[SPE]

My set up is far from perfect although I run a 4040 hf5 it still only produces 30 ppm tds before di. This is because it has no booster pump and pressure is about 20 psi when waste fully open and water is supplied from a downstairs tap to a first floor landing via 1/2" hose. I live in a 1st floor flat and is the only possible way to set it up given the membranes size. Produces water pretty quick ( fills my 600ltr tank in 3 hours in the van) no room for booster and would be too noisy for my ground floor neighbours.
as a result I have to change the membrane about every 18 months plus my resin use is higher.

just had a look at this
http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=96

anybody have one ? are the twin booster pumps noisy ?
its benefit is smaller size (I could make a shelf for it directly above the inside of my front ground floor door ie; much closer to the tap. greater pressure, purer product, less resin use.

I know it would be slower than the 4040 but by how much ?
if anyone has one how long does it take you to make 600 ltrs ?

given its price compared to replacing a 4040 membrane at over £200 every 18 months and 25 - 50 ltrs of resin a year, it maybe more cost effective for me and a lot more compact in a small living space ?

[Window Washers]

why are you replacing a 4040 every 18 months ? have had the same one in now over 4 years and produce a shed load of water each week

[SPE]

because Ian, when I first install it , it produces at 18-20 ppm at best and within the year even with regular flushing and pre filter changes it creeps up to 30 and within 18 months its 50 +.
My household supply is about 260 ppm

Given its position and distance from the mains supply (due to its size and finding space for it) it never works at its optimum even without a booster pump. I'm led to believe that a 4040 should be removing 95% + of tds which it clearly is not (even from new)
I bought it for speed of production as my van is street parked and no static tank.
Its just 3 years down the line now and I am wondering if there is something more cost effective and compact for my situation. I know it may sacrifice some production speed but may reduce my running costs in the long term.
Simon

[SPE]

why are you replacing a 4040 every 18 months ? have had the same one in now over 4 years and produce a shed load of water each week

do you have a static tank and a booster pump for yours ?
what pressure does it run at and tds does it produce ?
compare your results to mine above and you will have the answer.

[Window Washers]

why are you replacing a 4040 every 18 months ? have had the same one in now over 4 years and produce a shed load of water each week

do you have a static tank and a booster pump for yours ?
what pressure does it run at and tds does it produce ?
compare your results to mine above and you will have the answer.

i run a booster tds out is 13 and tds in is 450+

How often do you flush it and do you have twin di's ?

[SPE]

why are you replacing a 4040 every 18 months ? have had the same one in now over 4 years and produce a shed load of water each week

do you have a static tank and a booster pump for yours ?
what pressure does it run at and tds does it produce ?
compare your results to mine above and you will have the answer.

i run a booster tds out is 13 and tds in is 450+

How often do you flush it and do you have twin di's ?

15 min flush each time then when I adjust the waste let the tds drop as low as it will go before filling into van, every few weeks may flush for an hour, only have one di after pump in the van.
I'm sure from asking on here in the past the main issue with its poor performance is the pressure drop caused by the distance it is from the mains supply and no booster pump.
I tried a recommended clarkes one from my local machine mart but in order to work it would have needed to be connected close to the tap supply in the communal hallway which was not possible plus its size and noise when in use.

[Spruce]

IMHO I think you need to go back and relook at your setup.

Why is your water pressure so low at the R/O? Is it because the pressure of your supply to the flat is low or is it the connection that you have made for the hose to your R/O. If you have used one of the saddle clamps as a tapoff, then maybe the hole into the pipe is too small and not allowing enough water flow through it.

If you restrict your flow then the pressure willl drop on the other side of the pipe. If you have one of those washing machine switch off taps, they can sometimes restrict flow when fully open.

I'm not sure about this downstairs tap. Is it outside for communal use or just for your use? If its outside then maybe the supply stop cock to that isn't fully open.

As an experiment, is it possible to couple the 4040 up to a supply in the kitchen, say to your washing machine supply and see if the 4040 unit performs better?

