[PoleKing]

they wouldn't, would they. They're addicts. Looking to run away from whatever rather than deal with their problem. The fact is, no-one forced them (on the whole I'd imagine) to drink to excess or start on 'soft' drugs. It was a choice they made. Followed by another choice to have another drink, when they finished that one, they chose again, all by themselves, to have another drink. One may not like it, but that is a fact. Even coerced to have another drink or enticed by advertising in one way or another, we all make our own choices.

Okay then, from my own experience, at no stage did I ever decide I was going to be an alcoholic.  In my yoof, I didn't think my drinking was any different from the next red-blooded-blokes; most of whom never became an alky; yet I became an alcoholic without even choosing to be one.

And - regardless of your ill-educated opinions - you'll find that alcoholism is classified as a mental health disorder by all respected medical health organisations; and again, it's strange to think that people would choose to have a mental health disorder.

You also seem to have missed the last line of the post as well, which states that even though alkies have not chosen to be such, they're 100% responsible for their recovery from said illness.

And we do not have free-will; if you think we do, use your 'free-will' to choose never to get angry ever again.  You will fail because your will isn't free; it's based on causes and conditions.

Understand all of that bud.
And your position.
Yes it could be a mental illness but it's not before one starts drinking. If you know what I mean.
Sorry Tosh, you did choose. Perhaps not a conscious decision, but you did choose to have that next drink.
I'm not trying to change your mind on how you feel, point the finger or anything else. Just stating my opinion.
We do have free will. Not ultimate free will but free will to a degree.

[Don Kee]

Pole king - How can you have free will to a degree? To be free is to have no restriction so how can you still have free will but only within certain criteria...?
You either have it or you dont....?

I have to say on the whol i'm finding myself agreeing with tosh...
There are alot of random and ill informed posts on this thread, and a few people who maybe read a little too much if the daily mail 

[PoleKing]

Pole king - How can you have free will to a degree? To be free is to have no restriction so how can you still have free will but only within certain criteria...?
You either have it or you dont....?

hmmm, looks like I'm wrong. You're right, it's either completely free, or it's not.
I'd like to modify my post to say, 'choice' instead.
People still choose how much they drink.

I have to say on the whol i'm finding myself agreeing with tosh...
There are alot of random and ill informed posts on this thread, and a few people who maybe read a little too much if the daily mail 

I agree with a lot of what Tosh says but he believes it wasn't his fault that he became an alcoholic.
But it was.
There were external influences and perceptions etc but he gave his money to the landlord in exchange for a pint. Under no duress. His choice. Same for every other drinker.
I don't read The Mail (used to read The Times or The Sun but it's rare I but the paper these days)
My perceptions on alcohol are based on my own family.
Every single member of my family on my dad's side is an alcoholic (my dad is dry now though)
It's definitely in me. At the moment though, I'm not an alcoholic. That may change in the future, I hope not, but I may succomb to my genes in time.
It's definitely there.
But at the moment, I'm choosing not to drink to excess.
If in the future I do end up an alcoholic, it will be entirely through my choosing.

[Tom White]

Sorry Tosh, you did choose. Perhaps not a conscious decision, but you did choose to have that next drink.

Lots of folk have that 'next drink' yet aren't alkies, nor do they become one. 

And I wonder if you can see the irony of your post?  If I don't make a conscious decision to become something, then where does my free will come into it?  Maybe you ought to think about what free will actually is?  You'll actually find - if you investigate it properly - that it's a mere illusion; there's a wealth of evidence which constitutes proof of this.

I also don't make a conscious decision to grow older, yet I still do.  Your logic would infer that I also choose to grow old too. 

Personally, I don't think being sober is a choice of mine either.  That happened because of a bunch of causes and conditions that came together at the right time.  Religious folk may call it 'God', but I'm not religious.

[PoleKing]

Sorry Tosh, you did choose. Perhaps not a conscious decision, but you did choose to have that next drink.

Lots of folk have that 'next drink' yet aren't alkies, nor do they become one. 

