[Londoner]

I know of two cases of people being nicked for using ladders. The first case was painters using ladders to paint some flats in Sheepcote Rd in Harrow.

The second case was some blokes renewing fasias on a house in South Oxhey.

Interestingly both were some time ago and I haven't heard of any since.

You can still use ladders but there is no reason to these days. If you do anything enough times something bad will happen eventually. There is always that difficult stretch on a windy day

[andrew hamshare]

The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......

They should have RUNG you first.

I'll get my coat

[G Griffin]

The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......

They should have RUNG you first.

I'll get my coat

  

[Silver Surfer]

The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......

They should have RUNG you first.

I'll get my coat

I like your "STILE"

[rosskesava]

Ross,

Then explain this piece of legislation (not advice):

(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,

I said I'd phone up the H & S and I did. I wished I hadn't.

Eventually, after being given loads of different numbers to phone by the Health and Safety people over the last 2 days, I spoke to someone who just referred me to the information on the H & S website. He claimed to be a 'working at heights' expert but refused to get drawn as to whether it's ok to use a ladder when you have a wfp system in the van that could do the job more safely but then also refused to say you couldn't.

He kept repeating that each window cleaner must make a judgement based on the preferred method of work for the job being done taking into account the risk and reducing those risks to a minimum and if that means a pole system is best, then that is what should be used. I kept saying that means there is no choice  and he kept saying there is.

I sort of ended up in a bit of an argument because to my mind, it's either you can chose to use a ladder or you can't. So I'm none the wiser.

..........................................................

About legislation as opposed to the WAHL's.

One thing he did say though that it is best to never go by legislation as I'd need a barrister who specialises in health and safety legislation to get a valid interpretation. The only time legislation is used in a court of law is when during a court case, someone for the defence or prosecution wants to set a precedence. Legislation is what gets passed by the government.

Anyway, the bloke then dismissed anything to do with legislation and said that health and safety rules and laws is what he deals with and not legislation.

[Tom White]

He kept repeating that each window cleaner must make a judgement based on the preferred method of work for the job being done taking into account the risk and reducing those risks to a minimum and if that means a pole system is best, then that is what should be used.

That is what the rules say!  You reduce the risks to a minimum by not working at height when you can do the job from the ground, when it is reasonably practical to do so.  If you must work at height because a window cannot be cleaned from the ground - for example above a large flat roof - then access equipment (such as ladders) can be used.

It's common sense.

I kept saying that means there is no choice  and he kept saying there is.

Maybe you should've asked a clearer question?  What do you mean exactly by 'there is no choice?'.

Are you saying that there is no choice to use ladders ever?  Or are you saying there's no choice to use a ladder when a WFP would do the job?

The first instance would be 'There is a choice', and the second would be 'No, there's no choice, it should be cleaned from the ground.'

[rosskesava]

In truth Tosh, if the bloke had said that wfp must be used always, I would have held my hands up and said I'd read the info on the H & S site wrong.

The phone call lasted about 30 minutes. I took short hand notes on the replies and I asked very clear well defined questions as I'd written them down before hand and I've a lot of experience in doing that type of thing in the past.

The bloke (his name was by coincidence Simon Cowell) would not answer or say that a ladder can or can not be used if I have wfp sitting in the van but then he said I must make an informed choice taking into account the job being done and too reduce the risks by choosing the safest option.

I kept saying that wfp is then the safest option everytime and he kept saying that I must decide that at each job, etc etc etc.

His answers were ambiguous. I've read through my notes and he does not say one thing or the other.

I cannot understand that if I must use wfp every time when possible, why he just did not say that. I ended up getting a bit narked and frustrated at the politician type answers.

I quoted the reference number of the leaflet about use of portable ladders for window cleaning and he said I should use that as guidance as even though it was published in 2003, the information is current. I said it implies I can use ladders all the time and he said that at each job........... and the same going round in circles type discussion then took place as had done before.

My conclusion is that I have no conclusive information, based on that phone call, on which to say one thing or the other as to what the rules are for using ladders or not.

[Tom White]

I guess he won't give a straight answer 'cos he doesn't want to be held accountable, but the directive seems clear enough to me.  I've read it closely and debated it with Phil Hanson - from the point of view of a ladder user (I was at the time) - and feel I have a good understanding of it.

It really does seem like common sense.  And the legislation doesn't hinge on the fact that if you don't have the equipment you can use a ladder, it hinges on the 'if you don't need to work at height, you shouldn't if it's reasonably practical to work from the ground'.  It then goes on to explain, if you must work at height (because it's not reasonably practical to work from the ground) how equipment should be used.  From memory it's schedule six that covers ladders.  From memory both top and bottom of the ladders have to be secured.

