Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dai on October 08, 2009, 09:17:46 pm
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Had a bit of a shock today, I was doing a block of 12 luxury apartments on the seafront.
Quite a few had their usual splashes of seagull muck, I looked out for the affected windows and gave each one a soak prior to washing.
I started on the job scrubbing each pane until the poo had disappeared, gave a good rinse and moved on to the next.
I finished the job at 4 pm, by which time the windows had dried. The sun was shining on the cleaned glass as it sank lower in the sky. the poo had returned, you could still see it on most of the panes.
Ok did them again, as soon as the water hit the glass the marks were invisible again, only to reappear all be it fainter as they dried. I did one pane 5 times before I was satisfied that all traces had gone.
Now on most jobs, I would have already moved on before the glass dried.
I think it's all to easy to delude ourselves about the power of pure water and WFP.
LESSON LEARNED.
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I get lessons like that Dai. It isnt easy to sit with sometimes, mostly whilst you are there in the middle of it ;D but it does help to keep me on my toes. To remind me to be thorough. Im sure I scrub too much, but it probably isnt so bad if it helps to ensure the job is done properly. Although I rinse well Im sure more would help.
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I think sometimes folk forget that 30 seconds per window, isn't always enough ;)
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I've been in a bad mood all day - first job was a large house with painted frames. I could still see the spots and runs from the last time I cleaned it (four passes that time)
You make excuses for the poor quality - ah, must have rained, must be the spiders etc etc when in reality it's the system that doesn't work that well.
I saw them again today after they had dried - rubbish - totally demoralizing.
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I think seagulls eat mortar and poo cement cos that is the most stubborn crap i clean off windows.
I tried cleaning some office windows last month, hoping to fit it in before it got dark. I had to go back the next day and it was as you say. The worst i normally get is where it leaves a faint shadow.
It's hard to notice until they dry. I normally take a peek the next day if it's a commercial job. Residential i'll ask the customer to let me know.
ftp, just read your post as i tried to post and want to mention that it is a weakness. I've got loads of jobs like this that took months of cleaning before they dried without marks. I used to wipe the bottom part of glass with a microfibre until they came good.
The beauty is that once you do get them coming up spotless that 1st time, they will be much easier to do forever after.
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I think sometimes folk forget that 30 seconds per window, isn't always enough ;)
30 seconds! I reckon for a regular clean, a standard window should take no longer than 15 seconds as long as it's not been soiled by something other than the weather and time.
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would a hot water system not b better at getting rid of bird mess?
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you need a hot system Dia! :)
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ws oinga horrible old job 6 storeys wooden frames the ones were the water runs of like milk and i couldnt get them right at all.
i often find people over rate WFP iv seen many who say how good it is but its a shame hey dont check there work.
At least with trad you can see and get them has perfect has yo like.....
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i dont think about it anymore
its not worth it
i had a phone call today, saying i had missed 2 windows yesterday, i know i didnt, i am 99% sure of it, they said they can still see 2 spiders webs, the only thing i can think is that the spiders web is on the brick reveals and my brush went under them when cleaning
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spiders are pretty fast at making webs
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dai, have you thought of using the reach a round, alexg has it on his site
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spiders are pretty fast at making webs
They certainly are.
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spiders are pretty fast at making webs
i started next door to where i finished yesterday - today, next door was spotless (trad:) but point is, a huge web was covering the window id cleaned!! No way it was there the day before, as i couldnt of bladed it where it was
and , i think wfp has a place, but its hard to only use it for the ones wher it comes it right, although that would seem the right thing, but obvioulsy time, and expanse etc come into play
its definitely hard i find to be fast though as i dont know when to stop cleaning as i dont know if its clean when i walk away, at least with trad i can see
Funny how after some of you have forgotten the costs etc which used to force you to justify now you accept actually wfp isnt the be all and end all
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yes i trust it and love it
i was sat having my lunch today watching a trad guy... buy the time he had done one upstairs double window... moving ladders around for both... i would have been round the back with wfp.
no kidding either...
but contrary to another post on another topic, i think 3 seconds to release clamp, and get pole to ground floor window is a little far fetched.
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i wouldnt go back to trad not now am used to wfp it might not b perfect but what is
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I trust hot wfp 100%, I trust cold wfp 80%. Trusting certain brushes for certain jobs also ensures confidence in ability to clean windows thoroughly.
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I trust hot wfp 100%, I trust cold wfp 80%. Trusting certain brushes for certain jobs also ensures confidence in ability to clean windows thoroughly.
explain the brush for diffrent jobs im intrested!
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this is precisely why im a little bit worried about goin WFP.ive been TRAD for 15 yrs and most days im happy with what i earn and the simplicity of the job.i have quite a lot of big posh houses and im worried my standards will slip.there r a lot of TRAD cleaners near me and i dont want to lose custys.u just dont know what ur leaving behind.im worried itll all b an expensive mistake and a lot of hassle.i use TRAD poles but i dont think custys will like the water everywhere,leaving wet windows etc if i get a system and van next year.im a master squeegy man and my custys often comment how good my work is!and i enjoy TRAD,low overheads,simple life etc and im happy!im really in two minds AGAIN ::) ::) ::)
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same here pal
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I think sometimes folk forget that 30 seconds per window, isn't always enough ;)
30 seconds! I reckon for a regular clean, a standard window should take no longer than 15 seconds as long as it's not been soiled by something other than the weather and time.
i agree, 15secs is for a good clean too. (regular 4wk clean)
need a good flow of around 1.5- 2lpm, cant clean windows fast with 0.5lpm, they will be clean, just not quick enough.
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You have to take a balanced view with WFP. Money and time V a few problems.
McDonalds food isn't perfect but the are doing alright.
If you do every window to absolute perfection the chances are 95% of the time its overkill. Thats not to say you should be slapdash. Always do the best you can but if you do an identical job for two different customers one will be delighted and the other will find fault.
If you work to the highest standard possible you will only do half as many houses in a day and that woman at no 43 will still say its smeary.
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You have to take a balanced view with WFP. Money and time V a few problems.
McDonalds food isn't perfect but the are doing alright.
If you do every window to absolute perfection the chances are 95% of the time its overkill. Thats not to say you should be slapdash. Always do the best you can but if you do an identical job for two different customers one will be delighted and the other will find fault.
If you work to the highest standard possible you will only do half as many houses in a day and that woman at no 43 will still say its smeary.
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Very good post.
In addition to my previous post when I was contemplating moving over to WFP I was trying to get a similiar discussion going on CIU. Of course I was sceptical in the same way most are, its a totally new method of trying to ply your trade when you are used to ladders, being upfront with the glass and seeing your results.
I prided myself on doing a good job trad. Most do I think.
One person said one thing on here that swung the lead for me and enabled me to make the descision. He said 'Matt, you'll make mistakes with WFP but when you made mistakes trad you really do see it. When the sun shines on a trad mistake and that detergent smear is a foot wide where the blade has risen up over the seal, but the odd run or trail on a window with WFP isnt half as bad'.
