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Spruce

  • Posts: 8355
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2017, 03:09:54 pm »
Don't worry about the Numax being sealed or maintenance free. They will tollerate higher vehicle charging voltages of 14.5 volts without issue.

I opened my Oldham battery to check water levels and I didn't see one bubble coming off the plates on any of the cells. My battery gets a 14.4/14.5 volt kick everytime the engine is started.

The very nature of a battery is that it has an electrical resistance. I have a 90 amp alternator on my van but when that battery is getting to fully charged it will only accept a trickle or very slow charge of between half an amp and 1 amp. The battery will only accept what it needs.

Yes you can increase the rate of charge a battery receives by altering the charging algorithm but once a battery is fully charged it won't accept any more charge.

One of the time and tested ways of determining the quality of a leisure battery is weight. The heavier it is the more lead is inside it.


Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 05:36:23 pm »
Thats true about the weight , the Numax is 4kg heavier than the cheapie !
Its also now listed as a dual purpose battery , starter and deep cycle , looks like i paid a bit more but got the best of both worlds !
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Spruce

  • Posts: 8355
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2017, 07:56:30 pm »
Thats true about the weight , the Numax is 4kg heavier than the cheapie !
Its also now listed as a dual purpose battery , starter and deep cycle , looks like i paid a bit more but got the best of both worlds !

They are headed in that direction. Its a glorified Trojan traction battery concept. So if that hose reel motor draws 30 amps the battery is well equiped to deal with it.
The downside with weight is that its heavier to carry when you need to bench charge it.

But if you continue to 'loose' 3 amps a day that will easily be recovered over the weekend when the van is parked up. So atm you can expect to start the week off with a fully charged battery.

Now here's a thought. Now you have that dual purpose battery you could get a set of long length jumper leads and couple both batteries up together (van and leisure.) You will need to remove the battery terminals and wires on your leisure battery. So Positive to positive first and then negative to negative. You can then start your van and whilst you are filling the water tank and warming the engine up you will also be giving your leisure battery a boost voltage charge. 10 - 15  minutes is better than not doing anything at all.

.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Og

Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 08:04:56 pm »
Trojan.

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2017, 08:38:58 pm »
Thats true about the weight , the Numax is 4kg heavier than the cheapie !
Its also now listed as a dual purpose battery , starter and deep cycle , looks like i paid a bit more but got the best of both worlds !

They are headed in that direction. Its a glorified Trojan traction battery concept. So if that hose reel motor draws 30 amps the battery is well equiped to deal with it.
The downside with weight is that its heavier to carry when you need to bench charge it.

But if you continue to 'loose' 3 amps a day that will easily be recovered over the weekend when the van is parked up. So atm you can expect to start the week off with a fully charged battery.

Now here's a thought. Now you have that dual purpose battery you could get a set of long length jumper leads and couple both batteries up together (van and leisure.) You will need to remove the battery terminals and wires on your leisure battery. So Positive to positive first and then negative to negative. You can then start your van and whilst you are filling the water tank and warming the engine up you will also be giving your leisure battery a boost voltage charge. 10 - 15  minutes is better than not doing anything at all.

.
Yet another good idea , but i am coming around to the wired relay bit you mentioned earlier , my bro can wire that in for me , i have a 10 mile motorway journey to and from work every day , that could make a fair difference to my shortfall .
Today i got 10.25 amps in with 10.75 out , to be honest if it goes like that all the time then i should not need any more upgrades, but the fun starts from now , im going to see how it fairs with just solar for a bit .
I would like to just leave the bat in the van and see what happens , but as its brand new i dont want to wreck it just yet !
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2017, 11:01:49 am »
Hey Spruce , one thing that does puzzle me though is .........Lets just say i was to leave the battery in as of Monday , and just let nature take its course , as you know i note what comes in and goes out every day amp wise , would you base the need for a bench charge on that or would you go with what the voltage was at the end of each day ?
Every day its back up to 12.9 or higher by the time i have finished pottering about , is there a connection between amps and volts or could it still display 12.9 v and be short of say 20 amps ?
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2017, 11:15:17 am »
And having said that , as its a nice sunny day here today , would putting the battery in and letting the solar controller reach float mode , then take it out and rest it for say 6 hours , then volt check and place onto smart charge and take note of how long that takes to register it as a fully charged battry .
The other day it took 2 hours at 3.75 amps to reach maintain so i knew it was short of 7.5 amps , this could then give me an indication as to what ampage the solar controller calls my battery full .
If this is feasable then surely i could just base my decision to bench on that , float mode no charge , bulk or absorb mode bench ?
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Spruce

  • Posts: 8355
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2017, 12:56:43 pm »
If you are going to fit a split charge relay (better a VSR) to your van, may I suggest you contact Vitron to get a wiring diagram of how to connect the wires up to make 100% sure that no damage is done to your MPPT controller. I would imagine that the terminals from the scr are connected to the leisure battery and when the engine is running the controller will see the battery as fully charged and switch the controller off, but I would check just to make sure.

