Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Bryan_Dolby on March 31, 2009, 10:19:54 pm
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I would introduce myself
Bryan Dolby
49
Window cleaning since1983
Employed staff but sole trader last 8 years
WFP 6 years mainly commercial
FWC
Member 1985
Committee 16 years
Chairman FWC 14 years
Qualifications
NVQ level 2 in window cleaning
Passport to safety (iosh)
Risk management (iosh)
General certificate(nebosh)
Tutor for the FWC (iosh)
Hope fully next NVQ assement
What is your training and window cleaning experience
Bryan
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bryan which one of your qualifications would you say has helped you the most i.e when approaching commercial which one stands out that makes them pick you over someone else say?
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Richy
NVQ
passport to Safety
It is very hard to say but all the new customers said the whole package
I have to admit it does all go together but as taken a couple of years to get it all
If i had to give any advise to window cleaners start getting your training portfolio together now
Tosh
Member FWC
Bryan
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training- 2 days helping out a mate who was working on the dole
qualifications- driving licence
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David Morris
41 years of age
Window Cleaner since 1998
Employ 3 full time staff and the odd sub contractor
Qualifications and History
Safecontractor Accredited
Chas Accredited
BWCA WFP Course
FED of Window Cleaners Accredited
I.O.S.H Managing Safely course
Former Chairman of a Trade Association 2006 -2009
All staff and owners CRB Checked
£5 million Insurance as Standard
Gained 2 stone in 2 years through employing
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Window cleaning since 1987 both domestic and commercial.
Have employed but turned into a headache so will be sticking to sole trader.
Now mainly domestics but i do have a few contract jobs also.
My qualifications are the most important one's you need Experience better than any NVQ.
And no i'm never planning on doing any of these course's no need to for me i'm happy as i am.
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What is your training and window cleaning experience
Having a ladder slip under me was probably my best training and window cleaning experience.
It just happened the once; and won't happen again.
NVQs also aren't thought of as much as a qualification by the general public. I've an NVQ 3 in supervisory management and it's not worth the paper it's written on. You can get an NVQ 2 in administration just by having knowledge of a keyboard and being able to file stuff.
NVQs are rubbish!
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Tosh
A window cleaning NVQ isnt rubbish, at the moment it is the only window cleaning qualification available.
Like anything else it shows your professionalism, in my opinion training will pay off handsomely.
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how much training do you need to clean windows then?? it's basically just common sense.
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Tosh
A window cleaning NVQ isnt rubbish, at the moment it is the only window cleaning qualification available.
Like anything else it shows your professionalism, in my opinion training will pay off handsomely.
If an NVQ 2 in window cleaning is the best qualification we can get; then that's sad. But I'm not sure that's correct; not really.
But with regards to NVQs they've endured nearly two decades of criticism on philosophic and practical grounds.
You will find that most people who've been through a proper training process, whether that be educational or practicle and who're in a managerial post will laugh at an NVQ.
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Hello Bryan,
I have a few years experience, but have had no formal training, apart from buy applicator and squeegee and do own windows a few times.
Became proficient then went WFP, had one days accompaniment training with experienced W/C.
Take pride in the quality of my work, and get many compliments from customers, so I guess im fairly good.
Would love to see this trade become more professional in general, but for domestic work I don't see how it can.
You cant stop the scrotes and the dole boys, or the temporarily out of work plasterers,etc,etc, from getting in there when times are hard, and underpricing. Ie, this job is always up for highjacking.
Most Customers at Domestic level couldnt give a monkeys as to what qualifications you have, some just want cheap [dont care if I loose these types}.
Like Tosh said NVQ's are held in high regard.
How would the FED be of benefit to me ? I guess it has some clout in the larger Commercial type work.
I Am a member of the Guild.
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Why did you say I proved the point, Ewan?
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NVQ's are useless. for window cleaning, really, it's scraping the barrell time. people laugh when i tell them there is an NVQ in window cleaning. literally roll about laughing, its a big joke.
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NVQ's are useless. for window cleaning, really, it's scraping the barrell time. people laugh when i tell them there is an NVQ in window cleaning. literally roll about laughing, its a big joke.
I wouldn't say it's that funny!
:-[
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NVQ's are useless. for window cleaning, really, it's scraping the barrell time. people laugh when i tell them there is an NVQ in window cleaning. literally roll about laughing, its a big joke.
I wouldn't say it's that funny!
:-[
but it allmost is
old stan would have been proud of us ::)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a8/Hilda_stan.jpg/180px-Hilda_stan.jpg)
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NVQ's are useless. for window cleaning, really, it's scraping the barrell time. people laugh when i tell them there is an NVQ in window cleaning. literally roll about laughing, its a big joke.
I wouldn't say it's that funny!
:-[
but it allmost is
old stan would have been proud of us ::)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a8/Hilda_stan.jpg/180px-Hilda_stan.jpg)
Hmmm; it's late and Wor Lass is getting cross; but I can see Dave's point of view; if an NVQ 2 is the best we've got for a qualification; no matter how sad that is; maybe we should support it.
Are we really all Stan Ogdens?
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I wouldn't admit having a nvq in window cleaning, my mates would take the p mercilessly!
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I wouldn't admit having a nvq in window cleaning, my mates would take the p mercilessly!
Snap!!!
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Igorance is bliss !!!!!!!!
I am currently on my IOSH managing safely course, and I am starting to see my responsibility as an employer and it is getting very scary.
Things it has taught me.
I have to teach my staff.
1/ Manual Handling.
2/ How to use a ladder
3/How to work safely
4/How To use a POle
5 Give talks on the importance of washing there hands
6/Give them first Aid Training
7/ Lone working
This is just a few things i am responsible for, I also have to record the above and to cover my back I have to get them to sign they have recieved the above.
An nvq will go a long way to help me fulfil my responsibility, it gives me the proof that i have assessed my staff in there job.
It is so easy to be blinkered, but there is a million and one things that can go wrong window cleaning
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Dave 43 years old
Window Cleaning off and on 26 years
mgwc
"o" level art and a GCSE! ;D
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Dave 43 years old
Window Cleaning off and on 26 years
mgwc
"o" level art and a GCSE! ;D
What is this?
