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Simon Gerrard

  • Posts: 4405
Re: Organisation
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2011, 09:40:37 am »
Derek,

Forget members, members are the problem, not the solution.
Simon

Re: Organisation
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2011, 10:18:42 am »
The problem with the existing organisations and others that never got off the ground was that they need the continued support of its members to finance it and keep it alive.
What we need is a BIG idea ;)

What it needs is an initial large lump sum from a manufacturer such as Axminster/Wilton/Prochem etc, someboby who might have a vested interest in the industry. This would give the financial backup to keep it going until member numbers build up so becoming self financing.
Thinking that 50 or 100 carpet cleaners can get something up and running with enough momentum to keep it going 24 months is pie in the sky.

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: Organisation
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2011, 10:36:54 am »
Agreed - but we already have an organisation in place that has huge sums of money going through it's bank account every year.

Lets not be naive here - we are not talking about a tv advert in the middle of coronation street at peak time. There are scores of tv channels and initially an ad could be shown on discovery where people watch diy and gardening shows.

Slowly build momentum, it would have to be a sustained campaign to build awareness.

Now current NCCA members might argue that why should the NCCA use money gained from existing members that could be of benefit to non-members. But lets face it, if you started seeing NCCA ads regularly, even on smaller sky and cable channels, wouldn't you start giving thought to joining an organisation that had your interests at heart. More members = more revenue = more ads.

There is no bloody point in them paying for advertising in cleaning magazines, it's the public that need educating not the cleaners. We already know about the NCCA and still don't want to join. Stop fannying about with facebook pages and twitter accounts.

I will tell you one thing for certain though, if things don't change radically at the NCCA then it ha a short life span. Who will take up the mantle when Paul, Pav and Keith hang up their wands ?

The USA carpet cleaning industry was transformed when Sears ran a massive tv ad campaign years ago. Everyone benefited.

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Organisation
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2011, 11:39:15 am »
Hi Guys

If the carpet manufacturing industry could be persuaded to run a campaign on the benefits of carpet inc regular cleaning, then it may work, otherwise the costs are just too high.

The NCCA are looking for new leadership  but it will take a very strong person to put in all that effort and get a load of moaning in return.

If one builds a busy CC bisiness it just doesn't leave time to promote the industry which is one of the reasons for the NCCA's lack of impact.

Cheers

Doug

robert meldrum

  • Posts: 1984
Re: Organisation
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2011, 11:43:49 am »
Unfortunately while individuals talk about what they ( individually ) would like in an association companies like Rug Doc and Vax are making steady inroads promoting their newer machines as COMMERCIAL machines and selling them to both domestic and commercial sectors.

If you consider what you REALLY want from an organisation it might already exist.

Because hundreds can chat / argue / debate on forums they already feel part of SOMETHING and some just want to take this a step further by having social gatherings. Again this has already been done with great success but seems to have been hijacked and become a bit cliquish which reduces the appeal to the majority.

If you REALLY want a credible and professional association which will attract discounts from insurance companies, etc and gain recognition and respect from the general public  you must have a credible format to identify individual operators status in the industry.

Other industries have NOVICE / INTERMEDIATE / JOURNEYMAN / CRAFTSMAN status gained through training and examination and there's no reason why C/C'ing can't have the same.

The oldest and best known organisation in the UK is BICCS and they are already offering carpet cleaning along with many other courses.

If you really want to raise the profile of your industry and eliminate the cowboys you could do worse than talk to BICCS about setting up a training model and by doing it now you will have control over what it amounts to, otherwise - as I predicted three years ago - you will have to comply with whatever the government commission comes up with in the near future.

I've had the mis fortune of working in two industries where COMPLIANCE with GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS  came in and everything thereafter had to COMPLY otherwise you would be struck of the register or given a low grading which was freely available to the general public.

If you get together with an existing training provider and draft your proposals you will at least be able to significantly influence the training requirements of the industry rather than have a program put together by someone who has no practical knowledge of the industry and has simply researched the industry and assembled training packages from the reult of their research.

You could talk all day about what would be ideal or good or essential but nothing will happen without action.