The state of charge of a battery is only determined by voltage for a sealed or maintenance free battery. (If its a none maintenance battery with inspection and filler plugs then a hydrometer is also another method.)
So if your voltmeter shows 12.8/12.9v then you have to assume that your battery is fully charged. If you have a 105 amph battery then again you have to assume that you have 105 amp of available power. If you had a 110 or 115amp leisure battery then you would use those figures.

This is for lead acid batteries. I haven't studied new calcium batteries but their composition will be the same - just using different chemicals.

As the battery ages it looses it capacity due to sulphation of the plates. It will still show up as fully charged on your volt meter.  At one time the only way you could test the capacity of the battery was to fully charge it and then put a load test on it for a duration of time and see the results. So if the battery went flat when the load had taken 50 amps it would mean that the battery's capacity had dropped from the original 105 amp to 50. You will still be able to use your pump and would have no problem for a while if you used less than 25 amps a day. (Remember the 50% charge 'rule'. ) But sooner or later the battery will deteriorate until it didn't manage to get you through the day.
Some of the suppliers have come up with fancy equipment that supposedly can tell you the remaining battery capacity electronically with a short test. But I'm old and cynical.

Voltage and amps aren't the same thing although they are very dependant on each other. The voltage is the force or pressure (energy) applied to the current where amps is the amount of current being pushed  at a certain point.

Now you know that energy in a battery is the result of a chemical reaction thats happening in the battery's guts. So when my volt/amp meter tells me that its my alternator is charging my battery at 14.5 volts and 3 amps, its basically telling me that the amps are what its taking to complete the chemical reaction inside the battery.

BUT the fuller the battery gets the slower it accepts charge to complete this chemical reaction. So if I take my pump and run it for an hour and take 5 amps from my battery, it will take longer for the charger to replace it due to the deminishing charge acceptance of the battery. During the recharging state you could see an intial spike of the charger at 5 or 6 amps, but will quickly drop to 3 and then 2 and then 1.
You posted this earlier assuming that your charger pushed 3.5 amps into your battery for 2 hours. I'm not sure this is correct. In all probabilty the battery was fully charged (as near as damit) to start with and its my belief that it took 2 hours to replace the 3 amps shortfall. ;)

 
Well i fitted the Numax battery today and what a difference , i was not hoping the sun would come out to give me a power boost , I worked from 10 to 3.30 , the solar took 10 amps in and the pump and power reel took 13 amps out , so on paper i used 3 amps all day , i decided to put the battery on the smart charger on the sealed setting to see what it would put back in , it took 2 hours to get to float mode , sealed setting provides 3.5 amps an hour , so 7 amps went in to make up the 3 amps taken out , not exact maths but close enough for me , after doing some sums i worked out that i got home with the battery at 90% charged  .

Every day its back up to 12.9 or higher by the time i have finished pottering about , is there a connection between amps and volts or could it still display 12.9 v and be short of say 20 amps ?

If your battery shows 12.9 volts after its stood idle for 4 hours then its fully charged. If your battery was 20 amps short it would mean that the voltage of the battery would reflect that as it would be lower.

Lets go back to our 105 amp example. If your battery is short of 20 amps, it means that you have 85 amp left. That is just over 80% charged. The battery voltage when left to stabilise will probably be in the region of 12.5 to 12.6v on your voltmeter.

PS. As far as I'm aware the only battery that will charge fast and at the same rate until fully charged is a Lithium ion battery.  But there is no way I'm going to spend £950 for a 110 amp battery for that feature.

.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2017, 01:18:31 pm »
Got it , so its still best to go with the voltage after resting , if that is the case then i will just leave it in and periodically check it to see if benching is required , im going to hold fire on piggy backing the batteries for now and see how i go .
The solar pretty much went straight to float earlier when i said what i was going to do , it has now rested for at least an hour and is reading at 13.2 volt , i will let it go until at least 6pm before i put the charger on it , if if only takes an hour this time to hit maintain then worst case is that it was short of 3.75 amps maximum  , i will put my faith in the solar controller getting to float each day , if i can get to float at days end each day im on a winner in that regard .
Im off to crawl under the van now , oil and filter change time ! 
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Spruce

  • Posts: 8355
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2017, 01:44:22 pm »
Got it , so its still best to go with the voltage after resting , if that is the case then i will just leave it in and periodically check it to see if benching is required , im going to hold fire on piggy backing the batteries for now and see how i go .
The solar pretty much went straight to float earlier when i said what i was going to do , it has now rested for at least an hour and is reading at 13.2 volt , i will let it go until at least 6pm before i put the charger on it , if if only takes an hour this time to hit maintain then worst case is that it was short of 3.75 amps maximum  , i will put my faith in the solar controller getting to float each day , if i can get to float at days end each day im on a winner in that regard .
Im off to crawl under the van now , oil and filter change time !