It isnt always that dramatic a difference but mistakes are also made trad. Dont forget that.
I should know, I made one once.
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the thing is that as you say the blocks were on the seafront so besides all the bird muck you also have a lot of salt in the air add the windy conditions you get at seasides and those windows will take much longer to clean than in other area's.
A hot water system would would cut through all those obstructions much easier and if you use a double trim brush then try swapping over to a vikan as I find they clean the glass much better
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You have to take a balanced view with WFP. Money and time V a few problems.
McDonalds food isn't perfect but the are doing alright.
If you do every window to absolute perfection the chances are 95% of the time its overkill. Thats not to say you should be slapdash. Always do the best you can but if you do an identical job for two different customers one will be delighted and the other will find fault.
If you work to the highest standard possible you will only do half as many houses in a day and that woman at no 43 will still say its smeary.
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true that, i do front a of a largish 3 bed semi with diamond imprint on the top small windows, i clean them for ages as she monas every time, no matter how long i spend messing something is wrong she waits for the sun to shine through and goes over them with a fine toothcomb, the only compliant i get is from her, dont know what to do.... this is trad by the way, might do hers with my back pack next time, she wont see anything then unless it spots
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this is precisely why im a little bit worried about goin WFP.ive been TRAD for 15 yrs and most days im happy with what i earn and the simplicity of the job.i have quite a lot of big posh houses and im worried my standards will slip.there r a lot of TRAD cleaners near me and i dont want to lose custys.u just dont know what ur leaving behind.im worried itll all b an expensive mistake and a lot of hassle.i use TRAD poles but i dont think custys will like the water everywhere,leaving wet windows etc if i get a system and van next year.im a master squeegy man and my custys often comment how good my work is!and i enjoy TRAD,low overheads,simple life etc and im happy!im really in two minds AGAIN ::) ::) ::)
I think you may need to think of a different picture. If you take the time to do everything to perfection, this can make a less viable business than doing it good enough most of the time with the odd imperfection sometimes. The second way makes more money than the first. The second way will also probably bring the odd complaint. It was the same principle when I was trad only. To make decnt money, there might have been the occasional imperfection and complaint. Putting this right (or even losing the custie) was more viable than doing everything perfectly.
WFP is fine for most windows most of the time and can often do as good a job as trad (sometimes even better). However, you may need to cut yourself some slack on the first cleans (and hope that the custie does too). Also, use a decent flow rate - especially at first.
WFP may take longer on first cleans if you do them properly and while you get used to a new way of working. However, it will eventually be faster on nearly all jobs - a LOT faster on some.
Of course, there is also the much improved safety aspect too.
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this is precisely why im a little bit worried about goin WFP.ive been TRAD for 15 yrs and most days im happy with what i earn and the simplicity of the job.i have quite a lot of big posh houses and im worried my standards will slip.there r a lot of TRAD cleaners near me and i dont want to lose custys.u just dont know what ur leaving behind.im worried itll all b an expensive mistake and a lot of hassle.i use TRAD poles but i dont think custys will like the water everywhere,leaving wet windows etc if i get a system and van next year.im a master squeegy man and my custys often comment how good my work is!and i enjoy TRAD,low overheads,simple life etc and im happy!im really in two minds AGAIN ::) ::) ::)
If you go into it with high standards only you can let them slip. if you want to keep them high you will.
and you don't have to get rid of your ladders, I only offer wfp, but I have my bucket in the passenger footwell for when i need it.
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This was a regular 6 weekly clean. I read about some of the times quoted on here and there's no way I can match some of these claims for speed. I do take my time and do the very best I can. I wonder if some guys are doing the bottoms while the tops are still dripping over them.
If you had looked at these windows front on, you may not have noticed the marks I had left, but with the sun being low and the angle just right , you could see them all.
As soon as these marks were whetted they disappeared. I am wondering if my shades had something to do with this, I was wearing subscription polarised glasses, these cut out all reflected glare and maybe made the marks more difficult to see. I was using the superlight dual trim flocked brush on the tops, and a Vykan on the bottoms, both left marks.
I have a small piece of plastic scouring pad on the side of the superlite, this did remove the marks.
I rarely get any complaints about my WFP work, and the ones I have had were nothing to do with the glass being clean.
My main concern yesterday was how many of these marks have I left in the past, when I thought I had done an excellent job.
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Doing windows trad or wfp you cannot acheive perfection 100 of the time ,if no one complains no point in thinking about it, if they complain put it right this is what i do and it works for me. ;D
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i average 4 3bed semis an hour on my compact work which is 2 wks on 2 big estates.everybody got 3 bins these days,some flat roofs over garages,then theres the cat/dog muck,2 cars on the drives,garden furniture etc.i cant see WFPbein any quicker however my other 2 weeks work is scattered big houses some georgian/leaded etc and i think i would save time on the accounts that take me an hour TRAD.but these are the custys that make me the most money with the 3 bedders my 'bread and butter work'.im on a water meter and live in a first floor flat.higher overheads.water bills,resin,decent poles,etc,etc.equipment problems.its seems a lot of hassle.water is 35 tds tho so i would only need a DI.no trolley for me and barrels.i would go for van mount with backpack probably.some of u lads are only cleaning as many houses as me a day with WFP.still not sure ::) ::) ::)
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I find cleaning windows that have been done traditionally or even cleaned by the customer themselves need more of a rinse due to the detergents used around the rims of the frames, thats what leaves the runs mostly, although windows that havent been cleaned in donkeys years on old painted frames will do the same. Ive had no complaints so far from anyone so im happy enough.
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i also forgot to say most of my work is monthly and in the leafy suburbs and sometimes there filthy with all the crap off the trees,pollen,birdmuck,insect poo.i just dont know how u can keep scrubbing with a wet brush and be quicker than TRAD.DO U HAVE TO GET THE LADDERS OUT IF THE STUBBORN STUFF DOESNT COME OFF?i think the poles should have a scraper fixed to back of brush.what about ur arms and neck using poles all day?constantly reeling hoses in all day?sounds like a nightmare.not even mentioned system freezing or getting stolen,pump problems.AND THAT DAMN HOSE SNAGGING ON EVERYTHING AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN ::) ::) ::)
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horses for courses daz we are all different and use what makes us happy :)
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JRD uv only been goin a month havent u? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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yep and most if not all of my cleans have been rotten with bird muck, etc on them, they have all come up well :) Its what i wanted to get and its what im sticking with, there will be lows, there will be highs but i'll tramp on and come out the other side smiling when im looking at my bank balance :D
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best wishes JRD im glad ive stuck at it all these years {15} and im only 37.plenty of life in me yet! ;D ;D
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yep and most if not all of my cleans have been rotten with bird muck, etc on them, they have all come up well :) Its what i wanted to get and its what im sticking with, there will be lows, there will be highs but i'll tramp on and come out the other side smiling when im looking at my bank balance :D
i like it ;D
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No complaints from my custies - but I'm never happy with wfp and wouldn't trust it 100% ever. However, having said that I'm never happy with my trad results either ;D
What I am happy with though is keeping both feet on the ground.
