[Sir Squeaky]

I don't use a ladder to do shops, so no I won't have it on a pavement.
You'll still have a trip hazard.

Prices may come down, but wfp users want more money for the job usually.

Oh, and how can wfp do windows above flat roofs, over gates, open windows, cracked leaded, etc...etc...

The only ones I don't do are above conservatories, and the customer's fine about that.
There's loads of windows I couldn't access with wfp.
Why can't blinkered wfp uses just accept that?

It's cost you silly money, that's why.

Not directing this personally at you Trev, it's the forum in general.

Rog.

[Fast 1 *]

go on my son

[Trevor Knight]

I don't use a ladder to do shops, so no I won't have it on a pavement.
You'll still have a trip hazard.

Some shops or offices in the high streets we do have a 1st floor as well, when we use the WFP all the area is coned off and warning signs put out. If people chose to ignore them that is at their own risk! If you were to do these customers you would have to use a ladder and hence would be a risk to the public.

Prices may come down, but wfp users want more money for the job usually.

Personally I charge the same as I would have done if I were traditional. I make my money by the speed of not using ladders.

Oh, and how can wfp do windows above flat roofs, over gates, open windows, cracked leaded, etc...etc...

Flat Roofs - Climb my ladder and WFP the window stood on the roof?
Gates - Climb over and pull the hose around with me?
Open Windows - I close them?
Cracked leaded - I buff them traditionally?

The only ones I don't do are above conservatories, and the customer's fine about that.

I do clean the windows above conservatories and my customers are fine with that too?

There's loads of windows I couldn't access with wfp.

There are just as many if not more that I wouldn't want to get to using my good old ladder again, 2nd floor upwards.

Why can't blinkered wfp uses just accept that?

Why can't blinkered Traditional just accept that? 

It's cost you silly money, that's why.
Afraid of change, that's why 

Not directing this personally at you Trev, it's the forum in general.

Same as that Squeaky, just fancied a good old debate before my holiday tomorrow 

Rog.

[C Senor]

I'm enjoying this topic and i'm glad i started it - lol.

I'm interested in WFP but i'm enjoying Trad at the moment, personally i don't mind handling the ladders - i've got an 11 rung triple and it keeps me fit as a fiddle, I'm quite safe on it and don't take any risks.

I've never tried WFP so can't really comment on it, but i have picked up a couple of customers in recent weeks who were using a WFP guy, he wasn't doing a very good job and one woman showed me the windows that he had just done (literally 20 minutes before) and i must say that they were rubbish. This guy must have been doing something wrong, there were water marks and misses all over the place.

I guess either method is only as good as the person in control of it.

Oh, and sorry i spelt argument wrong, tiredness gets me every time - 

[bumper]

how would you wfp, do houses with only access is over the garage roof  i do a lot of them, up the ladder, over the roof and back again then same next door.

[Sir Squeaky]

how would you wfp, do houses with only access is over the garage roof  i do a lot of them, up the ladder, over the roof and back again then same next door.

Same here, and lots of other things only accessable to ladders.

"Afraid of change" I find rather funny!
Not that desperate to keep up with the Jones's I'd call it.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

how would you wfp, do houses with only access is over the garage roof  i do a lot of them, up the ladder, over the roof and back again then same next door.

if the only access is to climb over a garage roof then the jobs not worth doing, replace it with another job that has less hassle.

last week 1 of my regulars decided to buy a caravan and park it on the drive by the back gate access, it was to tight for me to squeze through, so what did i do?

simple, i dropped the job as i don't do houses that give me grief or are a problem, there is so much work out there (getting better every week) why make life hard for yourselves.

as for some of the comments with ref to wfp not being able to reach all windows on my round i can think of only 1 job where 1 window is missed because it can't be reached by wfp or ladder.

[Sir Squeaky]

if the only access is to climb over a garage roof then the jobs not worth doing, replace it with another job that has less hassle.

Only takes 20 seconds.
Quicker than getting all that equipment out of your van!

Besides I do a lot of up and over houses with windows on the side too.
You couldn't do them!
No chance, don't even bother telling me you could. :

I "box clever".

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

if the only access is to climb over a garage roof then the jobs not worth doing, replace it with another job that has less hassle.

Only takes 20 seconds.
Quicker than getting all that equipment out of your van!

