[Ian W]

You will find all the info here.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/hub/index.html

Can't find anything about people falling off ladders. 

Damn, they aren't there any more. 

The basic figures were something like 12 deaths a year from ladders and over 300 from road users. Or something like that...

I will see if I can find the proper study later.

do you not think 12 dead poeple is enough ? : if it was your dad or brother would you think different ?

for day in day out use ladders imo should be minamised as there is no reason for it. I clean both trad and wfp and was trad years before switching, but I only go up a ladder for access never will I would on one all day as there is no need.

Of course I think 12 deaths is awful - there would be something wrong with me if I didn't. All this anti-ladder talk needs to be tempered with the knowledge that we can be at risk doing every day things that we don't consider dangeous.

[Ian W]

You'd expect the figure for road deaths to be a lot higher because many more people use roads everyday compared to ladders.

Sorry, just read my original post. There is a typo and it should read 3000 road deaths not 300. More info here.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1208

Unfortunately, I can't find the report on ladder deaths on the statistics website, but I have found this with some basic statistics.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/statistics.htm

[Pristine Clean]

We will always get people say, Ban Ladders. Yes you are right there are risks in everything. But where does it end.

Health and safety has to be taken seriously, however it has got out of hand. And ordanary job that that costs about £300 has now turned into a £1500 just because of health and safety.

I use ladders, but we also use WFP. There are risks even with WFP. Trailing hoses, water everywhere which is a trip hazzard. You can do just as much damage in a trip on a slippery surface or from a hose trailing across the ground as you can from a fall from a ladder.

Warning signs only make people aware that there are trailing cables, wet slippery surfaces. They do not remove the danger.

What is generally missing from everybody is pure common sense.

At the end its all about money making.

Selling h&s is a big business. So is selling WFP.

If you do the research there are more cases of people tripping over cables, trailing hoses, slippery surfaces than falling off a ladder.

But when it comes to advertising WFP. They only mention the good points. They dont mention the bad bits. Water useage. Alot of wasted water. Trailing hoses. The list goes on.

Theres pros and cons for every thing.

[dazmond]

im 100% trad but i use extension poles for awkward windows and i also use a ladderstopper and mitts.

i do everything possible to make my work life safer.however i will be adding wfp as im sick of climbing ladders day in/day out.its taking its toll on my knees after 16 years.ive also had 2 falls off ladders and got away with a sprained ankle.(many years ago).

regarding water usage wfp surely if you use common sense and get a trigger/tap/autobrush and use the wet brush/scrub technique you can clean windows with half the water(after the first cleans are out of the way)and if you use a trolley on compact residential you can cut down on trailing hoses?

there will always be some element of risk but you can reduce it by working at a steady measured pace and not running around like an idiot(groundhog video springs to mind! )


beast wishes guys

dazmond

[Nathanael Jones]

The MHSW Regulations don't apply to domestic work in a private household.

Is that the work at height regs you're talking about? If so you are wrong, there is no restriction to what situations the regulations apply to.

[Nathanael Jones]

As I have said before, it is statistically more dangerous on the road than climbing a ladder. Please stop going on about it folks, it's getting boring now...  :

So 40,000 odd window cleaners on ladders and about 12 per year killed,.. a 1 in 3333 chance

35,000,000 cars on the road and 3000 deaths = 11666 chance of getting killed

speaks for itself really.

[Scrimble]

its not just window cleaners who use ladders,

painter decorators, alarm engineers, digital tv installers etc

others have to use ladders, window cleaners do not

[Darranvps]

As I have said before, it is statistically more dangerous on the road than climbing a ladder. Please stop going on about it folks, it's getting boring now...  :

So 40,000 odd window cleaners on ladders and about 12 per year killed,.. a 1 in 3333 chance

35,000,000 cars on the road and 3000 deaths = 11666 chance of getting killed

speaks for itself really.

Sorry for changing the subject - what is Therm Shine?

[Ian W]

We will always get people say, Ban Ladders. Yes you are right there are risks in everything. But where does it end.

Health and safety has to be taken seriously, however it has got out of hand. And ordanary job that that costs about £300 has now turned into a £1500 just because of health and safety.

I use ladders, but we also use WFP. There are risks even with WFP. Trailing hoses, water everywhere which is a trip hazzard. You can do just as much damage in a trip on a slippery surface or from a hose trailing across the ground as you can from a fall from a ladder.

Warning signs only make people aware that there are trailing cables, wet slippery surfaces. They do not remove the danger.