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WFP was invented for ease and speed for the window cleaner simple as that. Granted it is safer than ladders but i sometimes wonder if the window cleaner buys the kit soley for the safety aspect or for other benefits?
If WFP was say 30% slower than trad i wonder just how many w/c would be using it ?
All my life ive been trad and damn good at it too but last few months ive been converting over to WFP
Why? Because its a piece of cake thats why, im not scared of ladders and i always use ladders in a safe way.
Do i think the results of WFP are any better? Nope
Using WFP can i walk away confident of the quality of the work? Nope
Using trad can i walk away confident of the quality of work? Yes
Using trad do i fear complaints? Nope
Using Wfp do i fear complaints? Bag of nerves
Do you sometimes cringe when customers sees and hears all the water crashing down to their pathes?
Do you get fed up with all the costs of WFP?
Worried about freezing weather when WFP?
Now ask yourself the real reason you spent thousands on WFP
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I didnt spend thousands on mine, just 2500 :) and i bought it for ease of use and speed although it takes time to get up to speed though in line with doing the job right. I can also get cheaper PL insurance something im sure ladder men have trouble getting or in some cases dont have it at all!!
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Only one reason for me - to come into the 'trade' and not require ladders. The only reason. Strangely though I find myself using them quite often these days and have overcome my initial dislike/fear of them.
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I didnt spend thousands on mine, just 2500 :) and i bought it for ease of use and speed although it takes time to get up to speed though in line with doing the job right. I can also get cheaper PL insurance something im sure ladder men have trouble getting or in some cases dont have it at all!!
Don't talk daft. I'm trad only and have £2.5m PL and it costs me the princely sum of £8 a month with Axa.
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I didnt spend thousands on mine, just 2500 :) and i bought it for ease of use and speed although it takes time to get up to speed though in line with doing the job right. I can also get cheaper PL insurance something im sure ladder men have trouble getting or in some cases dont have it at all!!
Don't talk daft. I'm trad only and have £2.5m PL and it costs me the princely sum of £8 a month with Axa.
Simon out of interest does that cover you for damage to the custys property as well as third parties? Im looking at pl at the mo
cheers in advance
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I didnt spend thousands on mine, just 2500 :) and i bought it for ease of use and speed although it takes time to get up to speed though in line with doing the job right. I can also get cheaper PL insurance something im sure ladder men have trouble getting or in some cases dont have it at all!!
Don't talk daft. I'm trad only and have £2.5m PL and it costs me the princely sum of £8 a month with Axa.
Simon out of interest does that cover you for damage to the custys property as well as third parties? Im looking at pl at the mo
cheers in advance
pl ONLY covers you for 3rd party damage to customers property/people on it.
Don't confuse pl with personal injury insurance.
eg: You break a customers window...you're covered (subject to the excess)
You fall and break your leg...you're not covered.
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no trust trad 99% wfp 70% only seen it working 3 or 4 times was not impressed with the results & what ive read on here its not 100% . dont tell me its the user not the system more problems with wfp than trad trad is the daddy!!!!!!! you all know it is unless you have never been trad. :o :o :o :o :o ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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wfp does often leave residues of bird, fly and bee poo. You won't see this until window dries. With bird poo I always give an extra scrub even when it looks to have shifted. Often can't see with bee and fly spots though on upstairs windows.
Only way to be more confident is to go hot wfp. Disadvantage is initial outlay and runnuing costs 1k plus a year.
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dai i think you will find un-flocked has far better scrubbing power the flocked is very soft bristled in comparison
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Do we think that there is a real case for hot wfp vice cold...I have asked on here a couple of times what the real day to day benefits of hot are...could the benefits be a better clean?
I would dearly love to hear from those who have been cold and now in the warm..
Cheers
Dave.
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trad is better because you can inspect every window before you leave it but i have only had a few complaints in 18 months of wfp only had 5 complaints in 10yrs of trad but now i have perfected my wfp technique
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splash and dash for me everytime , we do about 500 houses a month and get on average 3 complaints , we also get a lot of our custies through recommendation , even first cleans only get done once i used to go over them twice but don,t have the time now , i make a point of being cheery to the custies , maybe thats why i only get 3 complaints lol
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i also forgot to say most of my work is monthly and in the leafy suburbs and sometimes there filthy with all the crap off the trees,pollen,birdmuck,insect poo.i just dont know how u can keep scrubbing with a wet brush and be quicker than TRAD.DO U HAVE TO GET THE LADDERS OUT IF THE STUBBORN STUFF DOESNT COME OFF?
I have a trad pole and put a scraper on the end on the rare occasions this happens.
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WFP was invented for ease and speed for the window cleaner simple as that. Granted it is safer than ladders but i sometimes wonder if the window cleaner buys the kit soley for the safety aspect or for other benefits?
If WFP was say 30% slower than trad i wonder just how many w/c would be using it ?
All my life ive been trad and damn good at it too but last few months ive been converting over to WFP
Why? Because its a piece of cake thats why, im not scared of ladders and i always use ladders in a safe way.
Do i think the results of WFP are any better? Nope
Using WFP can i walk away confident of the quality of the work? Nope
Using trad can i walk away confident of the quality of work? Yes
Using trad do i fear complaints? Nope
Using Wfp do i fear complaints? Bag of nerves
Do you sometimes cringe when customers sees and hears all the water crashing down to their pathes?
Do you get fed up with all the costs of WFP?
Worried about freezing weather when WFP?
Now ask yourself the real reason you spent thousands on WFP
To earn more money and to be able to tender for work that I couldn't do from a ladder. Extra safety is a highly desirable side effect though. Unfortunately, I had to blag it a bit about safety regs at first with a few custies until they started to see that the results were fine.
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I did my own windows again yesterday using the same method as all my customers. I have to say the results are rubbish as usual. If there was a more reliable safer method I would happily sling the lot on the nearest tip!
I've just been cussing and swearing but the wife can't understand why I get so angry and points out that my customers never complain. Going to go back to the non flocked brush again and try that.
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The worst thing I'm finding with wfp is that I'm still leaving white spots in the top corners of windows.Some windows are fine but others it's very noticable,no matter how much scrubbing or rinsing.I tend to do wfp for upstairs of houses and trad fro downstairs so I can at least be assured the downtairs is 100% when I leave.Having said that,I've not had one complaint about the windows I've done wfp in 6 months.
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spiders are pretty fast at making webs
It takes about one hour for a spider to construct an elaborate web of silk thread, called an orb web. An orb web consists of a series of roughly circular, concentric outlines, with spokes extending from a hub. Orb webs, which are most noticeable in the morning dew, are constructed by many species of spiders.
