Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: derek west on August 14, 2009, 11:02:55 pm
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if you were to set up a rival to the NCCA, what would you call it.
ACCA
"approved carpet cleaners association" is my idea, anyone else
and while i'm hear dreaming and bored waiting for the misses to lose 9lb in 1 hour, (giving birth for those that don't know she's preggars and 5 days over due)
if you saw the ACCA advertised on television with lets say, dale winton doing the advert, saying how great acca members were and "yarda yarda yarda" posters on bus stops, in the national press etc.....
how much would you pay to join.
theres a lot that pay £200 to join the ncca for not much really so would it be worth £1000 a year?
or what about £1000 membership then £20 a week from then on.
its not a lot of money when you think about the benefits, easier to turn the quotes into a job, harder for the cheap boys to do business, you'd also get referals from the ACCA website, "as advertised on tv" ;)
tv advertising, full back up with insurance etc... discounts from leading distributers on chems, yearly training.
a fair few years ago, some cc's had an idea, an idea to start the NCCA, it did well and prospered, but then somehow lost its way.
why can't a few of us get together and start the ACCA, with fresh new ideas, a none (direct) profit association to rid the uk of cheap cc's, to give trust back to the ordinary housewife in our profession. to make the ACCA a household name like corgi, and cilic bang ;D
friends, carpet cleaners, gentleman, it is time, time to stand together, to make our voices heard. to put carpet cleaners on the map, to share with the world, the pride we have in our work.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
dya know, i make a joke but deep down, i think with some dedication and belief, this could actually work.
200 members, £200,000, plus £16000 a month, and as soon as the tv adverts go out, expect another 200 to join straight away, giving a first annual t/o of around 3 quarters of a million.
a cleaning protocol with minimum standard equipment, yes porti's are welcome.
job satisfaction sheets for the custy.
members 3 strikes and your out.
anyway. bed time, or at least, coffee and a ciggie.
derek "bored pooless" "holmes" "big wad" west
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god i'm bored and i have to stay sober just in case.
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I,ve got a similar idea :-X
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hope it involves dale ;D
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Kim and Aggy ;D
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dale all the way for me.
can't stand kim an aggie, have you seen how they clean leather?
derek
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Nothing wrong with a bar of soap ;D
Remember it well mate, staying sober for the signs when overdue......
Didnt come so went out with the lads for pre-arranged night then it happened at 4am when I'd just got home and to bed! All good though ;)!!
Hopefully its soon my man.
All the best,
Jason.
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"Dirty Beggers!" ;D
Is Dave Holland still doing their carpet cleaning for Kim and Aggie?
Ben
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The NCCA generate more money than just the annual fee there's the training money which is a big earner for those in the know ;)
Shaun
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the ACCA membership includes free annual training and a free xmas party to die for. now who's interested ;D
derek
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It sounds a good idea.....need premises, for training,admin etc. but could be possible. Count me in
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woohooo!
my first member.
that'll be £1000 please ;D
derek
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Put it on my account ;D
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200 members at a grand, for national TV ad campaign, free annual training, Xmas bash of all Xmas bashes :o. etc
Think you might run a little tight on funds & underestimate what is involved in setting something like this up
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200 grand plus 16k a month plus another 200 when the adds come out, no problem elliot. tv advertising isn't that much.
and with £750,000 turnover in the first year, i'm sure that will cover the xmas party on top
maths not your strong point?
derek
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I guess it depends on how much you are hoping to spend on your knees up!
Shaun
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about £749,000 ;D might aswell make it last through january, judging on last jans turnover ;D
derek
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Your suddenly changing the numbers Derek, and why only an extra 200 members once the adds are rolling. An extra 400 would give a cool million plus to play with. Remember your adds would be wasted at 2am on channel 5 when "advertising isn't that much".
Maths, not my strong point? Maybe not, I get number crunchers to do that for me. Only specialise in business projections
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200 members, £200,000, plus £16000 a month, and as soon as the tv adverts go out, expect another 200 to join straight away, giving a first annual t/o of around 3 quarters of a million.
200 grand plus 16k a month plus another 200 when the adds come out, no problem elliot. tv advertising isn't that much.
and with £750,000 turnover in the first year, i'm sure that will cover the xmas party on top
maths not your strong point?
derek
wheres the sudden change in my numbers.
looks realy similar to me.
no wonder you get someone else to crunch your numbers ;D
derek
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Yes Derek, either the Modify button has been brought into action or more likely your initial post was so rambling that I lost concentration half way through ;)
Either way, tell me how are you going to get the initial 200 suckers to part with their grand & how much is that going to cost you. Pessimistic that you will find that sort of number just by announcing it on the forums. Do NCCA members get a discount as they have already had to put their hands in their pockets & shell out for that ??? ;)
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i think my initial post was so rambling is the answer to the first question, i didn't touch the modify button and
youve just answered the second question yourself, where am i gonna get 200 members from, or as you call them, suckers ;D
can't believe your actually taking this thread seriously, all though your lack of concentration in reading the initial thread, and therefore not realising i was just bored and passing the time might have something to do with it. or maybe not ;D
just a pipe dream lad, take a chill pill, actually take a dozen ;D
unbelievable ;D
derek
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Oh dear. Did you really believe that I take your posts seriously :o
Will preface any future post on your threads with "Derek, I'm not taking you seriously", to clarify ;)
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
derek
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ACCA has already been used, it is one of the main accounting bodies in the UK, Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, think they might be a bit pxxxed off if someone nicked their initials.
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okay
T.A.C.C.A ;D
what about
Federation Of Carpeteers
or F.O.C ;D
Carpeteers Union National Trust. ;D
Truckmounters Independant Trust
getting de ja vou, think we've done these gags before ;D
derek
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200 members equals 200 points of view.
You will have to elect CEO and a board etc. A lot of the general members wont agree with anything that you do at all because you are just wrong and they are allways right!
Like Socialism, its a great idea but doesnt work.
And also I, like a lot of guys on here have had a Franchise and the concept is similar, the troops know better than the Officer, but when they get the Bosses job its a lot different from up there making decisions that can change peoples financial lives.
I will be watching with interest. Oh and you could put the head office in Leicester as its more or less in the centre of the country.
Murky
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things just got interesting.
watch this space.
derek
ps... i'm now looking for business minded people to come on board with ideas and thoughts , email me if interested.
derek@affordablecleaners.co.uk
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Good luck to you derek :)
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the new logo ;D
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websites
www.tacca.co.uk and www.tacca.org.uk
have now been secured
derek
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Getting to close to the Truckmounters logo Derek. Can envisage legal proceedings impending ;)
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eek!!!!!
whats the trucmounters logo, can't remember it, its been a while.
don't wanna go down that road again :o
apologies if it is simon and glynn.
derek
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You know Simon, his relations and litigation :-X
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pop the logo up paul, tis paul innit?
derek
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what do the letters stand for?
if the T stands for what I think it might, next question is - are you excluding portable users?
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Joe
The 'T' stands for 'The'. Assume the logo stands for " The Afforable Carpet Cleaners Association"
You don't think that Derek won't want to keep full control of this little gold mine ;)
Derek
You can call me what you want. What's in a name ??? But it ain't Paul :)
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The Approved Carpet Cleaners Association
there will be a minimum spec for machinery, but that includes portables, theres quality cleaners out there who have invested heavily in decent machinery, portables, bonnetting systems, truckmounts, we all have one thing in common, putting our customer first.
why should we be out quoted by idiots who get made redundant, get £7000 redundancy money, spend £5000 on a holiday, give a grand to there misses to buy shoes to shut her up, then spend the rest on setting up a cc business, charge 10 quid a carpet, never get asked back and give us hard working professionals a bad name, no wonder only 10% of householders have there carpets cleaned in britain, its not cos they don't want too, its cos once bitten, twice shy. tacca, allthough only a pipe dream can change these custies minds, it will convince them there is good honest cleaners out there,if we join together, invest together we can educate the custies together.
derek
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Derek , your thinking is not on its own whether it be random boredom.
It really damns me off with the lack of effort from the ncca as long as they line the pockets of the boys they like then hay hoo damn the guys with young families that really need the extra leads .
PUSH PUSH Com on luv me beers getting warm , mm mm beer !!
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ive recieved gestured financial backing. not sure if they were serious or not but its changed my outlook from a wonder to a.... at least i should look more into it.
i need people with ideas who are interested in taking this to the next level. ive got backing from one on here and am looking for 4 more.
all though this is not serious at present, its certainly not a joke anymore.
theres only really mr elliot who is dissing the idea and i presume thats cos he doesn't like me, i can live with that. but i'm starting to think we can do something or at least discuss it to another level.
derek
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Now you have mail :)
You need doubters to make things happen, I thrive off negativity, cos there's no better feeling than proving someone wrong ;D
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Absolutely correct Colin. Only here to keep a reality check on it.
Wanting Derek to prove me wrong so that I can then join up ;)
Derek
"theres only really mr elliot who is dissing the idea and i presume thats cos he doesn't like me"......
We've never met Derek, so how can I not like you? ???
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Derek
Please tell me this is a windup. You have been cleaning carpets for like 5 minutes. You have a family to feed and not much spare cash, stop twotting about and clean some more carpets instead.
