[dazmond]

any of you that are still trad really are missing out!!there is no need to climb ladders THESE DAYS!its safer and quicker overall using wfp and dare i say it A BETTER JOB IN MOST CASES!! .

i was trad for 17 years.never go back to full time ladders now.

as for the little white lie i just tell em the truth!ive fell off ladders twice(true!) and dont want to fall off a third time!!
 


dazmond

[Perfect Windows]

On the contrary - All you trad guys, keep doing it, please.

Vin

[Mike55]

I have recently implemented WFP.  I maybe missing something here, but don't the regs say that if a safer alternative to ladders can be used, it must be used?

This seems pretty clear cut to me, or am I missing something?

I have been telling my custards that is the reason I am switching over along with the other benefits of WFP anyway.

[Johnny B]

If ladders are illegal, why can you still buy them new?

Also, if we have to lie in order to get/keep our work, where does the notion that is often vaunted on here that we are trying to make the industry more respectable fit in?   

John.

[Nathanael Jones]

If ladders are illegal, why can you still buy them new?

Also, if we have to lie in order to get/keep our work, where does the notion that is often vaunted on here that we are trying to make the industry more respectable fit in?   

John.

We can buy them because there are still MANY other trades that do not have a practicable alternative method of working. Nobody is lying,.. look into the regulations carefully & you'll see that the criteria for being legally allowed to climb a ladder to clean a window is very strict, and for most of us here would not happen on a daily basis.

[clearlyclean]

why are'nt ladders illegal? if they did you be buying them off some guy in the pub toilets  

[AuRavelling79]

On the contrary - All you trad guys, keep doing it, please.

Vin

I must admit Vin, there is a very selfish part of me that resonates with this comment.

[Johnny B]

Window cleaning will always have its risks, whether you are WFP or trad. The risks may be different, but they are there nevertheless. We all have the gift of free will to decide which method we use, and to change if we see fit to do so.

Call me old fashioned, call me stupid, call me whatever you like. Being trad works for me.
When you become my employer, I will concede!  

John    

[luther1]

Doesn't the wahr  recommend a rough time element in the use of ladders,ie, if you are going to be up the ladder all day cleaning one window,as opposed to the 1-2 minutes it actually takes,then you must use a safer method. To clean from window to window,house to house,is perfectly fine. The safety element implifies the time on the job.

[Johnny B]

Yes, I believe it's 30 minutes. Let me tell you I am slow, but even I can keep within the regs! 

John.

[Mike55]

So work of short duration, as in a couple of mins to clean a window, is acceptable albeit WFP is a safer alternative?

So when does the ruling that alternative method to ladders should be used where possible apply?

Not trying to be obstructive just want to clarify this point.

[luther1]

Common sense prevails where applicable. Ie, slippery roofs,icy patios etc. I should think that most WFP users (myself included) talk aload of nonsence to some stubborn customers to justify using it. It will never be made law because so many other industries rely on the use of ladders so if your happy on one then good for you. I got too old,thats why i changed over.

[Johnny B]

Not sure on that one to be honest Mike.

Both methods have their risks, ie trad - danger of falling off ladder; WFP - someone could trip over the hose. Risk assessments would be required in either case.

As I said, I am trad, and although I am far from fallible, I am very, very careful and risk assess every time I move the ladder. I have had several falls in the past, fortunately in each case without the need to seek medical attention. This is why I now constantly risk assess.

I therefore fully appreciate that ladders can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as the person using it. If I had a fall from mine and I got hurt, I would take full responsibility, as no one has forced me to climb it.

If I went WFP, and lost control of the pole and it clonked a passer-by on the head, would this make this method safer to use? In my case, it would probably not. I am built like Hercules before the sand was kicked in his face, so I would probably not have the physical strength to operate a WFP set-up. I can handle a ladder and bucket OK, so I will stick with that and accept full responsibility for whatever damage I cause using trad methods.  

John.    

[AuRavelling79]

Not sure on that one to be honest Mike.

Both methods have their risks, ie trad - danger of falling off ladder; WFP - someone could trip over the hose. Risk assessments would be required in either case.

As I said, I am trad, and although I am far from fallible, I am very, very careful and risk assess every time I move the ladder. I have had several falls in the past, fortunately in each case without the need to seek medical attention. This is why I now constantly risk assess.