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simon most public liability dont cover for the property your working on, you have to pay extra forit an out of intrest wo you insured with???? i would be intrested to know and up to what height that cvers you
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Ftp seems to be on the 'spot' so to speak..I really do not trust wfp and speed...I clean my own house at the same speed I clean customers houses and generally I am not satisfied at the results.
So much infact that I am considering 'hot' but need to be convinced that is merely a good tool for warm hands and really dirty commerical 6monthly work.
But in general I think that wfp produces a 'acceptable' end result...and as such I am starting to re-think my whole approach to this window cleaning lark.
On the other side I have seen loads of really shoddy windo cleaning using the trad method.
It could just be that I am totally pants at using wfp...
But like FTP my says my misses also says to me "stop complaining, we do not get very many complaints" and it's true...my 'you're house has been cleaned today' card has the message "if your not satisfied...call us" written on it...so they have loads of information to phone in a complaint.
How do you feel...lets not make this a wfp v trad war.
Cheers
Dave.
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I did my own windows again yesterday using the same method as all my customers. I have to say the results are rubbish as usual. If there was a more reliable safer method I would happily sling the lot on the nearest tip!
I've just been cussing and swearing but the wife can't understand why I get so angry and points out that my customers never complain. Going to go back to the non flocked brush again and try that.
I started to get issues (a couple of complaints, and cancellations) when I used a flocked brush, Ive stopped using it too.
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simon most public liability dont cover for the property your working on, you have to pay extra forit an out of intrest wo you insured with???? i would be intrested to know and up to what height that cvers you
Ronnie, I've no idea up to what height I'm covered. All I said was that I'm a window cleaner and need 3rd party cover in case I do damage to a customers property.
Axa never asked whether I'm trad or wfp. I've a £250 excess so short of destroying an entire conservatory Axa are pretty safe ::)
Frankly with my excess I think it's £8 a month wasted...but it gives customers a feeling of security and it's always nice to be able to tell them "I'm insured for up to £2.5m"
Again: Please don't confuse pl with personal accident cover as PA is a whole new ball game and can be very expensive.
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For problem windows wfp, could it possible to add certain detergents to a barrell of pure water, scrub and then rinse with just pure water?
Or t-bar on a pole, clean windows and the rinse with wfp.
Apart from being time consuming, are there any reasons for these methods not being practical?
I may sound really thick, so go easy on me :P
Gerry.
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I try my best to get a perfect result everytime but it just ain't gonna happen, get inside the house when the windows are dry and something will show up.
Maybe it's just me, as these "I always get a 100% perfect clean everytime" seem to nail it.
Then again, either they are partially sighted/ have low standards/ or just exaggerate ;D
Thankfully most customers have got other things to worry about in life than minutely examining each and every window you've cleaned ;D
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so there we have it.WFP crap then in the main?thanks for ur honesty guys.i can well understand using WFP on commercial etc but domestic which is my whole round im probably better sticking to TRAD and extension poles for awkward windows.it just seems a lot of hassle and expense and who knows?maybe ur domestic custys are not saying anything yet but in a year or so might switch to a TRAD cleaner with a good reputation if one comes along.im better off pricing well,doin a good job and piece of mind knowing i left the windows spotless especially if im taking 20 or 30quid off them every month.low overheads and less money but normal water bills,no forking out on expensive poles that last 2 mins,no pump problems,hoses snagging/freezing,nice tidy little van and not a monster one to carry all that water about!a lot to be said for the simple life ;D ;D
best wishes to everyone
DAZMOND
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What I've found lately is that when using a flocked brush I'm managing to get horizontal trails of spots obviously where the last few bristles must be trailing the glass on a rinse. I've read so many reports of people rinsing on even with a flocked superlight that I've believed it possible even though I normally try to rinse off glass. I don't like black bristles either 'cos I can't see the dirt but I do like the feel of a flocked brush.
Oh, and another clamp lever pinged off this morning - I'm even more miserable now. >:(
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Dazmond trad and a pole might be even crapper! You need to get inside and up close to see the results.
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FTP ive been using extension poles for a few years now.i find they come up ok as long as i make sure i use a good rubber on blade and use a dry microfibre in a fixiclamp for detailing.i do my flat windows every so often with the pole and they come up good bar the odd line at the edge where the water has dried before ive detailed.at first they came up crap but got a lot better with practice.most custys are just glad that ive even attempted to clean the awkward windows as they usually say their last WC didnt bother.i only use the pole for dodgy ones and ladders for everything else
regards dazmond
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thanks ewan but no way is WFP mainstream on domestics in manchester.i think they ll always be room for a squeegy!maybe different in afew years.so are ur 4 bungalows ur only happy custys then? ;D ;Dand are they partially sighted or family and friends? ;D ;D
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see the thing is simon they need all this information to giv you a proper quote!!
you cant just say im a window cleaner ok well here is a price wha if your jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings.....my point being the same has van insurance many wont even be covered has they have not informed of there modficaion or in your case what methods are being used and at what height.
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I don't aim to do a perfect job with wfp method. Acceptable level suits me fine.
I made the mistake of cleaning everything when trad and trying to reach perfection every time at a cost to me. Don't make the same mistake now I'm wfp. Don't care for perfection...just more time in bed and more money in my pocket.
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Ive had a demonstration by ionics with heated water and the window that was cleaned twice is still clean. Whereas when ive cleaned them trad it would have been filthy by now and i live by a main road. provided glass alone is rinsed properly after the frames Hot Water fed pole is a better result than traditional. Ive been trad for 8 years and am in process of buying all the gear. I will get round my jobs faster without the risk of serious injury, and as a bonus will earn considerably more wonga!
Hot Pure Water convinced me after 3 previous demos
When everything else is going up in price, i can tell my customers instead of price rise, they will be getting the frames cleaned as well as the glass for the same money! only takes one slip on the ladder to ruin your life. and being self employed we will get bugger all help from government!
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see the thing is simon they need all this information to giv you a proper quote!!
you cant just say im a window cleaner ok well here is a price wha if your jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings.....my point being the same has van insurance many wont even be covered has they have not informed of there modficaion or in your case what methods are being used and at what height.
Ronnie, let me please clarify what Public Liability Insurance is:
It is insurance to indemnify a person(s) against damage to 3rd parties.
Think of it as 3rd party fire and theft car insurance. You hit another car...the other car gets his car repaired on your insurance. Your car is isn't covered because you've only insured against damage to other peoples cars.
Jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings is clearly suicide and would not be covered by any insurance company ever!
The insurance companies are not really fussed what methods you clean with (wfp or trad), they're not fussed at what height you work at and they're certainly not fussed if you kill yourself, because they're not covering you personally. They have one concern:
You injure somebody as a result of your work, thus the £2.5m cover.
