[P @ F]

Well sods law has worked its magic , following my little solar experiment my battery has decided to give up the ghost , not i think through the trials but just bad luck .

I have only just upgraded the system to 120 watt of solar from 80 watt to compensate for winter , the cheap £50 , 85 amp leisure battery tells me on all devices i have that it is fully charged , 3 watt meters , 2 smart chargers , 1 multimetre , 1 flow controller all give me readings of over 13 volt after battery rested for at least 4 hours
No sooner do i fire up the pumps and it drops to 12.2 volt which is 25% charged , due to the 120 watts of solar through an MPPT controller and its ability to  give me  6 amps on tap in bright conditions i am able to carry on , but i think i could come a cropper on a poor day .
I know the answer is simply to get a new battery but am in a bit of a tiz over what to choose ?

85 amp will do the job fine i think , with what i can put in against what i take out i should be always in either absorbtion or float mode which is as near to fully charged as you can get , which should keep the battery in top condition .

115 amp  will in effect be a bigger fuel tank for me , but if solar yield is not so good i could find myself hovering in the 50/75% charge area , not so good for the battery in terms of maintaining a healthy battery .

Or i am looking at the possibility of a car battery , many people have good results from them , due to the lower amp capacity of them i should also mostly be in float mode , the question is can they handle say 6 amps going in for short bursts , i am not aware of what a car alternator pumps in on average , or more to the point , as the lead plates are thinner will i cook the thing ?
My MPPT controller will stop any danger of overcharge i think , but i am just interested as to what you guys think ?

Rich 
 

[CleanClear]

Just a mad question seeing as you have an MPPT controller............
 I know how it is supposed to be wired as it clearly tells you, but what happens if you put your "load" to your battery(as well)  ? Yes i already know its charging it, but if you run seperate load wires to your battery ? Would it still charge and fund the extra power draw if that makes sense ?

[P @ F]

    , No not mad at all , i never thought of that !
I suppose it would just cut down what went to battery  by whatever it sensed as the load , after all it can only process what is coming in via the panel .
Do forgive me if i dont try it out though , £80 for a new MPPT would be a costly firework display 

[Spruce]

Well sods law has worked its magic , following my little solar experiment my battery has decided to give up the ghost , not i think through the trials but just bad luck .

I have only just upgraded the system to 120 watt of solar from 80 watt to compensate for winter , the cheap £50 , 85 amp leisure battery tells me on all devices i have that it is fully charged , 3 watt meters , 2 smart chargers , 1 multimetre , 1 flow controller all give me readings of over 13 volt after battery rested for at least 4 hours
No sooner do i fire up the pumps and it drops to 12.2 volt which is 25% charged , due to the 120 watts of solar through an MPPT controller and its ability to  give me  6 amps on tap in bright conditions i am able to carry on , but i think i could come a cropper on a poor day .
I know the answer is simply to get a new battery but am in a bit of a tiz over what to choose ?

85 amp will do the job fine i think , with what i can put in against what i take out i should be always in either absorbtion or float mode which is as near to fully charged as you can get , which should keep the battery in top condition .

115 amp  will in effect be a bigger fuel tank for me , but if solar yield is not so good i could find myself hovering in the 50/75% charge area , not so good for the battery in terms of maintaining a healthy battery .

Or i am looking at the possibility of a car battery , many people have good results from them , due to the lower amp capacity of them i should also mostly be in float mode , the question is can they handle say 6 amps going in for short bursts , i am not aware of what a car alternator pumps in on average , or more to the point , as the lead plates are thinner will i cook the thing ?
My MPPT controller will stop any danger of overcharge i think , but i am just interested as to what you guys think ?

Rich

Rich,
You are panicking when you don't really need to atm.

Your battery will drop voltage after you have had the pump working. If you switch your solar array off, you will find that the battery voltage will slowly creep back up from 12.2 volts to 12.6/7v depending on how much you have worked the battery and how much you have taken out. (So if your pump is run for an hour and has drawn 5 amps, then after a 4 hour rest your volt meter will be showing a virtually fully charged battery.)

As the capacity in the battery is used up the voltage will drop into the 11 volts area under load. You are in trouble when your battery voltage under load drops to 10.4 volts.  That's flat. To save the battery your controller will automatically cut out provided you haven't activated the overide (this only applies to the latest Spring controllers).

We have just replaced an old 5 year old Numax battery with another Numax (85 amph) about 6 months ago. The latest Numax batteries are leaning toward the new Calcium technology and they are now quoting a CCA value. CCA means Cold Cranking Amps so these are now dual purpose batteries which are both leisure and starter batteries - like the Trojan traction batteries.

Your MPPT controller is programmed to boost charge your batteries at 14 volts regularily.  I honestly would like to see it slightly higher (14.2 - 14.5 v) as that stirs up the chemical action inside the battery a little more. But the suppliers are really playing safe with this so they are guaranteed that the battery won't give of poisonous gasses at this charging voltage.

.

[Spruce]

Just a mad question seeing as you have an MPPT controller............
 I know how it is supposed to be wired as it clearly tells you, but what happens if you put your "load" to your battery(as well)  ? Yes i already know its charging it, but if you run seperate load wires to your battery ? Would it still charge and fund the extra power draw if that makes sense ?

The inside of the battery has electrical resistance. The panels will only provide the maximum amount of charge that they can and the battery will only accept what it can. As the state of battery charge gets fuller the resistance increases.

With the battery being connected up the correct way to the MPPT controller, all the available amps collected by the panels will be being sent to the battery. If the battery won't accept that rate of charge (its nearly fully charged for example) then the extra power not used is shed. So if a battery will only accept a charge of 1 amp then connecting an extra lead to the load isn't going to push any more current into the battery.

The load connection is usually not battery related. It doesn't 'regulate' (bulk, absorbtion, float,) the current like the battery side of the controller does. This is where you connect a 230v inverter to. If you are using an electrical tool which consumes more than the panels are providing, the 'load' will take everything from the panel and draw the shortfall from the battery. The load takes preference.

So P&F could wire his pump into the load rather than directly from the leisure battery terminals. The controller will draw all the current it can from the panels and any extra from the battery. When he stops to talk to a customer, the MPPT controller directs the power generated back into the battery trying to replace what it took earlier.

