[the bfg]

I think these people who keep saying hot water still freezes on glass needs to come out with me for a day as I'm sure you will change your minds.

I worked until 4,10pm yesterday using hot and it never and has never frozen on the glass.


but to be honest I have never worked in temps like what their experiencing up in scotland  but have worked in -5 with no problems.

[DaveG]

Worked yesterday and the only time water (warm) froze on the glass was on an unheated porch.

[G Griffin]

I think the best way of saying it is- hot water can freeze quicker than cold, not does.
There are so many variables to this; most of which don`t matter when it comes to cleaning windows.
I think people should concentrate on what happens when cleaning windows and tell of their experiences.

[formb]

having a hot system is pointless i have been using cold and i dont see a advantage to change and pay more money for more to go wrong for no advantage

in winter hot systems have no advantage over cold
1 water will still freeze on glass
2 water will still freeze on the floor
3 hot water freezes faster than cold water

so any one with a hot system no better off than anyone with a cold system

I had 2 out with hot, 2 with cold on Thursday.

The guys with hot did 75% day, no freezing on glass (except a conservatory or 2)

The guys with cold did nowt.

1. The water is less likely to freeze on the glass (the warm water takes the chill off the glass)

2. Salt

3. This is not true if you are referring to cold water which is almost at freezing point in the first place.

[formb]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/PhysFAQ/General/hot_water.html

The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect.  Because, no doubt, most readers are extremely skeptical at this point, we should begin by stating precisely what we mean by the Mpemba effect.  We start with two containers of water, which are identical in shape, and which hold identical amounts of water.  The only difference between the two is that the water in one is at a higher (uniform) temperature than the water in the other.  Now we cool both containers, using the exact same cooling process for each container.  Under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first.  If this occurs, we have seen the Mpemba effect.  Of course, the initially warmer water will not freeze before the initially cooler water for all initial conditions.  If the hot water starts at 99.9°C, and the cold water at 0.01°C, then clearly under those circumstances, the initially cooler water will freeze first.  However, under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first -- if that happens, you have seen the Mpemba effect.  But you will not see the Mpemba effect for just any initial temperatures, container shapes, or cooling conditions.

[G Griffin]

You`re right Form B, we could be here all day using different scenarios.
Now, that is pointless  :. 

[Nathanael Jones]

thanks very much for the ino Nat, what's it like in your part of the world, weather wise?

thanks lee
Ps. merry xmas

Its better here (Cork, Ireland) than a lot of you guys in the UK have had it. The coldest I've worked in this year is -5,... but to be honest its never been the working temp that has stopped me cleaning windows,.. its when the driving conditions get too bad that I pack it in.

I put down loads of salt (Dishwasher salt is very cheap from Lidl), work fast & am careful not to splash water where its not salted. I have aquarium heaters in my static tank & a fan heater in my van at night,.. good gloves & hat,.. and despite the weather I am still on target to have EVERY pre-xmas job completed by the 23rd,... Hot definitely pays for itself,..

[formb]

I have a heater element fitted to my tank which heats my water to about 60'c so thought i was "winter proof"

However I could not have been more wrong.

Sure I can clean the windows and rinse them so I have technicaly done my job, but when working in these very cold temperatures, before the window has had chance to dry it freezes. So the customer is often left with a window they can not see out of.
If I were the customer this would not be acceptable.

So my conclusion is having hot water is a total waste of time and money.

I agree that hot water is not the all encompassing solution to cleaning windows in sub zero conditions that I had hoped it would be.

It definitely gives you more opportunity to work, where work would otherwise be impossible though.

Not sure where the cut off point is but we have worked in around -4 without too much issue, I think any colder will be pushing it though.

[stevenpaulmatthews]

having a hot system is pointless i have been using cold and i dont see a advantage to change and pay more money for more to go wrong for no advantage

in winter hot systems have no advantage over cold
1 water will still freeze on glass
2 water will still freeze on the floor
3 hot water freezes faster than cold water

so any one with a hot system no better off than anyone with a cold system

Im finding the naivety of the lads in this thread nothing short of mind blowing!

im not even going to lower myself to the depths of even trying and educate the cold water lads here, as i think you seem to have made your somewhat jeleous minds up!