Imagine this. You fall off your ladder and onto Mr jones who is coming out of his front door on the way to work. You break his back and he can never work again. He WAS earning £200k a year and as such sends his 2 kids to private school, has a large mortgage and loans on his 3 cars. He could finance all this because of his £200k salary. BUT, because the window cleaner has left him in a wheelchair for life and unable to work he can't afford all this...he's 35 and has 25 years of work life left.
25 years @ £200k = £5,000,000
And on top of that his lawyer would sue for loss of quality of life and pain and suffering.
At this point if you were only insured for £2.5m you might consider jumping off a 18 storey window ;D
Trust me Axa are not bothered about Simon Knight breaking a pane of glass!
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see the thing is simon they need all this information to giv you a proper quote!!
you cant just say im a window cleaner ok well here is a price wha if your jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings.....my point being the same has van insurance many wont even be covered has they have not informed of there modficaion or in your case what methods are being used and at what height.
Ronnie, let me please clarify what Public Liability Insurance is:
It is insurance to indemnify a person(s) against damage to 3rd parties.
Think of it as 3rd party fire and theft car insurance. You hit another car...the other car gets his car repaired on your insurance. Your car is isn't covered because you've only insured against damage to other peoples cars.
Jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings is clearly suicide and would not be covered by any insurance company ever!
The insurance companies are not really fussed what methods you clean with (wfp or trad), they're not fussed at what height you work at and they're certainly not fussed if you kill yourself, because they're not covering you personally. They have one concern:
You injure somebody as a result of your work, thus the £2.5m cover.
Imagine this. You fall off your ladder and onto Mr jones who is coming out of his front door on the way to work. You break his back and he can never work again. He WAS earning £200k a year and as such sends his 2 kids to private school, has a large mortgage and loans on his 3 cars. He could finance all this because of his £200k salary. BUT, because the window cleaner has left him in a wheelchair for life and unable to work he can't afford all this...he's 35 and has 25 years of work life left.
25 years @ £200k = £5,000,000
And on top of that his lawyer would sue for loss of quality of life and pain and suffering.
At this point if you were only insured for £2.5m you might consider jumping off a 18 storey window ;D
Trust me Axa are not bothered about Simon Knight breaking a pane of glass!
I think he is talking about abseiling mate!!
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I try my best to get a perfect result everytime but it just ain't gonna happen, get inside the house when the windows are dry and something will show up.
Maybe it's just me, as these "I always get a 100% perfect clean everytime" seem to nail it.
Then again, either they are partially sighted/ have low standards/ or just exaggerate ;D
Thankfully most customers have got other things to worry about in life than minutely examining each and every window you've cleaned ;D
I agree with you John, that's exactly how I find it too. I don't get complaints either. Maybe I'm too fussy, but what may well be acceptable to my customers is sometimes unacceptable to me.
There is no way I would get back on the ladders though.
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see the thing is simon they need all this information to giv you a proper quote!!
you cant just say im a window cleaner ok well here is a price wha if your jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings.....my point being the same has van insurance many wont even be covered has they have not informed of there modficaion or in your case what methods are being used and at what height.
Ronnie, let me please clarify what Public Liability Insurance is:
It is insurance to indemnify a person(s) against damage to 3rd parties.
Think of it as 3rd party fire and theft car insurance. You hit another car...the other car gets his car repaired on your insurance. Your car is isn't covered because you've only insured against damage to other peoples cars.
Jumping off the side of 18 storey buildings is clearly suicide and would not be covered by any insurance company ever!
The insurance companies are not really fussed what methods you clean with (wfp or trad), they're not fussed at what height you work at and they're certainly not fussed if you kill yourself, because they're not covering you personally. They have one concern:
You injure somebody as a result of your work, thus the £2.5m cover.
Imagine this. You fall off your ladder and onto Mr jones who is coming out of his front door on the way to work. You break his back and he can never work again. He WAS earning £200k a year and as such sends his 2 kids to private school, has a large mortgage and loans on his 3 cars. He could finance all this because of his £200k salary. BUT, because the window cleaner has left him in a wheelchair for life and unable to work he can't afford all this...he's 35 and has 25 years of work life left.
25 years @ £200k = £5,000,000
And on top of that his lawyer would sue for loss of quality of life and pain and suffering.
At this point if you were only insured for £2.5m you might consider jumping off a 18 storey window ;D
Trust me Axa are not bothered about Simon Knight breaking a pane of glass!
I think he is talking about abseiling mate!!
Doesn't matter if you abseil, sea-sail or go to the sales: YOU don't count. 3rd party is precisely that: What the insurance companies liability is should you damage property and/or persons whilst doing your job.
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there is ore risk to Property or 3ed party if the methods you use have more risks think about it, you dont need to explain what Public Liablity is to me thanks for your intrest though
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well according to you it doesnt matter and i guess you know better than an insurance team leader?
according to you all sole traders without employees will be paying the same price wether they absail sea sail or go to the sales......im intresting ;)
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Q What does a public liability insurance policy cover?
A That really depends on the type of policy you take out. All public liability policies provide cover for damage to property belonging to a third party and personal injury sustained by a third party following your negligence. However most policies for window cleaners exclude damage to glass or anything else you may clean. Most policies also restrict the maximum height you can work at to 15m and restrict the premises you work on to houses, office, shops and hotels. Any work you carry out at other premises will be excluded.
from the insurers guide on the allied site...
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The same applies with fly poop in the summmer you think its gone then when the windows dries it re appears , why can,t some one put an ad on on the side of brush that can make those stubborn marks go away ie some type of non abrasive pad.
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Q What does a public liability insurance policy cover?
Most policies also restrict the maximum height you can work at to 15m and restrict the premises you work on to houses, office, shops and hotels. Any work you carry out at other premises will be excluded.
15m? That's 45ft. I don't know any trad guys who'll go that high.
Houses, office, shops and hotels...think that covers it for 99.99% of window cleaners.
Sorry Ronnie what point are you trying to make?
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The same applies with fly poop in the summmer you think its gone then when the windows dries it re appears , why can,t some one put an ad on on the side of brush that can make those stubborn marks go away ie some type of non abrasive pad.
I have made a special WFP pad by jetting a stanley paint pad and sticking a non scratch scouring pad on it.
I wish I had taken it with me the other day.
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seems there is alot of doubt with wfp in the first 6 months yes, but not so much now, Yes i agree it ain't 100% everytime but can any window cleaner guarantee 100% perfection with trad NO bird poo is dificult to shift at times and u can't shift it totally everytime but on certain ones were i have struggled i think custys give me the benifit of the doubt as i am not on extension roof where roof damage is possible with trad , Also i have 5 million pl ins people will try and sue you for anything thesse days you need to really well covered i feel since going wfp i am providing a more professional business i have stepped up my game since converting
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saying all insurances are the same no matter what method is bonkers
Its like saying car insurance is the same because its all driving, yet they accept that certain age groups and power of vehicles are a greater risk
Surely if you abseil, or use mewps, etc the risk of 3rd party damage is huge - dropping a ladder could cause damage but nowhere near a cradle being operated wrong, or a cherry picker going through a roof!or an abseiler dropping a squeegee on someone head from the 20 th floor :)
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Finally some one see's what im getting at
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Q What does a public liability insurance policy cover?