ATM Rich's panels are supplying 6amps. His pump will be drawing a max of 5 amps. So he has an extra 1amp being put back into the battery when he is cleaning windows. That's great. His battery will be virtually fully charged and the controller will be on float mode.
 But in the summer he may have to 'design'/make a cover to fit over one of the panels to reduce output.

.

[P @ F]

Just a mad question seeing as you have an MPPT controller............
 I know how it is supposed to be wired as it clearly tells you, but what happens if you put your "load" to your battery(as well)  ? Yes i already know its charging it, but if you run seperate load wires to your battery ? Would it still charge and fund the extra power draw if that makes sense ?

The inside of the battery has electrical resistance. The panels will only provide the maximum amount of charge that they can and the battery will only accept what it can. As the state of battery charge gets fuller the resistance increases.

With the battery being connected up the correct way to the MPPT controller, all the available amps collected by the panels will be being sent to the battery. If the battery won't accept that rate of charge (its nearly fully charged for example) then the extra power not used is shed. So if a battery will only accept a charge of 1 amp then connecting an extra lead to the load isn't going to push any more current into the battery.

The load connection is usually not battery related. It doesn't 'regulate' (bulk, absorbtion, float,) the current like the battery side of the controller does. This is where you connect a 230v inverter to. If you are using an electrical tool which consumes more than the panels are providing, the 'load' will take everything from the panel and draw the shortfall from the battery. The load takes preference.

So P&F could wire his pump into the load rather than directly from the leisure battery terminals. The controller will draw all the current it can from the panels and any extra from the battery. When he stops to talk to a customer, the MPPT controller directs the power generated back into the battery trying to replace what it took earlier.

.

Hi Spruce  , this is the question i asked at the place i bought the MPPT , why do i not use the load for my application , they just said its better to go from pump to battery not load , due to the amp pull , they said it would be the same if you were to use an inverter , it has also been seen by myself on NoClueTube 

Im just doing what im told , but going back to my voltage drop , on Sunday i fully charged the battery and let it rest , then i ran the pump without a solar feed , it took about 1 hour to get from 13.6 to having Bat displayed on flow controller meaning i think that it was just about to shut itself off ?
Also today i could actually see a marked increase in flow when the sun popped its head from the clouds 

But what do you think of my battery options anyway ? , which way would you go ?

[Spruce]

I would connect your load directly to the battery.  You will arrive at the same 'destination'; is just you have taken a different route. Your battery is still going to receive 1 amp no matter which way you connect it up.

You are going to see an increase in power with the pump as you are pushing it with a higher voltage. My fan on my diesel heater air heater runs slower as I switch the engine off. The voltage to the heater drops as its now being driven by 12volts rather than 14.2 volts when the engine was running. The alternator is suppling the fan with 16% higher voltage.

If your battery voltage is dropping that fast, then its time for a new battery. I would replace it with a leisure battery tbh rather than a starter battery. As I've said, Numax has done us well over the years wfp.

.

[P @ F]

I would connect your load directly to the battery.  You will arrive at the same 'destination'; is just you have taken a different route. Your battery is still going to receive 1 amp no matter which way you connect it up.

You are going to see an increase in power with the pump as you are pushing it with a higher voltage. My fan on my diesel heater air heater runs slower as I switch the engine off. The voltage to the heater drops as its now being driven by 12volts rather than 14.2 volts when the engine was running. The alternator is suppling the fan with 16% higher voltage.

If your battery voltage is dropping that fast, then its time for a new battery. I would replace it with a leisure battery tbh rather than a starter battery. As I've said, Numax has done us well over the years wfp.

.

You confused me a bit here , when you say load direct to battery , do you mean pump straight to battery or to run an extra wire from load on solar controller to the battery ?

Ok , leisure it is , but 85 or 115 ?

[P @ F]

As it is  at the moment i have the WFP set up the conventional way , the battery output from solar controller goes to the battery and the load output from the solar controller is not used .
Is this what you mean ?

[Spruce]

As it is  at the moment i have the WFP set up the conventional way , the battery output from solar controller goes to the battery and the load output from the solar controller is not used .
Is this what you mean ?

Yes,
So the MPPT controller will only have 2 feeds, the cables from the solar panels and the cables from the controller to the battery.

Battery. If you have space its always better to go higher. But if you have to carry the battery any distance in winter to bench charge it, then its pretty heavy.
Depending on how your panels perform in the winter it may mean you only have to bench charge a bigger battery every 4 days rather than every 3 days with a smaller battery, for example.

As a single operator the 85 amp batteries have been fine for us. ATM having a bigger battery will just mean that you have a bigger reserve. If you are still using less current than the solar is putting in then its a matter of time before the extra current will completely fully charge your battery no matter how big it is.

[Spruce]

Just a mad question seeing as you have an MPPT controller............
 I know how it is supposed to be wired as it clearly tells you, but what happens if you put your "load" to your battery(as well)  ? Yes i already know its charging it, but if you run seperate load wires to your battery ? Would it still charge and fund the extra power draw if that makes sense ?

The inside of the battery has electrical resistance. The panels will only provide the maximum amount of charge that they can and the battery will only accept what it can. As the state of battery charge gets fuller the resistance increases.

With the battery being connected up the correct way to the MPPT controller, all the available amps collected by the panels will be being sent to the battery. If the battery won't accept that rate of charge (its nearly fully charged for example) then the extra power not used is shed. So if a battery will only accept a charge of 1 amp then connecting an extra lead to the load isn't going to push any more current into the battery.

The load connection is usually not battery related. It doesn't 'regulate' (bulk, absorbtion, float,) the current like the battery side of the controller does. This is where you connect a 230v inverter to. If you are using an electrical tool which consumes more than the panels are providing, the 'load' will take everything from the panel and draw the shortfall from the battery. The load takes preference.

So P&F could wire his pump into the load rather than directly from the leisure battery terminals. The controller will draw all the current it can from the panels and any extra from the battery. When he stops to talk to a customer, the MPPT controller directs the power generated back into the battery trying to replace what it took earlier.