What is generally missing from everybody is pure common sense.

At the end its all about money making.

Selling h&s is a big business. So is selling WFP.

If you do the research there are more cases of people tripping over cables, trailing hoses, slippery surfaces than falling off a ladder.

But when it comes to advertising WFP. They only mention the good points. They dont mention the bad bits. Water useage. Alot of wasted water. Trailing hoses. The list goes on.

Theres pros and cons for every thing.

Well said that man.

[Ian W]

As I have said before, it is statistically more dangerous on the road than climbing a ladder. Please stop going on about it folks, it's getting boring now...  :

So 40,000 odd window cleaners on ladders and about 12 per year killed,.. a 1 in 3333 chance

35,000,000 cars on the road and 3000 deaths = 11666 chance of getting killed

speaks for itself really.

Where did you get the 40,000 figure for window cleaners on ladders? Did I miss something?

And remember, the deaths are for all ladder users, not just window cleaners. Think how many others use ladders; BT, Sky, builders, painters, diyers. So I stand by my statement that it is statistically better to use a ladder than use the road.

[Nathanael Jones]

Sorry for changing the subject - what is Therm Shine?

Its like an Ionics system, just better.

As I have said before, it is statistically more dangerous on the road than climbing a ladder. Please stop going on about it folks, it's getting boring now...  :

So 40,000 odd window cleaners on ladders and about 12 per year killed,.. a 1 in 3333 chance

35,000,000 cars on the road and 3000 deaths = 11666 chance of getting killed

speaks for itself really.

Where did you get the 40,000 figure for window cleaners on ladders? Did I miss something?

And remember, the deaths are for all ladder users, not just window cleaners. Think how many others use ladders; BT, Sky, builders, painters, diyers. So I stand by my statement that it is statistically better to use a ladder than use the road.

40,000 was a figure mentioned here before of UK window cleaners using ladders.

Regardless of the statistics, the WAHR rules are clear as crystal, and if you fall from a ladder or cause damage when using a ladder in a situation where wfp or another method was reasonably practicable, then your insurance could tell you that your claim is not valid because you were technically breaking the law.
If its an employee or member of the public that gets injured because of ladder use you may face prosecution (The H&S people rarely prosecute until after an accident occurs) and could end up with a hefty fine & possible even jail time.
There is also the corporate manslaughter act,.. someone dies because of your unsafe/illegal ladder use you could be charged with manslaughter,.. that might put a slight dent in your reputation locally,...

Ladders are not banned, but the restrictions are much tighter than many ppl realise. It is almost impossible to clean windows on a daily basis using ladders without breaking these laws.

[Tom White]

You don’t ever seem to hear about private householders being taken to court and fined yet ladder monkeys are often falling and injuring themselves on domestics.

If a few householders were fined it might make people sit up and think twice, There is an alternative to dangerous practices and it should be employed.

There was a window cleaner here, a few years back, who fell from a house and tried to sue the property owners by going through one of those scumbag 'no win no fee' lawyers. 

He was basically told to 'bog off' by the lawyers because I think there is a difference in the law regarding domestic properties and commercial properties.  Now I don't know what that is.

However, I did read a newspaper clip - I may have it somewhere - where a Sommerfield delivery man tripped and fell while making a delivery to a house, and he took the property owners to court to sue them, but I don't know how that went.

Does anyone have a definitive answer on this; and not something you've heard from the grapevine?

[dazmond]

there quite a few guys near me have doleys working up the ladders on their round! : ::)absolute madness!! : :

[Ian W]

Sorry for changing the subject - what is Therm Shine?

Its like an Ionics system, just better.

As I have said before, it is statistically more dangerous on the road than climbing a ladder. Please stop going on about it folks, it's getting boring now...  :

So 40,000 odd window cleaners on ladders and about 12 per year killed,.. a 1 in 3333 chance

35,000,000 cars on the road and 3000 deaths = 11666 chance of getting killed

speaks for itself really.

Where did you get the 40,000 figure for window cleaners on ladders? Did I miss something?

And remember, the deaths are for all ladder users, not just window cleaners. Think how many others use ladders; BT, Sky, builders, painters, diyers. So I stand by my statement that it is statistically better to use a ladder than use the road.

40,000 was a figure mentioned here before of UK window cleaners using ladders.

