Interested In Advertising? | Contact Us Here
Warning!

 

Welcome to Clean It Up; the UK`s largest cleaning forum with over 34,000 members

 

Please login or register to post and reply to topics.      

 

Forgot your password? Click here

Poll

What will you do if veolia water doesn't change their stance on WFP

Go back to ladders
8.5%
5 (8.5%)
Source water from somewhere else
3.4%
2 (3.4%)
Carry on under the rader
28.8%
17 (28.8%)
Not a veolia customer just looking at poll.
59.3%
35 (59.3%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Veolia water customers.
« on: March 16, 2012, 03:06:24 pm »
If veolia waters ban on their domestic customers waking pure water doesn't change, what will you do?

steve rix

  • Posts: 816
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2012, 03:25:00 pm »
Hi Lee, any chance of a few more details? regards Steve

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2012, 03:31:54 pm »
Read through these

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=149154.0

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=149235.0


Basically veolia are the only water company to actually impose a ban on making deionised water if you are one of their domestic customers.


supernova77

  • Posts: 3547
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2012, 05:28:47 pm »
I'm not a Veolia customer.. But if I was I would just change to a business tariff.

Andy

johnwillan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 06:26:28 pm »
It wouldn't make any difference. The current position is we cannot use their water to clean domestic windows using WFP, you can clean commercial but not domestic.

They feel it is perfectly acceptable to clean using traditional tools on poles if we decide not to use ladders.

Quite an interesting situation, not been in this position before, but enjoying the challenge.

In answer to the question I would:
A: Source water outside the area (with a clear trail as proof)
B: Use ladders


dd

  • Posts: 2623
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2012, 06:31:51 pm »
As far as I am aware business tariff is same as domestic. I am under Veolia water and have static RO set-up in garage. I informed them about 4 years ago of this so i could claim a  sewerage rebate for water not returned to drain, although I claim the rebate from Anglian Water who are responsible for sewerage.

Until they personally inform me otherwise I plan to continue using my RO. I am on  meter so I already pay for all the water I use.

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2012, 06:37:47 pm »
On the veolia website under restrictions on page 11 where it says we cannot use WFP, it has this under the exceptions

A statutory exception exists in The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 for the cleaning of domestic walls or windows in respect of health or safety. This includes:
a) removing or minimising any risk to human or animal health or safety; and
b) preventing or controlling the spread of causative agents of disease



So can we use this as a way of carrying on using WFP with regards to health and safety?


That it the exception that ionics used to when talking to the water companies in 2006 and they agreeded.
K
It should be noted, however, that this distinction is now at the water-companies' discretion. Before the 2010 order, water companies did not have the power to restrict businesses during hose-pipe bans no matter what type of work they performed. Now the situation is different. The 2010 order gives water companies the power to restrict the USE of water drawn from their supply, not the user.

In theory this means that water companies could, if they chose to, restrict window cleaning of domestic houses even by window cleaning businesses, though they would not be able to restrict window cleaning on commercial buildings.This could lead to a ridiculous situation whereby a domestic window cleaner would be restricted, but a commercial window cleaner would not.

It's encouraging that so far, it appears that water companies are not restricting window cleaning businesses at all in the new hose-pipe bans for 2012, but it is important to note that they have the power to do so.

Thankfully, there is an even more powerful argument in favour of the window cleaner.

A Special Dispensation for Health & Safety
The issue of window cleaning with waterfed poles during a drought first came to light in 2006 when water shortages were experienced throughout much of Southern England. In accordance with legal procedure, the water companies involved held public hearings to consider what impact any restrictions would have for the public and businesses. Craig Mawlam, chairman of Ionic Systems and founder of the British Window Cleaning Academy spoke in behalf of the window cleaning industry.

Craig argued that window cleaners should not be expected to assume the life-threatening risks associated with work at height simply to save a relatively small amount of water, and should be granted a dispensation on the grounds of Health & Safety. The fact that other dispensations existed, for example to allow ponds and fountains to be filled to protect fish and other animals served to illustrate that the preservation of life is obviously more important than a relatively small water saving. Of course, human life is just as (if not more) worthy of protection as that of animals.

This argument was accepted by both water companies and the then Secretary of State who later approved the water companies' plans for managing the drought that year.

But more importantly, it appears that this consideration was written into law in the 2010 order.

Section 12(2) of The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 specifically states:


"Cleaning walls, or windows, of domestic premises using a hosepipe
12.—
(1) The category of use in section 76(2)(i) of the Act applies only to the cleaning of the external walls or windows of domestic premises.
(2) Using a hosepipe to clean the walls or windows of domestic premises for health or safety reasons is not to be treated as falling within the category of use in that section."