.

Hi Spruce  , this is the question i asked at the place i bought the MPPT , why do i not use the load for my application , they just said its better to go from pump to battery not load , due to the amp pull , they said it would be the same if you were to use an inverter , it has also been seen by myself on NoClueTube 

Im just doing what im told , but going back to my voltage drop , on Sunday i fully charged the battery and let it rest , then i ran the pump without a solar feed , it took about 1 hour to get from 13.6 to having Bat displayed on flow controller meaning i think that it was just about to shut itself off ?
Also today i could actually see a marked increase in flow when the sun popped its head from the clouds 

But what do you think of my battery options anyway ? , which way would you go ?

They give advise that would cover themselves as they have no idea what people are going to do with their products. I'm sure there will be someone out there that will connect a 3000 watt inverter onto the load connections without any thought or understanding of its implications. When the controller 'blows up' they will be the first to shout about a poor quality product.

By connecting the inverter directly to the battery will mean the damage will be done to the battery and not the controller. So as a technical advisor for Victron, the advise to connect all load to the battery is good.

.

[P @ F]

OK then , I am wired correctly , so the only thing to do now is to make the choice on amp size .
I have decided to go for a better quality 85 amp than i usually get , my reasoning is that there is far more chance of being able to keep it fully charged , more so during winter when solar is not so abundant , as you know my drive behind the whole solar bit was to not have to remove the battery at all , i feel this is my best chance .

Two other things that i see as an issue are smart chargers and sulphation , as smart as these chargers are i do believe that low range models are the route cause of a lot of battery failures , ok fine , you plug and go and you cannot cook the battery to an early demise (as i have in the past with dumb chargers ) , but this is what helps sulphation get a grip unless the smart charger has a sulphation step built in , neither of mine do as they are 40 quidders .

As sulphation can only be stopped at the higher voltages than a cheap smart charger will  provide i think that a little delve into what voltage is used to de sulphate and for how long it is applied , if i manage to keep the battery fully charged then its all good , if not then i have a plan to bypass the solar controller now and then and feed the higher voltage direct for the given time .
This could be the reason that Nathankaye has not managed to kill his battery off by not using a solar controller and keeping an eye on his battery voltage .

[Spruce]

OK then , I am wired correctly , so the only thing to do now is to make the choice on amp size .
I have decided to go for a better quality 85 amp than i usually get , my reasoning is that there is far more chance of being able to keep it fully charged , more so during winter when solar is not so abundant , as you know my drive behind the whole solar bit was to not have to remove the battery at all , i feel this is my best chance .

Two other things that i see as an issue are smart chargers and sulphation , as smart as these chargers are i do believe that low range models are the route cause of a lot of battery failures , ok fine , you plug and go and you cannot cook the battery to an early demise (as i have in the past with dumb chargers ) , but this is what helps sulphation get a grip unless the smart charger has a sulphation step built in , neither of mine do as they are 40 quidders .

As sulphation can only be stopped at the higher voltages than a cheap smart charger will  provide i think that a little delve into what voltage is used to de sulphate and for how long it is applied , if i manage to keep the battery fully charged then its all good , if not then i have a plan to bypass the solar controller now and then and feed the higher voltage direct for the given time .
This could be the reason that Nathankaye has not managed to kill his battery off by not using a solar controller and keeping an eye on his battery voltage .

The issue regarding intelligent chargers is safety - allegedly and effects the charging industry as a whole. (CTEK say they have a battery reconditioning cycle but they don't say much in their literature. Most of the hype comes from the sales side of the industry.)

Leisure batteries centered around caravans and caravans store their batteries in the living compartment, usually in a locker or under a bunk. So the decision was to hold the charging at 13.9 to 14.0v. That way they are guaranteed there will be no gassing and so no harmful substances released into the living space.  An intelligent charger doesn't need to completely fully charge the battery with a higher voltage as the leisure battery will get that when the caravan is towed to site/home.
Most leisure batteries are also sealed (maintenance free) so they definitely don't want that to gas.  My current leisure battery is an Oldham and that has screw caps for topping up water. There is also a gas release tube that is feed through a hole in the floor so it vents outside. (The battery is 3 years old in January and I have never needed to top it up with water. Even with 14.5 volts going into it there is absolutely no bubbling. So this is safety issue is nonsense.) 

Canal boats are in the same situation. If based in a Marina mooring, a 230v power supply is usually provided which, like a caravan has on onboard battery charger. But each time the narrow boat engine is run the leisure batteries will be getting a higher voltage charge.

Its not too difficult to add a standard 12v (say 40 amp) headlight relay. What you are doing is running a lead that will take 25 amps from the postive terminal on your starter battery to the positive terminal on the leisure battery.  You need the relay to the circuit so your batteries remain seperated when the engine isn't running. The relay has 4 terminals. Two of them are the main current in and out and the other 2 are the coil. When a current is feed through the coil a magnetic field is created which pulls the contacts together and joins the batteries together.
You just need to look for a cable in the fuse box that is on when the ignition is on and is off when the ignition key is turned off. It should also cut the current when the starter motor is activated. (A cigarette lighter is the first place to look although auxillary sockets may be live all the time.)

The regulator on your alternator will ensure the battery isn't charged at a too higher voltage.

[P @ F]

Thanks for that Spruce , top advice as usual , but i have come to the decision of getting another cheapie 85 amp and running it with what i have set up so far , this is purely for ease , plus the fact that i am not confident enough to start hacking into the van electrics just yet !
My brother runs what i think you have described with the relay from his starter bat to another starter bat for his system , and to my knowledge he rarely removes the bat to bench , but he does a lot of miles in the van for one reason or another , i dont so i have not had him fit me up the same , lets not forget that i started all this to find the answer as to if solar could be an all year round option for a one man band .
Plus 2 reasons for the repeat cheapie battery are ....... 1 . I'm tight
                                                                                                                    2 . I would rather kill a cheapie than a Numax .

[P @ F]

Todays results are as follows , with a knackered battery that was benched overnight , not rested and reading at 13.5 V at 10am.