Most policies also restrict the maximum height you can work at to 15m and restrict the premises you work on to houses, office, shops and hotels. Any work you carry out at other premises will be excluded.
15m? That's 45ft. I don't know any trad guys who'll go that high.
Houses, office, shops and hotels...think that covers it for 99.99% of window cleaners.
Sorry Ronnie what point are you trying to make?
50ft ;)
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Had a bit of a shock today, I was doing a block of 12 luxury apartments on the seafront.
Quite a few had their usual splashes of seagull muck, I looked out for the affected windows and gave each one a soak prior to washing.
I started on the job scrubbing each pane until the poo had disappeared, gave a good rinse and moved on to the next.
I finished the job at 4 pm, by which time the windows had dried. The sun was shining on the cleaned glass as it sank lower in the sky. the poo had returned, you could still see it on most of the panes.
Ok did them again, as soon as the water hit the glass the marks were invisible again, only to reappear all be it fainter as they dried. I did one pane 5 times before I was satisfied that all traces had gone.
Now on most jobs, I would have already moved on before the glass dried.
I think it's all to easy to delude ourselves about the power of pure water and WFP.
LESSON LEARNED.
yells me dia you are dancing to quick m8, slow down and do the job correctly ;)
also while I am here can you bottle what ever makes you tick as I want some as do many on here, I will give you 50/50 after expense ;D
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pro window u say u run amore professional service since u went WFP but u dont always get the birdmuck off,whip round in half the time and say'that,ll be a tenner please'.sounds really PROFESSIONAL.im not slagging WFP im gona have to try it as most on here use it but a lot of my custys have NEVER EVEN HEARD OF WFP :o :o :oand the results are not great from the honest lads on this forum.BUT u still get away with it most of the time and make more money and are less tired cos ur not climbing ladders a hundred times a day.is that it in a nutshell?right thats it IM GETTING A VAN SYSTEM WITH A BACKPACK and give it 6 months,if a dont like it i can always go back to ladders full time ;D ;D
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pro window u say u run amore professional service since u went WFP but u dont always get the birdmuck off,whip round in half the time and say'that,ll be a tenner please'.sounds really PROFESSIONAL.im not slagging WFP im gona have to try it as most on here use it but a lot of my custys have NEVER EVEN HEARD OF WFP :o :o :oand the results are not great from the honest lads on this forum.BUT u still get away with it most of the time and make more money and are less tired cos ur not climbing ladders a hundred times a day.is that it in a nutshell?right thats it IM GETTING A VAN SYSTEM WITH A BACKPACK and give it 6 months,if a dont like it i can always go back to ladders full time ;D ;D
I'm glad to see that you are getting a van system as well as a backpack because you probably wouldn't get the full benefits of the extra speed from a backpack only. Also, first cleans will be particularly laborious due to the high amount of water needed. I count windows that have already been cleaned trad as first cleans because you will need to treat them that way due to detergent film and if the top frame hasn't been wiped recently.
Good to see that you are giving it six months. Many people find the first couple of cleans a right pain until they adapt to the new way of working. I struggled badly at first but would not want to go back to ladders now.
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saying all insurances are the same no matter what method is bonkers
Its like saying car insurance is the same because its all driving, yet they accept that certain age groups and power of vehicles are a greater risk
Surely if you abseil, or use mewps, etc the risk of 3rd party damage is huge - dropping a ladder could cause damage but nowhere near a cradle being operated wrong, or a cherry picker going through a roof!or an abseiler dropping a squeegee on someone head from the 20 th floor :)
All I can say is that when I asked for insurance I can assure you 100% that I wasn't asked what height I would be working at, what method I use or what kind of buildings I would be working on. Axa work on the assumption that I'm a standard window cleaner doing standard cleans on standard buildings.
Abseiling, cradle work or using a cherry picker is specialist stuff and obviously requires different cover and the insurance company would expect you to reveal this when asking for a quote.
When you insure your house contents for £25k the insurance company doesn't ask you to list the contents. Obviously if out of the £25k £20k of it is your wifes diamond engagement ring then of course you must declare this. And it's the same with window cleaning, unless you tell them otherwise they assume that you're not going to be doing specialist work.
So to repeat myself: I was not asked at what height I would be working.
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assumptions in isurance get people in trouble, i assume you are a normal window cleaner with ladders so i wont had the extra massive premium for your water tank fitted.
my point is insurance companies dont care has they have your money and if you make a claim they will not care that they assumed on anything it is your responsibility to inform them.
Simon it was your ILL EXPLAIN WHAT LIABILITY INSURANCE IS attituide that has got this so far less of the no it all attituide hey trying belittle people........
this is my last post onthe matter has i believe if you thin black is white it is.
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assumptions in isurance get people in trouble, i assume you are a normal window cleaner with ladders so i wont had the extra massive premium for your water tank fitted.
my point is insurance companies dont care has they have your money and if you make a claim they will not care that they assumed on anything it is your responsibility to inform them.
Simon it was your ILL EXPLAIN WHAT LIABILITY INSURANCE IS attituide that has got this so far less of the no it all attituide hey trying belittle people........
this is my last post onthe matter has i believe if you thin black is white it is.
Trad window cleaner, insured for £2.5m, wasn't asked about what height etc.
If my "I'll explain what PL is" comment has got up your nose then I apologise but I really got the impression that you didn't know and was trying to be helpful.
Anyway this is also my last post on the matter.
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Wfp is brill, it has helped me carry on window cleaning because I had got stuck in a rut after 30 yrs.
I was always getting really moody and pixxed of with it all.80% of my work is now wfp,which is mainly large detached houses,but now im much happier,work is alot easier,got more spare time and of course it helps that I earn a bit more :)
Do I trust it,I used to worry, but in 3 yrs I've had one complaint, so I know it does a good enough job and just get on with it.couln't face the thought of going all trad again.
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ANY MORE INSURANCE POSTS WILL BE DELETED FROM THIS THREAD!
As interesting as the insurance debate has been, should anyone wish to continue with it, please start a fresh thread specific to the topic.
Ian
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For problem windows wfp, could it possible to add certain detergents to a barrell of pure water, scrub and then rinse with just pure water?
Or t-bar on a pole, clean windows and the rinse with wfp.
Apart from being time consuming, are there any reasons for these methods not being practical?
I may sound really thick, so go easy on me :P
Gerry.
Anyone ???
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People on here have focused in on bird poo and fly poo...as if every house you come across has every window covered in the stuff!
In the past when I was wholly trad I thought I always did a perfect job....absolutely mint! ;)
Until the customer asks you to clean the insides for them...
You will almost certainly come across the odd mark, kick, line or run that you need to nip back out to get rid of.