The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010; Sec 12(2)
 
As was argued by Craig Mawlam, window cleaners who use waterfed poles do so for health & safety reasons. The alternative to using waterfed poles would be to work at height (using either ladders, scaffold towers or hydraulic platforms etc). But this would cause a problem, as the Work at Height Regulations 2005 require that work at height be avoided if there is a reasonably practical alternative.

So, section 12(2) of the new order appears to indicate that hosepipe ban restrictions won't apply in cases where health and safety would be adversely affected.

This provision should allow window cleaners to continue to use the safest method available to them - waterfed poles - during a hose-pipe ban.

As these new laws are so new, the exact legal interpretation has yet to be established, but it would certainly seem that window cleaners using waterfed poles have a very strong case.


Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2012, 06:42:02 pm »
Could you change the colour from yellow please Lee.

H S and Son

Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2012, 06:46:20 pm »
Could you change the colour from yellow please Lee.


It should be noted, however, that this distinction is now at the water-companies' discretion. Before the 2010 order, water companies did not have the power to restrict businesses during hose-pipe bans no matter what type of work they performed. Now the situation is different. The 2010 order gives water companies the power to restrict the USE of water drawn from their supply, not the user.

In theory this means that water companies could, if they chose to, restrict window cleaning of domestic houses even by window cleaning businesses, though they would not be able to restrict window cleaning on commercial buildings.This could lead to a ridiculous situation whereby a domestic window cleaner would be restricted, but a commercial window cleaner would not.

It's encouraging that so far, it appears that water companies are not restricting window cleaning businesses at all in the new hose-pipe bans for 2012, but it is important to note that they have the power to do so.

Thankfully, there is an even more powerful argument in favour of the window cleaner.

A Special Dispensation for Health & Safety
The issue of window cleaning with waterfed poles during a drought first came to light in 2006 when water shortages were experienced throughout much of Southern England. In accordance with legal procedure, the water companies involved held public hearings to consider what impact any restrictions would have for the public and businesses. Craig Mawlam, chairman of Ionic Systems and founder of the British Window Cleaning Academy spoke in behalf of the window cleaning industry.

Craig argued that window cleaners should not be expected to assume the life-threatening risks associated with work at height simply to save a relatively small amount of water, and should be granted a dispensation on the grounds of Health & Safety. The fact that other dispensations existed, for example to allow ponds and fountains to be filled to protect fish and other animals served to illustrate that the preservation of life is obviously more important than a relatively small water saving. Of course, human life is just as (if not more) worthy of protection as that of animals.

This argument was accepted by both water companies and the then Secretary of State who later approved the water companies' plans for managing the drought that year.

But more importantly, it appears that this consideration was written into law in the 2010 order.

Section 12(2) of The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 specifically states:


"Cleaning walls, or windows, of domestic premises using a hosepipe
12.—
(1) The category of use in section 76(2)(i) of the Act applies only to the cleaning of the external walls or windows of domestic premises.
(2) Using a hosepipe to clean the walls or windows of domestic premises for health or safety reasons is not to be treated as falling within the category of use in that section."

The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010; Sec 12(2)
 
As was argued by Craig Mawlam, window cleaners who use waterfed poles do so for health & safety reasons. The alternative to using waterfed poles would be to work at height (using either ladders, scaffold towers or hydraulic platforms etc). But this would cause a problem, as the Work at Height Regulations 2005 require that work at height be avoided if there is a reasonably practical alternative.

So, section 12(2) of the new order appears to indicate that hosepipe ban restrictions won't apply in cases where health and safety would be adversely affected.

This provision should allow window cleaners to continue to use the safest method available to them - waterfed poles - during a hose-pipe ban.

As these new laws are so new, the exact legal interpretation has yet to be established, but it would certainly seem that window cleaners using waterfed poles have a very strong case.

bad trippy

  • Posts: 3268
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 06:58:59 pm »
simple thing to do is this... All you say is that you have purchased the water from a source outside their area simples  :)
www.clearviewbristol.co.uk
Add me on Facebook clear view window cleaning

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 07:09:20 pm »
Could you change the colour from yellow please Lee.

How's that   ;D

mike roberts

Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 07:45:13 pm »
From this post I will not make friends but frankly dont give a ~~~~.