Besides I do a lot of up and over houses with windows on the side too.
You couldn't do them!
No chance, don't even bother telling me you could. :

I "box clever".

your missing the point squeaky, it's not wether i can do them, if you read my comments correctly you will note that i won't do them if they are not hassle free.

as i said, why create more work for yourselves?

[Sir Squeaky]

I agree.

I want my round as simple and hassle-free as possible.
That's 95% of of the reason I don't want wfp.

How long is this poxy debate going to on.....

[captain lard]

Wow the feathers are flying!!
I am trad and dont have an issue with using my ladders,starting up a wfp system is not an option due to the costs and maintenance involved plus I think I would struggle to get higher priced work to justify it.
I access houses using me ladders to climb into the rear of the premises also but havent a full round to justify dropping a client for the hassle.
Horses for courses as I see it,you opt for your preferred method and good luck to us all I say but have to say I am in the trad camp and it would take a lot to make me even consider wfp,trad as long as you have a bucket of water,an applicator,a squegee a scrim/microfibre and a ladder you are in business,wfp seems to me to be a whole lot of hassle and expense but it obviously works for a lot of the lads here so fair do's but not everyone wants a system or needs it.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

I agree.

I want my round as simple and hassle-free as possible.
That's 95% of of the reason I don't want wfp.

How long is this poxy debate going to on.....

for as long as you leave replies that need an answer i guess

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

Wow the feathers are flying!!
I am trad and dont have an issue with using my ladders,starting up a wfp system is not an option due to the costs and maintenance involved plus I think I would struggle to get higher priced work to justify it.
I access houses using me ladders to climb into the rear of the premises also but havent a full round to justify dropping a client for the hassle.
Horses for courses as I see it,you opt for your preferred method and good luck to us all I say but have to say I am in the trad camp and it would take a lot to make me even consider wfp,trad as long as you have a bucket of water,an applicator,a squegee a scrim/microfibre and a ladder you are in business,wfp seems to me to be a whole lot of hassle and expense but it obviously works for a lot of the lads here so fair do's but not everyone wants a system or needs it.

Totally agree with you captain “horses for courses”
I for 1 will not knock w/cs using trad because lets face it any w/c that’s been in the biz for 5 years or more would have started as a trad, me included,

In the 80’s I was trad as it was the only way, luckily I never fell from a ladder but came close a few times, I move abroad for a while and on my return started up again and discovered wfp.

I soon changed over to wfp because of the safety issue more than anything because at my age in life I don’t think my bones could handle the fall from a ladder at height.

Don’t get me wrong, I do not and will not slate trad cleaners as I myself was one (infact I still trad clean bungalows etc) and I would like to think that trad cleaners won’t slate wfp but as we know on this forum both take a bashing from either side.

Each method has it’s place and each w/c has the right to choose what method he/she prefers.

Jay

[bumper]

Seems to me all you wfp are lazy oh carn,t be bothered doing that street oh carn,t be bothered doing that house theres dog muck in garden,wot are you window cleaners, are men with big bog brush,take the rough with the smoth and become one of the elite like us traders no job to small.

[captain lard]

Wow the feathers are flying!!
I am trad and dont have an issue with using my ladders,starting up a wfp system is not an option due to the costs and maintenance involved plus I think I would struggle to get higher priced work to justify it.
I access houses using me ladders to climb into the rear of the premises also but havent a full round to justify dropping a client for the hassle.
Horses for courses as I see it,you opt for your preferred method and good luck to us all I say but have to say I am in the trad camp and it would take a lot to make me even consider wfp,trad as long as you have a bucket of water,an applicator,a squegee a scrim/microfibre and a ladder you are in business,wfp seems to me to be a whole lot of hassle and expense but it obviously works for a lot of the lads here so fair do's but not everyone wants a system or needs it.

Totally agree with you captain “horses for courses”
I for 1 will not knock w/cs using trad because lets face it any w/c that’s been in the biz for 5 years or more would have started as a trad, me included,

In the 80’s I was trad as it was the only way, luckily I never fell from a ladder but came close a few times, I move abroad for a while and on my return started up again and discovered wfp.

I soon changed over to wfp because of the safety issue more than anything because at my age in life I don’t think my bones could handle the fall from a ladder at height.

Don’t get me wrong, I do not and will not slate trad cleaners as I myself was one (infact I still trad clean bungalows etc) and I would like to think that trad cleaners won’t slate wfp but as we know on this forum both take a bashing from either side.

