[Shane sharples]

Mine is in a cage AND ratchet strapped, it's like wearing 2 condoms if you get my drift

[cgh window cleaning]

Most people that strap tanks in do so for one main reason and that is it's cheaper.
Safety dosn't come in to it.
With a crash tested system the manufacturer has invested time and money to see how that system performs in a crash.
Straps Are used in the heavy transport industry I'm sure their fine but then again I don't know the facts I'm not the expert.

I'm sure if straps were completely safe for installing tanks then one of the brands would have brought a cheap value  range out that you strap in your self  but no one has.

[Susan Dean (1stclean)]

I had my first grippamax system installed in 2014.

850L system.

A The van drives like it's not carrying water.

B The frame work and tank is heavily over engineered.

C Everyone claims to earn £10000000's cleaning windows so 3-5 k on a system is nothing.

Completely agree I have a grippa system and don,t regret spending the money on it one bit.
The fact the tank handles so well and is crash tested is one of the reasons I choose grippa.
I have a full steel bulkhead in van in the event of a crash ever happening I want to reduce the risk to my self and others as much as possible. So a fitted system was the only option.

Thank for all your mentions of our brand and your experience with it.

We would also add that water is an unstable load, and the velocity of the water traveling unpredictably in an accident is one of the key reasons to a properly designed and professionally fitted system. This system should be both  accredited and manage the water correctly amongst a number of different features.

Please do let us know if we can help any further.

and you have poof of this if so you will be sending all your finding to all the van makers in the world as your bound by duty of care laws to do so ?

[Susan Dean (1stclean)]

Most people that strap tanks in do so for one main reason and that is it's cheaper.
Safety dosn't come in to it.
With a crash tested system the manufacturer has invested time and money to see how that system performs in a crash.
Straps Are used in the heavy transport industry I'm sure their fine but then again I don't know the facts I'm not the expert.

I'm sure if straps were completely safe for installing tanks then one of the brands would have brought a cheap value  range out that you strap in your self  but no one has.

eddie stobart ships millions of tonnes of cargo using just straps in every thing from ships of transit connects I guess they know a thing or two a bout straps

[Dave Willis]

Don't suppose they sit about four inches in front of a ton load with no protection though. Most have two bulkheads between them and the cargo.

[Dave Willis]

Personally with an upright tank I think the strapping angles are all wrong for ratchet straps. The centre of gravity is high and the strapping eyes are generally too thin and too close to the tank, but then I know nothing.

[Perfect Windows]

eddie stobart ships millions of tonnes of cargo using just straps in every thing from ships of transit connects I guess they know a thing or two a bout straps

The difference is that, in an accident,  a 40 ton lorry will decelerate at a much lower rate than a small van.  It's the deceleration that will cause a load to break whatever it is that might be holding the load back.

Vin

[AuRavelling79]

I think sensible precautions should be made.

Couriers carry all sorts of stuff in the backs of their vans and use the provided D-ring or similar strapping points. Said vans have a payload. So in simple terms if you have a 1000kg payload you might well strap a heavy metal motor (e.g.) in the back that weights say 500kg.

Builders carry cement mixers, battery suppliers carry lorry batteries, garages have drums of oil delivered.

I don't hear of many incidents of loads letting go and killing occupants when these loads have been strapped down as per guidelines.

I believe the guidelines are that if you have a manufacturer's fitted bulkhead the heavy object should not exceed half the payload if placed against the bulkhead and strapped down to the eye points.

... ...

My tank and assembly when full probably weigh 720kg (Payload 1070kg) and so I have taken greater precautions.

As for me I had four pieces of angle iron (75mm x 75mm at the front and sides and 110mm x 110mm at the back), welded into a frame so that my flat 650L Wyedale tank could sit "in" it and so that the tank's upper forward edge touched the factory fitted bulkhead.

The two baffle "holes" in the tank each have a 5 tonne ratchet strap wound round the 110 x 110 mm angle iron three times and ratcheted taut.

The angle iron has several M16 high tensile bolts through the floor to spreader plates or lengths of 75 x 75 angle iron underneath. This has all been rustproofed and undersealed.

I believe that this is sufficient for everyday driving.

[Smudger]

Good post mr gold,

In the event of a crash that frame work will be the least damaged part of the van.

Momentum is the key, baffle the tank and up against the bulk head and no matter the impact the tank can not move forward. Flat tanks are safer than upright due to low centre of gravity. 

Only when you start putting the tank in the centre of the load area do you invite problems as that meter of space is where the tank decodes a deadly object.

Bolts and speaker plates will give very good anchor points so if the tank is in a cage or strapped it's not going to move.

But alas, it's a repeating subject that neither side are willing to concede the others valid points, just extreme theoretical situations where quite frankly anything other than an Abrahams tank could not survive.

Darran

[CleanClear]

Don't suppose they sit about four inches in front of a ton load with no protection though. Most have two bulkheads between them and the cargo.

I remember this case very well................

http://www.ppconstructionsafety.com/newsdesk/2009/01/30/moving-loads-safely/
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/local-news/company-fined-150k-after-lorry-6968482

To the best of my knowledge, i'll stand to be corrected.............it was not infact sheet steel, it was steel tubes. They where strapped down. They where loaded shy of the bulkhead, and of course slid and came through. This could of been avoided by loading against the bulkhead, and from my recollection of posters and advice given in the docks at the time that was the recommendation.

