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CleanClear

  • Posts: 15356
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2016, 11:53:17 pm »

The video you are referring to of the 'tank fail' is the very first prototype crash tested system we sent along for exploratory testing of designs and to start to understand the forces involved in restraining a system.

It really does look catastrophic and is if there was no restraint at all - however that is definitely not the case. It was a modular tank design with 850litres of water in it with screw-on lids. It did have a restraint system which weighed about 90kg and was very securely mounted into the van. It was a low-level perimeter frame mounting system (as favoured by many DIYers) along with restraint bars through the moulded centre of the tanks - these were all fixed with 16mm bolts through floor into spreader plates under the floor. We learned a lot from this 'failure' and used it to greatly improve subsequent designs and MIRA tests.

What happened in the accident-test  was:
1.  The tanks collapsed under the weight of the water (this was despite being tank standard 6mm thick polythene) - this was because despite feeling very strong the tank itself is flexible in a crash and without full height restraint at the front can move too far forward.
2. Due to the collapsing pressure of the water the lids were blown off and the tank ripped apart.
3. Then under the strain of this forward movement the restraints bolts and spreader plates (1/4 the size of the current ones) started moving forward and sliced through the floor pan like a knife through butter destroying several cross members as it slid through them.
4. The system had moved completely out of the cargo area, through the cab area and then the forward moving water ripped through the engine bay bulkhead.

At the time I was not very pleased with the end result  >:( - however as a learning tool it was invaluable and taught me a new respect for carrying such a concentrated (most of the vehicle's load in just a 1/6th of its load area) and fluid (as in its ability to change shape) load.

What we did learn has been incorporated into the current Grippamax systems:
Non-Modular increased strength tanks
Burst-proof lids
Low level tanks
Full 'honeycomb' baffling
Full height restraint system
T-Bar front and rear restraint bars with large bonded spreader plates

There are of course many different ways of securing a tank of water in a van - it is always up to each user to risk assess their load, the van and their method of fixing. As long as they are happy with their choice then that is all that really matters (as long as they do not have an Employee sitting next to them  :-X )

We tread a fine line between securing a load in our vehicles and "fitting a system" in our vehicles? All similar in principle, but legally miles apart. The fitting of any system i've ever seen would not meet the legally required standards for securing a load.
 I'll just do this loosley..........
 A load is required to be restrained to the load bed, its also required to be against the bulkhead of the vehicle, if this is not possible, due to weight distribution or other, then physical obsticals should be put in place to ensure contact with bulkhead. The load should also not be capable of  moving backwards (heavy acceleration).
 A fitted system doesn't attract so much scrutiny. Like i said, most if not all are secured to the load bed through a series of bolts and spreader plates. So, where's the mystery, where's the magic, what makes the "proffesional fitted system better" ?
  Well from what i can make out it all relys on a strong frame, bolted through the floor etc.. there is none of that "make sure the  load cannot come foreward, so secure it against the bulkhead", as it appears at least in a physical sense at least, its not needed. The securing to the floor will suffice. For a fitted system............................
   The amount of posts around this topic never fails to amuse me. "your safety", "think of your family", "A tonne of water behind your head"........etc. But in all them crash test videos i ever saw, the drivers legs where broke, his rib cage crashed in etc....and everyone wants to rave on....................the tank frame retained its integrity. Sure it did, that's what it was designed to do, in  every vehicle.
*Status*--------Currently Online---------

Dave Willis

Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2016, 08:19:13 am »
Well, the vehicle manufacturer is in charge of protecting the occupant as much as he can. The tank fitters can only protect their product really. In many vans if you shove an upright tank up against the bulkhead then the weight distribution is probably unbalanced - passengers, engine and load all shoved to the front. The worrying  thing is the damage the liquid caused in the failure film - ripping the tank apart. I think Alex said it damaged the engine bay bulk head  :o
It's up to us to secure our tanks as best we can but there are tested systems out there just seems daft to become overnight engineers and fit our own with straps and bits of wood when there are better alternatives.
You wouldn't pass a risk assessment on many fittings I've seen - you'd refuse to drive it.
Many refuse to climb a ladder to pull a tuft of grass out because it's so dangerous, they walk away from the job, climb back in the van and drive off in a death trap  ;D

David Beecroft

  • Posts: 300
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2016, 09:07:26 am »
Well, the vehicle manufacturer is in charge of protecting the occupant as much as he can. The tank fitters can only protect their product really. In many vans if you shove an upright tank up against the bulkhead then the weight distribution is probably unbalanced - passengers, engine and load all shoved to the front. The worrying  thing is the damage the liquid caused in the failure film - ripping the tank apart. I think Alex said it damaged the engine bay bulk head  :o
It's up to us to secure our tanks as best we can but there are tested systems out there just seems daft to become overnight engineers and fit our own with straps and bits of wood when there are better alternatives.
You wouldn't pass a risk assessment on many fittings I've seen - you'd refuse to drive it.
Many refuse to climb a ladder to pull a tuft of grass out because it's so dangerous, they walk away from the job, climb back in the van and drive off in a death trap  ;D
So this raises another side of the issue, Insurance. Does a fitted system, ie Grippamax/Ionics,  become a vehicle modification whereas using the existing bulkhead and fixing points simply mean load carrying? Where do the Insurance compamies stand on all of this?