Sorry - I meant to add; In my opinion also, if you have enough room for this vyair R/O at the front door on a shelf, then you should also be able to mount your 4040 on a wooden board and secure that to the wall. I don't believe the width of the Vyair unit would be much smaller than the champ housing. You could then move your DI vessel into the van, which you would remove every night during winter to prevent it freezing.

[SPE]

thanks for the reply spruce
the tap is a proper plumbed in t piece in communal hallway
the ground floor space inside of my door is too narrow to fit the 4040 horizontally above it. Presently when being used about 5 meters of 1/2" hose connects to the ro which goes up to a shelf above the window of my first floor landing.
This is what creates the pressure drop to 20 psi.
Had it been at the ground floor level with a hose length of under 2 meters I would expect the pressure to maybe be atleast 40 psi unpumped.

di is in the van, have brought in and connected in doors during the winter, however the resin lasts longer if its in van after pump because a slower flow rate goes through it with use of a flow controller.

I can live with this set up, its just not ideal and I know I will not get optimum performance this way.
The vyair as a full pumped compact unit is going to cost me only a few quid more than replacing the hf5 membrane when I need to and I am certain I could get that to fit closer to the mains tap and on the ground floor, hence why I am asking about it, just looking at all my options really.

Simon

[Window Washers]

why are you replacing a 4040 every 18 months ? have had the same one in now over 4 years and produce a shed load of water each week

do you have a static tank and a booster pump for yours ?
what pressure does it run at and tds does it produce ?
compare your results to mine above and you will have the answer.

i run a booster tds out is 13 and tds in is 450+

How often do you flush it and do you have twin di's ?

15 min flush each time then when I adjust the waste let the tds drop as low as it will go before filling into van, every few weeks may flush for an hour, only have one di after pump in the van.
I'm sure from asking on here in the past the main issue with its poor performance is the pressure drop caused by the distance it is from the mains supply and no booster pump.
I tried a recommended clarkes one from my local machine mart but in order to work it would have needed to be connected close to the tap supply in the communal hallway which was not possible plus its size and noise when in use.

have you tried connecting it near your ro ? I have run mine about 40ft foot away from my tap in one on my units and worked ok.

[SPE]

morning ian
spruce has just given me the idea that I could atleast test it by putting in the kitchen (not permanently too small a space) and could flush it this way with greater pressure which may prolong its life and bring down the tds a bit.

not sure what you mean when you say you've run yours 40 ft away ?
where was the pump ? at the water source or at the ro ? and on the same level I presume ?
reason being I tried a clarkes pump and it made no difference when connected before the pre filters and ro on the first floor. Manufacturers guidlines were for the pump to be at same level and as close to water source as possible which is why it never worked for me.

[SPE]

morning ian
spruce has just given me the idea that I could atleast test it by putting in the kitchen (not permanently too small a space) and could flush it this way with greater pressure which may prolong its life and bring down the tds a bit.

not sure what you mean when you say you've run yours 40 ft away ?
where was the pump ? at the water source or at the ro ? and on the same level I presume ?
reason being I tried a clarkes pump and it made no difference when connected before the pre filters and ro on the first floor. Manufacturers guidlines were for the pump to be at same level and as close to water source as possible which is why it never worked for me.

tried it straight from my kitchen tap and shortest hose lengths possible, no difference whatsover !  with waste fully open before the pre filters 10 psi !
am amazed its that low to be honest but guess I'm lucky to be getting a steady 30 ppm from it. With no possible space available for an adequate booster pump guess I'm stuck with things as they are for now.
Thanks for helpful advice though.

Would still be interested in hearing from anyone who has the vyair ro linked in my original post and what their fill times are for a 600 ltr tank though ?

thanks
Simon

[Window Washers]

morning ian
spruce has just given me the idea that I could atleast test it by putting in the kitchen (not permanently too small a space) and could flush it this way with greater pressure which may prolong its life and bring down the tds a bit.

not sure what you mean when you say you've run yours 40 ft away ?
where was the pump ? at the water source or at the ro ? and on the same level I presume ?
reason being I tried a clarkes pump and it made no difference when connected before the pre filters and ro on the first floor. Manufacturers guidlines were for the pump to be at same level and as close to water source as possible which is why it never worked for me.

what clarke pump was it, do you have a link ?