So, what that mean for our water tanks ? I've never seen any fitted a different way, they all rely on a strong frame, hoping it does not distort, and a bolt and spreader plate through the floor. A one size fits all scenario. In the event of a good bump, you'd be lucky for it not to rip and distort the floor, effectivley writing the van off. Of course, you'll be safe (ish) , hopefully.

Just why any of the existing tank "installers", and thats basically all any of them are, do not utilise the vehicles own strength and incorporate the tank fitting into the existing bulkhead,or prefabricate some sort of bulkhead in the form of bars from pillar to pillar where not only is it safer and stronger, its less likely to damage the vehicle is beyond me. They all just follow suit and bolt and spreader plate through the floor.

Some people laugh at ratchetted in tanks, and same people pay a fortune for safe systems standing isolated in the middle of the back of their van. The same system that goes in ANY van, and thinks they've got a good deal. Probably the same people who are spending a fortune on pads and discs as they carry "a heavy load", that sort of mentality.

[Dave Willis]

I don't think a thin bulkhead would hold it.      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnFyMqPER3g   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrbvYwVQWZw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usI6qFzfpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w56cXOXtrrk

[slap bash]

I have a 350-liter tank held down with 3 5 tonne straps and I check it every year to see if its holding and if it moved. Never a inch out of it. They are connected to the Ford Connect standard points in the van and never a problem. My van does have a factory fitted builkhead.

[Shane sharples]

Never had a problem lol you mean you've never had an accident to find out if there's a problem

[trafficjamz]

How safe are pickups?
Do they need mounting too, it or are they safe enough strapped in?

[Smudger]

I don't think a thin bulkhead would hold it.      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnFyMqPER3g   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrbvYwVQWZw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usI6qFzfpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w56cXOXtrrk

Problem with that video is its for sales the non grippa tank appears to have no restraint at all, it's also allowed to travel to the cab if already against a bulk head then it would not breach it,  as clean clear pointed out the best way would be a second bulk head using the vans structural pillars

Darran

[Alex Gardiner]

I don't think a thin bulkhead would hold it.      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnFyMqPER3g   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrbvYwVQWZw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usI6qFzfpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w56cXOXtrrk

Problem with that video is its for sales the non grippa tank appears to have no restraint at all, it's also allowed to travel to the cab if already against a bulk head then it would not breach it,  as clean clear pointed out the best way would be a second bulk head using the vans structural pillars

Darran

The video you are referring to of the 'tank fail' is the very first prototype crash tested system we sent along for exploratory testing of designs and to start to understand the forces involved in restraining a system.

It really does look catastrophic and is if there was no restraint at all - however that is definitely not the case. It was a modular tank design with 850litres of water in it with screw-on lids. It did have a restraint system which weighed about 90kg and was very securely mounted into the van. It was a low-level perimeter frame mounting system (as favoured by many DIYers) along with restraint bars through the moulded centre of the tanks - these were all fixed with 16mm bolts through floor into spreader plates under the floor. We learned a lot from this 'failure' and used it to greatly improve subsequent designs and MIRA tests.

What happened in the accident-test  was:
1.  The tanks collapsed under the weight of the water (this was despite being tank standard 6mm thick polythene) - this was because despite feeling very strong the tank itself is flexible in a crash and without full height restraint at the front can move too far forward.
2. Due to the collapsing pressure of the water the lids were blown off and the tank ripped apart.
3. Then under the strain of this forward movement the restraints bolts and spreader plates (1/4 the size of the current ones) started moving forward and sliced through the floor pan like a knife through butter destroying several cross members as it slid through them.
4. The system had moved completely out of the cargo area, through the cab area and then the forward moving water ripped through the engine bay bulkhead.

At the time I was not very pleased with the end result  - however as a learning tool it was invaluable and taught me a new respect for carrying such a concentrated (most of the vehicle's load in just a 1/6th of its load area) and fluid (as in its ability to change shape) load.

What we did learn has been incorporated into the current Grippamax systems:
Non-Modular increased strength tanks
Burst-proof lids
Low level tanks
Full 'honeycomb' baffling
Full height restraint system
T-Bar front and rear restraint bars with large bonded spreader plates

There are of course many different ways of securing a tank of water in a van - it is always up to each user to risk assess their load, the van and their method of fixing. As long as they are happy with their choice then that is all that really matters (as long as they do not have an Employee sitting next to them  )

[Clever Forum Name]

Like i said in my interview with Lee.

The reason i went for the grippamax system is because the frame work bolts to the tank. In one of those Ionics videos you see the frame crack and the tank move. A simple DIY fame may not be up to the job and could fail easily.

[Susan Dean (1stclean)]

and what [people also forget if you drill chassis of a brand new van and don't get it sign off via the main dealer it can and sometime will viod warranty on the van ,

we had this when I rang v.w. uk  when we were fitting the truck mount in the t5 it was a night mere to get it pasted ,

[David Beecroft]

Thats a very enlightening video of the crash test Alex, I'm sure you did learn a lot from it. However the load was in the middle of the cargo area and there was no bulkhead. If there was a bulkhead and the tank was tight up to it, hence support for the upper portion of the tank, what would the results have been?
As I said before I'm here to be convinced, I'm not being sceptical for the sake of it. 

[trafficjamz]

Can't find anything about the safety of carrying a tank in a pickup.  There are 2 bulkheads that should help.
I've been tempted to get a pickup route for over a year now, and this thread has got me a little worried about my strapped 650 tank in a vivaro