Is bird poo really that much of a problem with WFP? Not in my own opinion anyway, most of the time you can see it and get rid of it without any problem at all.
Seagull poo is probably the worst though, and I'll agree you can have real problems with that on upstairs windows.
But again, most window cleaners are not going to have to deal with this day in and day out are they.
Fly poo, spider poo and bee poo, they call all be a pain to get rid of no matter the system you use, especially on frames and sills, but where spiders and there nests and webs are concerned, WFP rules, you can blast them out of every nook and cranny, frames can be cleaned far more intensively with WFP.
With some of the insect marks the only way you will get rid of them, of frames especially is with a lot of elbow grease and a cream cleaner....so sod that for a game of soldiers, trad or WFP I'd never go that far unless the customer was prepared to pay a lot extra for the service.
I do plenty of houses inside and out, ditto with a lot of commercial work, and although the work on the outside may not be inch perfect all the way around, nothing is usually bad enough to stand out, and if it is, just as I would when I found such mistakes when working trad, I go out and pick them up.
And on georgian or leaded work, WFP is far superior, regardless of whether or not the trad window cleaner uses a cut down squeegee or a buffing technique, there will be far more mistakes made on the glass, either with lines from detailing or kicks and squeegee lines, or with smears from buffing...especially if the sun is at the right angle, THEY WILL show up.
Of course on badly oxidised windows, it is far harder to get a spotless finish with WFP, and in those circumstances there are times when the only option to get a really good finish is to use trad, especially on georgian work, but that isn't to say you can't get the work to a readily acceptable standard.
So do I trust WFP?
Well, yes, mostly I do, I'm experienced enough to know when I'm going to have a problem, and usually I'm also skilful enough in most circumstances to do the job to a high standard. When WFP can't hack it I will use my trad gear....but NOT on upstairs work (well, very rarely anyway ::))
Ian
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For problem windows wfp, could it possible to add certain detergents to a barrell of pure water, scrub and then rinse with just pure water?
Or t-bar on a pole, clean windows and the rinse with wfp.
Apart from being time consuming, are there any reasons for these methods not being practical?
I may sound really thick, so go easy on me :P
Gerry.
Anyone ???
It might work OK to use detergent before final brush and rinse but you could be making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself as it is better to keep chemicals away from glass once you start using WFP (the film residue can contaminate the purity and cause spotting). I tend to soak and brush then use a scraper on a trad pole for anything extra stubborn. If something is really bad, I will get the ladder off occasionally and use an abrasive pad on it (white washing up pads that are marked "scratchproof" or similar). You must be careful if you use pads like this as some types can scratch glass. Tucker do a twin hose system where you can "inject" whatever chemical into the line of fire. I think they can only fit onto Tucker poles though (don't grill me on this as I've no experience of them).
Also, Omnipole have a scratch proof pad through which pure water seeps. Again, they are only able to be used on their own powerpoles due to the type of fittings.
Once it becomes necessary to use an abrasive pad on the glass, I feel that it is better to do that bit by hand anyway as you have more control of how hard you press on the glass.
Of course, if all else fails and there is no safe access, I'm not above informing the customer that I am unable to give a fully effective clean on certain panes unless I use a cherry picker at extremely high cost to them (not that I would be allowed to operate one as I've not been trained). On exceptional occasions, for safety's sake, the customer will just have to accept that a perfect job isn't practical.
If something comes off with a t bar on a pole, it ought to come off with pure water really so long as you leave it to soak and keep returning to it for more soaking and scrubbing.
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Thank you Leapstallbuildings :)
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On a similar vein: As well as a full van mount I also have a WCW backpack, converted to a lightweight, sack truck trolley mount system.
On certain occasions, if it is a clean on a property that has not been cleaned for a very long time (several years usually) in one of my 25 litre barrels I'll add a mix of either detergent or Isopropanol (or both) and use that to fill up the backpack, first time clean thoroughly scrubbed and cleaned soapy water (not TOO soapy I'll add!)
Then the girlfriend will be coming along behind me with the van mount system, re-washing and rinsing down.
Takes a lot longer of course, but that can also be a better option than doing a similar job trad, mostly because the frames on such a clean are also utterly filthy too.
Easy enough to rinse out both your backpack and 25l container after you have finished too.
Also easy enough to simply add whatever chemical you might need direct to either a dedicated trolley system or backpack.
Again, very easy to clean and rinse out after use.
If you only have a van mount though, you can just put some soapy water in a bucket, dip in the brush and scrub whatever awkward window needs a bit of an extra clean.
Pinch off the water supply to the brush though otherwise it can be diluted too quickly to be effective.
Ian
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Ian Giles
:) As usual - two sensible/well-informed/helpful posts.
Mike
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i got my backpack last week, been practicising on my own house until i roll it out this week. I origianly did the first clean with a vikin head and noticed a fair few spots all over the windows, some where ok but not up to my usual trad standard. I bought a new ionic head at the FWC show the other day though and fitted it today and then did another clean, well i inspected it once dry and its fantastic, wether this is down to it being the 2nd clean or the new head or simply that im used to it more i dont know, what i do know is that im more confident with it now and im looking forward to it being used on my customers this week. ;D
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I am a window cleaner and will only feel compleat once I us all systems ,Trad WFP and the inside of glass I would feel incompleat of I did not do all systems. I am a professional and will use the system that will do the job best.its my knowlege that they pay for, no trd or a pole. Its skill that does the results.
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Knowledge? Skill? I think you'll find they are paying for your labour.
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to be even more technical they are paying for clean windows :)
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iwas toying with idea of going wfp but i am amazed the amount of work i have picked up with out cavesing from old and new custies alike majority have complained about the standard of work and the price so i have decided to put it on the back boiler for the time being and stick to a time trusted method
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iwas toying with idea of going wfp but i am amazed the amount of work i have picked up with out cavesing from old and new custies alike majority have complained about the standard of work and the price so i have decided to put it on the back boiler for the time being and stick to a time trusted method
They are probably looking for a cheap window cleaner? Or at least one that doesn't appear to earn more money than them?