Sorry to be so negative. ::)
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youve never met hitler, so are you sitting on the fence with him mr elliot. ;D
sorry mike, it was a wind up but got a call today that changed my mind. ;) 5 mins? time flies when your having fun ;D
derek
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I'm only 2 minutes behind you Derek ;D I'm a Carpet Cleaning Sprog ;D
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Seriously mate sounds like a diversion that whilst tempting will take your focus away. Let someone else in a better position carry the burden.
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Derek
The question of liking or disliking someone is a seperate issue from whether you agree or disagree with some of their points of view :)
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your not wrong mike, if i could find someone i would. you offering? ;)
derek
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My ex would be up for the job, she loves taking money off people, then telling them what to do.
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Mike that was my ex too ;D
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Yeah, she got around a bit as well. ;D
EDIT as in joking it could be the same person, not your ex was a bit wayward. :-[
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This Idea is as old as The Forums if not older
I joined one on Ebay once
You had to have two years experience been on training Courses etc
Guy who thought of disapeared after 4 weeks.
It was Free to join
i believe some people have formed Truckmounters Carpet Cleaners
Someone came up with the idea of us all contributing say £1000 and advertising on TV
Then you have the Guys who create Web Sites and Sell Leads
Green cleaners eco cleaners Splash Dash Inc Dry Carpet Cleaners
Miricle Carpet Cleaners Etc
Yes if you have nothing to do you can form a CLUB call it what you like and be President
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or you can just sit there, join the free ones and expect miracles.
derek
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Takes a lot to create and manage an association do you have it in you Derek? oh and can I have a ticket for the knees up?
Shaun
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not sure i have what it takes on my own shaun, but i know a man who has. ;)
he who dares!
derek
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I've seen a lot of changes throughout life and I've learnt this..... No one seems to like it :P
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Tres bon Rodney
Shaun
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or you can just sit there, join the free ones and expect miracles.
derek
It had the makings of a Good badge Organization.
Well known Cleaners joined and had a Spread across Uk
I did not just sit there but it was the Guy on Ebays Idea
Like others
He could Talk The Talk but could not Walk the Walk
I would not join anything that did not have a Two year Trade Experience Rule
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ian
surely the clue "free" had failure written all over it.
i'd like to make one thing clear for all NCCA members, i'm not having a go at your organisation, maybe this post might be a wake up call,
if they could promise household recognition of there name i would be willing to pay a grand and £20 a week to join, it makes sense. it makes it too expensive for the splash and dashers (lets face it, there equipment and estate car don't add up to the tacca membership fee) and my business would prosper, and if they introduced a minimum 2 year rule, i'd sit and wait til the day i could join. not long, only another 8 months or so. in fact ian, all though slightly flawed, it is a good rule. and one that tacca may consider. i should be just elligible by time mr winton signs on the dotted line.
i'm getting the feeling that my newness is having a negative effect on this subject, shame cos i'm not new to business, just carpet cleaning, i really could do with some big name backing on this. i certainly could not get this going on my own. any takers? or better still, any NCCA board members wanna chat.
derek
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I would not join anything that did not have a Two year Trade Experience Rule
Good point! You wouldn't want to have "Muppets" with little experience joining would you?
I can't help thinking that the NCCA could double it's numbers almost over night, if only they upped the anti! (Advertising, press releases etc....) But this has been discussed before and the answer was " Join in, stand up and be counted" But you have to pay hard earned cash to join up and I doubt very much if new blood would ever be counted! Maybe not until the 5th-6th-7th year of membership? Who knows?
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Would you really need to hit the TV to start with?... Womens glossy's could run a Drama/Story/Ad Campaign, you know, "My house ruined by "Splash & Dashers"- Wish I'd Gone and Hired a Proper Carpet Cleaner"
With a little bit of imagination, a certain amount of courage and a good bit of cash being put in the right areas, anything's possible!
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Perhaps they don't want to? newbies coming in looking to get TRAINED and pay good money for it and the TRAINERS get paid also.
Shaun
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I think you might find someones already a few steps ahead of you. I've been harping on about training to a recognised standard ( from novice to advanced ) for some time as I believe the introduction of NVQ type training is inevitable. It's gradually becoming a "requirement" in all service industries and trades.
What anyone considering an association with the obvious objectives should consider is the fact that there are long established organisations already within the cleaning industry delivering NVQ s and higher and have been doing so for many years.
It would be a simple matter to include carpet and upholstery cleaning. Hard surface cleaning / maintenance is already covered.
When NVQs become mandatory training organisations will require to become acredited training providers at some cost and existing assessors will require to take further training to qualify them in newly introduced sectors.
The worst bit is the cost of training will have to be borne by those undertaking the training and it will be monitored by a " commission " which will charge large fees from the people who employ the operators.
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100 percent behind you derek, how refreshing it is to have someone speak their mind and not be afraid of the naysayers and doubters :P
You like me and many others have invested a lot of money and time into our respective businesses and because we are "newbies" in lets be honest, something which comes absolutely no where near a "trade" there are so called established wasters who are so quick to pounce on different ideas.
Derek 100% class!!!
Ryan (newbie)
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As it's not clear what Derek's intention / thoughts really are how can you be 100% behind him. He said he's taking the p and if he's not .................he's got a lot to consider.
We live in a world of " instant experts " where lives and businesses are screwed up by thoughtless wrongthinking " new kids on the block " who IMAGINE they have all the answers.
What happens frequently is a new organisation sets up with lots of banner waving and enthusiasm, the disillusioned change horses and after a short time their money has gone and aggro replaces enthusiasm.
I know exactly what Derek has in mind and the only people who will benefit will be the advertisers.
Enthusiasm is great but there's no shortage of it already ............
What 's against this concept from the start is..........DIFFERENCES OF OPINION if you can overcome that you MIGHT have SOME success, but it will be very limited in this industry where everyone wants to be THEIR OWN MAN
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If Derek is just taking the rise, so what? He has at least raised a valid issue.
In it's plainest simplest way, the idiot with a RD undercutting the "Serious" carpet cleaner and giving each and every one of us a "Bad name" needs to be warned about. Awareness to our invaluable customers is needed and unfortunately (or not) the advertiser is going to rake the money in....
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i've never said i was taking the "p".
ive put these ideas across before in previous posts, what i did say was i was bored so decided to start a trhread on it. yes i wasn't serious but after talking to someone i respect very much in the industry, i decided to look into it further.
robert your point about nvq and training is a valid one and things like this have to be discussed and looked into.
but its pointless until i can get you guys on board, i'm not asking anyone to dust the cobwebs off there wallets and start writing a cheque, all i'm asking at the moment, is, if an organisation could give recognition to our industry, and when i say recognition, i mean recognised by 30% 40% of the general public then would you be interested, i know i would.
i'll be the first to admit i can't do all this on my own, but if i can get the ball rolling then i'll have done my bit. and if i can help it grow then even better, this is not a new idea by any means, i'm not claiming i thought it up, all i'm trying to do is rally the troops so to speak.
its not a new concept and its been tried before and failed, fine, but does that mean that it will fail again. theres a massive database of cleaners out there and if its attacked and done in the right order it can and would work. you could even get recognition from members databases, for instance
hi mrs jones, we cleaned your carpets last year, hope your happy with the results, we have now been accepted by the T.A.C.C.A. and then go on to explain all about, its an excuse to get in touch with your clients and also bragg about how youve been accepted, couple that with national press advertising and good old dale winton on the tele and it wouldn't take long to get the word out. ive got so many ideas to push this forward, but i need advice from guys like you bob, and all the other top guys on here,
yes critisysm is welcome but i'd prefer constructive critisysm.
derek
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Ok
You can't spell criticism ;D ;D
Steve
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everyone will encourage you and tell you what a great idea it is but when it comes time to put their hands in their pockets their support will all disappear. no one will pay a grand.
carpet cleaners love to encourage other people to waste thier time & spend thier money.
if this idea needs other carpet cleaners to spend money it will never happen.
don't consider this as criticism its fact
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Mike, I take it you're not a member of the NCCA then?
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Well you'd need a training schedule for all members and then there would be the directors and office staff a dedicated phone line, training facilities and the 'mission statement'
Shaun
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I'm going to put my pennies worth in on this subject.
The biggest organisation for window cleaners is called FWC (Federation of Window Cleaners).
Some years ago they lost their way on all fronts, and on the back of that numerous window cleaners got together (including myself) to create the very thing that window cleaners wanted APWC (Association of Professional Window Cleaners).
Oh there was loads and loads of support for this up until the moment the thing went live. We had 2 major players in the industry involved too but come the day we said membership was based on certain criteria and the cost was around the £100 per year region, getting people to join up was literally the p-ss in the wind scenario.
Amazingly the membership cost included an insurance policy (specially arranged) that would cover death and injury and loss of earnings, this would have cost easily 3 times the cost of membership if bought by the individual outside the APWC.
I won't go into all the details of benefits but this year the APWC was wound up due to lack of support.
On the positive side at least the FWC got the required kick up the backside and started to sort itself out, albeit membership of that organisation is drying up week by week.
Sadly whilst the trade wether it be window cleaning or carpet cleaning is unregulated then other than a handful of dedicated people, membership is going to be very limited and at £1,000 is for sure a non starter.
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Derek
You're a " rolling stone " and I wonder what your next idea will be. You've had I think, a reasonable 1st year but with a pretty big investment which will take some time to fully re coup.