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Master Guild of Window Cleaners Malc ;)
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Master Guild of Window Cleaners Malc ;)
Ahhh! I though it was Malc Gold Window Cleaning!
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Igorance is bliss !!!!!!!!
I am currently on my IOSH managing safely course, and I am starting to see my responsibility as an employer and it is getting very scary.
Things it has taught me.
I have to teach my staff.
1/ Manual Handling.
2/ How to use a ladder
3/How to work safely
4/How To use a POle
5 Give talks on the importance of washing there hands
6/Give them first Aid Training
7/ Lone working
This is just a few things i am responsible for, I also have to record the above and to cover my back I have to get them to sign they have recieved the above.
An nvq will go a long way to help me fulfil my responsibility, it gives me the proof that i have assessed my staff in there job.
It is so easy to be blinkered, but there is a million and one things that can go wrong window cleaning
Dave,
Will teaching your employees really cover your back?
What you're doing is called 'in house training', and it's commonly known the the standard of this type of training; even if it is basic stuff; greatly varies.
If you really want to cover your back, shouldn't your employees attend the course?
I'm guessing (and I'm no expert) that should one of your employees, fall from a ladder for example, they could argue that the training they received was substandard because it was just a talk from their boss; not a qualified instructor.
Just my thoughts.
Added later:
There's more to teaching people stuff than meets the eye; I've done a Methods of Instruction Course; it lasted two weeks and culminated into haveing to give two seperate two hour lessons; one practical and one instructional.
Maybe you should attend one of these courses?
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Tosh - A lot is about perception by the custy.
In quoting for commercial and especially local government work you get lots of "elfnsafety" etc. And if you and another co. are close in the quoting process then these qualifications "show" the custy that you are serious about things and don't take them lightly.
E.g. you and I quote to clean a local primary school and our price is the same but say you can show (and I can't) that you've taken a safety course and are CRB checked and you provide risk assessments and NVQ2 window cleaning (ok not the last one) you will have more chance of winning the contract despite your winning smile.
See?
Now Mrs. Gozewell in her house on the Bulwark council estate will be simply won over by my winsome words because she don't give a flying (insert correct word) about all that bleedin' palaver!
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Tosh - A lot is about perception by the custy.
In quoting for commercial and especially local government work you get lots of "elfnsafety" etc. And if you and another co. are close in the quoting process then these qualifications "show" the custy that you are serious about things and don't take them lightly.
E.g. you and I quote to clean a local primary school and our price is the same but say you can show (and I can't) that you've taken a safety course and are CRB checked and you provide risk assessments and NVQ2 window cleaning (ok not the last one) you will have more chance of winning the contract despite your winning smile.
See?
Now Mrs. Gozewell in her house on the Bulwark council estate will be simply won over by my winsome words because she don't give a flying (insert correct word) about all that bleedin' palaver!
That is a very good point.
I could only imagine that all this NVQ stuff is any good if people want to get into govt or contract work. I know "elfandsafty" is a huge issue in UK (even the mice wear high vis vests at night) but for the domestic custy type of set up, it's a little "top heavy".
Am I right in thinking that about 90% of the people on here are built on domestic customer base? I have no choice here in Germany if I am VAT registerd, it's automatic and part of the company registration.
I don't want to give the impression that UK is better than here for running a small business in. However, I would like to point out that ANYONE can start a window cleaning business from scratch without a clue and build it up to a successful standard in UK if they really wanted to badly enough.
Maybe that is why some people would like to make it out to be more complicated than it needs to be. I just got the impression that NVQ's are, in the majority of cases, trying to make "a silk purse out of a pigs ear"
On some other forums, as a newbie the first thing I noticed was all the badges and medals and tin foil I saw when I logged on. Felt really humble. Didn't get any pearls of wisdome though.
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Tosh
I am going to send my staff on lots of courses, Tool box talks are essential part of it too.
Training in house is better than no training at all.
Did you know you cant send someone up a ladder until you have shown them how to use it.
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Hi Bryan, hope you don't mind me asking this I was just interested, roughly what is the current membership of the FED, also Dave Morris if you are reading, What was the peak membership number of the APWC. I am not after exact figures just a rough guideline really!
Regards Pete
Ps if you dont wish to disclose that here then feel free to email an answer! wce@sky.com
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Age 64.
Qualifications:
BWCA WFP course (same time as Dave Morris ;))
7 GCE 'O' Level
1 " 'A' "
40 YEARS EXPERIENCE ;D
Initial training: By one of the best commercial companies in London during the late 60's. Trained by professionals who knew exactly what they were talking about and had learned their skills the same way I learned mine.
Interesting thoughts about the perception of qualifications for window cleaners by the general public. When I attended the BWCA course, I happened to mention to some friends that I had been trained in the 'new' methods. When they asked who trained me, I said: "The British Window Cleaning Academy". The reaction was immediate and uncontrollable laughter - nobody actually believed there could be an Academy to teach people to clean windows - the very idea seemed utterly ridiculous in their eyes - how could anybody need to 'go to school' to learn something as simple as cleaning windows?
I never mention it now to any of my domestic customers - it still seems to them to be idiotic that anyone should need to go to an Academy, or even that such a thing should exist.
Commercial, of course, is a whole different situation - I don't bother too much with that.
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29(nearly 30)
been running my business 3 and half years
Employ 2 full time with two vans
Iosh working safely
Safe contractor approved
NVQ in window cleaning(currently being done by all employees)
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I think if you look at the posts ever bodys idea about training is different
I do not think it matters domestic or commercial having a training portfolio can only create more work for ever one who cares to do it
If I wanted to get into the commercial world it would help with some reconised certificates
I would have thought if we all went down the training system which way suited ourselves it could be good for the industry
John
What would you get out of the FWC ,all the details are on the website
Then it is up to you on how you would market it within your buisness
I belive the logo and membership as helped my buisness progress to were it is today
Neil
You should have a email from FWC
WCE
Will find out from head office ,but must admit why you want the numbers or is you are part of this guild
If i was David sorry no can do would be my answer
Are you a member of the FWC?
Was you a member of APWC
Bryan
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i got my svq in window cleaning when it first came out did it with t,moffat&sons .that was 10 years ago. ;) they were they were the first and only company to do it in scotland. ;)
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Bryan
You have beena member here since 2003.......why introduce yourself now ;)?