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i had a custy today who said her friends WC has changed over to WFP recently and her windows were a mess when he,d been!maybe he hadnt a clue or didnt scrub properly.im gona get a van and system next yr tho.all these wfpolers on here cant be wrong!its trial and error and gettin used to a different way of cleaning i think.if i can do away with 80per cent of my ladder work and be slightly faster id be happy.i was struggling a bit today TRAD.get tired of all the climbing at times ::) ::)
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i had a custy today who said her friends WC has changed over to WFP recently and her windows were a mess when he,d been!maybe he hadnt a clue or didnt scrub properly.im gona get a van and system next yr tho.all these wfpolers on here cant be wrong!its trial and error and gettin used to a different way of cleaning i think.if i can do away with 80per cent of my ladder work and be slightly faster id be happy.i was struggling a bit today TRAD.get tired of all the climbing at times ::) ::)
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one old gent when i was talking the benifits quiped its just being bone idle and another way of making a quick buck lazey gits :o
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I'm going to be a bit controversial here, but have been reading the comments about WFP v Traditional. I been window cleaning now for about 4 years. I was made redundant from my post as a Telecomms Engineer and my neighbour had a family relative that was selling a round and decided to give it a go to to keep some cash coming in. After paying him 2 grand for the round I started to panic, when I learnt about WFP. I started initially working from my car, then later bought a van. It took me a good year to get to grips with the new technology. 4 years on, I'm as good as it gets. Firstly in my opinion with the exception of perhaps a tiny minority, traditional cleaning cannot hold a candle to WFP. There are in my opinion a lot of window cleaners, who are just not up to the job and in it mainly for a quick and easy buck. During my time window cleaning, have worked with many WFP and Traditional operators and the standard of cleaning beggars belief. A lot of this is partly due to some of the larger companies employing lads who have no vested interest in what they do, whereas traditionally, window cleaners of old worked solely for themselves. Also WFP does require a high level of technique and experience, combined with the right attitude and approach to how you go about your work. Also the dash for cash I think is a factor, some of the WFP pricing borders on obscene, placing quantity over quality. I try to work to about £25 p/h, but in reality it often drops below this as I wont compromise my standards, but I remind myself what a great way to earn a living and the hospitality I'm shown( hot cuppa, bacon butty, free use of holiday home etc) treat the customer well and most will return in kind.
Do I have an ego? maybe, but in the 4 years I have been cleaning I have not lost a single customer from my original round (Traditional) and nearly all have commented as to the superior standard of work WFP gives to traditional.
Shaun
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Good post! - and much truth!
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I'm going to be a bit controversial here, but have been reading the comments about WFP v Traditional. I been window cleaning now for about 4 years. I was made redundant from my post as a Telecomms Engineer and my neighbour had a family relative that was selling a round and decided to give it a go to to keep some cash coming in. After paying him 2 grand for the round I started to panic, when I learnt about WFP. I started initially working from my car, then later bought a van. It took me a good year to get to grips with the new technology. 4 years on, I'm as good as it gets. Firstly in my opinion with the exception of perhaps a tiny minority, traditional cleaning cannot hold a candle to WFP. There are in my opinion a lot of window cleaners, who are just not up to the job and in it mainly for a quick and easy buck. During my time window cleaning, have worked with many WFP and Traditional operators and the standard of cleaning beggars belief. A lot of this is partly due to some of the larger companies employing lads who have no vested interest in what they do, whereas traditionally, window cleaners of old worked solely for themselves. Also WFP does require a high level of technique and experience, combined with the right attitude and approach to how you go about your work. Also the dash for cash I think is a factor, some of the WFP pricing borders on obscene, placing quantity over quality. I try to work to about £25 p/h, but in reality it often drops below this as I wont compromise my standards, but I remind myself what a great way to earn a living and the hospitality I'm shown( hot cuppa, bacon butty, free use of holiday home etc) treat the customer well and most will return in kind.
Do I have an ego? maybe, but in the 4 years I have been cleaning I have not lost a single customer from my original round (Traditional) and nearly all have commented as to the superior standard of work WFP gives to traditional.
Shaun
Spot on :)
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To clarify, are you saying that any bad reputaion that WFP has is down to poor operators only, and that a good WFP'er can leave better results than a good Trad? ???
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To clarify, are you saying that any bad reputaion that WFP has is down to poor operators only
I believe that to be most of the time. Yes.
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good post shaun but ive been TRAD 15 yrs now and do a good job most of the time!as for WFP bein FAR superior to TRAD?well i cant comment as ive not tryed WFP yet!i do agree some pricing bein quoted on here as a bit eccesssive but it does depend on area as well.im in manchester and earn 20 pound an hour min,sometimes 40!but not hour after hour!and thats trad!WFP i would hope to do 30pound an hour regularly with the added costs and u want to make extra on top or whats the point?safety?yes but more money must be the main motivation for goin WFP!!OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING???
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safety is the only resan i went WFP .and mr giles s spot on ,
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Safety is the only reason I am considering it, but not if it means I leave a worse finish and have a load of hassle with equipment.
Generally speaking, no-one has been able to convince me of that :(
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When I say WFP is superior, it's not just about the window itself. When working of a ladder, there have been many times for instance when getting a good footing has compromised the way I approach cleaning windows, I personally feel that all considered, window ,frame, safety and finish are served better by using WFP as a package. I'm probably contradicting myself here, but a good Trad cleaner often will do a better job than WFP, but that is simply down to the operator not the system itself. As I mentioned earlier, most Trad cleaners worked solely for themselves and were directly responsible for both standards of workmanship and the type of customer they pitched at. Now we have a supermarket scenario developing, where because of the perceived low skill requirements of WFP, and chasing the buck,companies are paying lads £6.50 - £7.50 an hour and because there actually doing the work, seeing first hand how much is charged and also possibly collecting the money, they feel hard done by, which doesn't always lend itself to good motivation. I know this to be true as I have been approached by many lads working for companies and asking me about starting up themselves. Also its probably true that the pot of money available to window cleaners historically, is now because of WFP increasingly going to bosses to fund there lifestyles. For instance there is a company where I work and one of the lads is a good friend of mine, he works on average for 60 - 70 hours per week for about £350 and his boss takes a good 3 or 4 holidays a year (Brazil, Cuba, Mexico etc). Ultimately its down to the individual to make his own choices, and I would respect that but overall it can have a negative effect on the morale of employees and there workmanship. This is the fundamental change in the dynamics of window cleaning in that it affords entrepreneurs the opportunity to make a killing out of the trade, but in turn, can turn the industry into a racket. For me the unique relationship between window cleaner and there customers is paramount.
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The point of the original thread Shaun is that WFP is not always as good as we think it is.
I get very few complaints about WFP, and the ones I do get are never to do with the quality of the clean.
It came as a shock to me that bird muck that I had diligently scrubbed off, reappeared once the windows were dry and could be examined in bright sunlight. This was the case on about four different windows, one pane I returned to five times before it was really clean.
I know there are some slap dash cleaners, I've seen them myself, but I am not one of them.
As said, Ian Giles's post was a fair and honest appraisal, we do the job the best we can in a given time, but it ain't always perfect, no matter what method we use.
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abit of a late reply to responce achap said would not compremise his work and trd guys are only in it for a quick buck .that is boll*** but the same could be said for wfp how offten do you here people say how quick wfp is etc in the last 2 month alone ive picked up more work with out canvasing from a wide range of un happy custys alot out of town areas so to say its the same wfper is slim to say the least . their a good and bad in both :-X
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I trust hot wfp 100%, I trust cold wfp 80%. Trusting certain brushes for certain jobs also ensures confidence in ability to clean windows thoroughly.
Back to using hot water now everyday until spring i had forgotton how much better hot water was than cold, no comparison.