At the moment you appear to be searching, searching, for ??????????????????
Why don't you concentrate on building on your 1st year experiences or you might find your existing business slipping away as you chase shadows.
Just my observations
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robert
i can assure you your observations are wrong.i hit my targets for year one and i'm on to hit my target for year 2 within in 9 months, if that is the case i will have to rewrite my forecast for year 3 and 4. yes i know, targets aren't guaranteed but then, nothings guaranteed in life.
neil
thank you for your input, without sounding horrible, i'd love to maybe chat more on possibly where it went wrong. i applaud your attempt.
allthough membership will remain at £1000, (which lets face it, is not even a weeks turnover for most professional carpet cleaners, wasn't fastrack something stupid like £7k when it first came out) i think discounts for early members will be introduced, then once we are up and running and you see the setup and get asked "are you approved by TACCA"?, a thousand pound with all the benefits TACCA will give you, it won't sound so expensive. i just think too cheap and any numptie can join, but faced with a membership dearer than there equipment and estate car will see the riff raff off.
mike
i seriously would pay a grand, as long as i had the guarantees that the organisation were committed to recognition from josaphine bloggs. don't forget there will be a few free perks included like liability and treatment risk insurance included and if we can negotiate, some discounts with major distributors. plus anything else that will make our members remain loyal. TACCA ID cards etc... to be discussed.
shaun
are you in or is it just left to us so called newbies, remember when you were a newbie and you had all these same ideas but nothing came of it cos all the vets said that it wouldn't work ;D
derek
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When you sat Vets do you mean James Herriot? There have been other associations like Proclean (Nick Vousden White and Derek Bolton were involved) also there was a North East association which JK and I think Paul King were in but it eventually folded or something it's hard to keep everyone happy.
It's not a new idea creating another association it's just hard to keep it going and for a grand I'd want a lot back for my money.
Shaun
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its all about customer awareness, that is the key. and thats what will make it worth the membership. everyone moans about the NCCA not known by there customers, yes its nice to say you belong to an organisation but lets face it. you could tell your custy you belong to the JUYTRDSDVGHJKKNBFRTYH and they would not know any different.
customer awareness, thats it. not carpet cleaner awareness. simples.
TACCA is so easy to remember, just need to plant it and promote it. ive got the ideas, ive got backing, i just need the kernow how. and for you vets to remember how the vets in your youth told you it would never work, its abit like the old saying, "i'll never be like my parents" ;D
the vets of today got knocked back in there youth by the vets of yesterday, and now your doing the same to us newbies. its time to think positive, its not gonna cost you ewt. well not yet anyhoo. ;)
derek
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i'd love to maybe chat more on possibly where it went wrong. i applaud your attempt.
Send me an e-mail to neilj96@ntlworld.com with your phone numbers and when I get a chance I'll explain in more detail what people wanted, why, and why it went wrong.
I'm seeing too many simularities here between:
NCCA > TACCA
FWC > APWC
At the end of the day all you risk doing is giving the NCCA a slight kick up the backside to maybe re-evaluate where they've gone wrong.
I'll tell you one trick their missing straight away and that is to contact all those who comment on forums about joining. Has it ever been so easy to find potential members than in this day and age with the internet and names available?
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They don't want members as they are easy to get hold of, no they want to train the newbies it's a way of getting new money.
Shaun
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I can't believe what I'm reading Who in their right mind would call an organisation especially a cleaning organisation something that's bound to be called TACKY.
As Shaun correctly hit on..................the money is in training but only for approved organisations.
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bit beneath you that comment robert, but might as well join in, ya can't beat a bit of childish banter.
who in there right mind would call them selves something that when said, says knicker. ncca
who in there right mind would name a transport company, STD. thats actually true.
actually bob, (negative into a positive time)
"theres nothing tacky about tacca".
i like it, cheers bob, knew you'd come in handy for something ;D
derek
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Derek
Why don't you set up a forum for starters. It's free (ish) and you get a taste of what you will have to put up with. You will build a list, be able to advertise your offering free and with no decenters (just ban them).
You can also get the ego trip and get your cronies as moderators to back you up. This will be good practice for setting up an organisation. 8)
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Now where have I seen that idea before ::) ::)
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Mike ;D
That looks sounds a good idea ;D
OOps has it not been done before ;D
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all ready looked into forums mike and your right it is extremely cheap to set one up. in fact the forum its self is free, just hosting it costs a couple of quid. ;)
derek
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It's going well this is Derek.... The doubters are out in force ::).
With regards to being newbies and all that.... Some of us just want a honest days work and others want to make that £1m and even more. There's nothing wrong with ambition, and it's usually the less ambitious who protest.......
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Fascinating to see the reaction of the new / relatively new people who imagine they're about to change the world and who regard comments from people who've seen it all before as negative and non progressive / unbusinesslike.
There will always be " joiners " who will collect every training programme and join every association that pops up on the expectation that it will help them and or give them instant status.
Sure you can " buy " certification and gain knowledge along the way but all the memberships and courses in the world won't make yopu en expert.
I'm sure many others were like myself when this thread started thinking it was a total wind up especially when started by the resident commedian.
The fact that some posts are from " older " people and seem negative might because they've " walked the walk " for years, gained credibility from the quality of their work and possibly been members of organisations in the past.
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Colin, you seem very keen on the idea, perhaps you should invest in the project Dragon's Den style ie time & money. :)
I believe there are others in the throws of setting up NCCA like alternatives, people who have been in the industry a long time, know anyone worth knowing and have the resources to put into it.
Derek has enthusiasm but I'm really concerned that it's not a bright move for him right now. Call it negativity if you will but if his CC business suffers because of it, will all the 'positive', "go for it Derek!" types be helping him pay the mortgage every month?
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I've got my own idea's of a different nature.... I wouldn't go to Dragons Den with it though, they'd eat me! Wouldn't dare post it on here either..... I'm "Just" a newbie, I was only put on earth last year and have no life experience whatsoever ;D ;D ;D
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Colin ;D ;D ;D
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Ryan
You about tomorrow didnt get a chance to ring today.
BTW youve a mistake on your website. Says youve been cleaning 8 years and started in 2006. Did you write that after a few beers ;)
cheers
Mark
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It not being a doubter
its just past experience,
My advise to Derek is look after your family
Build youre own Carpet Cleaning Company
Onvest the proceeds in the next Venture
If you want Ego Trips there are plent of outlets such as
local organizations charities etc where you get up and go will be welcome.
In the main Carpet Cleaners are individuals
Forums do create a club atmosphere and get togethers are good for the most part, but we paddle are own conoes and look for big retuns when we spend £1000 on any organizations
I would not invest my childrens inheritance in any organization that cannot prove it can deliver ;D ;D ;D
I think for £500 you can join Eco Cleaners Network
Was not the Algerg Stop Network and attempt at it also
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Spot on Ian
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must admit, quite a sensible post ian
still missing the point though. but my heads starting to bleed now and the wall aint looking much better. ;D
i will proceed with caution so don't worry bout me, ive been self employed since 1993, i'll be all right, i promise.
derek
nuff said.
ps... i'll keep the guys that have emailed me up to date on anything interesting, won't be for a while, ive got other issues. but watch that inbox.
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Derek
I am not worried about you
Any Guy who could take 6K a week on markets has my RESPECT
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6k?
only 3k at the peak ian, can't remember saying 6k. best year was 150k, (turnover) not done that for a while though.
derek
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Nice spot Mark ;D but i actually didnt right a word on the website and i have noticed a few spelling mistakes too...have to get that sorted. ;)
Give me a bell whenever.
Ryan
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In the main Carpet Cleaners are individuals
And this is the basis of my concerns. Thousands of individuals (which is what we are) will take some persuading to join via a large amount of money to try and change the world, whilst we can just carry on earning the money we are currently happy with.
I can only comment from past experience with having a foot in both the window cleaning industry and carpet cleaning. Both are similar in that they are individuals. But when the window cleaners got sick of the main player as a representative they failed to back the other alternative when it really mattered. At the time this was going on we were going through the possibility of hose pipe bans which risked closing down hundreds if not thousands of window cleaning businesses. And when this was all over did window cleaners back the new organisation who had meetings with MPs/Water Companies etc, did they heck.
I don't know much about the NCCA which means that the public must know zero about them, and I have no issue against them, but I have to question why they aren't canvassing all the carpet cleaners across the various forums to create a strong organisation that anyone would want to join, on the back of informing the end user (public) that they should use NCCA members.
I fear nothing nothing is going to change, albeit I wish Derick all the best if he wants to change things, but I have it on good authority that something similar is on the cards from a few others players in the carpet cleaning world. If this is the case then it would be far better if those with the ideas to challenge the NCCA all got together and made a concerted joint effort to change things. Afterall no amount of individual MP ever unseated the Prime Minister without grouping together to get the job done.
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Good post neil :)
Think we have to hear what derek has to say and maybe soon we can hear what his starting plan is going to be.
I too hear there are others going down the same line of this so think this might be good as it will give us a choice and also some competition :)
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There will always be someone who thinks.....................THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY and in some cases there will be a better way, but as stated by a few who've seen it all before, what appears to be a BETTER WAY is only better for the person collecting the cash.