David Beecroft

  • Posts: 300
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2016, 09:09:31 am »
Sorry I meant to quote the previous post from Clean Clear.  :)

Dave Willis

Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2016, 09:57:50 am »
Good question. My Insurance company wanted to know who installed the tank when I declared I carried 650l of water. I didn't ask any questions.

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 2019
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2016, 11:21:48 am »
My insurance when i started was cheaper because i had a system from ionics , i believe ionics must have met somebody from the insurance company to explain about the crash testing etc .

We all know insurance companies are con artists though , especially the no claims thing!

I now have a grippa tank and for me the its about what i think is less likely to hurt me in an accident .
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

Perfect Windows

  • Posts: 4303
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2016, 11:23:32 am »
If you're carrying 600 litres of water it weighs 600Kg.  In a typical 30mph accident you're likely to experience 20-30g.  So, at the upper end of that range:

One way to look at it is to imagine your van with a full tank of water standing on its nose and having a weight of 17,400*kg pushed down on the tank.  If the tank's up against a bulkhead or held with ratchet straps then you're fine if it will withstand this much force.  If not, it'll move.  This is just physics, not opinion.

The forces unleashed in an accident are much larger than you'd expect.

Vin

* Two old-style Routemaster buses would tip the scales at 15,000Kg.  So if your ratchet straps or bulkhead can withstand the weight of a couple of double deckers with about fifteen people on board each one, you'll be fine.

Tristan R Clean

  • Posts: 365
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2016, 11:50:07 am »
I think the whole tank in a cage thing needs to be re thought .
If the water is stored in a solid plastic tank ( always the case) it becomes more of a dangerous weapon in an an accident.
If the water was in a collapsible bag like tank . It would collapse on impact . You would just get wet! Better than squished.
Just my thoughts .

Tris

EandM

  • Posts: 2198
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2016, 01:49:57 pm »
How safe are pickups?
Do they need mounting too, it or are they safe enough strapped in?

Mine just  sits in the Tub. The insurance company is aware and  quite happy in that it's no different from carrying anything else of size and weight. Advantage is that there are two , independent steel bulkheads protecting the occupants and that the tank is unable to move due to it's location.

trafficjamz

  • Posts: 103
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2016, 04:02:10 pm »
That swings it for me.
My decisions now are... a) which one? b) 2nd hand or lease?
Current thinking is 2nd hand Navara or Hilux for around £7500.
But that's another matter

EandM

  • Posts: 2198
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2016, 10:07:34 am »
That swings it for me.
My decisions now are... a) which one? b) 2nd hand or lease?
Current thinking is 2nd hand Navara or Hilux for around £7500.
But that's another matter


The Navara is a very nice truck but be very careful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VnUSFPQQVg

The Hilux seems ok

The Ranger I would vouch for through 4 years experience and the attitude of local, tame mechanics.

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 2019
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2016, 07:26:04 pm »
I think the whole tank in a cage thing needs to be re thought .
If the water is stored in a solid plastic tank ( always the case) it becomes more of a dangerous weapon in an an accident.
If the water was in a collapsible bag like tank . It would collapse on impact . You would just get wet! Better than squished.
Just my thoughts .

Tris


You would get much more than wet , water moving with that speed and force will hurt you , possibly kill you .

In Alex's earlier post the tank that failed and shed its water, the force of the water ripped through the engine bulkhead .
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

David Beecroft

  • Posts: 300
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2016, 09:01:17 am »
OK, Thanks for everyone's input. I started this thread to get honest information regarding the need or otherwise for cages to be fitted to tanks for safety, these are my conclusions from what everyone's posted.
1. We all want to be safe in the working environment but like many issues in life the risks and consequences of a course of action can be played upon to "sell" us something, whether its a product or an idea. The perfect example is the mobile phone, how we now feel vulnerable, even unsafe if we set off on a journey and we've forgotten it when we all managed for most of our life without one.
2. The arguments in favour of the safety fitted systems could be applied to any substantial load  a tradesman carries in his van.
3. If the load, (500ltr water tank) both base and top, is tight up against a factory fitted steel bulkhead and properly secured according to the vehicle manufacturers instructions and fittings so there is no movement. I'm happy to feel reasonably confident.
4. While in certain circumstances a fully fitted "over engineered" system would make good business sense, the purpose of any business is to make profit for the owner not the suppliers to that business. So good business management suggests we must cut the cloth according to what is needed.