If your MPPT controller is going to float then the battery is fully charged and in a maintenance mode. Putting a charger onto it won't do that much.

Flip. I've got a 5 liter container of 5W 30 engine oil for my Hdi Citroen Relay in my 'office'. With a new oil filter it cost me £22.00.
As a manufacturer Citroen recommend Total oils and lubricants. The bulk oil deliveries for workshop comsumables weren't Total. They were a cheap substitute sold at a massive markup.

I'm don't know what Fiat recommend for your van engine but I know that years back the oil they recommended for Alpha 156 2.4 turbo diesel was laced with gold it was that expensive.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2017, 01:57:52 pm »
They recomend Petronas selinia which actually has fiat specs on the label , none of the others did , they all were specced up as pugeot / citroen , for bipper nemo i suppose .
The oil at halfords was priced at £40 anyway , i paid around £50 i think so not too bad , i will just look at it as £1 a week for peace of mind !   
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Spruce

  • Posts: 8355
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2017, 03:37:42 pm »
They recomend Petronas selinia which actually has fiat specs on the label , none of the others did , they all were specced up as pugeot / citroen , for bipper nemo i suppose .
The oil at halfords was priced at £40 anyway , i paid around £50 i think so not too bad , i will just look at it as £1 a week for peace of mind !

Yep. That was the same oil I just couldn't remember what it was called.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2017, 06:36:44 pm »
All in and done now , probably just placebo effect but what a difference on start up , seemed smoother and quieter than usual .
But then i did leave it 10k and 2 years ::)roll
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2017, 07:15:36 pm »
That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2017, 07:31:48 pm »
That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.
Looks like another job for " SOLAR GIMP " hold tight i'll be with you in a jiffy  ;D
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2017, 07:45:52 pm »
Got it , so its still best to go with the voltage after resting , if that is the case then i will just leave it in and periodically check it to see if benching is required , im going to hold fire on piggy backing the batteries for now and see how i go .
The solar pretty much went straight to float earlier when i said what i was going to do , it has now rested for at least an hour and is reading at 13.2 volt , i will let it go until at least 6pm before i put the charger on it , if if only takes an hour this time to hit maintain then worst case is that it was short of 3.75 amps maximum  , i will put my faith in the solar controller getting to float each day , if i can get to float at days end each day im on a winner in that regard .
Im off to crawl under the van now , oil and filter change time !
Result , At 7.15 pm i put it on charge with the voltage at 13.15 volt.
                 By 7.35 pm it was floating with a voltage of 13.50 volt.

Think i will go with the solar controller being on float as my guide , seems like a winner to me  ;D.
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2017, 07:48:02 pm »
That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.
Hold your horses NWH , i have seen a battery with that kind of spec , i will see if i can find a link for you .
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

P @ F

  • Posts: 6312
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2017, 08:00:38 pm »
That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.
Hold your horses NWH , i have seen a battery with that kind of spec , i will see if i can find a link for you .
This is what i saw with 1 hour charge time , not lithium i think , but at a third of the price it could be worth a punt , Spruce could offer his knowledge if he sees this !

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/platinum-95ah-odyssey-tppl-battery-p367648
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2017, 09:28:16 am »
Thanks for that like I say I'm having a lot of problems due to the diesel heater,the other day i put a 115amp battery on charge at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and turned it off in the following morning on a CTek charger. I probably only get  2-3 cycles of startup on the heater before due to the battery dropping by to between 11-11.5v on the battery it  switches it off I have to keep turning the heater on and off manually on the controller in order for it to start up again.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8355
Re: Battery choices ......Anybody (Spruce) !
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2017, 10:18:48 am »
That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

Hold your horses NWH , i have seen a battery with that kind of spec , i will see if i can find a link for you .
This is what i saw with 1 hour charge time , not lithium i think , but at a third of the price it could be worth a punt , Spruce could offer his knowledge if he sees this !

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/platinum-95ah-odyssey-tppl-battery-p367648

I've never seen this before.

What I would need clarification on is what size charger is needed to fully charge the battery that fast.

I expect you would have to upgrade your alternator to one with a much higher spec and the battery cables to this battery would have to be really heavy duty. Then you have to consider the relay/seperator.

Would one be able to achieve a charge this fast 'out in the field?'

.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)