The idea of forming GROUPS or CO OPERATIVES or ALLIANCES has been done successfully with organisations who in LARGE VOLUME businesses and the benefits are generally in the PURCHASING POWER although the will usually increase their market share due to increased but COSTLY marketing.
A very prominent feature of such operations is ALWAYS marketing on LOWER PRICES THAN THEIR COMPETITORS to gain an increased market share.
I may be wrong, but can't help thinking this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what carpet cleaners are seeking. They generally want HIGHER CHARGES for their services and I truly believe the only people who will achieve that are the STRONG MINDED INDIVIDUALS who market themselves NOT as part of a group but as " BETTER THAN THE OTHERS "
This leaves the LOWER END of the market of course, but there will never be loyalty or discipline enough from a group of 6 never mind a Nationwide group of 100 or whatever to maintain STANDARDS or even to renew memberships.
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Before we became involved in carpet cleaning I had never heard of the NCCA or IICRC.
I expect the same can be said for the majority of the population.
If I was looking for my carpets cleaned back then I would have called someone either by recommendation or via local advertising.
I truly doubt that membership of an industry body have influenced my decision.
There are plenty of rogue traders displaying logo's and badges that are worthless as far as being able to trust them goes.
Is anyone invloved with quality standards such as ISO? These are surely a better option if you have money to spend. Not sure how they relate to smaller companies though nor am I sure on cost. One thing is certain, a hell of a lot more people, especially professionals will be aware of this award as they will almost certainly have come accross it via their own industry.
Derek, no one will pay £1000 to join a new unproven organisation and even if you had 1000 members would you have any idea what to do with the money. What if people demand refunds when you fail to deliver on promises made.
You could get The Queen to front your membership campaign and you'd still struggle to get new members at a grand a pop!
Free membership is the only way you could have any chance of making a go of such an idea as you would stand out from the other organisations. Funding would have to come from other sources such as voluntary contributions and sponsorship, but chances are way beyond slim at best.
I am sure this is just a wind up bit if you are even nearly serious I would give up now before you waste a hell of a lot of your time.
Their have to be better hobbies out there ::)
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free membership ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
yeah that'll work.
unbelievable.
serious carpet cleaners will pay £1000.
TACCA will focus on one thing and one thing only, customer awareness, this costs money, this is what every decent carpet cleaners wants. to walk into a house knowing the custy knows your good. knows your not gonna leave the carpets soaking, knows the stains won't come back in a week or so. knows you'll be around to do the job again in a years time, knows there getting value for money, theres no risk when choosing TACCA approved.
customer awareness
customer awareness
customer awareness
customer awareness
customer awareness
customer awareness
customer awareness
customer awareness
its not about making money, its about promoting carpet cleaning to the public. its what i want. its what NCCA members want.
its what you guys want, its what all decent honest hard working cc's want. like i said, a grand is nothing, frachisees pay a lot more than that per year and why, because they belong to something thats recognised.
TACCA will happen, but i'll have to find other ways to promote it than on here.
derek
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???
Derek, you've hit your own nail on the head in one word: -
UNBELIEVABLE
::)
Good luck to you, you will need it for sure.
Out of interest, do you have any project management experience, even on a small scale?
Thought not....................
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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When me and Glyn took got the TruckMounter's Forum we made it an association, the TMCCA The Truck Mounted Carpet Cleaners Association.
Granted, we haven't done anything with it but at least our members can say they are members of it. The reason we didn't and haven't pursued it further is because of the costs involved and the sheer amount of time and effort that you have to put into it AND carry on running your business at the same time.
Then you've got the problem of persuading fellow CC's to join and if you are talking £1,000 each, forget it. To charge that kind of money, or even £100 you have to be in a position to provide your members with a benefit right from day one and that is a real tough task.
I certainly wouldn't pay out £1000 to join a new Association and I very much doubt that many others would too. They may well say, 'oh yeah, great idea,' but whoever s left organising it will quickly find that when a bill for £1,000 comes through the door, that initial support will fade away to nothing. Why, because to lay out, or should I say, speculate £1000, most businesses are looking for a return of £5,000 and no association can provide that, especially not a new one.
It will take an awful lot of hard graft to get anything like this going and while you're doing it your business and personal life will suffer.
I don't like the NCCA, it's run by a bunch of self-serving cronies, who are too full of their own importance to get on and actually make a difference. They certainly have the infrastructure to do a whole lot better but don't like being told from the outside what to do. The best thing you can do is join the NCCA and try and change it from within and hopefully come up with something than is currently on offer.
Simon
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I once joined truckmounters ,, lost password ,, when you click on lost password nothing happens... how do I re- join?
£1000 split to monthly payments may work ,, as has been said already , a 4 or 5 :1 return would be needed by most to ensure membership keeps up the payments.
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Listen to Simon, he's been through the loop already.
Anyway others with proper backup and experience are going for it and good luck to them.
As for improving the NCCA from the inside, again, been tried, didn't work. The best way to put a fire under their arses is a bit of serious competition.
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Jason,
I've emails you a new TruckMounters passwords to: jason@disastermastersuk.co.uk
Simon
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Cheers
-
???
Derek, you've hit your own nail on the head in one word: -
UNBELIEVABLE
::)
Good luck to you, you will need it for sure.
Out of interest, do you have any project management experience, even on a small scale?
Thought not....................
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
ian
did you have any carpet cleaning experience before you became a carpet cleaner
thought not.
tut!
no i haven'nt got any project management ex. but i bet theres someone on here who has.
everyones seems to think i'm gonna start this company off and get it up and running and making loads of money.
well your all wrong, my job is simple. to point out where the other organisations have gone wrong.
they are marketting to there customers, instead of there customers customers.
its simple.
all i need is to convince a handful of top men on here and out there that my concept holds water, market the name to the end product and watch the memebers flood in.
hard points, raising the capital cos a lot of you guys are right, it would be impossible to get members before the company was known.
(never said it would be easy) and getting guys on here to believe, TACCA needs experienced guys like roger banking, simon and glynn, business, i know simon was a business adviser befiore he bacame a cc. doug, training, and yes there will be someone who has project managed on here before. rabby and a few others websites, (and the list goes on but obviously my hands are busy at the mo).
who ever we need, i'm sure there either on here or we know someone who will do us a favour.
oh and my strong point, marketting and drive. (and to be honest, if i'm not needed then push me out and i'll still join. i just feel passionate about joining an organisation that puts us first, i wanna walk into a house and the women to say, "you are TACCA registered arn't you?, only the last guy that came wasn't and soaked my carpets through"
then once we can get a good crew together which will cost us a few quid to get together and bang heads. we establish phase 2. getting some bumph knoicked up to show we're serious, then stage 3, put some money together then convince an invester to match us. (ive got someone lined up for that (if he's still on board ;))
stage 4, fckin go for it all guns blazing, the only way to do business.
can you dig it
caaaaaan yooouuuuuuuu diiiiiiggggggg itttttttt (said in a deep voice like off the warriors, top film in the 80's) ;D
all i'm asking is to think about it, after all, this is only an idea but from a slightly different approach.
derek
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Derek
This must be the most elaborate wind up on CIU ever, you really got people going, even me. ;D
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Derek
Good point on the people who we need on board with the names mentioned like roger,simon and glynn etc.
Simon was right about the ncca and its still the same claped out faces with the same old ideas that were thrown around a table over there glass of hot milk and cocoa ;D
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Derek
Nobody can doubt your enthusiasm or the fact that you can get your teeth stuck into a particular issue but I urge you to heed the Simons, Mikes & Robrts advice.
Your aim is not to change the ideas of carpet cleaners but to change the general perception that the general public have towards carpet cleaners. That's tough.
Successive government have spent hundreds of millions trying to change the publics views on issues, mostly with limited effect.
A couple of years ago I did a study on the advertising stratagy of the Coca Cola corporation. Mind boggling figures as to what they spend to convince us that 'It's the real thing' (and in my view it is). But you go stand in a supermarket and watch the percentage of customers who pass it by & pick up a bottle of what is labeled 'Cola'. Why? - probably price comes into it.
I don't have any time for the NCCA but I do appreciate the constraints they are under in terms of what many feel they should be doing. They can be called old foggies - but old foggies often have had the advantage of years of experience not just at cleaning but also having acquired general business acumen.
You can end up wasting alot of your time which should be directed at your own business. You posted above that last year you hit your targets & that this year your annual target should be reached in 9 months. Your forcasts are crap ;) - you have set your targets to low!!! You've got nothing to aim for. Spend your time reaccessing these. Let the rest of us worry about how we get our clients - you worry about just you, your family, & your existing & potential clients
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I recognise the importance of an association that is known but to get the coverage and advertising and constant advertising will take loads of members and loads of money Chemdry don't have that brand recognition and they are being sold for £13 million so it's going to take more than what you may think although the £1000 over 12 months is a great idea.
Shaun
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I think Derek's got more important things to worry about now
Steve
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This idea might have some value in it if it can be initially funded/organised by a major force in the carpet industry. I can think of two that might equally get something back out of it.
As it stands individual carpet cleaners paying £1,000 isn't going to happen.
For £1,000 you could get FSB, Safe Contractor, Check a Trade and a couple more similar accredited memberships.
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For what its worth, I have read this thread with much interest. Nothing can happen overnight. It would take years to prepare for and more years to achieve. I don't believe finance is the issue here.