When I use a ladder, I don't secure top or bottom; I just use them.  Sometimes if I think it looks dodgy, I'll use a rojak ladder stopper. 

So it's not like I adhere to the rules, but we're not discussing that, we're discussing what the rules actually mean.

[rosskesava]

Yes, common sense screams at me that if I have wfp then why use ladders to keep a customer happy.

The question is that according the the H & S leaflet, it states that ladders are a valid choice when deciding on how to do a job and that is what was said on the course I went on 2 or 3 years ago.

I remember those discussion years ago with Phil Hanson but you must take into account that he was promoting Ionics wfp stuff.

I will persist with this as now I want a definitive answer. Can I choose to use a ladder when I could use wfp, or can't I? Also, are ladders legal, yes or no, or does it depend on what other options you have like just an extendible pole on which to put a mop and squeegee.

[dazmond]

i personally use WFP most of the time although i use a trad pole and ladders if the job requires it.i have a few domestic jobs today where i need the ladders to go up and over the flat roof garage in order to clean the backs.3 houses interlinked with each other so i hop over each fence while im round the back!(luckily i dont have many of these jobs left!).i take my hose and pole over as well.

i also have another job today that requires me to stand on a  flat roof to clean a landing window.as its a front only job i use ladders for the other 2 upper windows at the front as its easier.

most days i dont  even take the ladders off and when i do its usually only to hop over or unlock a side gate.i also have some large domestics where they have large flat roof extensions and the only way is to get up there is with a ladder.one property requires me to clean their big skylight windows on flat roof extension so my trad pole is the best way of cleaning em.

i have some old cottages on a canal bank that i clean and its very awkward to get my van down there.their windows are old wooden windows mostly so i access their properties from another customers garden that leads onto the canal bank.i just take my trad pole with vice versa and trad gear and bottle on a belt and it does the job safely from the ground.

its left up to the discretion of the window cleaner depending on the job!


regards


dazmond

[pristine window cl]

see, i said much of this re the guy who fell off a step ladder against a brick arch and hurt his shoulder . Alan       just because he had wfp makes no difference

[Tom White]

Yes, common sense screams at me that if I have wfp then why use ladders to keep a customer happy.

You know, one of the indicators of being self-employed is that we decide how best to do a job.  A few years back we had a new combi boiler and 10 radiators fitted.  Apart from letting the plumber know where we wanted the items placed - within the considerations and restraints he provided - we let him get on with the job as best as he saw fit.  I didn't tell him how to do his job.

I don't let my customers tell me how to do my job either.

[rosskesava]

You know, one of the indicators of being self-employed is that we decide how best to do a job.  A few years back we had a new combi boiler and 10 radiators fitted.  Apart from letting the plumber know where we wanted the items placed - within the considerations and restraints he provided - we let him get on with the job as best as he saw fit.  I didn't tell him how to do his job.

I don't let my customers tell me how to do my job either.

The whole reason I picked up on this topic was a customer wasn't happy with her windows being done wfp. She had no complaint what so ever with my window cleaning and admitted she'd never seen the frames so clean either but it's more that she prefers to see a man up a ladder cleaning the windows. It's what I'd call an unreasonable prejudice.

After me saying about accidents and all that she still decided to try and see if she could find a w/c to do the job trad style.

This got me wondering about whether according the WAHL's, I could have used a ladder legally. As I use wfp, the question for me is academic as I won't use a ladder for anything other than access.

Next Monday I have a job cleaning out a customers gutters and for that I will be using a ladder. I know don't know how the WAHL's apply to that. I will be using a stand off and someone will be footing the ladder but I have no alternative means to do the job so will I be breaking the law?

[Lee Burbidge]

Ladders are not banned 

[rosskesava]

Ladders are not banned 

I didn't know that. 

[Tom White]

Ladders are not banned 

I didn't know that. 

Who said they were banned?

Their use for routine window cleaning is severely restricted though; well, if you were to follow the regulation that is.

[rosskesava]

Who said they were banned?

Their use for routine window cleaning is severely restricted though; well, if you were to follow the regulation that is.

I'm not so sure about that ladders are severely restricted for window cleaning. I've started looking at things from the opposite angle and I cannot find one single example or incident of the H & S doing a window cleaner for using a ladder under 9m.

I found lots of instances of painters, builders, etc, getting in trouble for extended use of a ladder but not a single window cleaner.

[Tom White]

I found lots of instances of painters, builders, etc, getting in trouble for extended use of a ladder but not a single window cleaner.

Maybe we're not worth it?   

[rosskesava]

Maybe we're not worth it?   

Maybe that's it, after all, window cleaners are the bottom rung of the ladder.

[robertphil]

in my town is a big respectable painter firm and all their vans have triple ladders on them,looks like they use them a lot judging by the paint splashes on them.