Are you after more members? Or have you got a slow PC :)
Bob
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ducky
Is that when they used bamboo canes
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Bod
There was some people who did not know who i was in respect to the FWC
Yes the FWC would like some more members
Bryan
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lol no ramsey ladders and unger pole lol ;D
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Thus far it's Been a pleasant and constructive thread, and it must have some value to have obtained so many responces.Sorry to have to come on and lower the tone.
Basicaly this is a load of rubbish, is Bryan Doldby saying he knows more about window cleaning than anybody else? He's been at it for thirty years and he's still a sole trader and still having to go on courses.
No one asked for my opinion, but this is my definition of a failure, and it's aggravated by a smug tone that implies otherwise. This thread is no different to one that braggs about earnings, or swanks about properly bolted down tanks.
Get over yourself Bryan and get a life.
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Slumpbuster
Thats not very nice is it, no wonder some people dont come here.
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ken altobelli 10 yrs window cleaning about 4 yrs self emp as milk man
wfp 7 yrs fallen off laders 1 time passed fwc safety day course sole trader Will not employ
to much hassel milk round tought one thing thats been invaluble how to read people
can spot backword a mile off
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i have to admitt it's not very nice, but this is a self righteous thread and i don't have any qualifications. Even if i did i don't expect they'd include my working methods (very high hot flow, electric reel).
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Slump Buster
Are you not interested to see what makes your competition tick
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i have to admitt it's not very nice, but this is a self righteous thread and i don't have any qualifications. Even if i did i don't expect they'd include my working methods (very high hot flow, electric reel).
indeed
self righteous just about sums it up
its bordering on the " i am a window cleaning technician " or a " optical enhancement specialist "
do we really need to big ourselves up that much ? ? ?
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Ive got
A big new slx pole
A website
A newish toyota van
A great wfp system in my van.
A lovely family
And boy, am I good looking
What about you ;D
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I'm constantly surprised by the many able people on here.If my comment was a bit personal to Bryan then i apologise, he's probably a good old stick, and maybe he was just trying to start a genial thread.
Of course education is good, and someone told me recently that they have joined the fed and are booked in for an iosh (is that right), but this costs money as does a day off. I am a member of the guild where the benefits to my business are immediate with more of a focus on marketing and making my and others peoples business a success without the politics and having to pay huge membership fees to support luminaries.
I would have loved to have gone to the cleaning show also (nec not far) but i am too tight as this is another day off.
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how does the guild help your business out of interest please
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That was an aside and i am trying to stay on topic but i believe the giuld's extroadinary membership rise tells it's own story, window cleaners aren't mugs and the guilds offer is compelling and far better value than anyone else's.
Something else struck me. When i read one post about qualifications i thought, ahh, passed his eleven plus went to grammar school, failed two A levels and became a fiercly proud window cleaner.
In my life some of my failures have taught me the most.
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strange the reactions of some people on here. why worry if someone wants to get a qualification, does it effect you?
the answer could be yes. some people have already said that to have an acreditation has swung a large contract in thier favour. so if your putting foreward a quote package and your up against some one who ticks more boxes than you, you may get over looked.
good luck to anyone who wants to better themselves, you never stop learning.
i got a city and guilds 7307/8 adult teaching qualification, might start my own school of window cleaning
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WCE
Will find out from head office ,but must admit why you want the numbers or is you are part of this guild
If i was David sorry no can do would be my answer
Are you a member of the FWC?
Was you a member of APWC
Bryan
Yes I run the guild with the guild admin AND the members but that was NOT the reason for asking, I was just interested thats all! If you think that by telling us how many members you have or APWC had, it's going to change the guild or how we run it then you are very naive.
As to your question am I a member of the FED the answers no and TBH your response to a simple question just reinforces the reasons why. If you wont even answer a simple question then how am I meant to believe that you wont try to hide other facts from me? I have heard the allegations before that if a member asks a "difficult" question you find a way to kick them out so I guess because I dared to ask this question I wont be welcome anyway.
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Large contracts this, hospitals schools and shopping centres that, if it's in the balance an nyq will swing it your way!
Get real, the nvq guru is still a sole trader after thirty years, what does that tell you.
If you want to go on a course learn sage, or marketing, or bookeeping.
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Large contracts this, hospitals schools and shopping centres that, if it's in the balance an nyq will swing it your way!
Get real, the nvq guru is still a sole trader after thirty years, what does that tell you.
If you want to go on a course learn sage, or marketing, or bookeeping.
funny enough, my daughter wants to go to a stage school on the weekend
she has visions of HSM ;D ;D
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i think youll find he has employed in the past like he said.....amybe he got to the age were he thought life was easier on is own.
slump are you a huge company with lots of commercial work???
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I came away from the trade show with a Comet contract for Cornwall and Plymouth, which my professionalism helped swing, also got lots of good advice off other window cleaners.
Also I re affirmed some of the alliances and contacts i have met over the years.
As for marketing ;)
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Slumbuster and WCE
After reading your posts
This one and the guild
I now understand the replies
Sorry left school
6 CSE
Got dyslexia
Work 4 day week
Bryan
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I expect being the fed chair was a paid position and probably where most of the subs go so possibly didn't need a wc income.
Lots of commercial work?
A right posh outfit wanted me, i quoted £3,200 six times a year, but they said ocs was cheaper by quite a bit, so i didn't get it.
I got out for dinner every other monday (2 for £10, there's four of us and i always pay). Noticed the windows were dirty so now i have them £80 in&out every 8 wks.
That's all i can think of.
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Slumbuster and WCE
After reading your posts
This one and the guild
I now understand the replies
Sorry left school
6 CSE
Got dyslexia
Work 4 day week
Bryan
What Bryan? I asked a simple question that so far both Dave an yourself have avoided answering. As for my comments in the guild post what comments?
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Anyway sorry to have hijacked your thread. I was quite surprised at how many do have qualifications.
It's quite normal to have squables on here so don't take any of it personaly.
If you did want to round yourself out as a person you might consider joining the guild, i'm sure your input would be welcome and it has it's own members board.
You think i'm joking but quite a large sub group do belong to both.