You need a good team of people around you who collectively possess skills in the different departments of requirement. You also need that team to be realistic enough to understand that something like this will take a long time to achieve. There is no doubt that Dereks thoughts are echoed throughout much of the forum visiting industry although It's important to remember that the forum members make up a small fraction of the total firms actively CCing. You are probably looking at around 15000 firms (at least) operating across the UK.
I admire the individual directors of the NCCA but their direction (as a collective) is seriously flawed and there are a number of reasons for that (which I will not go into).
I'm sure that Charles Darwin got it right and that evolution will conquer in the end.
Joke or not, good post Mr West
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I have looked at joining the NCCA in the past and thought that it was expensive for what you get (A few magazine's and free legal advice ??? ) I'm better off buying Trout & Salmon and asking my mate/customer/solicitor for advice.
So I see it as a waste of money, like YP and RD's and Wonder Wands (Only joking about the Wonder Wand guys, take a chill pill :D)
I would want to be part of something that was on the tele and well known about and well respected. I totally agree with Peter in that it would take time, like most good things in life!
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Colin if you won't pay £200+ for the NCCA why would you pay £1000? it would take a lot of cleaners to subscribe to make a serious campaign on the TV.
The best thing for this industry whether it be TACCA or NCCA is free advertsing ie getting on The One Show or Good Morning or Loose Women (Anthea did it last year)
Shaun
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Shaun.... Because no one's heard of NCCA! How much is it exactly?
TACCA wouldn't need to rely on "Free" publicity! I'd gladly pay NCCA £1k to join if they were well known.....! Fact
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Slide away.
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pete, excellent comments.
someone that finally gets it. not said it would work, not said it wouldn't, but gets it.
thats what its all about, discussion,
could it work? would it work? if theres a problem? could we get round it? could we (as a collective) generate enough interest to rouse the right people.
i've met paul pierce got on really well with him and have the utmost respect for what he's achived in his career. so i hope he's not fallen out with me after this thread. if he's anything like me he'll find a positive in it rather than a negative, and if your reading this paul (and i know you are ;)) dinners on me if ever you fancy a free lunch. (maccies all right ;D) tacca budgets not up there yet. i know, cheeky bar stuard, if ya don't ask ya don't get ;D
maybe i have underestimated informing the whole of the country about tacca, but thats what this thread is all about, problem solving, getting the word out cheaply, pr work, database work, spam, bebo twitter youtube. this all wasn't around when the NCCA was formed. you vets don't quite see the power of the internet like i do.
10 million people have seen a married couple at there wedding, freak out with a crazy dance to "baby's got back"
theres new ways of getting the word out there.
problems are there to be solved, this could work and with the right people backing TACCA, this would work.
colins thread about would you join has made me laugh. all ready its up to about 13 people saying definately not. pathetic answer. if you were asked at school if when you grow up would you consider being a carpet cleaner. bet your answer would of been definately not. don't knock it till youve tried it or at least know all the facts, is that definately not now, but maybe in the future if it takes off?
the next highest is, depends on the price, well thats so hypocritical of this website, every day theres a post about where can i get the cheapest this or the cheapest that, then every day theres another post defending your high prices.
theres only one sensible answer on colins post. "maybe"
right, i'm off to change a nappy.
derek
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Sorry was going to post something stupid....instead Simon i have a truck mount can i join ;D
Ryan
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Derek
How about a web site than at least for starters ???
Its going to have to start somewhere isnt it.
Maybe as you said with the power of the net it will be different and make a base for it to get of the ground.
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Already done here in oz. ICAN.
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OK - I will ask the question
what does ICAN stand for?
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OK - I will ask the question
what does ICAN stand for?
I'll take a guess that 'independant' and 'carpet' are two of the letters.
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the a and the n has to be amber nectre ;D
derek
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At the end of the day the current carpet cleaning "Associations" seem to do bugger all in getting the word out to Mr & Mrs Public.
If this was to get of the ground it would be run by Carpet cleaners for Carpet cleaners.....what could be better than pulling together all our resources and getting the word out to potential customers?
What about a cooperative? and i don't mean the supermarket....could this be run as a coop, setting standards and arranging training etc?
-
what does ICAN stand for?
It's just occured to me that it doesn't stand for anything, it's actually....
I CAN clean it ;D
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Have any of you enthusiasts ever been a member of a commitee at any level ? have you ever worked as part of a team, have you ever been in a position where you've had to work in a situation where the majority won the vote ?
All of the carpet cleaners I've come across are fiercely INDEPENDENT which makes them difficult to deal with COLLECTIVELY.
Incidentally the organisation you're so unhappy about has announced something of interest for those who are looking for a STANDARD.
The PAS86 developed by the NCCA and BSI in association with others within the cleaning industry is set to become the accepted Code of Practice for Carpet Cleaning Technicians.
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only if we lie down and let it bob.
derek
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Who asked them to ?
Steve
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More training ? I like it ! who will be doing the training? same old suspects?
Art for arts sake, money for god's sake.
Shaun
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6 people deciding a code of practise for 15000 cleaners - a bit arrogant if you ask me.
Steve
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another expence for the faithful
and funds to replace the fallen
derek
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Art for arts sake, money for god's sake.
Shaun
I'll give you my 10cc :)
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Have any of you enthusiasts ever been a member of a commitee at any level ? have you ever worked as part of a team, have you ever been in a position where you've had to work in a situation where the majority won the vote ?
I think most of us could answer.... Yes to that question! ::)
One commitee I was a member of "Cockermouth First Responders" had it's doubters, "L" bent on stopping us because they weren't seeing the whole picture. I couldn't understand why they were making such a song and dance! We were trained to deal with mainly cardiac problem patients as the ambulance usually arrived well outside of the "8 Minute Window"!
But after we saved a few lives our position and support became stronger... Sometimes Robert, you have to "Suck it and see!" (Pardon the expression)
And if the NCCA are stirring up because they've heard the jungle drums, maybe Derek has achieved more than you give him credit for!
Just a thought :)
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They might end up shooting themselves in the foot( with ruber bullets) ;D
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I have to say I'm amazed at some of what's being posted. Do any of you think the NCCA people and I'm not one of them take this seriously.
You have a novice just into his second year in the industry on an ego trip. I recollect Derek replying to posts with " advice " a couple of months into start up and chasing shadows ever since.
I'm no " doubter " Colin I've been involved in two previous groups who attempted to achieve a National Identity but eventually gave up due to the APATHY of the people whose lives they sought to improve.
That is your biggest enemy in a business situation or any situation which depends on " member involvement " Only a handful will stay the course and the majority will sit on the fence. At the end of the first year the majority will fail to renew..................
The energy spent on this would be better spent on seeking marketing and training from professional trainers / marketers.
The only problem is.............when the Trade put on such programmes they don't get the support due to APATHY. This has got worse over the years and caused many suppliers to pullout of what used to be annual shows.
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a novice ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
we clean fckin carpets ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
you so crack me up with some of your comments bob.
derek
note to self, 20 years minimum before you know what your doing derek, this is carpet cleaning, not p1ss easy rocket science. ;D
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Heres a chance then for anyone who wants to quiz the NCCA - I assume someone from them will be in attendance
(moderators - if this post is going to offend the host of this forum please accept my apologies and delete).
NCCA are holding a Roadshow on Tuesday 22nd Sept at Reman Sports & Social Club,
Shrewsbury SY1 4JD.
9.00am Registration
9.30am New development in products and vacuum technology - Host Von Schrader
11.00am The expert approach to carpet care specialist know how, products and back up - Woolsafe Organisation
12.00 - 1.30pm lunch - time for a natter (to NCCA reps there)?
1.30 pm The problem with spot & stain removal on Leather - LTT
2.30pm finish
Members £25 (inc vat)
Non Members £35 (inc vat)
Price includes lunch and refreshments.
Download booking form from
http://www.ncca.co.uk/ncca_news.htm#techroadshow
or call 0116 2719550
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So Robert, if Derek had 10 years carpet cleaning under his belt, would your opinion change?
We all have to start somewhere... Incidently, I started actually carpet cleaning as an employee in 2002, so I suppose I am quite a seasoned C/C ;)
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Well done Joe
There you go guys an opportunity not to be missed . Wonder how many of the snipers will turn up on the day or come up with good excuses for absence.
Like it or not they are currently the best your industry has to offer so get along and find out just what they have / have failed to do to improve your industry.
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I'm at Altec that day on a course.... I was thinking of joining the NCCA at one stage, think I'll put the money towards my own marketting as you suggested Robert :-*
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Hi Guys
Joe why on earth would a post about the NCCA upset the owners or moderators of this site ?
There must have been thousands over the years ::)
Cheers
Doug
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It all boils down to this-
What's in it for me?
You can go on about contributing and being a part of etc etc but the reason there is no interest is that most cleaners believe there's nothing for them worth the effort or price.
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Colin
Probably and yes we all have to start somewhere but why attack an organisation that has credibility within the industry rather than join it and see if you can change it from within?
Incidentally I know exactly what's going on in Dereks head.
Decided to delete the rest of my response
Just read the Alltec training day post and agree with your comments after all it's YOUR BUSINESS and in spite of some criticism you will only get positive vibes from the people you meet there.
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Hi Guys
Joe why on earth would a post about the NCCA upset the owners or moderators of this site ?
