and broke my feet, but will still be going back to work doing trad wc'ing!

I would love to go out and buy wfp setup so I wouldnt have to risk it anymore, but I just cant afford it all.
At the end of the day, thats the first time I have fallen off in about 6 years...and I should think it will be the last (i hope) as I will be even more careful from now on

trad is good and keeps you fit, and at the same time looks good to people watching -- looks more of an art than wfp useage

I havent used wfp so cant really comment on saftey issues too much, although it has to be obvious that you dont use ladders so death must be ruled out 

hi dennis
sorry to hear about your fall and i hope you recover ok.

a lot of w/cs are put off buy the price of going wfp but don't be

go to http://d.co.uk/phpbb/index.php?sid=68b835ee2bfff0177748851ca654cc76

make your own system DIY and save yourself a fortune

at the end of the day you cannot put a price on your life

your safety is parramount to any amount of money

also bare in mind the once you get used to wfp you will be getting around much quicker therefore taking on more work and making more money

wfp will pay for it's self in no time if you put the effoet into it

meanwhile if you do carry on trad take it easy on your ladder

jay

thanx j

[scrimit2]

its been a good debate on here, with both sides having made good points


As I said in my earlier posts, that I think I can, very soon, have a round with just ground floor work if I choose to do this.

so my question for WFP users is, if you could turn back time to before you got your wfp systems, if you could choose between wfp or soley working on the ground, would you have still bought wfp?

[Ian Rochester]

After reading this lot, it's not an argument I'm going to get into unless I was sat bored in the pub on a wet saturday afternoon and was in the mood for it.

Personally I sit in both corners, we use ladders when required or WFP when required, there are situations for both, they are both simply tools of a window cleaner the same as a plumber may use soldered joints or push fit joints, personal preference and whatever fits the situation best.

WFP operated by a competent person will generally outperform ladders, the only time this may not be the case is if it is a small standalone single property, where the trad guy may get his gear off and set up quicker than the WFP guy.  But if you have two or more houses close together, the WFP guy will fly ahead.

[scrimit2]

After reading this lot, it's not an argument I'm going to get into unless I was sat bored in the pub on a wet saturday afternoon and was in the mood for it.

Personally I sit in both corners, we use ladders when required or WFP when required, there are situations for both, they are both simply tools of a window cleaner the same as a plumber may use soldered joints or push fit joints, personal preference and whatever fits the situation best.

WFP operated by a competent person will generally outperform ladders, the only time this may not be the case is if it is a small standalone single property, where the trad guy may get his gear off and set up quicker than the WFP guy.  But if you have two or more houses close together, the WFP guy will fly ahead.

Your right you have have to know your work, and whats the best way to do it,

[poleman]

so my question for WFP users is, if you could turn back time to before you got your wfp systems, if you could choose between wfp or soley working on the ground, would you have still bought wfp?

WFP 100% its changed my whole working life having been up a ladder for 16 years, I now love going to work, its all so given me a very good income, which has help me and my loved ones a better life and also knowing I am safe and end of the day thats whats its all about as work is not the be all and end all of life

Andy