These are just my conclusions and not recommendations, everyone has to make up their own minds. I hope I haven't upset anyone and thanks to all who made serious comments. The more we communicate the better our industry will be.  ;)

dd

  • Posts: 2623
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2016, 09:08:29 am »
If you earn close to what many on here claim, spending an extra £1000 or so on e.g a grippa system which will give many years of service is actually a very minor outlay.

Perfect Windows

  • Posts: 4303
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2016, 11:56:33 am »
OK, Thanks for everyone's input. I started this thread to get honest information regarding the need or otherwise for cages to be fitted to tanks for safety, these are my conclusions from what everyone's posted.
1. We all want to be safe in the working environment but like many issues in life the risks and consequences of a course of action can be played upon to "sell" us something, whether its a product or an idea. The perfect example is the mobile phone, how we now feel vulnerable, even unsafe if we set off on a journey and we've forgotten it when we all managed for most of our life without one.
2. The arguments in favour of the safety fitted systems could be applied to any substantial load  a tradesman carries in his van.
3. If the load, (500ltr water tank) both base and top, is tight up against a factory fitted steel bulkhead and properly secured according to the vehicle manufacturers instructions and fittings so there is no movement. I'm happy to feel reasonably confident. Indeed you can drive with a light heart as long as you're confident of your bulkhead's ability to withstand the weight of a couple of lightly loaded double deckers.
4. While in certain circumstances a fully fitted "over engineered" system would make good business sense, the purpose of any business is to make profit for the owner not the suppliers to that business. So good business management suggests we must cut the cloth according to what is needed.

These are just my conclusions and not recommendations, everyone has to make up their own minds. I hope I haven't upset anyone and thanks to all who made serious comments. The more we communicate the better our industry will be.  ;)

Dave Willis

Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2016, 12:32:12 pm »
Who says the tank won't go through the bulkhead? Someone on the internet or Mira or an Engineer?
I think your mind was made up before you asked to be honest I don't think you wanted to spend the money to make your van as safe as possible. Your choice of course but I'd rather do everything possible to make mine safe even if it cost money. I can't rely on a hunch that it won't move or some bloke on the internet saying his is safe even though he's fitted it the wrong way round and relies on an inch deep lip to hold it back.
You can't take that chance in my opinion. If my family or an employee got injured at least I know I've tried all I can within my power to make it as safe as I can.

Soupy

  • Posts: 21263
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2016, 06:26:20 am »
Someone (probably Vin or Matt, cause they're so insightful) once said that during a gold rush it's the guy selling the shovels who makes all the money.
#FreeTheBrightonOne
#aliens

David Beecroft

  • Posts: 300
Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2016, 08:26:19 am »
I found this report in my search, it makes interesting reading (I'm only up to page 30!). It clarifies some of the issues regarding panel vans securing loads. I made the comparison between HGV  and LGV load securing , this report explains why you can't compare the two. It also talks about load positioning in relation to bulkhead and the difference between home made bulkheads and factory fitted (crumple zone) bulkheads. It makes the point that an unsecured load in the middle of the load bed as compared to one secured tight up to the bulkhead becomes 10x its own weight at a 30mph head on collision. I think there's something in this for everyone on each side of the argument.
http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/downloads/loading_of_vehicles/technical_reference_on_cargo_restraint.pdf

David Beecroft

  • Posts: 300

8weekly

Re: tank cages necessary?
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2016, 01:30:34 pm »
I found this report in my search, it makes interesting reading (I'm only up to page 30!). It clarifies some of the issues regarding panel vans securing loads. I made the comparison between HGV  and LGV load securing , this report explains why you can't compare the two. It also talks about load positioning in relation to bulkhead and the difference between home made bulkheads and factory fitted (crumple zone) bulkheads. It makes the point that an unsecured load in the middle of the load bed as compared to one secured tight up to the bulkhead becomes 10x its own weight at a 30mph head on collision. I think there's something in this for everyone on each side of the argument.
http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/downloads/loading_of_vehicles/technical_reference_on_cargo_restraint.pdf
I saw that the other day. It supports my feeling that a tank strapped up against a bulkhead is a safer option than one with a homemade frame away from the bulkhead. Ofcourse, if it was in a frame and against the bulkhead it would be safer still.