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i now had a quick count 55 members listed in england on the guilds website, not what i call a "large" number
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Bryan
You have beena member here since 2003.......why introduce yourself now ;)?
Are you after more members? Or have you got a slow PC :)
Bob
;D ;D
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Bryan
You have been a member here since 2003.......why introduce yourself now ;)?
Are you after more members? Or have you got a slow PC :)
Bob
;D ;D
oh do a search
the fed seem to have done ok out of its members ( oh and i am sure the members have done ok of of the fed )
unless the posts have disappeared, a little like the renewal forms of people who were members of the fed but decided to question the committee ;)
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i now had a quick count 55 members listed in england on the guilds website, not what i call a "large" number
Thats just in England. We have other members in other countries too you know :)
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sorry my mistake add 21 to that for total membership. again not the "large" number as mentioned. theres 2 1/2 times as many people on line here now
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WCE
What have i got to do with it, the APWC is now history.
It doesnt matter how many members we had, we took members even though we werent actively persueing them.
Also near the end I had to fight them off with a broom stick, i am sure a few here will testify to that fact, when we decided to close but still honour our existing members we still had people trying to join.
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p.s
Its not hard to work out how many members the fed have got. divide the turnover from membership , which is in the accounts just sent out to all members then divide by the average cost of membership, easy.
Also the fed committee do not get paid, apart from expenses for attending meetings and fed business.
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My qualifications
Left school with no O-Levels, i wagged most of the last year of school.
Only tests i passed before window cleaning was driving, car, PSV and Taxi.
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I'm not anything to do with guild admin just an ordinary member gibbo but the quality of the people is superb. All the nice guys, and all the guys who want to get ahead with their business are there.
Because so many have newly started things can be aired there which can't on a more open to anybody forum. It's inevitable that it will grow larger because of it's strategy of afforability and clear benefits, but while it is smaller it's great.
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the courses and assesing would represent another income stream, your sum doesn't account for this.
What is the approx turnover and joining fee?
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The window cleaning industry is changing, if you go back 10 years you would be hard pressed to find anyone using a wfp, the same also applied to H&S.
Yet over the last 5 years, wfp has been the new boom industry and H&S is more paramont on whether you get the job or not.
In the next 5 to 10 years you will find that the window cleaning industry will change even more, there will be more people coming into it with a "Professional Image" this is not to say that they are better cleaners, than you guys who have been cleaning windows for years, but I can guarantee they will be better business men/women than you.
Heath and Safety is not going to go away in fact its going to get tougher, soon you will find it difficult or impossible to get insurance, you will find that every business you now clean for will become aware of their responsibilitys, and they will insist that you are "trained in cleaning windows Safely".
Some of you who mainly target domestic customers, you will not escape either, there is already a demand for window cleaners to be licenced, if his happens then being compliant with Heath & Safety will determine whether you are issued with a licence or not.
11 Plus
7 o levels
4 a levels
OCR Word Processing Part 1 & 2
Heath & Hygiene
NVQ Window cleaning 2 (almost compleated)
31 years cleaning windows
26 years cleaning carpets
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Igorance is bliss !!!!!!!!
I am currently on my IOSH managing safely course, and I am starting to see my responsibility as an employer and it is getting very scary.
Things it has taught me.
I have to teach my staff.
1/ Manual Handling.
2/ How to use a ladder
3/How to work safely
4/How To use a POle
5 Give talks on the importance of washing there hands
6/Give them first Aid Training
7/ Lone working
This is just a few things i am responsible for, I also have to record the above and to cover my back I have to get them to sign they have recieved the above.
An nvq will go a long way to help me fulfil my responsibility, it gives me the proof that i have assessed my staff in there job.
It is so easy to be blinkered, but there is a million and one things that can go wrong window cleaning
I was on the NVQ 2 first day a week or so ago and thats what struck me dave , the level of accountability that lies on an employer, only in the last month a firm have been fined for an employee being left hanging in a harness, although that is good that he didnt fall, he shouldnt of in the first place and should of had self rescue etc its all good stuff that you would find out the bad way if you did not go do the courses, its ok thinking "i only do domestic" but if you are thinking about getting into window cleaning in a big way you need it , so if youre happy plodding on alone dont bother , you will live without it, but if you want to get in to the big world of large commercial work from cradles etc employing and subbing you really should do the courses!!
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my first rule of marketing..
sell the benifits of your own product, not find fault with the others product.
i am not a member of the fed, but i have never heard them slagging others off.
the last time someone went out to slate the fed he started on window talk and then along came a magazine with his name as editor. then he went again and along came another window cleaners organisation. so i think there was an alterior motive there.
so maybe a sugestion promote the guild for its benifits not what you see as the faults of others
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Slumpbuster
The income entry from Membership is just that "Income from membership"
Training is a very tiny part of there income.
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WCE
What have i got to do with it, the APWC is now history.
It doesnt matter how many members we had, we took members even though we werent actively persueing them.
Also near the end I had to fight them off with a broom stick, i am sure a few here will testify to that fact, when we decided to close but still honour our existing members we still had people trying to join.
Still avoiding a simple question.
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i aint avoiding anything
Theres no point to it
werent even my department
If you want the figures to compare to the guild then there is no comparison, you cant compare a virtually free to join club to a bona fida government recognised trade association
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i aint avoiding anything
Theres no point to it
werent even my department
n
Come on Dave, you know you have a rough idea (which is all I wondered). It's a simple question with regard to how many members the APWC had 10? 100? 1000? As I said it doesn't have to be exact. Maybe you are avoiding answering because the Guild has already surpassed the APWC in this area (correct me if I am wrong!). I find it hard to believe you have no idea.
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I am a member of the Guild and I don't want to know how many members the Fed or APWC or any other body that has the best interests of window cleaners at heart.
I run my own sucessful business, I know who my competitors are, but I do not want to have every bit of information on them, I would rather concentrate on making sure my business grows, the same should happen to the Guild.
The guild should forget about what other tradebodys there has been or are, unless its to learn from their mistakes and sucesses.
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I don't know what's more embarrassing? Is it one of my qualifications...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/typing.jpg)
:-[
Or is it an NVQ 2 in window cleaning?
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Sorry about my last post, I thought we were still fighting about NVQs! I see it's moved on to 'whose got the biggest genitals'.