WITHIN THE C/C INDUSTRY TODAY THERE'S A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF VERY CAPABLE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE JOINTLY CAPABLE OF ASSEMBLING A CREDIBLE TRAINING PROGRAMME AND PRESENTING IT TO A CERTIFYING BOARD. ( CITY AND GUILDS ) FOR APPROVAL THEN ARRANGING FOR IT TO BE DELIVERED NATIONWIDE THROUGH BICCS VIA COLLEGES.

 


  
 

Simon Gerrard

  • Posts: 4405
Re: Organisation
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2011, 12:09:38 pm »
With respect, you're all thinking from inside the box. The solution to this problem doesn't lie within the existing dynamics of the industry, nor does it lie within the existing structures of all of the models that have been tried before, including the NCCA, if it did we would have found it by now. As with all seemingly complex problems, there is a perfectly logical solution staring you in the face, you just have to look outside of the box.

Simon

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: Organisation
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2011, 12:33:28 pm »
Ive been involved with National Companies that promote themselves on TV Press and Leaflets

I can tell you leads on The Ground to the individual are thin on the Ground as they are doing blanket National Coverage.

What it did do was give brand awareness.

Another Company had a system where you paid for the Leads you were given at £25 each as you had paid for the lead it was designed to  to make you push harder to close.

This was the same in all companies, Leads do not fall out of trees

You would be better off spending the money you would be expected to contribute on your own company

I n retail I was  involved in Local Buying Groups , The Group Committee decided we would advertise on local radio I had no choice I had to Contribute , the adverts were run on local radio 50 miles away . They said it was possible to pick up the station so I had to contribute

Google advertising system is clever I did not mention the name of one of the Companies and their advert pops up at bottom of Forum


derek west

Re: Organisation
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2011, 01:06:46 pm »
With respect, you're all thinking from inside the box. The solution to this problem doesn't lie within the existing dynamics of the industry, nor does it lie within the existing structures of all of the models that have been tried before, including the NCCA, if it did we would have found it by now. As with all seemingly complex problems, there is a perfectly logical solution staring you in the face, you just have to look outside of the box.

Simon

i'm guessing you know whats outside the box, come on simon, tell us so we can pick holes in it like we always do ;D

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: Organisation
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2011, 01:25:26 pm »
There is already plenty of training available and while I don't disagree with your sentiments Robert, more training and qualifications are irrelevant if there is not an increase in carpets to clean.

The bottom line is customer awareness - but you're right, while we all moan on here, vax and rug doctor do something about it. That's why the majority of customer awareness about carpet cleaning revolves around those products, equally with vanish and the like.

Which just goes to show that it works.

It's not enough for us all to bitch on here about why they should use us and not those products - they don't know about us, they do know about them - why ? because of brand awareness - tv ads, magazine ads.

Getting carpet manufacturers involved is pointless. Customers don't buy from manufacturers they buy from retailers, who have even less inclination to inform clients about doing something regularly that will ultimately delay them from buying another new carpet.

Advertising works - even the things we buy are as a result of awareness. The only reason we don't do it ourselves, as individual companies, is the cost - which is why we are limited to  leaflets, websites, social media etc;

Why is it that only 10% - 15% (if figures are to be believed) of households in the UK have their carpets cleaned ? It's because it's not in their faces from various media outlets on a regular basis.

To keep on about cost is just negative, it doesn't have to cost millions or hundreds of thousands - thousands yes.

But then look at how many thousands of pounds we invest in equipment and then hope that the phone rings to justify those costs.

derek west

Re: Organisation
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2011, 01:53:11 pm »
50 people, 2% share in the company, £1000 up front

£20k on web design and seo
£5k on a professional witty and funny advert
£25k on a marketting company to market that advert. £5k on a xmas p up.  ;D joke.
£5k on a corporate video

all ball park figures would need costing before i put any money in.

then a  membership fee for new members (and they'll come) which will fund the on going

all decisions a majority of the 50 shareholders.

money is what its about and in numbers, money isn't an issue.

oh and just incase you think its a money making scheme, all profits to be ploughed into the company for at least 3 years.

thats my way of thinking, shame its no one elses though. ;D

Paul Evans

  • Posts: 408
Re: Organisation
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2011, 01:59:12 pm »
50 people, 2% share in the company, £1000 up front

£20k on web design and seo
£5k on a professional witty and funny advert
£25k on a marketting company to market that advert. £5k on a xmas p up.  ;D joke.
£5k on a corporate video

all ball park figures would need costing before i put any money in.