There must have been thousands over the years ::)
Cheers
Doug
Simply because there have been points raised in the last 12 months about advertising, and I just didnt know where I stood with this post, but do appreciate having the ability to discuss matters openly on this forum, so didnt want to upset anyone.
So if its ok .... then its ok. :)
Joe
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Its good that we can mention things like the NCCA, it seems more relaxed rules on hear now, you can even mention CCDO, long may it last.
Andrew
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bob
you know nothing about me, youve never met me, you just make your own judgements based upon my posts. you make out like your some wise old owl.
old! yes
an owl! no idea, never seen ya.
wise! ;D ive decided to delete the answer to that bit. ;D
"i've been cleaning carpets for 20 years so anyone who hasn't cleaned longer can't give me advice"
"you've only been cleaning for a year so what do you know"
"ITS CARPET CLEANING"
2 days training and your halfway there.
six months under your belt and your 90% there
the last 10 % you pick up when you come across it, and yes that could take decades but it won'y stop ya.
bob
stop kidding yourself, you clean carpets for a grand a week. 2 grand if your half clever, 500 quid if your not. but thats it.
unbelievable
derek
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Not wanting to agree with Robert LOL, but what I think he's saying is most carpet cleaners are probably of the opinion that they are not going to be led by some upstart who has just started c cleaning.
Again this belief may seem silly to you but to them they will be damned if they're going to take any notice of you. :-\
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Time for a cold shower everyone.
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Joe
didnt know you cared ;D Long as you dont forget to scrub my back ;D
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I was once a member of the NCCA, but only for as long as it took me to realise that it was nothing more than a club run by a bunch of cloth-eared muppets who run it as if it were there personal plaything, which is why they are so reluctant to change and innovate and become more in tune with their members aspirations because they will only ever change their way, based on their ideas and not those of the minions they are supposed to represent.
If the truth be told, the only reason anyone is a member of the NCCA is for what they get out of it.
Simon
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Well said Simon - and it's a view shared by a huge number of carpet cleaners.
Steve
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OK. Have resisted for too long. Derek, give me a call. Have a very important job for you if you want to take it on. No point pretending any more but please (everyone) don't insult my/our intelligence by asking to me/us to discuss this publicly but if anyone else wants to help we are 2 years in and there is still plenty to do.
Pete
07816 276290
pete@oakleafcc.co.uk
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Pete,
There you go. You're doing the very thing we are all complaining about. Clearly you've thought up a scheme and rather than discuss it with us want to keep it secret until you're ready to launch it upon us. I dare say it's not entirely unconnected to your Yell scheme.
What we want is something WE want, not something you think we want.
If you've got an idea to take things forward, then why not discuss it openly and give the people you will ultimately rely on to make it successful as say in how it works. It can't just be your idea, it needs to be all of our ideas.
Simon
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Derek
Id try and see how far you can go with your idea still dont give up...
Competition ;)
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Hi Simon
Its got nothing tp do with Yell and there are many people involved already (some you would find very surprising). It's just not ready to go public thats all for many obvious reasons that a fella of your intelligence will no doubt work out. We don't share many views but we do share one and it's probably the most important one (ie the most common theme on this thread). The mechanics are still being fofrmulated but if you want to get involved then please ring me and we can discuss.
I can't begin to tell you the work that has gone into this already but there is still much to do so those that want to help and genuinely believe in something to make some reall changes then please get in touch. This is where we find out if those voices talking mean what they say (and before you say it is not about extracting money there is far more to it than that)
The best example I can give you is if you read between the lines of Keith Robertsons article in the recent Cleaning Matters magazine. There are huge contractors out there (ISS, Ecoclean etc) that are landing big CC jobs and sending there own people with 100psi Numatics to do the job. And this is just the Commercial side of things. What about the public??????? They need to be spoken to and this is one thing I know you agree with Simon (and please don't ask how we do that on here, call me and offer to help)
I realise all this has been tried before but that does not perturb me. Look at all the doubters of the other thing thatt J and I did, exactly the same, granted that was much simpler but look at it now
Pete
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I'm no " doubter " Colin I've been involved in two previous groups who attempted to achieve a National Identity but eventually gave up due to the APATHY of the people whose lives they sought to improve.
At the risk of repeating myself, this is exactly what happened when there was only one main player in the Window Cleaning industry.
Along we came to offer an alterative....."great" everyone said......first year membership was good and then came the "what are you going to do for ME"
Trying to get it across that undoing 60 years of some old timers hanging onto their 'club' wasn't going to happen over night, and with that membership started to die off.
Everyone wants an organisation for them, moreso for every £100 they pay in they want £200 back out. Just the mentality of the cleaning industry.
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If anybody is going to make a go of it, it's Pete and the strength in depth of well respected and experienced individuals.
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Hi Pete,
I hate to sound like a sourpuss and I don't doubt your sincere intentions.
If you're talking about negotiating national contracts etc to try and challenge the likes of ISS and Ecoclean then there is one huge stumbling block. Contracts like that go to the lowest bidder. Believe it or not lots of facilities and Contracts Managers merely want to tick a box, saying have the carpets been cleaned? Yes. That is why firms like those get away with sending in someone armed with nothing more than a 100psi Karcher Puzzi, because quality isn't the issue, ticking a box is.
This gives you a problem straight away because how can you be the lowest bidder and offer the kind of quality that we all aspire to? You can't and therefore you cannot compete.
I used to have national contracts and know the downfalls first hand, which is why we no longer take that kind of work on. These things often look attractive from afar, but not quite when viewed close up.
But supposing you do get national contract, how can you farm out the work when your members operate vastly different systems ranging from the Karcher Puzzi right up to our Titan 875 with triple RX20 capability, you can't.
You then have to offer a uniform standard with a cleaning specification and that applies to both the commercial and domestic sectors. Offering potential customers a uniform product throughout the country is a real problem because the companies that are willing to pay more than just the lowest bidder often want high standards and that would be deeply problematic given the vastly different machines and skills that will be on offer from potential members.
The people best placed to take on schemes like this are the national franchises, Hydrodynamix etc, but don't for all the reasons outlined above. There may well be huge contracts to be had, but they have to be lucrative too, otherwise people will have little appetite to participate.
For these reasons I don't think a scheme to generate work is the answer, not least because of the complications in setting it up and operating it. Generating interest in members services is a far more attractive proposition and I would urge you to take that route before you waste too much of your time.
Having said that, I would be more than willing to help in any way you think I can.
Simon
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Simon
Take Pete up on his offer and ring him direct - this is not going to be aired on a public forum just yet
Steve
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Hi Guys
There is an awful lot of energy/brain power within the CC industry which if well directed can form the sort of organisation which many want.
It's time to offer, discuss, preach but most of all listen.
Cheers
Doug
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Simon
The subject of National contracts is just a small part of it and certainly not the most important.
As I have said, anyone who feels strongly enough will get in touch.
Pete
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Pete,
Whatever your scheme, I think you are making a fundamental error is saying, 'anyone who feels strongly enough will get in touch.
. Trust me, if you're thinking of starting a nationally based scheme, association, co-operative you will need help and a lot of it and will have to draw on the talents and most of all the time of quite a number of people if you are to have any chance of success.
Reading this topic, no one can fail to see the yearning of fellow CC's for a better association than the current NCCA, but to achieve that whatever you have in mind has to be inclusive and it can't be inclusive if its very making is shrouded in secrecy.
Any commercial venture has to be based and built around its potential market, in this case the carpet cleaning fraternity. If you continue to build what you hope will be a successful venture you must surely need to research the market to find out how many people might join your scheme and if you did that you would also get lots of extra input and ideas from fellow CC's, things you may well not have thought about. By the sounds of it you're not prepared to do that and will, in the fullness of time, launch whatever you have in mind on a take it or leave it basis and that might well doom your efforts to failure.
Why not build something on the basis of a consensus, or is this just to be a money making scheme on behalf of Pete Sweeney Plc, because that is what it looks like, so far at least, but I sincerely hope not?
Simon
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Simon
You are asking for things which as yet i cannot provide. This is not about me as you will soon learn. Please don't try to draw out info which is yet to be secured against criticism.
Sorry if this seems cryptic but I am sure you can understand the reasons for this
Pete
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customer awareness is the only way to go, but as has been stated in this thread, it doesn't come cheap. so the question is how to raise the money to advance to that step.
my answer is a national website, seo'd to fck, generating referals for all tacca members. with a target of 1 referal a week for each and every member (minimum) (easily achieved) it would be worth the subscription fee. on top of that would come large jobs, (not the nationals as simon has pointed out, thats a no go) which would entail multi member cleaning, for instance, hydro dynamix do the multi plex cinema in the trafford centre, worth 12k.
an 0800 number with a manned office for ultra quick referals.
the right website with the right seo could generate 1000's in referals and with the back up to the customer that the cc's are approved with minimum spec equipment and fully insured would definately take tacca from strength to strength.
membership includes all free referals
free treatment risk insurance
free van logo and permission to use tacca on all stationary.
to work with suppliers to get discounts on chems.
plus other stuff i haven't thought of yet
with this generating the money to get us level with the NCCA (only better with our much improved referal scheme) we could then push forward with customer awareness.
nothing could be more rewarding than getting a job because the custy wanted a trusted cc who was a member of an organisation that they had heard of and checked out.