Regardless of the statistics, the WAHR rules are clear as crystal, and if you fall from a ladder or cause damage when using a ladder in a situation where wfp or another method was reasonably practicable, then your insurance could tell you that your claim is not valid because you were technically breaking the law.
If its an employee or member of the public that gets injured because of ladder use you may face prosecution (The H&S people rarely prosecute until after an accident occurs) and could end up with a hefty fine & possible even jail time.
There is also the corporate manslaughter act,.. someone dies because of your unsafe/illegal ladder use you could be charged with manslaughter,.. that might put a slight dent in your reputation locally,...

Ladders are not banned, but the restrictions are much tighter than many ppl realise. It is almost impossible to clean windows on a daily basis using ladders without breaking these laws.

Do you have any links to reports of prosecution cases Nathanael? Not saying it isn't possible, but if you are assuming this would happen, that isn't the same as fact. 

[Nathanael Jones]

Do you have any links to reports of prosecution cases Nathanael? Not saying it isn't possible, but if you are assuming this would happen, that isn't the same as fact. 

Sorry, in a rush to go out,.. but I'll find a couple & post links after work. In the meantime do a search on here for "prosecuted" and "fined" and see what comes up. I'm sure there was a link only a couple of weeks ago about it.

[Nathanael Jones]

http://www.ppconstructionsafety.com/newsdesk/2010/05/11/client-responsible-for-window-cleaner-fall/

again direct from the HSE with a bit of info attached on the regs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2010/coi-em-0810.htm

Notice all the other methods that have to be dismissed BEFORE even considering ladders:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

Between 2 & 7 window cleaners killed each year in the UK:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

Insurance???
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/45848-hurt-window-cleaners-ladder-insurance-shock

Prosecution:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/Prosecutions/case/case_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=4072807

Another:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/ProsecutionsHistory/case/case_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=2017606

A fine:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/ProsecutionsHistory/breach/breach_details.asp?SF=BID&SV=2016485001

HSE are watching you:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/Notice_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=300601356

[james44]

I can`t understand all the hype about wfp being  the safest method when a trad pole is far safer!

[Ian W]

Thanks Nathanael. Some good links there, but I think I can only see one being directly to do with ladders and that was because they were being used to climb onto a balcony with railings. The others aren't clear enough to understand exactly what the offence was - it could be ladders, but it might not be. I think they could even be wfp hoses left trailing around with disregard for safety - it just doesn't state the exact issue. (Unless I am missing something.)

I am not sure that the order of methods is the hse's preferred way of cleaning windows, at least I couldn't see anything stating that on the quick look I had. (Although I know ladders should not be an automatic option to clean windows.) Some of those methods seem more dangerous than a ladder to me.

The poor window cleaner left disabled appears to have had the wrong insurance and the article mentions a window ledge. If he was using the window ledge to stand on, then I am not really surprised there is an insurance problem.

I know of some difficult houses to clean where the top bay is a different shape to the bottom bay making ladder access difficult. I watched some lads crawling round on the window ledges to clean them. Shocking really, as the problem would be easily solved with the right equipment.

[billhope_1]

I've been trad for the last 25yrs & never had a fall,I must be very very lucky according to the pole brigade! or heavens forbid that ladders are'nt the savage killers that they made out to be (or maybe thats how they justify to themselves the ludicrous amounts of money they spend, just to clean a few windows).
Ironicaly I know of a local pole monkey who tripped over & finished up with 6 stitches in a head wound whilst playing with his brush thing (should come with a health warning that wfp ha ha ). As for results I've picked up dozens & dozens of pole monkeys ex custy's, who think wfp is a joke whilst not losing a single custy to the pole monkeys !!!!! I rest my case.

[Nathanael Jones]

I've been trad for the last 25yrs & never had a fall,I must be very very lucky according to the pole brigade! or heavens forbid that ladders are'nt the savage killers that they made out to be (or maybe thats how they justify to themselves the ludicrous amounts of money they spend, just to clean a few windows).
Ironicaly I know of a local pole monkey who tripped over & finished up with 6 stitches in a head wound whilst playing with his brush thing (should come with a health warning that wfp ha ha ). As for results I've picked up dozens & dozens of pole monkeys ex custy's, who think wfp is a joke whilst not losing a single custy to the pole monkeys !!!!! I rest my case.

So are you saying your ladder usage complies 100% with Current legislation?

Are you 100% sure you insurance (If you have any) will cover you in the event of a ladder related incident?

Regardless of your personal views of the quality of trad work compared to wfp,.. the law is the law.