Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: geefree on January 16, 2009, 05:42:41 pm
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Hi what is required, for hot diy set up and how much am i looking at?
Cheers
Gary.
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A heater, gas bottle, gas regulator, a few fittings,... preferably a vent or 3 in the van, maybe a low flow switch (But many work just fine without it),..
£200 all in probably.
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Thanks for that Nathanael
Just thinking maybe its time, what are the drawbacks if any?
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An explosion ???
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An explosion ???
Why?
Do people worry about it in motor homes...just be careful and sensible.
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An explosion ???
BOOM!!!
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Thanks for that Nathanael
Just thinking maybe its time, what are the drawbacks if any?
Getting properly insured for its use in your vehicle.
But do what most others do, dont get any insurance for it, and use it anyway :P
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Cheapest hot water setup is about £2500.
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Is That DIY though. :o
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Explain yourself. ::)
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Gary.
It looks like a lack of common sense and a L5. :-X
Ah have just read the L5 topic, and your supplier told you to use your common sense.... when you were asking which heater should be used etc etc....but rather than explaing that here , you chose to say i have no common sense,
why? because i was aking how to do it cheaper than £2500?
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The cheapest you`ll pay for a safe made for the job heater is about £2500.
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will diy not work... if i get it fitted by a corgi gas engineer?
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will diy not work... if i get it fitted by a corgi gas engineer?
No Corgi engineer would put his name to that.
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A heater, gas bottle, gas regulator, a few fittings,... preferably a vent or 3 in the van, maybe a low flow switch (But many work just fine without it),..
£200 all in probably.
Nat, quick question: how much extra did your insurance go up when adding the heater and gas bottle ? did the heater come under a modification ?
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I got the gas connections on mine done by a local Gas installer, although David slater posted info recently that its not actually a requirement in the UK for mobile installations,.. it is sensible though.
My insurance didn't go up a cent. I however informed them (in detail) of the modification over the phone,.. since then I have been advised that I should have informed in writing and asked for confirmation in writing. I plan to do this at the earliest opportunity.
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allways TWO sides to the arguement
it seems that a fair few are very happy with the L 5 it heats water and the heater ( or the type of heater ) is used on boats, Campervans and hunting cabins all over the world, we have a Health and safety bloke ( David slater ) who has done safety course after safety course, he has the credentials to prove he knows what he is on about, he uses the heater and is happy with the safety of it
i keep on thinking they are used in campervans ( R.V's in the USA ) and boats and whilst people can find on u-tube videos of fires with them in, i can find video's of a house fire, doesnt mean to say i live without heat )
now the other side is NWH ( and his mate who just likes to post to cause a argument ) , now NWH has paid 2.5 K for a heater, he spoke to a guy in he pub, a fireman and a gas fitter ( correct me if i am wrong ) and decided it was too dangerous
is it safe ? ? ? ? i guess the 2 sides of the arguement will never agree, its all about a informed choice isnt it ;)
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Cheapest/easiest would be a propane/butane gas ring and a large saucepan, mix 50/50 approx with cold water. But I guess thats too simple ?
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I'm sure it's against health and safety to cook when your camping. Imagine if you blew the stove up that would be the end of your career or worse. For that reason alone i'm never going camping.
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Cheapest/easiest would be a propane/butane gas ring and a large saucepan, mix 50/50 approx with cold water. But I guess thats too simple ?
Where can I find a 400Litre saucepan? ;D
Actually - if you had a 5 litre saucepan and boiled it to nearly 100 degrees C and poured it in your tank how many degrees would that raise the temperature of the whole lot?
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As soon as it`s mixed with the cold nothing,pre heating the water and insulating the tank to keep it warm is a waste of time to get hot water you need to put the water through a heat exchanger for what we want it for,after all it does have to travel through 100 meters of hose so you need constant hot upon hot in the hose to see the difference at the brush.I would say even if you put very hot water in your tank and how you would do that in volume i wouldn`t know,by the time it got through all the plumbing in the system you`d be lucky if it was warm.
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If you filled with hot in the morning and used a heat exchanger from the vehicles engine to maintain the heat (So long as you travelled a bit between jobs) then you'd have a hot system without a heater. Nothing beats "on demand" heat tho!
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I think its more to do with how some people view diy set ups...
like they are sad because its the cheaper option... i remember this type of discussion with the wfp system... and people totally against the diy system..... mainly because they had forked out thousands for a ready made system...
i think the same applies here.
what people have to realise is.... we all cannot afford ready made systems, so people will always strive to do the best they can ... making a system themselves...
in my eyes that is something to commend , someone using inituitive.... to save money and move forward...
and as long as things are done correctly, i dont think spending £200 on a hot water system is wrong.....
and at that price i dont even think that is cheap either....
for hot water in a van.
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Gazza you will be commended for doing it yourself but if anything goes wrong those people will be the first to call you an idiot.
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Cheapest/easiest would be a propane/butane gas ring and a large saucepan, mix 50/50 approx with cold water. But I guess thats too simple ?
Where can I find a 400Litre saucepan? ;D
Actually - if you had a 5 litre saucepan and boiled it to nearly 100 degrees C and poured it in your tank how many degrees would that raise the temperature of the whole lot?