Solar on at 10am - 13.5 volts
Solar off at  2pm  - 12.9 volts

9.5 Amps in  with 9.0 Amps out , The battery has rested now since 2pm and i have just taken a reading of 12.6 volts .

I have watched the solar controller regularly during these times and the battery has been bulking with pump running , and a mix of absorb and float with pump stopped , today was nice though so with this in mind i think that the new battery and a not so nice day will answer what i am looking to achieve .

[P @ F]

Just been out to pop the battery on charge , still at 12.6 volts , put the crocs on and the smartcharger went straight to float , 12.6 is 75% cooked i think , anybody want to buy a battery with 1 careful lady owner 

[P @ F]

Today i used the same duff battery but the weather was poop , did not see the sun once .

Solar on 11am - 13.4 volts
Solar off 2pm   -12.6 volts

4 amps in with 6 amps out , not sure what the voltage is now as have treated myself to a Numax XV24MF , its a lot heavier than the budget battery i was using , i have just realised its sealed though , what is the crack with charging it , i have settings for sealed and standard batteries on one of the chargers , does it have to be done on the sealed setting or what ?

[P @ F]

Well i fitted the Numax battery today and what a difference , i was not hoping the sun would come out to give me a power boost , I worked from 10 to 3.30 , the solar took 10 amps in and the pump and power reel took 13 amps out , so on paper i used 3 amps all day , i decided to put the battery on the smart charger on the sealed setting to see what it would put back in , it took 2 hours to get to float mode , sealed setting provides 3.5 amps an hour , so 7 amps went in to make up the 3 amps taken out , not exact maths but close enough for me , after doing some sums i worked out that i got home with the battery at 90% charged  .
I think its going to be a case of looking at the weather on each day and looking at what has come in and gone out , summer running is going to be a breeze with not having to remove to bench , winter is going to be touch and go , but saying that i am confident that i will only have to bench it once maybe twice a week , time will tell !

[CleanClear]

Today i used the same duff battery but the weather was poop , did not see the sun once .

Solar on 11am - 13.4 volts
Solar off 2pm   -12.6 volts

4 amps in with 6 amps out , not sure what the voltage is now as have treated myself to a Numax XV24MF , its a lot heavier than the budget battery i was using , i have just realised its sealed though , what is the crack with charging it , i have settings for sealed and standard batteries on one of the chargers , does it have to be done on the sealed setting or what ?

My understanding is that the sealed batteries charge at a lower rate to avoid producing sulphur smells or whatever, or what we'd just call cooking the battery a bit. These are designed with being installed in mobile home/ caravan interiors etc.... so no smells etc...

Not sure if i'm misunderstanding something here.... whats this..solar on xxx  , solar off xx  i thought you're meant to just leave it on so its charging before you even get to your van, and other way round at the end of your day ?

[P @ F]

Today i used the same duff battery but the weather was poop , did not see the sun once .

Solar on 11am - 13.4 volts
Solar off 2pm   -12.6 volts

4 amps in with 6 amps out , not sure what the voltage is now as have treated myself to a Numax XV24MF , its a lot heavier than the budget battery i was using , i have just realised its sealed though , what is the crack with charging it , i have settings for sealed and standard batteries on one of the chargers , does it have to be done on the sealed setting or what ?

My understanding is that the sealed batteries charge at a lower rate to avoid producing sulphur smells or whatever, or what we'd just call cooking the battery a bit. These are designed with being installed in mobile home/ caravan interiors etc.... so no smells etc...

Not sure if i'm misunderstanding something here.... whats this..solar on xxx  , solar off xx  i thought you're meant to just leave it on so its charging before you even get to your van, and other way round at the end of your day ?

I switch it on and off for the research purpose really , plus the watt meters i use are not self powered , 3 of them in total , if i left them on it would be a drain on bat , as it is i dont miss much sun before i start and i take the readings at start and finish of cleaning to get an accurate measure of what is in and out , after i finish i get a fair bit more on the solar in side of things which is a big bonus , as i said todays full work set me back 3 amps , but i switched it off for the bench charge test when i got home .

[Spruce]

Don't worry about the Numax being sealed or maintenance free. They will tollerate higher vehicle charging voltages of 14.5 volts without issue.

I opened my Oldham battery to check water levels and I didn't see one bubble coming off the plates on any of the cells. My battery gets a 14.4/14.5 volt kick everytime the engine is started.

The very nature of a battery is that it has an electrical resistance. I have a 90 amp alternator on my van but when that battery is getting to fully charged it will only accept a trickle or very slow charge of between half an amp and 1 amp. The battery will only accept what it needs.

Yes you can increase the rate of charge a battery receives by altering the charging algorithm but once a battery is fully charged it won't accept any more charge.

One of the time and tested ways of determining the quality of a leisure battery is weight. The heavier it is the more lead is inside it.

[P @ F]

Thats true about the weight , the Numax is 4kg heavier than the cheapie !
Its also now listed as a dual purpose battery , starter and deep cycle , looks like i paid a bit more but got the best of both worlds !

[Spruce]

Thats true about the weight , the Numax is 4kg heavier than the cheapie !
Its also now listed as a dual purpose battery , starter and deep cycle , looks like i paid a bit more but got the best of both worlds !

They are headed in that direction. Its a glorified Trojan traction battery concept. So if that hose reel motor draws 30 amps the battery is well equiped to deal with it.
The downside with weight is that its heavier to carry when you need to bench charge it.

But if you continue to 'loose' 3 amps a day that will easily be recovered over the weekend when the van is parked up. So atm you can expect to start the week off with a fully charged battery.

Now here's a thought. Now you have that dual purpose battery you could get a set of long length jumper leads and couple both batteries up together (van and leisure.) You will need to remove the battery terminals and wires on your leisure battery. So Positive to positive first and then negative to negative. You can then start your van and whilst you are filling the water tank and warming the engine up you will also be giving your leisure battery a boost voltage charge. 10 - 15  minutes is better than not doing anything at all.

.

[Og]

Trojan.

[P @ F]

Thats true about the weight , the Numax is 4kg heavier than the cheapie !
Its also now listed as a dual purpose battery , starter and deep cycle , looks like i paid a bit more but got the best of both worlds !