Reading these posts its obvious that 'Window cleaners' are missing Veolia's point.  Its no good just putting a set of 'blinkers on' and ignoring it. Surely this subject should be at the top of all the posts not which ficking pump works best!

Their point is ...windows dont need to be cleaned FULL STOP so HS gets kicked into touch. They are taking the same approach  with pressure washing, WE CANT PRESSURE WASH DOMESTICS FULL STOP- in their eyes it doesnt need to be done - However this will obviously have a massive impact on companies providing these services - US.

What we all need to do is get off our arses complain to everyone Veolia, local papers local MPs make everyone aware of what they are intending to do. What gives them the right to shut companies down, where as other water companies ie Anglian are allowing us to continue.


Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 07:49:25 pm »
The trouble is mike, it doesn't see
 To have affected many on here, so because the majority can carry on they don't need to do anything, Wait until the other companies impose the same ban and then see what topic will be at the top!

I don't agree with it but that's the way it is. I'm in the same boat as you, but it doesn't look like we are getting much help.

Have you spoken to veolia today?

johnwillan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 08:53:04 pm »
Great post Matt, very useful and would be worth putting to the test, for anyone brave enough.

In this case Mike's view appears to be correct, Veolia will take action against anyone using a hosepipe on domestic premises, they are not interested how many livelihoods it may affect.

The head of Veolia legal suggested using trad tools on poles if ladders cannot be used, to which I have replied.

Even OFWAT have a statement which is in line with Thames, Anglian & Southern, this will be my next call on Monday to see if they have the power to change Veolia's mind.










keyser soze

  • Posts: 1694
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 10:05:47 pm »
windows will have to go dirty if not done  traditional. they dont care about window cleaners like they didnt care about the car industry.  coal miners, public sector workers. hospital workers . we aren't that important. health and safety is a poor arguement. if wfp is gonna be restricted then the windows will go dirty or trad. i wouldn't bank on the water boards letting you carry on if we have a hot summer. prepare for a change

bad trippy

  • Posts: 3268
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 10:14:27 pm »
Personally i dont give two S  hits about any water restrictions
It wont stop me earning 1pence than i did last december
They cant prove where my water came from.
I pay my water rates, year on year, if they want to p their profits up, thats up to them.
They should have invested, not forced water restrictions, i have no sympathy for them.
In short F 'em
www.clearviewbristol.co.uk
Add me on Facebook clear view window cleaning

Blast Away

Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 10:30:47 pm »
Personally i dont give two S  hits about any water restrictions
It wont stop me earning 1pence than i did last december
They cant prove where my water came from.
I pay my water rates, year on year, if they want to p their profits up, thats up to them.
They should have invested, not forced water restrictions, i have no sympathy for them.
In short F 'em

Word!

The world is gonna end before Christmas anyway so I'll live for today.

mike roberts

Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 11:10:09 pm »
The trouble is mike, it doesn't see
 To have affected many on here, so because the majority can carry on they don't need to do anything, Wait until the other companies impose the same ban and then see what topic will be at the top!

I don't agree with it but that's the way it is. I'm in the same boat as you, but it doesn't look like we are getting much help.

Have you spoken to veolia today?

Lee, I do realise it only seems to be a small minority affected and others just cant seem to grasp the true reality. Really feel for you as from your previous posts you have ploughed alot recently into your company, 100% respect, no fault of your own results may be ltd due to unfortunate timing.

The majority of our work is Pressure washing, we also cover Anglian 'area' which is a god send at present.. unless they adopt Veolia's ideas. We are introducing recycling and will push it as far as possible in all 'directions' customers media etc.
I have spoken to V again today they are currently looking at the situation with their legal team, in the mean time also sending in an appeal thro their hydrant division.

Whatever the results they wont stop us working - unless the drought escalates. As for this forum I now realise it is a huge waste of time, as I have been told numerous times by a few guys
Best Mike

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2012, 08:04:56 am »
Cheers mike, let us know what the response from veolia is, even if they don't change their mind.

andyM

  • Posts: 6100
Re: Veolia water customers.
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2012, 08:15:44 am »
The trouble is mike, it doesn't see
 To have affected many on here, so because the majority can carry on they don't need to do anything, Wait until the other companies impose the same ban and then see what topic will be at the top!

I don't agree with it but that's the way it is. I'm in the same boat as you, but it doesn't look like we are getting much help.

Have you spoken to veolia today?

Have you considered getting together and contacting your local MP?
Also the local media might be interested in this story which could put the water company in a negative light as they are not acknowleging Health & Safety implications.
Don't just talk about it......DO SOMETHING!
One of the Plebs