[gto]

that Vyair will give you around 50l per hour, with a 2-1 waste to good output.

its a good RO for the money

[Spruce]

I just can't get my head around this low pressure story.

When were the prefilters replaced?

[Ian Lancaster]

Hi SPE

I'm wondering about your words: "waste fully open"  unless you've got some sort of built in restrictor, when you are producing, the waste tap should be closed, with the ratio of waste to pure controlled by the setting of the other (bypass) valve.

On my 40-40 the waste comes from the membrane, then the waste pipe splits with a valve in each branch.  After the valves the pipe rejoins to form a single pipe.  Opening one of the valves allows most of the water to go to waste.  Closing that valve stops this and the only way for the waste to go is via the other valve which you can adjust to increase/decrease the waste/product ratio.

You're not running with an open valve straight to waste are you?  That would register as low pressure, as there's no resistance in the system plus you would get poor production rate and high TDS

Also I presume your tap is on the same supply as in your flat, so the pressure should be the same - the bore of your hose pipe is the same as the bore of the mains water pipe to your flat.  You can only measure water pressure against a closed end - if water is flowing, the pressure registered will be much lower than the actual pressure at which the water is supplied.

[Topclean]

Ian do you have a picture of your set up please
I am having similar problems with my membranes
Only lasting  eight months or so! We do produce about
7000 ltrs a week tho!! This is pumped, but your waste
Pipes sounds different to mine.

Sorry for hijacking the thread!

Thanks Ray

[Spruce]

Hi SPE

I'm wondering about your words: "waste fully open"  unless you've got some sort of built in restrictor, when you are producing, the waste tap should be closed, with the ratio of waste to pure controlled by the setting of the other (bypass) valve.

On my 40-40 the waste comes from the membrane, then the waste pipe splits with a valve in each branch.  After the valves the pipe rejoins to form a single pipe.  Opening one of the valves allows most of the water to go to waste.  Closing that valve stops this and the only way for the waste to go is via the other valve which you can adjust to increase/decrease the waste/product ratio.

You're not running with an open valve straight to waste are you?  That would register as low pressure, as there's no resistance in the system plus you would get poor production rate and high TDS

Also I presume your tap is on the same supply as in your flat, so the pressure should be the same - the bore of your hose pipe is the same as the bore of the mains water pipe to your flat.  You can only measure water pressure against a closed end - if water is flowing, the pressure registered will be much lower than the actual pressure at which the water is supplied.

Hi Ian,

He is producing water quickly so the waste can't be open. (I have the figure of 600l in 3 hours in my head but can't find anything mentioned like that in the thread)

Something doesn't make sense. I would find a friend and try it at his house and see if it makes a difference. I understand the Pure Freedom waste valve is a 1/2" gate valve with a 1mm hole drilled in the gate to give the 50/50 waste/pure.

SPE - please can you tell us what the ratio of pure to waste is. Thanks.

There was a windie on here from Hartlepool a couple of years back that had very low flow and water pressure and had a problem with his 4040 because of it. Haven't heard from him of late. Hartlepool has very hard water and many homes have pipes virtually blocked with lime scale. I wonder if this is a problem he is experiencing.

[Spruce]

found it
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=107125.20

Now Simon,
this is interesting as the tap psi is different now to a year and a half ago. Your problem raised in this thread ............