then a  membership fee for new members (and they'll come) which will fund the on going

all decisions a majority of the 50 shareholders.

money is what its about and in numbers, money isn't an issue.

oh and just incase you think its a money making scheme, all profits to be ploughed into the company for at least 3 years.

thats my way of thinking, shame its no one elses though. ;D

Derek i can see where your coming from but the figures seem a bit pie in the sky,
£5000 for the p**s up  ;D no where near enough  ;D

Paul

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: Organisation
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2011, 02:06:29 pm »
50 people, 2% share in the company, £1000 up front

£20k on web design and seo
£5k on a professional witty and funny advert
£25k on a marketting company to market that advert. £5k on a xmas p up.  ;D joke.
£5k on a corporate video

all ball park figures would need costing before i put any money in.

then a  membership fee for new members (and they'll come) which will fund the on going

all decisions a majority of the 50 shareholders.

money is what its about and in numbers, money isn't an issue.

oh and just incase you think its a money making scheme, all profits to be ploughed into the company for at least 3 years.

thats my way of thinking, shame its no one elses though. ;D

I agree with your thinking Derek, although I would only budget £10k for the website (for starters) as the media costs are far more important and will eat up more of the money.

I think all of the profits should be re-invested indefinitely. £1000 is cheap if it got you a portion of the benefits created by more awareness. How much do people spend on leaflets, pro-rata, with only a 1% chance of a return. Most of the marketing we do is hit and miss anyway, so why not attempt it on a larger scale.

Paul Evans

  • Posts: 408
Re: Organisation
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2011, 02:16:34 pm »
How about one main body to run things. ( For national exposure )

Then divided into areas

North west
North east
South West
South East
Scotland
Wales
Midlands

All operating there own marketing and Training within there budget.Local to there members.

Just a  thought.

Paul

derek west

Re: Organisation
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2011, 02:31:56 pm »
just ball park steve, aint got a clue how much it costs, but it costs nothing to find out, but without 50 people we're screwed anyhoo.

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: Organisation
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2011, 02:34:17 pm »
This isn't about areas or regions. It's about the whole carpet cleaning fraternity.

A national advertising campaign would benefit everyone - people you don't know, people you don't like, your nearest competitor - everyone.

It's not about how much return you would get on an investment - it's about raising the profile of the profession you work in.

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: Organisation
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2011, 02:35:22 pm »
................... which is why it should be the NCCA's number one priority.

Paul Evans

  • Posts: 408
Re: Organisation
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2011, 02:47:05 pm »
This isn't about areas or regions. It's about the whole carpet cleaning fraternity.

A national advertising campaign would benefit everyone - people you don't know, people you don't like, your nearest competitor - everyone.

It's not about how much return you would get on an investment - it's about raising the profile of the profession you work in.


And there goes the whole pile of cards.
If you had 25 members in London for a local tv run
And 25 members in the north east for a local tv run

What would be the price differance.

This is why it needs to be a local campaign.

But with national recognition.

I for 1 would not pay london prices when living in Manchester.

And believe me there will be a massive differance
Advertising on London television
To granada region.

So the reasonable conclusion is to have regional budgets on income generated.

But each region contrubute to the national awareness

Simples  Paul

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: Organisation
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2011, 02:58:13 pm »
Paul you're confusing a pie in the sky idea that me and Derek were remarking on and what the NCCA should be doing right now.

The NCCA should represent all carpet cleaners nationally, irrespective of their regions, which is why a national campaign is the only sensible option.


Paul Evans

  • Posts: 408
Re: Organisation
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2011, 03:12:44 pm »
Agreed Steve

But things cant go national overnight. I stick to my thoughts that a great idea would be a regional group.
But pays into a national campaign.( For national awarness)
At the moment NCCA only run there courses at Leicester.
Wouldnt that be better if they had regional courses.

I cant see how with limited cash we could bring national awareness at any pace.
This needs to be done by gradual progression area by area.

All pulling together with the main aim of national awareness.

Paul

derek west

Re: Organisation
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2011, 03:16:30 pm »
paul
all though i understand that you don't want to be funding london prices your forgetting an important issue, there are far more cleaners in london than there are in manchester, and so it all balances out.

its about creating an interesting stir and then marketting that stir nationally to cause awareness.