"are you a member of tacca?"
"yes love, if you go to the tacca website and type in my mem number, it will send you all my details"
the NCCA have 500 members, there are 7500 reputable cc's out there. 17500 cleaning companies.
these sort of figures could generate a lot of money, and if its put straight back into "tacca" (or whatever org comes along) rather than lining md's pockets, it can only be good for us, good for our customers and good for the industry.
there
thats my plan of action. not going to happen but thats what i'd do.
apart from the usual suspects, ive had some good feedback on this thread, some positive and a lot negative. but to me, a negative is worth 2 postives.
pete
you'd get a much better responce on here than me, and negative or positive remarks are all good. just go for it, if its been 2 years in the planning then you really need to beta test it. what better place than on here.
ps... if you wanna change your name from "C.?.?.?.?" to tacca, you can have the name. cost ya £6 though ;D
derek
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mm what a debate eh .
either way if a group of folk want to educate the general public and do more to help us gain more it cant be all that bad.
Cant see the negativity in it at all and its confusing to think ppl would want to put the idea down
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Derek
As its still early days for this must say your post has made things a little bit easier to see what the plans our.
The national contracts would be a nightmare to police and its all down to the bottom line at the end of the day.
Am sure there is going to be interest in your venture and i for one am interested :)
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Been reading this thread with interest.
I appreciate what you trying to do derek and i wish you all the best with it. Your a doer not just a thinker and i commend you on that. Although i feel you will struggle like in any industry not jusy cc to satisfy members and it will become more of a headache for you . as trying to get a group of business men/ women to agree and work together in and and create points and action plans etc etc in an un-biased manner is very difficult. (you will find that eventually it will become a very lonely un rewarded task where people pay you a few quid and expect the world ) all will offere there help to start with but bale when it gets to the less interesting tasks involved in an organisation . But hey its your choice.
I do agree with some of the points about the ncca but the one thing that i disagree with is people who are not members or have never been members to start giving there 2 pennies worth.
I am a member and will continue to be a member as its a good selling point. All though the average joe has never heard of them. Not surprised it costs an enormous sum of money to build up public awareness not tens upon hundreds of thousands.
A lot of the reason why perhaps the ncca does not seems to be progressing in some peoples eyes is maybe the lack of contribution to meetings agms etc etc by current members perhaps making this more of an attractive proposition to attend . at the end of the day an organisation can only hear your probs if you contribute thats how progression can be made.
Regards
Rich
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richard
just out of interest, and this is not another dig at the ncca, but how many jobs have you had from there website?
i'm only guessing but i'd say at a push, a handful. surely the way forward for the ncca is improve upon this. if i got my membership fee back in referals in, lets even say 6 months, its worth joining. not only that, but i wouldn't think twice about sticking up for my organisation and be proud of why i joined.
like me, your new to the industry and i have total admiration for how your running your business, you also contribute fantastically to this forum with interesting ideas and views, i aint knocking ya rich, your a top man, but i would never join any organisation that didn't give me something back, whether it be work or the edge over a competitor.
derek
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richard
just out of interest, and this is not another dig at the ncca, but how many jobs have you had from there website?
i'm only guessing but i'd say at a push, a handful. surely the way forward for the ncca is improve upon this. if i got my membership fee back in referals in, lets even say 6 months, its worth joining. not only that, but i wouldn't think twice about sticking up for my organisation and be proud of why i joined.
like me, your new to the industry and i have total admiration for how your running your business, you also contribute fantastically to this forum with interesting ideas and views, i aint knocking ya rich, your a top man, but i would never join any organisation that didn't give me something back, whether it be work or the edge over a competitor.
derek
Derek
answer to your question is 0 buddy direct from the ncca website but have recieved around 20-30 jobs that people have seen my site and approached me on the basis that i am amember of atrade service organisation because either thay have been unhappy with the previous cleaner for one reason or the other . So on that basis i do feel it gets me a return on my membership. i am not saying that being a member makes you a better cleaner because it does not becuse anyone can join once training has been achieved but it is another tool in the deep box of marketting techniques.
Of course the older more established businesss in a more comfortable cruise control position can afford to slate new ideas and methods because they have built up there own comfort zone .
But like with any trade organisation you will always have the old boy network of established experts in the field . and if your idea takes off and we are talking about it in 20 years time beleive me derek it will be no different . not saying experiences heads not mentioning old is a bad thing we can all learn something from these people but i think most people who join an organistion want to sit back and think it is goin to work for them my i dea is make it work for me and use it the fact that you have to have the correct formal training the correct insurance all this can be used to instill confidence in the prospective client and set you above the guys who clean suites for 30 notes .
Good luck with it derek i mean that and thankyou for the words of praise appreciated
regards
Rich
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Although there is a lot of disagreement on this topic any topic that stimulates debate is good as some positives will always emerge.
This forum has provided a phenomenal source of GOOD INFORMATION for not just novices but for everyone in the industry and it's not surprising to find the emergence of an alliance of like minded people.
The IDEAL would be reach out to the consumer with POWERFUL warnings and GUARANTEES of compliance to NATIONAL STANDARDS from members of such an alliance and in doing so win their confidence.
How to do so in an economic and sustainable way might be a greater challenge than can be met, but, with Pete Sweeney and the others (I can only guess who they'd be) there is a good chance of making an impact.
It's easy to raise all of the negatives but I'm sure they will be dealt with in discussions.
I wish you well gentlemen.
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with the power of the internet and viral marketting costing next to nothing, its not as hard as some may think.
derek
ps... ive all ready scripted a 20 second viral video but need some special effects software to make it work, anyone know of any?
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Some good rug doctor stuff on you tube :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KztwOTw4Tis
watch it to the end its well funny
thats not you narrating is it bob? ;D
derek
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PMSL ;D ;D ;D
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Its a classic .
find of 2009
nice touch westy
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Not guilty...........what a muppet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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i think he's funny as fck.
"its got a trigger"
and the 5 mini cheddars saved for later, class. ;D
derek
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Derek no its the 2 finger salute that gets me
watched it twice now
it just gets better with age
a bit like you eh ;)
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OK - I will ask the question
what does ICAN stand for?
Idividual Cleaners Association of Aust & NZ
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are you a member?
are they any good?
if so why?
etc.......raaaa
etc....raaaaa
etc....raaaaaaaa. (yule brinner the king and i, cracking film, ahem... for the ladies)
derek
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Not a member yet, but it seems to be gaining ground.
There's talk of making cc a trade qualifcation here.
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relatively new organisation then?
what are there good points? what makes you want to join?
whats stopping you joining at the mo?
and there week points?
derek
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Westy your like a dog with girl thingy flavored bone
Carpetworx you cant hide from fat wad so just start from the beginning and go into great detail about what you know on the Aussie trade thingy
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i have a thirst for knowledge, nothing wrong with that ricky laaaa.
carpet cleaning is my hobby. ;D lav it.
derek
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membership fee will initially be £100. first 50 only, with a money back gaurantee** including an opt out clause*
business plan has been formulated and looking extremely good. i'm looking for some serious investors to pitch @.
website and seo fees have been costed
tv advertising costs have been ball parked, including dale wintons fee ;D
i will be investing £5000 of my own money. need to raise 20k to get things started.
derek
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i have a thirst for knowledge, nothing wrong with that ricky laaaa.
carpet cleaning is my hobby. ;D lav it.
derek
Not in any way knocking you old guy but i would like to read what he says with great interest.
Cleaning & restoration is my passion ;D and I love the way the NCCA really supports our industry and pushes 4wd the word to the end user with great vigor , found a client that had herd of the NCCA today !
didn know what it ment but he had seen it in the yellow pages on some 1s CC add . they seem to act like politicians , well looked after and smile at the crowds. it seems that a serious amount of folk on and off the forums are starting to sing of the same hymn sheet regards change. its a shame that ppl in that kind of a position do as little as possible to make an IMPACT on the public dom and com .
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Derick,
I have been following this thread with interest, I have not up to this point replied in any way, having read all of the replies a number ot times I can see that their is a quite obvious spit in opinions, thoughts , do,s and dont,s blah blah.
Now for my two penny,s worth.
I admire your determination, and would no way critisize your ambitions and goals and I sincerly hope that you achieve what your are aiming to do, and clearly their are a number of c/c interested in joining you. Good luck.
Now the bit i cant work out, the figures dont to me add up or I am missing some thing completly :-\
Initial costs are going to be expensive, for the basic marketing alone , and an initial fee of around £100 per c/c would imho not get you any were near the funds required, I would hazard a guess that a fair percentage showing an interest would infact retract when push comes to shove, perhaps you have private investors :-\ but some of the tactics you are talking about , tv/ radio/ magazine advertising etc would be an absolute fortune, even for just a one off slot during a programme that nobody watches would be in the 1,000s .
I just cant see it coming together, you may on the other hand prove me and all the other doubters completly wrong. Lets hope so , i dont want to see any member losing hard earned money.