They are headed in that direction. Its a glorified Trojan traction battery concept. So if that hose reel motor draws 30 amps the battery is well equiped to deal with it.
The downside with weight is that its heavier to carry when you need to bench charge it.

But if you continue to 'loose' 3 amps a day that will easily be recovered over the weekend when the van is parked up. So atm you can expect to start the week off with a fully charged battery.

Now here's a thought. Now you have that dual purpose battery you could get a set of long length jumper leads and couple both batteries up together (van and leisure.) You will need to remove the battery terminals and wires on your leisure battery. So Positive to positive first and then negative to negative. You can then start your van and whilst you are filling the water tank and warming the engine up you will also be giving your leisure battery a boost voltage charge. 10 - 15  minutes is better than not doing anything at all.

.

Yet another good idea , but i am coming around to the wired relay bit you mentioned earlier , my bro can wire that in for me , i have a 10 mile motorway journey to and from work every day , that could make a fair difference to my shortfall .
Today i got 10.25 amps in with 10.75 out , to be honest if it goes like that all the time then i should not need any more upgrades, but the fun starts from now , im going to see how it fairs with just solar for a bit .
I would like to just leave the bat in the van and see what happens , but as its brand new i dont want to wreck it just yet !

[P @ F]

Hey Spruce , one thing that does puzzle me though is .........Lets just say i was to leave the battery in as of Monday , and just let nature take its course , as you know i note what comes in and goes out every day amp wise , would you base the need for a bench charge on that or would you go with what the voltage was at the end of each day ?
Every day its back up to 12.9 or higher by the time i have finished pottering about , is there a connection between amps and volts or could it still display 12.9 v and be short of say 20 amps ?

[P @ F]

And having said that , as its a nice sunny day here today , would putting the battery in and letting the solar controller reach float mode , then take it out and rest it for say 6 hours , then volt check and place onto smart charge and take note of how long that takes to register it as a fully charged battry .
The other day it took 2 hours at 3.75 amps to reach maintain so i knew it was short of 7.5 amps , this could then give me an indication as to what ampage the solar controller calls my battery full .
If this is feasable then surely i could just base my decision to bench on that , float mode no charge , bulk or absorb mode bench ?

[Spruce]

If you are going to fit a split charge relay (better a VSR) to your van, may I suggest you contact Vitron to get a wiring diagram of how to connect the wires up to make 100% sure that no damage is done to your MPPT controller. I would imagine that the terminals from the scr are connected to the leisure battery and when the engine is running the controller will see the battery as fully charged and switch the controller off, but I would check just to make sure.

The state of charge of a battery is only determined by voltage for a sealed or maintenance free battery. (If its a none maintenance battery with inspection and filler plugs then a hydrometer is also another method.)
So if your voltmeter shows 12.8/12.9v then you have to assume that your battery is fully charged. If you have a 105 amph battery then again you have to assume that you have 105 amp of available power. If you had a 110 or 115amp leisure battery then you would use those figures.

This is for lead acid batteries. I haven't studied new calcium batteries but their composition will be the same - just using different chemicals.

As the battery ages it looses it capacity due to sulphation of the plates. It will still show up as fully charged on your volt meter.  At one time the only way you could test the capacity of the battery was to fully charge it and then put a load test on it for a duration of time and see the results. So if the battery went flat when the load had taken 50 amps it would mean that the battery's capacity had dropped from the original 105 amp to 50. You will still be able to use your pump and would have no problem for a while if you used less than 25 amps a day. (Remember the 50% charge 'rule'. ) But sooner or later the battery will deteriorate until it didn't manage to get you through the day.
Some of the suppliers have come up with fancy equipment that supposedly can tell you the remaining battery capacity electronically with a short test. But I'm old and cynical.

Voltage and amps aren't the same thing although they are very dependant on each other. The voltage is the force or pressure (energy) applied to the current where amps is the amount of current being pushed  at a certain point.

Now you know that energy in a battery is the result of a chemical reaction thats happening in the battery's guts. So when my volt/amp meter tells me that its my alternator is charging my battery at 14.5 volts and 3 amps, its basically telling me that the amps are what its taking to complete the chemical reaction inside the battery.

BUT the fuller the battery gets the slower it accepts charge to complete this chemical reaction. So if I take my pump and run it for an hour and take 5 amps from my battery, it will take longer for the charger to replace it due to the deminishing charge acceptance of the battery. During the recharging state you could see an intial spike of the charger at 5 or 6 amps, but will quickly drop to 3 and then 2 and then 1.
You posted this earlier assuming that your charger pushed 3.5 amps into your battery for 2 hours. I'm not sure this is correct. In all probabilty the battery was fully charged (as near as damit) to start with and its my belief that it took 2 hours to replace the 3 amps shortfall.

 

Well i fitted the Numax battery today and what a difference , i was not hoping the sun would come out to give me a power boost , I worked from 10 to 3.30 , the solar took 10 amps in and the pump and power reel took 13 amps out , so on paper i used 3 amps all day , i decided to put the battery on the smart charger on the sealed setting to see what it would put back in , it took 2 hours to get to float mode , sealed setting provides 3.5 amps an hour , so 7 amps went in to make up the 3 amps taken out , not exact maths but close enough for me , after doing some sums i worked out that i got home with the battery at 90% charged  .

Every day its back up to 12.9 or higher by the time i have finished pottering about , is there a connection between amps and volts or could it still display 12.9 v and be short of say 20 amps ?

If your battery shows 12.9 volts after its stood idle for 4 hours then its fully charged. If your battery was 20 amps short it would mean that the voltage of the battery would reflect that as it would be lower.

Lets go back to our 105 amp example. If your battery is short of 20 amps, it means that you have 85 amp left. That is just over 80% charged. The battery voltage when left to stabilise will probably be in the region of 12.5 to 12.6v on your voltmeter.

PS. As far as I'm aware the only battery that will charge fast and at the same rate until fully charged is a Lithium ion battery.  But there is no way I'm going to spend £950 for a 110 amp battery for that feature.

.