I therefore fully appreciate that ladders can be dangerous, but only as dangerous as the person using it. If I had a fall from mine and I got hurt, I would take full responsibility, as no one has forced me to climb it.

If I went WFP, and lost control of the pole and it clonked a passer-by on the head, would this make this method safer to use? In my case, it would probably not. I am built like Hercules before the sand was kicked in his face, so I would probably not have the physical strength to operate a WFP set-up. I can handle a ladder and bucket OK, so I will stick with that and accept full responsibility for whatever damage I cause using trad methods.  

John.    

The bits in red speak for themselves when put together.

The bit in green:-

If you can lift a ladder you can lift a pole.

You sound like a man who has fired an arrow into a barn door and who has painted a target around it. I.e. You subconsciously believe  "I want to stay trad so I will start from that point and everything else must fit that premise."

[Nathanael Jones]

We all have the gift of free will to decide which method we use,

John    

Small mis-print John,.. it should read "We all have the gift of free will to decide weather to break the law or not".
Really look at the regulations,.. they allow for the odd window that can't be reached WFP, ladders for access etc, and there is even a bit of a financial concession (eg can you afford wfp),.. but I highly doubt you can reasonably say that ladders are the safest method for the majority of your work. The H&S say ladders are a choice, but should always be the LAST choice.

Doesn't the wahr  recommend a rough time element in the use of ladders,ie, if you are going to be up the ladder all day cleaning one window,as opposed to the 1-2 minutes it actually takes,then you must use a safer method. To clean from window to window,house to house,is perfectly fine. The safety element implifies the time on the job.

The time element mentioned by H&S refers to a single job i'm sure,.. eg. if a builders clean on a mansion is going to take an hour per window then cherry picker/scaff etc should be used instead of ladders.
BUT,.. if you were in court after an accident, could you really justify "I was only up the ladder for 2 minutes mlord" when you've been doing 2 minute stints 300 times a day, 5 days a week for the last 10 years?? At what point do the multiple short duration climbs equal the risk of one 30 minute climb?

[luther1]

I agree Nat, because personally i'd rather do one 30 minute climb than fifteen 2 minute climbs,however, i know that one accident is one too many but there is an element of freedom of choice, adequate insurance for both methods and how you personally feel comfortable on a ladder isn't there?

[Johnny B]

The way I see it is, I am happy to do my job my way, and as I have already said, I am very careful, and am not breaking the law by using traditional methods. If I were, I would have been rounded up long ago. I have customers who work in law enforcement. The world is forever trying to mould us into its way of thinking, and making us feel that we are wrong if we are different, or don't keep up with the times.   

For example, if I drove a Morris Minor Van as a work vehicle, would this be outlawed because it has a low powered engine and drum brakes? Or am I required to drive something more modern because the world and his dog says I have to?   

I am not knocking WFP at all. If it works for you, I am happy for you. I simply state that I don't wish to change to it, because I am happy with the way I do things,  but at the same time respect all those who prefer to use it.

Sincere best wishes to you all, 
John.

[Paul Coleman]

why are'nt ladders illegal? if they did you be buying them off some guy in the pub toilets  

I suppose it would depend on how you wanted to pay for the ladder 

[Londoner]

It doesn't really matter anymore because with the new Corporate Liability laws if you fall off your ladder you can sue your customer. Its THEIR responsibility to ensure you are complying with all the relevent H&S and THEIR liability if you don't.

I've fallen off my ladder three times this week so far, and its only Tuesday............. 

[Nathanael Jones]

The way I see it is, I am happy to do my job my way, and as I have already said, I am very careful, and am not breaking the law by using traditional methods. If I were, I would have been rounded up long ago.   

I'm genuinely not trying to knock trad workers,.. I have good friends who work trad & refuse to switch even though it would be perfect for their work.
There are a lot of new guys here, just starting out, who need the correct information, and you telling them its ok to go against the law regarding work at height is simply wrong.
Look at the regs and tell me,.. are you really sure about that section in red? Is there NO OTHER WAY you can work your round? Because if there is a practicable alternative and you don't use it, you are breaking the law.

It is true that the law isn't often enforced prior to an accident,.. but H&S ALWAYS prosecute after an accident if the law has been broken.