:-[
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Sorry about my last post, I thought we were still fighting about NVQs! I see it's moved on to 'whose got the biggest genitals'.
:-[
oh! that would be me then 8)
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I don't know what's more embarrassing? Is it one of my qualifications...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/typing.jpg)
:-[
Or is it an NVQ 2 in window cleaning?
was that achieved in the field tosh
i can see it now, a solidier in the helmand province engaging the taliban and asking for cover whilst he bangs out a 50 WPM letter ;D ;D
on a serious note, good luck to the personnel in any active area
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WCE
Our turnover from just 5 members far exceeds your £10 per head
Now this is getting silly.
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All of the windowc leaners that want to take window cleaning forward and to escape the stero typical window cleaner should conseider the NVQ and any other training. those that mock i beleive have very little future in the industry and already show single minded lifes and the i know best attituide.
Im sure that will get them far with H&S when they or an employee have an accident
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I honestly dont know what good an NVQ would do for me.
I am honestly open minded, but give me a compeling reason as to why I need an NVQ. Dont tell me its to get insurance, as thats not true, or likely to be true, and I do know as I spent over 20 years in that game.
Im not against training and qualifications, if there is a valid reason or purpose for them, but I do object for paying for a course in window cleaning, when I am perfectly capable of doing it already, if you get my drift.
I dont use ladders, so I dont need ladder safety. What the hell is a course in Working Alone all about?
No disrespect to anyone intended if you've got all these things, but I cant help cynically thinking that this is somebodys "cash cow" somewhere along the line.
Regulations for the sake of regulations, imposed by people with a vested interest in making some additional cash, is what this all smacks of to me.
And by the way, as I previously stated I am all for this Trade becoming more professional. Any suggestions?
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Just picked up 5 M&S stores today, there must be something in all these badges lol
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If your round is mostly residential then any qualifications are really a joke that the customer wouldn't give a jot about.
I can see commercial work requiring all these wonderful accredations and memberships of different bodies. All large commercial companies employ a jobsworth to see all this stuff through within their own jobs, so on it goes with all the contractors.
You and I know it's complete and utter crap but that's the way things are these days.
Personally i'd rather stick to residential work instead of sitting through all the bull and jargon that comes with looking for comercial work.
Just a thought ... has anyone actually failed a windowcleaning NVQ yet?
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Just a thought ... has anyone actually failed a windowcleaning NVQ yet?
you need to be able to write your name and hold a pole
oh its a NVQ Level 2, thats for Level 1
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You do make me laugh some of you.
You are totally clueless ;D
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You do make me laugh some of you.
You are totally clueless ;D
We maybe clueless, but we're happy; and we don't have leadership or management problems; nor do I have all the 'carp' associated with a higher turnover.
I think you're clueless!
Ya boo!
;D
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I admit I haven't read all the replies this post has generated, so let me off if I say something that's already been covered. If I mentioned qualifications (what were they called? NVG or something?) my customers would not only be unimpressed, they'd be non-plussed. If you're commercial contracts maybe, but lots of people can make a very good living working domestics and what they want is clean windows not a bit of paper telling them how you've managed to make the windows clean ;D
Must change my tag line to "Life can be simple if you let it".
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All of the windowc leaners that want to take window cleaning forward and to escape the stero typical window cleaner should conseider the NVQ and any other training. those that mock i beleive have very little future in the industry and already show single minded lifes and the i know best attituide.
Im sure that will get them far with H&S when they or an employee have an accident
So what you're saying Ronnie is I have very little future in this industry? Well that's me put in my place then. Better just throw my tools in the corner and walk away from my business after 20 years.
Let's try and keep this thread realistic.
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Dave, were you a Prefect at school?
Just wondered. ;D
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All of the windowc leaners that want to take window cleaning forward and to escape the stero typical window cleaner should conseider the NVQ and any other training. those that mock i beleive have very little future in the industry and already show single minded lifes and the i know best attituide.
Im sure that will get them far with H&S when they or an employee have an accident
So what you're saying Ronnie is I have very little future in this industry? Well that's me put in my place then. Better just throw my tools in the corner and walk away from my business after 20 years.
Let's try and keep this thread realistic.
Maybe i didnt put that right BUT its changing all the time and if you cant live up to it then........well..........only time will tell
some come on 20 years on what have you achieved???
You do make me laugh some of you.
You are totally clueless ;D
We maybe clueless, but we're happy; and we don't have leadership or management problems; nor do I have all the 'carp' associated with a higher turnover.
I think you're clueless!
Ya boo!
;D
Happy thats why you come on here slating people cause they are trying to move the industry forward and adapt to change.
Happy that if you dont agree you put it down .......you sound really happy
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So Ronnie, how do you know what I've achieved? I own my house and the ground around it, I rarely work longer than 5 hours a day and have a quality of life that some only get on holliday. I have alot of personal contact with over 600 custies and it can't fold overnight. I used to do "big" contract jobs in the 90's and when 2 Commercial custies chop the contract, my turnover would go down nearly 30%. That's stress. I don't come on here and brag about turnover and what I do with my money. To belittle people without knowing anything about them, is stupid to say the least. If you bothered to read my earlier post, you would see what I meant and I stand by that.
If you want to be the Richard Branson of W/Cing then go ahead and knock yourself out. Before you get carried away with highflying business nights in the city, just remember, some guys ain't got a chip on their shoulder over what they do to earn a crust.
This forum, when all is said and done, is "open", for "window cleaners" and businessmen, like yourself.
You always have to be able to see the other side of the coin, you might want to remember that, because window cleaning is a "people business"
Oh and by the way, I built my business in a foreign language. Try that for a game of soldiers.
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Ronnie,
Please don't insinuate I'm 'slagging' anyone; I'm not.
I have made fun of the NVQ; I admit that, but that's my opinion and it's not personal; just my opinion.
It was Dave who called us 'clueless', and if you look that up in a Thesaurus, you'll find it can also mean 'stupid'.
If anyone is doing any 'slagging' it's David!!!
However, I would like to argue the point with you Ronnie, but since 'you've cried to Mummy' about me in the past, I can't.
The Mods have e-mailed me, telling me I can't give you a hard time, making you look stupid and stuff; even if they probably agree with me.
