[4S Cleaning]

I have heard a couple of times that using ladders for anything will be banned under health and saftey ...is this true ?

[Steve_c]

Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.

[4S Cleaning]

Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.

You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?

[G Griffin]

I have heard a couple of times that using ladders for anything will be banned under health and saftey ...is this true ?

No, it's not true......you've heard it more than a couple of times.

[G Griffin]

Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.

You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?

Yes.......but you'll find they are unwieldy and could scratch the glass......a bit like a wfp, really  .

I'm only joking. I don't know but someone will be able to help you out.

[4S Cleaning]

Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.

You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?

Yes.......but you'll find they are unwieldy and could scratch the glass......a bit like a wfp, really  . I'm only joking. I don't know but someone will be able to help you out.

I love a p take the same as the next person, but I always find it's better if you know the person ...thanks for your non help

[bobby p]

ladder firms will be still churning out ladders for many decades yet.   i predict a slow growth in the home market with exports increasing by  bulk freighter  to Asia

[Steve_c]

Mate its simple, ladders are and will not be banned. However they are and will be more restricted in the future.
If your a new start up, do a Health and safety course. Ladders on commercial (The Majority) are a no no, as they dont conform to the company's own health and safety policy and government guide lines.

[4S Cleaning]

Thankyou, I am a new start up , but have been fitting windows for 25 years so I am well used to ladders , I am buying 3 traditional runs & was a bit worried I would be unable too use ladders in the near future, thank you for your help.

[Cliff perkins]

Wanna fit some windows for me lol

[Nathanael Jones]

Ladder use is ALREADY restricted under 2005 WAHR. This is LAW, not a recommendation or regulation - LAW.

The Law states:
Avoidance of risks from work at height.


98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.

The bit in bold is the important bit - basically you shouldn't use ladders if there is another practicable method that will do the job from the ground. If you do, you are breaking the law. If you have any kind of insurance, look at the small print where it says that you are not covered when conducting activities outside the law....

Sky installers, painters etc etc have no practicable alternative method to carry out their job,.. window cleaners do, which is why this law is referred to so often on here.

[idealrob]

I think this thread has seen some very well thought out and correctly written answers,

idealrob

[G Griffin]

Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.

You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?

Yes.......but you'll find they are unwieldy and could scratch the glass......a bit like a wfp, really  . I'm only joking. I don't know but someone will be able to help you out.

I love a p take the same as the next person, but I always find it's better if you know the person ...thanks for your non help

I apologise for my "non help"; I was in a silly mood last night.
It shouldn't be too difficult to find out what you need to know. Asking on here could just get you opinions and not facts, as you found out  .
Good luck with the new business(es), anyway.

[rosskesava]

The bit in bold is the important bit - basically you shouldn't use ladders if there is another practicable method that will do the job from the ground. If you do, you are breaking the law. If you have any kind of insurance, look at the small print where it says that you are not covered when conducting activities outside the law....

Sky installers, painters etc etc have no practicable alternative method to carry out their job,.. window cleaners do, which is why this law is referred to so often on here.

I went on a course in 2009 or 2010 as I was then working on behalf of a company and the company requirements were I go on this course even though I wouldn't be using ladders.

I did ask the question about are ladders legal for window cleaning private houses.

A window cleaner can use a ladder quite legally if he decides that is the best method to do the job but he does has to have with him an alternative even if it's just an extendible pole. The idea is for every job he does he decides which way of working is best to get the results expected.

A window cleaner is breaking the law if he only has ladders for cleaning windows above standing height which is where I think the confusion comes in. He's supposed to have a minimum of two methods of cleaning windows at height available even if the second is just an extendible pole to put a mop and squeegee on.

The rules about ladder height and making sure it's stable and safe to use, etc, also apply but it is definitely legal to use a ladder.

Obviously the best and safest method is wfp but even then, if he decides a ladder is best in terms of expected results then it's still legal to use it.

Also, the term 'short duration' when applied to ladders is up to 20 minutes.

Workplace rules may be different but only in so far as they exceed statutory rules.

[DG Cleaning]

Even if they are banned, the law would be impossible to enforce so I wouldn't worry about. I'd still use ladders regardless of what the H&S gestapo says.

[rosskesava]

Even if they are banned, the law would be impossible to enforce so I wouldn't worry about. I'd still use ladders regardless of what the H&S gestapo says.

Contrary to gutter press miss quoting and hyping things up untill the truth is so far in the distance that it can no longer be seen, the H&S 'Gestapo' are more about managing risk sensibly than just banning things outright.

The WAHD originally came about not because deaths and injuries from falls at height were on the decrease but because they were on the increase.

There will always be work that requires short duration use of ladders so it makes much more sense to manage the risk and reduce the trend of increasing numbers of injuries and death than to ignore the problem.

[Tom White]

Also, the term 'short duration' when applied to ladders is up to 20 minutes.

You sure about this, or is this someone's interpretation of 'short duration'?

And the principles that underpin in the WAHD regulations are that if it is reasonably practical to do a job from the ground, then that's how it should be done.  

(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,

Common sense really.

Nathanial Jones pointed this out in his cut 'n' paste of the actual regs.

In my experience, most windows can be cleaned from the ground.  I have some flat roofs where ladders are needed to get access and there's probably many other examples where access equipment (such as ladders) is needed, but for most windows, WFP is reasonably practical.

[rosskesava]

Short duration is considered less than 20 minutes but should a job be expected to take 10 minutes but ends up taking 30 minutes, then that is also acceptable unless the same situation arises frequently.

I've found the notes I took at the time and this 2 day course was 100% H & S approved and the bloke was reading from the manual. The other problem is much of the WAHL are sometimes a bit contradictory and I was told to be wary of accepting just a few lines as positive proof that this or that is, or isn't, allowed.

98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—

That says 'employer'. The question I asked was about a self employed one one band cleaning windows of private houses although the regs do state by 'employer' it means the self employed, but regardless, using a ladder is legal. The term 'reasonably practicable' is also open to interpretation. Those regs also seem to be applying to the use of ladders in general but not specifically to short duration use.

A window cleaner is by dint of the term, expected to leave windows clean and if he decides that in order to do that he needs to use a ladder and clean the windows trad style, then it is legal.

It's about assessing the risks, minimising those risks, acting within the regs, and where possible and practicable, using a safer method. The regs do not state 'do not use ladders ever' otherwise as far as window cleaning is concerned, it would state clearly 'ladders are banned for window cleaning'.

I use wfp because apart from it being more profitable, I consider it safer but regardless of that, there is no law or rule stating that wfp must be used at all times and I defy anyone to find it.

[andrew hamshare]

Is it not like all other lws?  Ie if you don't fall off no one either cares nor needs to know.

[rosskesava]

Is it not like all other laws?  Ie if you don't fall off no one either cares nor needs to know.

That's the bottom line.