[P @ F]

Got it , so its still best to go with the voltage after resting , if that is the case then i will just leave it in and periodically check it to see if benching is required , im going to hold fire on piggy backing the batteries for now and see how i go .
The solar pretty much went straight to float earlier when i said what i was going to do , it has now rested for at least an hour and is reading at 13.2 volt , i will let it go until at least 6pm before i put the charger on it , if if only takes an hour this time to hit maintain then worst case is that it was short of 3.75 amps maximum  , i will put my faith in the solar controller getting to float each day , if i can get to float at days end each day im on a winner in that regard .
Im off to crawl under the van now , oil and filter change time ! 

[Spruce]

Got it , so its still best to go with the voltage after resting , if that is the case then i will just leave it in and periodically check it to see if benching is required , im going to hold fire on piggy backing the batteries for now and see how i go .
The solar pretty much went straight to float earlier when i said what i was going to do , it has now rested for at least an hour and is reading at 13.2 volt , i will let it go until at least 6pm before i put the charger on it , if if only takes an hour this time to hit maintain then worst case is that it was short of 3.75 amps maximum  , i will put my faith in the solar controller getting to float each day , if i can get to float at days end each day im on a winner in that regard .
Im off to crawl under the van now , oil and filter change time !

If your MPPT controller is going to float then the battery is fully charged and in a maintenance mode. Putting a charger onto it won't do that much.

Flip. I've got a 5 liter container of 5W 30 engine oil for my Hdi Citroen Relay in my 'office'. With a new oil filter it cost me £22.00.
As a manufacturer Citroen recommend Total oils and lubricants. The bulk oil deliveries for workshop comsumables weren't Total. They were a cheap substitute sold at a massive markup.

I'm don't know what Fiat recommend for your van engine but I know that years back the oil they recommended for Alpha 156 2.4 turbo diesel was laced with gold it was that expensive.

[P @ F]

They recomend Petronas selinia which actually has fiat specs on the label , none of the others did , they all were specced up as pugeot / citroen , for bipper nemo i suppose .
The oil at halfords was priced at £40 anyway , i paid around £50 i think so not too bad , i will just look at it as £1 a week for peace of mind !   

[Spruce]

They recomend Petronas selinia which actually has fiat specs on the label , none of the others did , they all were specced up as pugeot / citroen , for bipper nemo i suppose .
The oil at halfords was priced at £40 anyway , i paid around £50 i think so not too bad , i will just look at it as £1 a week for peace of mind !

Yep. That was the same oil I just couldn't remember what it was called.

[P @ F]

All in and done now , probably just placebo effect but what a difference on start up , seemed smoother and quieter than usual .
But then i did leave it 10k and 2 years

[NWH]

That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

[P @ F]

That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

Looks like another job for " SOLAR GIMP " hold tight i'll be with you in a jiffy 

[P @ F]

Got it , so its still best to go with the voltage after resting , if that is the case then i will just leave it in and periodically check it to see if benching is required , im going to hold fire on piggy backing the batteries for now and see how i go .
The solar pretty much went straight to float earlier when i said what i was going to do , it has now rested for at least an hour and is reading at 13.2 volt , i will let it go until at least 6pm before i put the charger on it , if if only takes an hour this time to hit maintain then worst case is that it was short of 3.75 amps maximum  , i will put my faith in the solar controller getting to float each day , if i can get to float at days end each day im on a winner in that regard .
Im off to crawl under the van now , oil and filter change time !

Result , At 7.15 pm i put it on charge with the voltage at 13.15 volt.
                 By 7.35 pm it was floating with a voltage of 13.50 volt.

Think i will go with the solar controller being on float as my guide , seems like a winner to me  .

[P @ F]

That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

Hold your horses NWH , i have seen a battery with that kind of spec , i will see if i can find a link for you .

[P @ F]

That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

Hold your horses NWH , i have seen a battery with that kind of spec , i will see if i can find a link for you .

This is what i saw with 1 hour charge time , not lithium i think , but at a third of the price it could be worth a punt , Spruce could offer his knowledge if he sees this !

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/platinum-95ah-odyssey-tppl-battery-p367648

[NWH]

Thanks for that like I say I'm having a lot of problems due to the diesel heater,the other day i put a 115amp battery on charge at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and turned it off in the following morning on a CTek charger. I probably only get  2-3 cycles of startup on the heater before due to the battery dropping by to between 11-11.5v on the battery it  switches it off I have to keep turning the heater on and off manually on the controller in order for it to start up again.

[Spruce]

That Lithium ion battery that's £950 only takes an hour to fully charge,I'm gonna call them Monday there's a dealer in Hampshire,I'm having so
much trouble keeping my diesel heater running due to battery's dying because of it. If I could plug this other one into the mains and charge it in an hour it would be money well spent imo.

Hold your horses NWH , i have seen a battery with that kind of spec , i will see if i can find a link for you .

This is what i saw with 1 hour charge time , not lithium i think , but at a third of the price it could be worth a punt , Spruce could offer his knowledge if he sees this !

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/platinum-95ah-odyssey-tppl-battery-p367648

I've never seen this before.

What I would need clarification on is what size charger is needed to fully charge the battery that fast.

I expect you would have to upgrade your alternator to one with a much higher spec and the battery cables to this battery would have to be really heavy duty. Then you have to consider the relay/seperator.

Would one be able to achieve a charge this fast 'out in the field?'

.

[NWH]

I've never known anyone in my area have a problem with battery's with just powering a pump or 2,as soon as a diesel heater is introduced into the loop it sucks em dry within no time. A know a couple that have had all there pumps wired through to the vehicle battery on numerous vans,they've never had issues with the battery side of things.

[Nameless Drudge]

Seems a very costly upgrade,you could put 2  x  115ah in parallel and have 12v and 230ah  though unless you get an expensive charger you would need to charge them separately .But then if you are going to have 2 batteries then it's probably easier to have one dedicated to the heater and one for the pump or pumps,2 lithium even!

[NWH]

My thinking is to get this new one and use it for the heater only and charge it every couple of days,the battery's are 2x115amp in parrelel at the moment they still drain quick when charged.

[Nameless Drudge]

Are you charging them separately or do you have a charger that can  cope  x2 ? If you don't then the batteries are never being fully charged. The charger doesn't know there are 2 and it could be easily confused without getting in to a full technical explanation.