So, Ronnie, my aggresive little friend, there's no need to go crying to the mods again, because I won't reply to you in this post again.
>:( ;D
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Ok listen, sorry to go off the thread atad but didnt Stan Ogden have one leg, and as there was no WFP then, how did hr manage the ladders with Eddie Yeates.
OK come on all you windowcleaners with only one leg! how do you do it?
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Tosh, give is a chance to post me thread man, just cos you can type 50 words per minute lol.
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Tosh, give is a chance to post me thread man, just cos you can type 50 words per minute lol.
Sorry, fella!
I'm on the net book and the keys are really close together, which slows me down a bit, but you're right, I can type fast without looking at the key board. I use all eight fingers and the right thumb (the left thumb isn't used in touch typing) and can do it blind folded.
Unfortunately, when it comes to typing, Ronnie can only use his forehead!
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The reason Tosh can't use his left thumb is, because he's got a sock over it ;D
Dirty little git ;D
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firstly cozy i asked what you had achieved ???
and secondly i can see why the NVQ has no interest to you
Im not bragging read through my post were am i bragging, im making a point that the NVQ and other health saftey certificates are a must if you want to become bigger than a residential window cleaner................prove me wrong
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Tosh dont reply do you think i care what you say......you have showed what you could teach me ;)
and you have reported me to the mods so i call that deuce.
you think im stupid mmmmmmmmmmm well done but iv still achieved more than you in my business in 3 and a half years. ;)
So tosh say and think what you want and im not your friend, i wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy ::)
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Steady on Ronnie, these things don't always have to be taken personally.
The whole point of this forum is to exchange ideas and opinions.
I made mine, and in all honesty I think the obvious answer is that to go big time into large Commercial Work, then qualifications do count, to those making the hiring decisions.
If your business is mainly,or wholly domestic, then qualifications and certificates held matters not one jot, now, or in the foseeable future
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Ronnie,
You don't know what my customer base is. From 600 customers, at least 120 odd are commercial. Petrol station, city centre shops etc. Don't start with H and S, the Germans wrote the dictionary for that.
I've been reading the thread about licencing in England, H & S and licencing aren't even an issue here, the same as VAT. Be happy that you are in UK at the moment. If the European Union pushes hard enough, you will be paying your VAT 3 month in advance, before you have earned it.
Everyone you employ will have social costs of between 22& and 27%. If they go sick, they go on full pay. After six weeks, the Government takes these costs over for you, unless you employ more than 20 people, including admin staff. That's how it is here.
These are a few things that could come your way in the UK, in the next few years. So get ready to build your empire.
In the meantime, I'll stay a "residential window cleaner" and marvel at empires that people like you build.
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thanks cozy ;)
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John i believe when comments are made against me it is personal, the comments havent been of a general basis.
Cozy well done im sure achieveing that in germany is hard work, but do you believe the NVq and other health and saftey courses WONT help a business grow if do make some valid points why you think this and one else that thinks it wont help give valid reasons why they believe this>?????
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Take the time to read my previous posts on the earlier pages. ???
That is a very good point.
I could only imagine that all this NVQ stuff is any good if people want to get into govt or contract work. I know "elfandsafty" is a huge issue in UK (even the mice wear high vis vests at night) but for the domestic custy type of set up, it's a little "top heavy".
Am I right in thinking that about 90% of the people on here are built on domestic customer base? I have no choice here in Germany if I am VAT registerd, it's automatic and part of the company registration.
I don't want to give the impression that UK is better than here for running a small business in. However, I would like to point out that ANYONE can start a window cleaning business from scratch without a clue and build it up to a successful standard in UK if they really wanted to badly enough.
Maybe that is why some people would like to make it out to be more complicated than it needs to be. I just got the impression that NVQ's are, in the majority of cases, trying to make "a silk purse out of a pigs ear"
On some other forums, as a newbie the first thing I noticed was all the badges and medals and tin foil I saw when I logged on. Felt really humble. Didn't get any pearls of wisdome though.
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Cozy i didnt read that and but this come about cause i wrote all that mock have no real future in the window cleaning industry so do you or dont you mock the NVQ???
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scroll up and read my quote....
before I post, I always read the whole thread
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Right i made a comment (not directed at you) about people who are taking the mick out of the NVQ
and you commented a smart ass comment saying "i guess thats me told"
so make up your mind are you or arent you mocking???
cause this is why we are here ???
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I've had enough of answering you, when you can't be bothered to read my posts, or find it difficult to understand the posts I've made.
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Cozy i didnt read that and but this come about cause i wrote all that mock [the NVQ] have no real future in the window cleaning industry so do you or dont you mock the NVQ???
I mock the NVQ and I mock the person who posted this mock of a post. I vote the above the mockiest post of the month.
You may mock me, and you may mock my future in window cleaning, but Wor Lass is mocking me, saying I've got to mock myself in the mocking bath.
Ronnie, I think it's time for your bed, before you get mocked some more.
Ronnie, I also think I love you; will you mock me?
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No 'O' levels, no qualifications - didnt need any, I was the first person in my year to get a job - at 16 I went into the army.
I now have a CSCS card - why - I need it to do site work!!
I have an IPAF - PAL licence - Why - I need it to do elevated works!!
My impression is this. Do I need any other qualifications NO!!. Experience will outshine any qualification and the way that you carry yourself in your every day activities will determine the level of success or failure you achieve in life.
My work ethos is to offer the very best service, to my own exacting standard and I ask myself all the time whether I would pay for my service. I never disappoint myself!!
Here's a little case in point -
Cleaned a one off conservatory roof clean, it had really dirty grey finials, the customer was unable to get them clean, over a period of years. Now I could have washed the conservatory and given the finials a cursory attempt at cleaning but I didnt - I cleaned all of the grime off and brought them back to a very good standard - not perfect but much improved.
Had a phone call yesterday, from a housing association, can I come and clean their head office - they are having an open day tomorrow (Friday). Just got back from 3 days in Bath, chewing gum removal - on a wooden area on Green Park Station.
I asked - How have you got my details, Turns out it was a recommendation from the daughter of the conservatory roof clean. Been this morning and priced it well and they were happy with the work. This company is responsible for 900 properties!!
You can have every qualification in the world but they will never compare with experience, ability and capability.