And I wonder if you can see the irony of your post?  If I don't make a conscious decision to become something, then where does my free will come into it?  Maybe you ought to think about what free will actually is?  You'll actually find - if you investigate it properly - that it's a mere illusion; there's a wealth of evidence which constitutes proof of this.

I also don't make a conscious decision to grow older, yet I still do.  Your logic would infer that I also choose to grow old too. 

Personally, I don't think being sober is a choice of mine either.  That happened because of a bunch of causes and conditions that came together at the right time.  Religious folk may call it 'God', but I'm not religious.

I think you know what I mean.
And I think you agree.

[Don Kee]

Lol yeah sorry, the daily mail bit was an opinion on a few peoples posts not specifically you mate!

By you describing alcoholism as 'in your genes' and that you may 'succumb' to it, surely you are suggesting that it isnt choice?
You are choosing not to fufill the temptation (if you have it) but not the alcoholism itself

You choose to drink but you dont choose to be an alcoholic...

Yes tosh may have drank a few too many, and this then may have led to him then 'needing a drink' (at some point i'd imagine you cross a line without realising) but by your suggestion, if the alcoholism was already in him he didnt choose to be an alkie  did he?

[Tom White]

I think you know what I mean.
And I think you agree.

I'm not sure I am.  If you're saying I chose to drink to much, I disagree.  And if you're saying I chose to be an alcoholic, I disagree with that too.  That would - on the face of it - be stupid.

I think the problem is that you don't understand what the problem is.  Alcoholism/addiction isn't a problem of choice, it's a problem of 'no choice'.  Humans are often driven by their feelings.  We feel and those feelings create intentions; feelings are the generator - the engine - of everything we do.  Feelings not only create intentions, but they condition intentions too.

Being mindful of our actions - as you are with your drinking - is great.  But I didn't have the choice to be mindful at the time.  And you're only mindful because you're smart enough to be mindful, I wasn't.  You didn't choose to be smart, either; that's based on causes and conditions (outside of your control) too.  So put that pride down, Poleking, you don't deserve it.  Credit it to God if you like.

I'm just helping you to be less judgemental.  If you still don't understand, I'm happy with that; no skin of my good-looking nose.

But knowing what I know now, if I could actually choose to be a recovered alcoholic, rather than a normal drinker, I'd choose to be an alcoholic any day. 

[rosskesava]

What about obese people?  They're killing themselves with food and placing huge burdens on society; particularly the health service.

Should the state protect them too?  Maybe they ought to put metal stakes into the aisle that sells doughnuts, and if they can't fit between them, then they're only allowed into the salad section?

How far does our nanny state go when it comes to removing individual responsibility and governing us like we're a daft sheep who knows no better?

In another post you're annoyed because you feel the way you're able to use language is restricted, yet you wish to restrict the freedoms of other individuals.

Can you reconcile this hypocrisy?   

My post was about one word and about it not being allowed to be used in the proper context out of fear of the politically correct. That's a wholly different scenario to the question of being allowed to be free, or not, to take any drug going.

Just because the state deems it sensible to place restrictions in certain areas, that does not necessarily mean it's a nanny state.

[Don Kee]

Anyone seen the top grossing free app on the app store??
Coincidence!!

[Tom White]

Anyone seen the top grossing free app on the app store??
Coincidence!!

100 Balls?

[Rogue Trader]

There is no difference between alcoholism and hard drug addiction , in fact alcohol is proven to be the most toxic substance and most physically damaging of all drugs. The real difference is the law,

Why do drug dealers push hard drugs? Because there is a demand for hard drugs, they are illegal so there is only one place to obtain them and that is from sometimes unscrupulous dealers.

How would it be if Alcohol was illegal but heroin ,cocaine etc was legal and available from the high street?

You got it , these scumbag lowlife dealers would be at your door pushing vodka and whiskey and absinthe to people with deteriorating and dying livers who are holding onto life by a thread,

What is the difference?

The law , nothing else.

[Tom White]

There is no difference between alcoholism and hard drug addiction ,

I disagree.  Alkies are the Elite when it comes to mental health problems and all other forms of addiction. 