[NWH]

I have 2 inline both 115 amp split charged I think my main problem is that they are both never fully charged although 1 fully charged with a split charger should give me at least a couple of days.

[P @ F]

What heater do you have NWH ?
SAJ has had them in most of his vans , and to my knowledge he has had no battery problems , heater problems by the handful but no battery failure , he runs scr i think , hes too lazy to take them out .
I think he uses the Heatwave from Varitech , if the same i will ring him for you and find out what his setup consists of .

[Nameless Drudge]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CTEK-MXS-10-8-Stage-Battery/dp/B005O8YG44,
One of these,batteries connected negative to negative and positive to positive with sturdy clamp and cable,charger connected to the negative of one battery and the positive of the other so it thinks it's charging one big 12v 230 ah battery,split charge,which unless you are doing lots and lots of miles is neither here nor there,connected the same.Pumps and heater connected the same,negative from one to positive the other one and the CTEK  connected every night after individually charging each one to full to start on a level playing field.I think this should work well.

[Nameless Drudge]

Actually that charger doesn't quite cut the mustard,be good for 2x 95 ah though.

[Spruce]

Thanks for that like I say I'm having a lot of problems due to the diesel heater,the other day i put a 115amp battery on charge at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and turned it off in the following morning on a CTek charger. I probably only get  2-3 cycles of startup on the heater before due to the battery dropping by to between 11-11.5v on the battery it  switches it off I have to keep turning the heater on and off manually on the controller in order for it to start up again.

My first guess is this is battery related.

The problem with leisure batteries is that they require a tickle discharge and that's why they are so different to starter batteries.

Some of the new Numax leisure batteries are heading toward dual applications. They can be used as starter as well as leisure batteries as they have a CCA rating. So imho I would certainly try one of these batteries.

I have not been able to find any initial draw current specs on the Webasto diesel water heaters. My own is still waiting patiently on the garage work bench to fit an array of modifications I have dreamt up. More later.

I do have a Eberspacher Airtronic diesel air heater installed in the van. On start up it draws around 18 amps in pulses heating the glowpin up needed to fire the heater up. This lasts for approx 3 minutes which by then the heater is well started. The heater then draws around 2.5 amps until the cabin reaches close to the temperature set on the controller. It then kicks into reduced heating mode where it draws 1.5 amps.

Now as Webasto owns Eberspacher we can assume that similar technology goes into both products.  Webasto say that the 90ST draws a maximum current of 90 watts (7.5amps) on full mode and 37 watts (3amps) on tickover mode.
I can't believe that the heater would draw any more than 20 amps on startup but it could be fractionally higher because of the circulation pump.

So on start up using a single battery you will have a draw of 20 amps and if you are running 2 wfp pumps the current draw will be around 30 amps. That's heading out of standard leisure battery abilities.

 A good indication is going back to the caravan world. Will the leisure battery you are using support a caravan mover? For example, Platium leisure battery manufacturers advise against using their 75 amp  battery with one. Its OK for leisure camping but not suitable for wild camping.
http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/85-ah-platinum-leisure-battery-685l/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3MvH98i91gIVCrftCh32_gepEAQYBSABEgLoQ_D_BwE

I planned to add a third heat exchanger into my heater linked with a temperature controller. The idea was that when I'm busy talking the diesel heater will still be building up internal temperature. When the heater reaches reduced heat mode I want to program the controller to switch a pump on and bleed the excess heat back to the tank. This will be programmed to cut off  when that's done and hopefully by that time I'm working again.
(There are 3 different heating mode settings on 90ST diesel heaters. The common one is when the water temperature reaches 72ºC, the heater will switch to a lower output.  The combustion air motor speed and fuel pump delivery are reduced.

If the coolant temperature continues to rise by a further 10ºC, the heater will then automatically stop combustion, fuel delivery will cease and the flame within the combustion chamber will be extinguished.  The heater will then commence a 180 second purge cycle.

The heater is now in stand-by mode.  The green operation light will still be illuminated and the water pump will continue to circulate the hot water.  The heater will automatically restart if the water temperature falls by 15 C, going through the same start cycle as before.
So I would program my temperature controller to switch the third pump on at around 76 degrees and switch the pump off at around 67 degrees C  - within the reduced combustion/heat mode window and just keeping the heater on tickover.)

This will certainly reduce the number of stop and the restarts.

Ionics get around this by fitting a pressure relief valve on the delivery line which activates at 65psi. The problem with this is that the wfp pump runs continously.  When you are cleaning windows you will have enough pressure below 65psi to delivery water to your brush head.  When you switch off your water to the pole, the pressure will build up above 65psi and the pressure relief valve beeds that hot water back to the tank. So your controller needs to be set higher than 65 psi.

.

[P @ F]

NWH , you could just have the same problem that i had , my battery was 10 month old and was registering as fully charged on smartcharger every morning , it was struggling more and more , i took all solar connections off and ran as a normal system , it went from fully charged to BAT being displayed on flow controller in 1 hour .
I think the battery was totally sulphated due to not being properly charged , it was most likely only 50 % charged when i thought it was full .
You could well have the same problem .

[P @ F]

Doh  , Spruce just said that !

[P @ F]

Whatever happens , as you pull so many amps while working , you will i assume have to bench everything every night or have some serious SCR stuff on the van , i have learnt that keeping the battery as full as you can is the key to keeping it tip top .

[P @ F]

Given the choice i would rather spend £950 with the guidance of Spruce than on a lithium battery that could go the same way , and i could imagine the trouble it would take to get a £950 battery replaced under warranty , most of the companies see us not as leisure battery users but leisure battery abusers !
Spruce told me that , And when i got the Numax last week , the salesman said that " Any warranty is pretty much void for you as you are a window cleaner arn't you mate ? " ......... I just knew that was coming 

[Spruce]

Given the choice i would rather spend £950 with the guidance of Spruce than on a lithium battery that could go the same way , and i could imagine the trouble it would take to get a £950 battery replaced under warranty , most of the companies see us not as leisure battery users but leisure battery abusers !
Spruce told me that , And when i got the Numax last week , the salesman said that " Any warranty is pretty much void for you as you are a window cleaner arn't you mate ? " ......... I just knew that was coming 

Now Grippatank sell Numax batteries. They advertise a 3 year warranty. I wonder how the warranty works from their side?