My commercial works are high level, exacting, national and always different. They couldn't give a shiney s*ite whether I have any qualifications. They only need to know that they will get the work that they are paying for - to their standard and that I am complying with all H & S.
Rob ;D
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Cozy i didnt read that and but this come about cause i wrote all that mock [the NVQ] have no real future in the window cleaning industry so do you or dont you mock the NVQ???
I mock the NVQ and I mock the person who posted this mock of a post. I vote the above the mockiest post of the month.
You may mock me, and you may mock my future in window cleaning, but Wor Lass is mocking me, saying I've got to mock myself in the mocking bath.
Ronnie, I think it's time for your bed, before you get mocked some more.
Ronnie, I also think I love you; will you mock me?
yawn, ::)
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You are being a bit negative and precious ron.
Firstly an nvq is not seen as much as a qaulification, matt has some, and he's the one who took the mick.
Secondly although dave has an nvq he doesn't have a basic grasp of apwc which was once one of the businesses he owned.While he has no idea for the numbers for this now expired orginisation he does know about the fed. He knows for instance that committee work is unpaid.
And thirdly the thread started with someone's name, bryan dolby, it seemed to say this is who i am, who are you? Part of who he is involves the fed, and the fact that he teaches and assess' on these courses which i believe are now mandatory for membership.The implication is that is that if you do not have a qualification that he recognises then you are without value.
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No 'O' levels, no qualifications - didnt need any, I was the first person in my year to get a job - at 16 I went into the army.
I now have a CSCS card - why - I need it to do site work!!
I have an IPAF - PAL licence - Why - I need it to do elevated works!!
My impression is this. Do I need any other qualifications NO!!. Experience will outshine any qualification and the way that you carry yourself in your every day activities will determine the level of success or failure you achieve in life.
My work ethos is to offer the very best service, to my own exacting standard and I ask myself all the time whether I would pay for my service. I never disappoint myself!!
Here's a little case in point -
Cleaned a one off conservatory roof clean, it had really dirty grey finials, the customer was unable to get them clean, over a period of years. Now I could have washed the conservatory and given the finials a cursory attempt at cleaning but I didnt - I cleaned all of the grime off and brought them back to a very good standard - not perfect but much improved.
Had a phone call yesterday, from a housing association, can I come and clean their head office - they are having an open day tomorrow (Friday). Just got back from 3 days in Bath, chewing gum removal - on a wooden area on Green Park Station.
I asked - How have you got my details, Turns out it was a recommendation from the daughter of the conservatory roof clean. Been this morning and priced it well and they were happy with the work. This company is responsible for 900 properties!!
You can have every qualification in the world but they will never compare with experience, ability and capability.
My commercial works are high level, exacting, national and always different. They couldn't give a shiney s*ite whether I have any qualifications. They only need to know that they will get the work that they are paying for - to their standard and that I am complying with all H & S.
Rob ;D
Point made I think
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Rob doing a good job the right way does wonders for your business, but these courses and accreditations also show alot about your company too.....do you not think??
I for one believe these have helped me a long way along with my work ethic and quality service and the way i potray my business.
One of them is not good enough but all of them together give your business very good foundations.
I believe if i put a quote in not just one factor like price would be good enough i beleive it would be the ALL ROUND PACKAGE that would win(most of the time)
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cozy do you even know what point your trying to make ???
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I believe if i put a quote in not just one factor like price would be good enough i beleive it would be the ALL ROUND PACKAGE that would win(most of the time)
Ronnie, do you put your all round package quotes in writing?
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Secondly although dave has an nvq he doesn't have a basic grasp of apwc which was once one of the businesses he owned.While he has no idea for the numbers for this now expired orginisation he does know about the fed. He knows for instance that committee work is unpaid.
Just to correct about commitee members being unpaid. This is not true ! I resigned from the commitee two years ago and at that time we were paid £150 a day honorarium + expenses like hotel and petrol etc.
Steve
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Ronnie
I would say we are friends and have communicated with each other for about 4 years now, I admire your progression and the things that you are doing to get to where you are going.
You remind me of me when I first started out and I will always have time for you and look forward to working with you, in the future!!
Don't be drawn by the arguments, it aint worth it!
I can see that badges, Safe Contractor, Fed, ROSPA etc etc have their place and that facilities managers like them but they don't determine quality of service provided. Who has asked whether you have a NVQ in window cleaning, in your trading experience.
Dave St Ives has done well in his development and it is paying dividends having these but each business is slightly different. It also has a lot to do with marketing and the individual offering the service and their experience, and abilities
I am big, terribly good looking, suave and can be very sophisticated!!!!!!! but if someone is against all of that then I wont get a look in on a contract. ;D
Stack the cards in your favour, however you think is best and if it works for you stuff everyone else!!!
I have never needed qualifications but I am an exceptional individual ;D
Rob ;D
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well Rob you good looking sod ;D
on that note im off to bed.
And thank you for your compliments, camparing me to your self is a complimet has you have achieved great things. :)
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Thanks Steve, that was my point. How can someone know for a fact that the chairman was an unpaid position, when they also claim almost no knowledge of an orginisation that they were running virtually single handed? This is the kind of committee lets all stick together double speak that the guild is trying to distance itself from.
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You are being a bit negative and precious ron.
Firstly an nvq is not seen as much as a qaulification, matt has some, and he's the one who took the mick.
indeed i do ;)
oh and as you asked, look at me ;)
i have a degree in building studies, that somewhat beats a NVQ ( but i didnt feel the need to post it on here, untill you asked ;)), the guy who posted on here ( who was setting up the NVQ L2 window cleaning course ) said that my C&G advanced craft is the same as a NVQ L3
oh and tosh, i passed my RSA 3 typing exam :D :D i am not sure if that was 50 or 60 words per min, i hope it was the later
i did take the mick, my NVQ 2 in carpentry took me allmost 2 years to get ( which involved 13 weeks upon a time in college ) it was all part f my apprenticeship, now the NVQ2 in WC'ing is a day in class and a site visit/s , i do find it amusing how people can get so proud of the NVQ in window cleaning
my wife is a manageress of a hair salon, she has a jnr who has a NVQ L2 in hairdressing, it has taken 18 months to acheive and still isnt worth anything in the real world
as i said earlier in this thread
making posts about the qualifications you have are just bordering on the " i am a window cleaning technician " or a " optical enhancement specialist "
we are window cleaners, we scrub bird mess off glass, do we really need a certificate to show how important we are ? ? ?