"alright, I've read all this with interest, have an hf5 from gaps too
changed my pre filters recently and my product tds has risen from 15 to 30 also getting less pressure
bought my prefilters from gardeners threw the old ones away without a thought so could'nt put them back in. Question: is there much difference in performance between different brands of pre filters ? I have 2 10" housings. I  think I have a 5 micron pre sediment and a carbon coconut filter in that order, is that correct ?

tap supply 270 ppm
previous tds before filter change 15 and 60 psi with waste set to 50/50

after changing filters tds of 30, psi of 50

I'm puzzled   whats happened

ps. also when I have drain valve fully open I still get some pure being produced, is this normal ?
can I fit a tap inline on the pure supply and shut it off when flushing ie; drainage tap fully open , will this help flush the membrane more effectively or am I likely to damage it ?

thanks in advance of any advice  
Simon"

[SPE]

Hi SPE

I'm wondering about your words: "waste fully open"  unless you've got some sort of built in restrictor, when you are producing, the waste tap should be closed, with the ratio of waste to pure controlled by the setting of the other (bypass) valve.

On my 40-40 the waste comes from the membrane, then the waste pipe splits with a valve in each branch.  After the valves the pipe rejoins to form a single pipe.  Opening one of the valves allows most of the water to go to waste.  Closing that valve stops this and the only way for the waste to go is via the other valve which you can adjust to increase/decrease the waste/product ratio.

You're not running with an open valve straight to waste are you?  That would register as low pressure, as there's no resistance in the system plus you would get poor production rate and high TDS

Also I presume your tap is on the same supply as in your flat, so the pressure should be the same - the bore of your hose pipe is the same as the bore of the mains water pipe to your flat.  You can only measure water pressure against a closed end - if water is flowing, the pressure registered will be much lower than the actual pressure at which the water is supplied.

Hi Ian

my 4040 system as follows
has a pure outlet, goes out of my flat window and connected to tank in van
the waste outlet has an inline tap on 1/2" hose maybe 3 ft from the ro and thats it.

when I flush, the tap is fully open thus allowing free flow of all the water from the membrane ( a very small trickle comes out the pure outlet ) to go to waste which is connected to a drain.

When I start producing pure water I partially close the inline tap on the waste hose.
The pure outlet hose has a jg fitted inline tds meter. I tweak the tap until the tds meter is showing the lowest ppm of pure ( this is roughly half way closed and I marked the optimum position with tipex ) I'm unsure of the exact waste/pure ratio but it appears that it produces maybe twice the waste as pure.

I always thought that this was the way the waste was set up , but you appear to to it differently, am I wrong ?

Simon

[SPE]

found it
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=107125.20

Now Simon,
this is interesting as the tap psi is different now to a year and a half ago. Your problem raised in this thread ............

"alright, I've read all this with interest, have an hf5 from gaps too
changed my pre filters recently and my product tds has risen from 15 to 30 also getting less pressure
bought my prefilters from gardeners threw the old ones away without a thought so could'nt put them back in. Question: is there much difference in performance between different brands of pre filters ? I have 2 10" housings. I  think I have a 5 micron pre sediment and a carbon coconut filter in that order, is that correct ?

tap supply 270 ppm
previous tds before filter change 15 and 60 psi with waste set to 50/50

after changing filters tds of 30, psi of 50

I'm puzzled   whats happened

ps. also when I have drain valve fully open I still get some pure being produced, is this normal ?
can I fit a tap inline on the pure supply and shut it off when flushing ie; drainage tap fully open , will this help flush the membrane more effectively or am I likely to damage it ?

thanks in advance of any advice  
Simon"

think my problem back then with the filter change was that I did'nt flush them for a while before connecting to ro, just swapped them and carried on, read on here since that its not good to do this , flush them through for a while first ?

my pressure guage and pre filters were then downstairs nearer to the supply whilst the ro was above about 5 meters away on a sub first floor landing, the psi reading I gave was when it was producing pure. I have since moved the guage closer to the ro which is why the psi appears lower now and I put that down to the fact that its running through a lot of 1/2" hose.

I've spent today doing a lot of faffing about with the ro, its not up and running again yet but have repositioned where it is in my flat.
Thankyou for all the help, I think it best that when I've got it set up again I take some photos and post them here and take current readings, defo easier than explaining !
cheers
 
Simon