[SeanK]

Pole king - How can you have free will to a degree? To be free is to have no restriction so how can you still have free will but only within certain criteria...?
You either have it or you dont....?

hmmm, looks like I'm wrong. You're right, it's either completely free, or it's not.
I'd like to modify my post to say, 'choice' instead.
People still choose how much they drink.

I have to say on the whol i'm finding myself agreeing with tosh...
There are alot of random and ill informed posts on this thread, and a few people who maybe read a little too much if the daily mail 

I agree with a lot of what Tosh says but he believes it wasn't his fault that he became an alcoholic.
But it was.
There were external influences and perceptions etc but he gave his money to the landlord in exchange for a pint. Under no duress. His choice. Same for every other drinker.
I don't read The Mail (used to read The Times or The Sun but it's rare I but the paper these days)
My perceptions on alcohol are based on my own family.
Every single member of my family on my dad's side is an alcoholic (my dad is dry now though)
It's definitely in me. At the moment though, I'm not an alcoholic. That may change in the future, I hope not, but I may succomb to my genes in time.
It's definitely there.
But at the moment, I'm choosing not to drink to excess.
If in the future I do end up an alcoholic, it will be entirely through my choosing.

What about a young teenager in an abusive family who turns to drink or drugs is it his or her fault.
Its not the same for every drinker or drug user some take it because their lives are a living hell.
By the way you don't need to drink to excess to become an alcoholic.
Being an alcoholic could mean you only drink a glass or bottle of wine on a Saturday night but must have
it every Saturday night.

[Don Kee]

Anyone seen the top grossing free app on the app store??
Coincidence!!

100 Balls?

Weed Firm!
A game were you have to grow plants and sell to people knocking at the door!

[8weekly]

Why do drug dealers push hard drugs?
The law , nothing else.

In my experience, drug dealers do not push hard drugs. They don't need to. They push drugs in the same way that a barman "pushes" alcohol. It is a daft notion. The idea of dealers hanging around schools to get kids started on drugs is daft too.

Who's getting ped at the show in Bridport over the weekend?

[rosskesava]

There is no difference between alcoholism and hard drug addiction , in fact alcohol is proven to be the most toxic substance and most physically damaging of all drugs. The real difference is the law,

Why do drug dealers push hard drugs? Because there is a demand for hard drugs, they are illegal so there is only one place to obtain them and that is from sometimes unscrupulous dealers.

How would it be if Alcohol was illegal but heroin ,cocaine etc was legal and available from the high street?

You got it , these scumbag lowlife dealers would be at your door pushing vodka and whiskey and absinthe to people with deteriorating and dying livers who are holding onto life by a thread,

What is the difference?

The law , nothing else.

There is a world of difference between a serious alcoholic and a heroin addict. Take some time and research it on the internet.

You start a sentence 'how would it be', which is a question and then answer it with 'you got it' as if it's already proven. The truth is there is no knowing the answer to that question.

The difference is, rightly or wrongly, alcohol is legal and drugs aren't.

Alcohol was in society long before modern laws were, hard drugs weren't.

[PoleKing]

I think you know what I mean.
And I think you agree.

I'm not sure I am.  If you're saying I chose to drink to much, I disagree. You chose how much you drank, it was too much, but you chose. And if you're saying I chose to be an alcoholic, I disagree with that too. I wasn't That would - on the face of it - be stupid.

I think the problem is that you don't understand what the problem is.  Alcoholism/addiction isn't a problem of choice, it's a problem of 'no choice'. There is always a choice. You may not like your options, but there will be a choice. Humans are often driven by their feelings.  We feel and those feelings create intentions; feelings are the generator - the engine - of everything we do.  Feelings not only create intentions, but they condition intentions too.