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nobody is gonna aknowledge an NVQ in window cleaning. it took me 2years to go through one when i was a printer. and nobody aknowledged that in the industry and they still dont, why.... because its a waste of time. sure i did all the H&S and COSHH and data sheets for chemicals etc. but the value of the qualification really holds no worth or value, but if you want it to have value, you'll tell everyone that you're a qualified window cleaner and you've got an NVQ2.!!!!!
watch em laugh behind your back, they'll think your Peter Kay
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NVQ level isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I have 2 trades to fall back on and class NVQ's as a joke that sound good but don't mean didley squat.
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Slunpbuster
Yes you are right i am an awful businessman, my turnover is rubbish and good badges dont mean anything apart from those paper tattoos.
.
I got tired of the APWC, it wasnt required any more, i was unpaid, and i got fed up answering to people like your good self, so i shut it down, it didnt fail.
Tosh
You do make me laugh, one minute you say you want to better your business, then the next you say you dont, when people try to give advice, its always the wrong advice eh !!!
No matter, more work for me, I only post to try to help.
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I got tired of the APWC, it wasnt required any more, i was unpaid, and i got fed up answering to people like your good self, so i shut it down, it didnt fail.
Tosh
You do make me laugh, one minute you say you want to better your business, then the next you say you dont, when people try to give advice, its always the wrong advice eh !!!
No matter, more work for me, I only post to try to help.
Dave,
You know I'm always open to advice; I've learnt much from this forum; even the poles I use are from advice I've received here; good advice too.
But obviously you can't take on board everyone's advice; you have to use some common sense and sort the wheat from the chaff.
And sometimes I suspect some people's motives for giving advice; or in the manner it's couched; has more to do with self-interest, rather than trying to help fellow members.
Dave, are you aiming to be a FWC committee member?
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Tosh
No more committees for me at the moment, far too busy concentrating on my own business.
But never say never.
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Thinking about it Tosh you sound like you question my motives for giving advice ?
Just ask the amount of people i talk to on the phone or people who email me, about the advice i give.
I always help everyone who asks.
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you are a good business man that's not at issue (although from the history you've given on here it took a while for you to take yourself seriously).
A lot of this thread is about how we value and judge people. When i was at school the only thing that mattered was how good you were at fighting to gain peer approval, on here it's a safely secured tank, an nvq, and H&S awaremess.
Of course when you mention m&s accounts i'm impressed, as i am with contracts for iconic cornish archetechtural landmarks. Yes i'm impressed that you've turned this accreditation into a marketing tool and somehow done a boffo press release ( who wrote that by the way).
I am curious about apwc. I used to like that trevor knight when he posted on here and i got the impression that he was disillusioned.If i had been on your committee i would have tried very hard to persuade you and trevor that the business model should have been closer to the guild.It's all water under the bridge now.
(dave did help me by email with a quote tosh)
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Slumpbuster
If you want a chat about APWC we could arrange to speak on the phone it is easier to talk about it, than to constantly retype everything.
Bottom line i stuck around to honour existing members membership until it run out, i could of walked away and left everyone high and dry , but i didnt, i stayed at great expense to myself.
Lots of things happened which were beyond my control.
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Having read this entire thread from beginning to end, I think the bottom line is that window cleaning is becoming divided into two camps, those who feel qualifications are essential to their business and those who don't.
Further analysis suggests that those of us who concentrate mainly on domestic work do not need qualifications to excel in our chosen field, nor will ever do so, while those who aspire to build vast commercial empires most certainly do need all the paper qualifications they can acquire, if only to impress potentially important customers.
There are, of course, exceptions but I think the above is a generally accurate view.
Arguing from one camp against another is counterproductive and such disagreements will never be resolved as they originate from diametrically opposite points of view.
That's it
Good night :P
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If i were to judge you ian, it would be on the new system of working that you and your team have, it would be on your successfully giving a talk at coventry and explaing it. You tried another biz that didn't work and came back with fire in your belly.
Your family probably think you are a good grandad etc and that is all they care about.
You can't help judging people, but someone who actually starts a thread with his name saying i am this this and this, and then asking others to match him in terms of nvq's is misguided.
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I bet Bryans jumper was a right mess with all those badges he had in the cub scouts. ::)
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I met Ian at the BWCA and was on the same wfp course.
It is interesting to see how we both went down different paths. I had a chat with him a couple of weeks back and found it quite interesting.
I plan to Phone Ian in another 12 months to see whos idea is working best, but the outcome of this will be a closely guarded secret. ;D
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My personal feeling on the case of accrediatations etc is that if you wish to build a commercial side to your business then you are probably doing yourself out of work by not having them , ok sometimes or alot of time they wont matter, but many will be swung by the professionalism, otherwise why would big companies bother, its not just one magic certificate that impresses ie "ive got nvq 2" but rather presenting your business as one which takes great pride in its professionalism with ongoing progessive training and improvement, safecontractor, nvq, iosh , etc etc, what view does that give of you when the building manager sees it in your portfoilio next to a one man band with nothing trying to charge the same ! Who will get the quote!
It wont happen like that every time, but if you are trying to build a proper business in commercial window cleaning you need it,
And on the nvq 2 , why is it such a big deal not to do something that is FREE and is trying to improve the industry, many of you will hate the stereo type many have of WC's. Well is not the nvq a step in the opposite direction??
Just my 2 pence worth, i am not going to get drawn into an argument defending it however as there will always be someone who feels different - thats life, and some will even make a successful business doing things different like Rob @ mclean, but for the majority of us who arent so persuasive the answer i feel is to stand out in other ways ie these certs etc...
sean
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Hello
Sorry going to lock topic becauase i started it
I think it as finished and learnt me personally alot
Not been on for a few days been fishing
Thank you for the replies
Apoliges for subject title should have put this in a training title
I am going to try and answer questions about window cleaning but will not answer old crap from yesterday about FWC it as all finished and the changes are happening
One day would like to meet Tosh
Bryan