.

[Don Kee]

Spruce/P&F, in your opinion are AGM batteries worth the extra for our type of usage?

[P @ F]

Dont ask me , all i did was ask Spruce , i just did what i was told .
I prefer to be known as the SOLAR GIMP 

But for what its worth , i did ask at a few places about using AGM , they all gave a  face and said best with lead acid .

[Spruce]

Spruce/P&F, in your opinion are AGM batteries worth the extra for our type of usage?

Hi Don.
I have no personal experience with AGM batteries. There was a member on here at one time (haven't seen him for ages) who replaced his troublesome lead acid leisure batteries with AGM and he was happy with their performance.

On paper AGM batteries for window cleaning don't seem to add up imo.  Why would I spend £175 on a 48 amph Optima AGM battery.
https://www.tayna.co.uk/Optima-Yellow-Top-Battery-YTR-3.7-8040-222-BCI-D35-YTR3.7-AGM-P9092.html

That's half the size of a 105 amph Numax leisure battery at twice the cost. With 2 pumps all day (4 hours each on an 8 hour day) running that battery there isn't much reserve capacity left. So I would have to charge this battery every night. No charging = no working the following day. what I would find more concerning is the few days a year we do a large commercail job and those pumps run longer than 4 hours each a day.

Again on another website they mention that a user shouldn't rely on the vans alternator to keep the battery in a fully recharged state. They also recommend a charger of around 10 amps to preserve the life of the battery.

They call it a high performance battery but what we want from a high performance battery isn't the same as what we require.  As numax say, window cleaners are battery.

It would be good to hear if someone else has tried this route. I'm sure there would have been lots of threads on the topic if a few had successfully tried them.

.

[Spruce]

Dont ask me , all i did was ask Spruce , i just did what i was told .
I prefer to be known as the SOLAR GIMP

But for what its worth , i did ask at a few places about using AGM , they all gave a  face and said best with lead acid .

I honestly believe your leap into solar has been a very interesting journey for all of us Rich, one which will continue for a while longer.  I have been just as curious of the outcome as I'm sure many others are as well. I'm sure its an inspiration to  many others as well as to me.
I thank you for taking us on this journey and look forward to your progress through winter.

Its been much more fun than painting your VW pink.    Saying that, if you could do that then there isn't much you can't turn your hands to.

[P @ F]

Dont ask me , all i did was ask Spruce , i just did what i was told .
I prefer to be known as the SOLAR GIMP

But for what its worth , i did ask at a few places about using AGM , they all gave a  face and said best with lead acid .

I honestly believe your leap into solar has been a very interesting journey for all of us Rich, one which will continue for a while longer.  I have been just as curious of the outcome as I'm sure many others are as well. I'm sure its an inspiration to  many others as well as to me.
I thank you for taking us on this journey and look forward to your progress through winter.

Its been much more fun than painting your VW pink.    Saying that, if you could do that then there isn't much you can't turn your hands to.

Aww shucks , stop it , i'll be in tears in a minute 
Its nice to see that people actually are interested in pushing the envelope a bit , I have enjoyed it so far , I was at one point thinking that nobody really cares either way , I have already established that it an absolute dead cert that i can go through the summer not benching , but as you say , now is the winter of our discontent 
I could well end up being "That bloke that tried " over the winter but hey ,we are all wiser or will be come the cold season .
But you and me mate  " We're doin alright , we're gettin good grades , the futures so bright , we gotta wear shades "   

[Spruce]

Dont ask me , all i did was ask Spruce , i just did what i was told .
I prefer to be known as the SOLAR GIMP

But for what its worth , i did ask at a few places about using AGM , they all gave a  face and said best with lead acid .

I honestly believe your leap into solar has been a very interesting journey for all of us Rich, one which will continue for a while longer.  I have been just as curious of the outcome as I'm sure many others are as well. I'm sure its an inspiration to  many others as well as to me.
I thank you for taking us on this journey and look forward to your progress through winter.

Its been much more fun than painting your VW pink.    Saying that, if you could do that then there isn't much you can't turn your hands to.

Aww shucks , stop it , i'll be in tears in a minute 
Its nice to see that people actually are interested in pushing the envelope a bit , I have enjoyed it so far , I was at one point thinking that nobody really cares either way , I have already established that it an absolute dead cert that i can go through the summer not benching , but as you say , now is the winter of our discontent 
I could well end up being "That bloke that tried " over the winter but hey ,we are all wiser or will be come the cold season .
But you and me mate  " We're doin alright , we're gettin good grades , the futures so bright , we gotta wear shades "   

 

We already know winter is going to be a 'challenge'; what we don't know is the size of the challenge. But until now you would have had to bench charge your battery every few days in winter, now you may still have to do it but not a often as you did.
.

[P @ F]

Well today was weird , due to location of the work , all i can describe it as is Coronation street  , close houses both sides and no place to park without full shade on the panels .
From 10 am until 1pm i had no solar in at all , I then relocated and took lunch in the sun , i positioned the van on a slope in the hope that i would catch a few more amps than having them flat on the roof !
From 1pm until 2.45pm I pulled in 7.25 amps , I then drove home and left the van in the sun until 4.30pm , at this point i had managed to pull in 11.75 amps and the battery was in float mode , which is nice 
So come the end i had 11.75 amps in and 10.50 amps out , day 1 to me !

What i will do now is make a new thread , for those that are interested to see the results , I will head it as "daily solar result" , it will just have whats come in and whats gone out , from the time i start until the end of usable sun , maybe a weather condition and type of work carried out , that way people can determine if solar will work for them or not , also anybody that is bored to the back teeth of me blabbing on about it can just choose to avoid the thread instaed of wondering if this boring stuff is gonna pop up in one post or another , i cant say fairer than that eh   





   

[Den68]

I'm defo interested and will follow the new thread.

[P @ F]

I'm defo interested and will follow the new thread.

Thats what i like to see , cheers Den