Each method has it’s place and each w/c has the right to choose what method he/she prefers.

Jay

Exactly mate,I can totally see why WC develop into wfp for safety reasons and access etc,and if its benefitting your business and helping turnover you would be a mug to turn your back on it. I was sat in me car outside a supermarket and now I myself am a WC was looking at it with a view to cleaning it and decided that in a certain area maybe only wfp could do the job,and on some houses I do some windows which I cant get to -above conservatories-might be a wfp job,so it has its uses.At the minute being trad I can do a lot of windows domestically but not all due to its limitations and if I wanted to expand into commercial wfp would have to come into the frame but currently domestic is all I want so like you say we can structure what we do given what we have to offer.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

Seems to me all you wfp are lazy oh carn,t be bothered doing that street oh carn,t be bothered doing that house theres dog muck in garden,wot are you window cleaners, are men with big bog brush,take the rough with the smoth and become one of the elite like us traders no job to small.

point proven

Don’t get me wrong, I do not and will not slate trad cleaners as I myself was one (infact I still trad clean bungalows etc) and I would like to think that trad cleaners won’t slate wfp but as we know on this forum both take a bashing from either side.

[Sir Squeaky]

Can't see the point in this thread to be honest.
Do what you want, but don't ram it down other people's throats as being better.

I only respond because I don't like the holier-than-thou condescending attitude of wfp users.

Nice to see I'm not on my own on this one though.
There's more trad defending going on than just me on here.....

Anyway, anyone got a "lock" button?

(sorry to wfp users for using big words)

[Moderator David@stives]

I can see where Squeeky is coming from, in fact he has made a lot of valid points, i dread going to some jobs now with wfp, i must stress these are different to the ones i dreaded when i was trad.

Some points he made are very valid indeed, i wont highlight them all, but the point about trailing hoses is very valid.I think i will cause more danger for my customer with my hose than i ever did with my ladder , how many times have you tugged your hose for that bit more , even though you are pulling it around three sides of an house,

Are you sure your customer is not about to step over the hose as you yank it, be honest weve all pulled the hose blind.
I have noticed some of the so called wfp experts have only been wfp for less than 12 months and suddenly know all the dangers of wfp, I dont think so!!!!!
I was 7 years trad and was still learning the dangers right to the end and that was just a simple ladder.
I wish every one would realy examine the points being raised rather just defending at all costs.

Dave

[Paul Coleman]

Can't see the point in this thread to be honest.
Do what you want, but don't ram it down other people's throats as being better.

I only respond because I don't like the holier-than-thou condescending attitude of wfp users.

Nice to see I'm not on my own on this one though.
There's more trad defending going on than just me on here.....

Anyway, anyone got a "lock" button?

(sorry to wfp users for using big words)

I would defend trad too even though I don't use it much now.
The funny thing is, when I am out there working, I am the one who is outnumbered if these debates occur.  It's all pretty good natured as I know the guys who I have had these discussions with.  It's funny how rumours can propagate.  A couple of the guys I stop and chat with sometimes have all heard bad things about WFP - from people who have never used it.  Therefore, they assume that what they have heard is true.  Then they see me using it and ask me things and discover that there is another side to it.  Far from having a dig at me, there's a bit of respect there because I've had the ba lls to go for it.  In fact, one of them put me onto a one off job recently as he couldn't access it.  It was a 45 pounder and was a help to my finances that week.
Whether doing trad or WFP, I am reasonably happy in my work most of the time.  This is the only job I've ever had that I could say this about.  It's just a pity I'm under financial pressure for the next few years as that is pushing me into doing things that I don't really want to do.
I admit that I did struggle a bit with WFP for a while and I struggled even more with the attitude of some of my customers.  That phase seems to have passed now - though there has been something like a 5 - 10% turnaround (losses and gains) in my customer base.

[Paul Coleman]

if the only access is to climb over a garage roof then the jobs not worth doing, replace it with another job that has less hassle.

Only takes 20 seconds.
Quicker than getting all that equipment out of your van!

Besides I do a lot of up and over houses with windows on the side too.
You couldn't do them!
No chance, don't even bother telling me you could. :

I "box clever".

I think it's more hassle with WFP because you have to use the ladder anyway with trad.  With WFP, it's an extra task.  Add to this, many people with WFP need a van that can carry more weight which usually means the van is taller (harder to get ladder off).