Being mindful of our actions - as you are with your drinking - is great.  But I didn't have the choice to be mindful at the time. You did. You chose not to be mindful.  And you're only mindful because you're smart enough to be mindful, I wasn't. There are levels of smart, some are further up the scale than others  You didn't choose to be smart, either; that's based on causes and conditions (outside of your control) too.  So put that pride down, Poleking, you don't deserve it.  Credit it to God if you like. Pride, me? Not really. Im a lot younger than you, having had (from what i can gather) a comparatively easier life. Nothing has really 'driven me to drink'. If i make 60, 70, 80 perhaps i could be proud of myself then, but not now. Not yet.
In fact i did post earlier, it's in my genes. It could only be a matter of time. And believe it or not, I'm not judgemental of you Tosh. Same as I'm not of my dad or the family. I realise that some of them saw the demon drink as their only way out. It wasn't, but they couldn't see that at the time.

I'm just helping you to be less judgemental.  If you still don't understand, I'm happy with that; no skin of my good-looking nose. I'm sure your nose is lovely, its the hole under it that lets you down

But knowing what I know now, if I could actually choose to be a recovered alcoholic, rather than a normal drinker, I'd choose to be an alcoholic any day. 
I get that. It gives you perspective. An, to a degree, freedom of speech.

[PoleKing]

Pole king - How can you have free will to a degree? To be free is to have no restriction so how can you still have free will but only within certain criteria...?
You either have it or you dont....?

hmmm, looks like I'm wrong. You're right, it's either completely free, or it's not.
I'd like to modify my post to say, 'choice' instead.
People still choose how much they drink.

I have to say on the whol i'm finding myself agreeing with tosh...
There are alot of random and ill informed posts on this thread, and a few people who maybe read a little too much if the daily mail 

I agree with a lot of what Tosh says but he believes it wasn't his fault that he became an alcoholic.
But it was.
There were external influences and perceptions etc but he gave his money to the landlord in exchange for a pint. Under no duress. His choice. Same for every other drinker.
I don't read The Mail (used to read The Times or The Sun but it's rare I but the paper these days)
My perceptions on alcohol are based on my own family.
Every single member of my family on my dad's side is an alcoholic (my dad is dry now though)
It's definitely in me. At the moment though, I'm not an alcoholic. That may change in the future, I hope not, but I may succomb to my genes in time.
It's definitely there.
But at the moment, I'm choosing not to drink to excess.
If in the future I do end up an alcoholic, it will be entirely through my choosing.

What about a young teenager in an abusive family who turns to drink or drugs is it his or her fault. Yes. There are other ways.
Its not the same for every drinker or drug user some take it because their lives are a living hell.
By the way you don't need to drink to excess to become an alcoholic.
Being an alcoholic could mean you only drink a glass or bottle of wine on a Saturday night but must have
it every Saturday night. Agreed. Perhaps i should've said drink to dependancy

[KS Cleaning]

There is no difference between alcoholism and hard drug addiction ,

I disagree.  Alkies are the Elite when it comes to mental health problems and all other forms of addiction. 

Shock! horror! Tosh disagrees.

[Paul Coleman]

I think that using the word "fault" in these scenarios is an integral part of the problem.  "Fault" and "blame" are great companions that can appear to have a symbiotic relationship with each other; yet they are nonentities.  How someone got to their rock bottom or what or who may have helped trigger that is irrelevant IMO.  The real issue is what someone does to sort their problems out - while bearing in mind that social acceptability and genuine recovery are not the same thing.  Many can start recovering and build socially acceptable lives after the debauchery - but it's what goes on inside that is the key to sustaining it.  I suppose someone could build a business with £10 million a year profit, have beautiful things to admire and have  loads of hangers on as "friends".  Such things are not worth a light if always feeling like jelly inside and fearing one's own shadow.

I think the problem with looking for a common denominator for causes of addiction is that there isn't one.  For some people it might be more about they started dabbling and it gradually took over; for someone else it might be about them having an undiagnosed psychiatric problem which gets blocked out by excesses; for someone else it might be about blocking out past trauma - even stuff that they didn't realise was trauma - and there are a whole range of circumstances that lead people to getting messed up.  In that I include people who had none of the preceding issues and may be totally baffled about how it happened.
So I put it out there that "taking the blame" and "taking responsibility" are different.  Not everyone seems to realise that.