In a post 3 weeks back i stated that every other window cleaning company in my home town( no fewer that 12) were unable to work due to snow and sub zero temperatures yet us Clear View Professinal Window Cleaners with our hot water Thermopure machine completed the weeks programme of work and even started on the following mondays schedule.

I was filled pride when we received a phone call form a certain contracts manager passing on his tennats sincere thanks for continuing with scheduled clean for that week in the snowy and frosty condtions and extended thanks for gritting all paths and doorways after window cleaning had finished.

So the gentlemen un decided and in my honest opinion naively blinkerd to the benifits of hot water wfp.............please do the simple maths and try to cast aside the derogatory comments and immature mindset that you have somewhat adopted without conclusive evidence that hot water is no better than cold

[Perfect Windows]

And, as a final point from me, bear in mind that the mindset of "hot water is pointless/hot water is perfection" (in fact "x is perfect / x is utterly terrible") will never get you anywhere.  It's a continuous scale, not binary, and the answer is somewhere along it.  Some good things and some bad.

It's typical of conversations on here - utterly polarised...

Vin

[stevenpaulmatthews]

And, as a final point from me, bear in mind that the mindset of "hot water is pointless/hot water is perfection" (in fact "x is perfect / x is utterly terrible") will never get you anywhere.  It's a continuous scale, not binary, and the answer is somewhere along it.  Some good things and some bad.

It's typical of conversations on here - utterly polarised...

Vin

Great post "perfect" i could not agree more...............pure water is pure water be it hot or cold

my issue here is the fact that some lads will not be aducated to the fact you can work in lower temps with hot water

[lee_dewing]

Thanks, Nathanael Jones

Nat what is your setup themopure or just aquatic heater in tank in van? at home?
would be intrested to know what heater you have for your water; i have static 625 ltr tank at my parents place and use freedom trolley and barrels.

Nat
stevenpaulmatthews
and other hot water guys

thanks for your posts, its nice to hear from people with real experience, i will have to do something for next year.

Luckily where i live it's not been too bad,
having said that it is now snowing heavy and i'm sure that's me done til 2011

[G Griffin]

And, as a final point from me, bear in mind that the mindset of "hot water is pointless/hot water is perfection" (in fact "x is perfect / x is utterly terrible") will never get you anywhere.  It's a continuous scale, not binary, and the answer is somewhere along it.  Some good things and some bad.

It's typical of conversations on here - utterly polarised...

Vin

Completely right. Very often its black or white, either/or.

[Nathanael Jones]

@ Lee,
I'm using a modified L5 heater at the moment,.. but I'm waiting for a sample of a heater from china that has been built to my specs with wfp in mind, hopefully I'll be using this from the new year on if it lives up to the manufacturers promises (and its CE marked!). You could use a gas heater to heat the water as you fill your barrels (a bigger one than an L5 or you'd be all day filling!) and get a taste of warm WFP.

I also have aquarium heaters in my static tank,.. I fill my van tank in the evening & the residual heat helps keep the whole van frost free overnight.

[stevenpaulmatthews]

Lee where are you based mate as it not been to bad here either 5inches of snow at the most

[lee_dewing]

Thanks Nat

Hi stevenpaulmatthews, i'm in waltham abbey essex junction 26 off M25, snow here saturday started about 12.30pm i'd say a few inches now

I fear this maybe my last entry, God bless you all

[steve123]

Thanks for the replies everyone, its been a long while since I was on here but I guess desparation drew me back as the cold weather is really affecting things for me.

I still have mixed feelings but am willing to try again.
My worry is still the same though, what is happening to the windows after I leave the job and go onto the next one?

I have to do something to get out of the house, the wife is driving me crazy!!! 

[Nathanael Jones]

My worry is still the same though, what is happening to the windows after I leave the job and go onto the next one?

If the house is heated then the water won't freeze on the glass unless its extremely cold outside,.. I've worked in -5 no problem. Unheated conservatories etc should be avoided though.

[dave green]

like helen said  simple

[geefree]

Worked friday with hot water, -2 all day....

no freezing on glass, and salted in all the right places,

my reels were warm, my fittings were warm, my van was warm

hoses were supple, and did not freeze whilst extended and sitting in snow,

had a good days wage,

hot water is not pointless in my opinion.

not if you earn a wage, and it dont freeze on glass as much as some will say, dont forget if the house is heated it will be fine also.