As they say on dragons den!!! I,m out.
geoff.
ps. for now ;) :D
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Derek I could make a call to a an old freind of mine that runs a well known double glazing company running adds at prime time to get you some factual costings .
actually he rung 5 days ago pitching me
Cause i make good Coffee ;D ;D
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cheers ricky but its all sorted, got me figures from a london company , i know one of the guys there, all inclusive for a 6 to 8 week run.
derek
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geoff
problem 1) £1000 joining fee is far too much, youve all pointed that out to me and i except my initial naivity.
problem 2) £100 joining fee is far to low to offer the members national advertising, i accept that and have always known that
problems are there to be solved
i believe i have solved these problems. correction, i have solved these problem and need brainy people to help me dot the T's and cross the I's ;D
this can work.
derek
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i will be seeing peter jones on tuesday at 1 pm, i'll let you know how it goes.
derek
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Whos peter Jone then ?
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Dragon's Den guy you know the one that looks like a long streak of urine.
Shaun
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The same streak of urine that's a multi millionaire? Bargain!
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Seems the NCCA will be purchasing premises for more hands on training.
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/a0eeda79#/a0eeda79/59
Andrew
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Hi Andrew, that's a good quality publication.
I've signed up to their mailing list.
Thanks for the link.
Ian
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That format looks familiar, didnt that used to be called Cleaning Matters or similar, I used to get that but then it stopped coming.
It was sponsored I think by one of the big hand wipe paper people, Diversey or similar. Thing was they were allways going on that paper towels were better than electric hand dryers. All that mess allover toilet floors oh yeh.
Murky
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You could be right Murky, as i dont get cleaning matters sent online anymore, and looks similar.
Andrew
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Derek just type in Individual cleaners in google and all will be revealed.
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cheers carpet worx
theres one thing missing off there enrolment form!
"equipment used"
this is the problem with all cleaning organisations, they just want your money. so anyone can join.
TACCA will be different, sorry, no rug doctors. or low performing portables.
i need to establish a cut off point and need help with that. i do believe portables can do a good job, but there needs to be minimum spec to get the water out. its a toughy!
derek
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Talking machine spec is one thing Derek.
For starters, I could suggest a minimum of 2 vac motors (2 stage of 3 stage?)
and a pump min 135psi.
That would get volume of operators - cause all businesses need an income.
However, if you specify 3 - 3 stage vac motors, you will get potential performance machine but not a big volume of operators.
HOWEVER the operator will decide how efficient the machine will work. How does one determne the efficiency of the operator?
I used to work a twin motor 50psi machine.
Got good results but was useless at the end of a day cause I worked hard to get the result I wanted and the client deserved. (never again by the way).
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cheers for that input joe, much appreciated.
must admit, the figure in mind was 135 psi and a 2 stage vac, but as ive not used one i'm not really the one to say.
personally i think 135psi has got to be bare minimum, i very rarely clean lower than 250 and on a manky carpet (with my ltd knowledge of portables) i would find it extremely hard to flush everything out on 135psi.
"discuss" :)
derek
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Jo, obvioulsy, though I dare say highly unlikely, a C/C could own a Titan and do a poor job. I say highly unlikely as you must be doing something right to be able to afford a Titan, or indeed most TM's!
Perhaps Derek and the team at TACCA would request proof of insurances, qualifications and equally as important, testimonials from the applicants satisfied clients, domestic and commercial.
I also dare say that the NCCA won't have RD users as they have stringent rules at becoming a member, and only someone serious about their work would jump through the hoops that NCCA put there. And someone that uses a RD can't really be serious about their work and wouldn't join an assosiation that costs more than their machine to join ;D
How did your meeting with Peter Jones go Derek?
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meeting?
you mean job, went really well, i cleaned peters 04 x type jag, leather seats front and back, came up a treat. he was well happy with the results, i then asked him if he was any relation to "the" peter jones off dragons den but unfortunately he wasn't. ;D
seriuously! , he really was called peter jones, ask clinton, he phoned me while i was getting a brew off him. ;D
derek
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I used to work for a Michael Jackson many "moons" ago (Do you see what I did there? Moon.... Michael J..... Ah forget it!!!!)
He had one eye and a limp!!!! ;D
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i would say the original MJ is quite limp right now, and once the worms get there teeth into him, he'll probably have one eye as well. ;D
so 2 vac and 135psi should do a good job and leaves carpets reasonably dry, (minimum spec), plus some form of training cert?
i'll have a think about it, allthough help is needed. but i won't hold my breathe.
derek
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westy , you need to use these porties b4 you can pass judgement on there usefulness , ive used a 135psi with a 2x3 stage vac and its noting at like a TM , not in the same league
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rickster
hence the words "help is needed"
derek
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Of course a 2 x 3 stage, 135psi is nothing like a TM, but Derek is looking for ideas as to what is a minimum standard of machine is acceptable. He has always said the TACCA was not only for TMers.
As for "you need to have used one before you can pass comment" - disagree.
Maybe Lord Sainsbury (or whoever is the chairman these days) has not stacked shelves and worked the tills (but maybe he has) but that doesnt mean to say he cant make a policy decision on what should be done or what tills to buy - he has managers who advise him and consult with him.
I still reckon the problem will be on approving an operator.
If its certification - well I got a NCCA certificate, but most of you reckon they given with tops of cornflake boxes, and I been on a number of one day courses but got no certificates handed out.
And of course getting a certificate only means you either attended or you were good on that day.
So back to one of the grumbles against the NCCA - they dont check on the quality of the operator.
How do you police it? who does it? and at what cost?
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Simple Joe,
you monitor via checks and revoke membership without refund if non compliannt to what should be the the most basic of rules.
Easy mistake to spot on current governing
Hope your well fella
Pete
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TACCA has a 3 strikes and your out policy, again, no refund. any complaints from customers will be investigated, if its a fundamental error by the tacca approved cleaner, he gets a strike. this still needs to be sorted out, but in theory should run okay.
derek
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tm or nowt, seriously its not even a competition.
and for all the old guard who have staggered on
with portables....why???? put up or shut up, carpet cleaning
is not a trade its common sense, and the guy with the biggest
machine wins....END OF STORY. ( haulage contractors used horse
and cart back in the day, not many of them now on the motorways,
sorry lanes,highways,tracks,paths etc)
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Ah Ryan, but would you have said that BEFORE you got your truck mount.
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I think Training and length of time as a Carpet Cleaner (2 years) is the important criteria and the willingnes to abide by a code of Ethics
If you want members with less than two years experience they will be probationary members
Glad you droped £1000 joining fee I might now be prepared to invest my childrens inheritance but I doubt if you will agree my condition above so therefore I'm still out
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ian
thats a fair point, i took your 2 year thing on board but struggled to see how it could work, i was worried about new comers and how that would effect them. certainly not setting out to alienate new comers, just want them to be serious about what there doing,certainly something to work at.
i like the probationary thing. or maybe gold silver and bronze membership let me have a few beers and see what i can come up with, then i'll run it by ya.
derek
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Used nothing but a porty 2x3 vacs + 135 psi for just over 2 years , then used a TM for 3 days NO COMPARISON what so ever . its foolish IMO to belive a porty can do as good a job as a TM
Joe What has stacking shelfs got to do with cleaning and restoration ?
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If you want to have Truckmounters only
I believe there is already an organization for that.
Derek as you know my spelling is crap,
I was going to suggest Associate Member for less than two years
I think this kind of thing is quite common in other organizations
I know Dave L when he was on here believed there should be diffrent grades of qualifications to newcomers to the industry
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definately NOT truckmounters only, theres some good porties out there who can do just as good a job. i believe in good hard working porty users, i also believe theres a place for the buffers. even vlm as long as they don't make silly claims and are realistic as to what they can do.
tacca is all about being approved, wearing the badge and being proud of wearing it. knowing your good at what you do, and giving the customer confidence to choose a tacca registered member. its all about educating the public and taking the worry out of choosing a cc.
there will be a complaints form to download off the site for custies, these will be investigated, makes it more doable than just checking up on every member.
3 strikes and your out. that doesn't mean 3 mistakes and your out, i believe if you make a mistake and put it right then theres no need to worry.
we all make mistakes, but what seperates the cowboys from the pro's is how we deal with those mistakes. tacca'a code of conduct will take this into account.
its all slowly taking shape, like i said, just need some help to dot the I's and cross the T's.
cheers for your input ian. much appreciated and definately taken on board.
TACCA will happen,
derek
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Who has the authority to determine how effective a system is, particularly when one system will outperform another in one environment, but in another scenario the opposite will happen.
What's a silly claim ?
Many T/M users in the US and Canada have gone over to VLM after trying out the latest machines and chemicals.
Educating the public ::) ::)
This country has spent millions on informing the public ( for the past 50 years ) of the dangers to their health in SMOKING and ALCOHOL abuse. Yet we have one of the highest lung cancer rates in the world and are looked upon as pathetic due to the way many British abuse alcohol !
As I've always said..............Ideals are fine in the developing years but realism sets in as we get older and learn what's necessary rather than how we'd like it to be.
Think you will find Pete and co live in the Real World and whatever plans are under development will reflect this.
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bob, bob , bob.
so you won't be joining, i get it mate. i'm not even gonna try and convince you.
derek
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New comers should be encouraged to join, there the ones that need the most help as you well know Derek, i don't think you have to worry about hack cleaners joining, they just would'nt pay, no matter how much it is.
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by hack cleaners, i'm guessing you mean cowboys?
your right, hack cleaners won't join, not to worried about that at first, the whole point is to educate the public as to the difference between a hack cleaner and a pro, other than the price. hence tacca.
you ever thought of moving to good old blighty martin?
derek