50/50 produces a temrature thats warm/hot to drink from boiling water, try some in a glass or cup, so if you use a 20L container you only need 10L hot . Van mounts excluded.
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allways TWO sides to the arguement
it seems that a fair few are very happy with the L 5 it heats water and the heater ( or the type of heater ) is used on boats, Campervans and hunting cabins all over the world, we have a Health and safety bloke ( David slater ) who has done safety course after safety course, he has the credentials to prove he knows what he is on about, he uses the heater and is happy with the safety of it
i keep on thinking they are used in campervans ( R.V's in the USA ) and boats and whilst people can find on u-tube videos of fires with them in, i can find video's of a house fire, doesnt mean to say i live without heat )
now the other side is NWH ( and his mate who just likes to post to cause a argument ) , now NWH has paid 2.5 K for a heater, he spoke to a guy in he pub, a fireman and a gas fitter ( correct me if i am wrong ) and decided it was too dangerous
is it safe ? ? ? ? i guess the 2 sides of the arguement will never agree, its all about a informed choice isnt it ;)
There is no argument, it’s just a few trying to justify that the L5 which cost £200 and is designed for a different purpose, is just as good and safe as an of the shelf heater for window cleaning that cost £2’500 plus.
If NWH spoke to fireman and a gas fitter they are both more qualified on the subject than David Slater who has apparently done H&S courses and seemed to have missed the whole point of H&S.
People are using these L5 not based on any informed choice, it’s based on a money choice.
Or to prove my point if both types of heater cost the same which one would you choose?
Your suppose to be in business to make money, even if you saved for a year for a proper heater it less than £7 a day, if that’s to much do it over 2 years at less than £3.50 a day, that’s where you should be making your saving.
Big upside is that you will most probably end up with a viable business to sell, if ever you wanted to.
I think you rubbish David Slater too much for what its worth.
He is the only one that actually got insured for his L5 usage (at least he claims, and i dont think he of all people would exaggerate that). Many others may claim to be covered, but to what extent? Maybe just carrying a LPG cannister, but not for full blown usage inside the van.
I asked this in a thread before hand, SO many people claim to use these, but none could say for sure they had it written into their policy they can use it fully covered.
One thing Mr Slater used (since his van has been stolen) is an approved refillable cannister, for vehicle usage, i dont see anyone else claiming that.
One thing is for sure, many people are going round with death trap DIY wfp systems not properly bolted in (using a few straps or ROPE!!!), overloading their vans, puting poles into the cabin area etc etc.... IMO just as dangerous, as you are far more likely to get involved in a road accident - you only need someone to step into the road, or brake hard in front of you..
Expect to see that tank, pole come flying past or even thru you....
Personally, besides on cost of the setup - gas is cheaper than diesel for a running cost - id prefer to use gas. No difference to using it my car... except i have to pay for a conversion so im sticking to petrol, but if i had a choice and money was no problem.. id gas my car anyday, as it would be cheaper to run.
But everyone has their preference.
FYI - Mr Slater went through the phone book basically, rang all the departments necessary - who all concluded, if installed properly, wouldn't pose a significant risk than any other set up. He documented his research, and advised others to do their own - i wonder how many L5 users have really done that.. not many.
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If NWH spoke to fireman and a gas fitter they are both more qualified on the subject than David Slater who has apparently done H&S courses and seemed to have missed the whole point of H&S.
i know a few firemen and i know a number of gas fitters ( who i have worked with in the past )
do i think they would be more qualified about the H&S risks of a gas heater over a guy who has the qualifications and has done the research into them ( David Slater )
i honestly belive that Davids words on the subject carry a little more expertise
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The cheapest method for diy hot water is fit a Immersion heater element £16.65 plus vat from selco and a power pack from Northern Tools for £63.24 http://www.northerntooluk.com/products.asp?partno=2354E and a piece is electrical cable and plug.
Just heat the water up first thing in the morning and use the power pack when the water gets to cold.
Total cost £88
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I was talking to John Hurlbert (The US distributor of the L5) recently. They are currently in talks with a UK based WFP supplier (He wouldn't tell me which one!) to produce a slightly modified version of the L5 specifically for window cleaning use. The new unit will carry a CE mark, will have a more accurate flow switch enabling it to work at lower flow rates, and will have a flue gatherer & connector on top so it can be connected to a standard size boiler flue & roof vent. Essentially though the basic workings and components of the L5 will remain unchanged,.. they are up to CE mark standards already he says.
A major WFP retailer here would have had to do their research before considering this approach,... so when it does become available this way, I'm sure a lot of the ppl who currently doubt the safety of gas heaters will be silenced.
ConceptO2's hot systems are all gas powered too you know,...
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Something to think about there.
My concern would be algae and more serious bugs that might thrive in a tank of warm water all day. I think the water would have to be heated to a point to kill them off. A heater makes more sense to me. I think there is a lot of scaremainering going on by the guys who have parted with the £3000 for their fitted systems. Seems NWH wasn't very strong when it comes down to diy and got scared witless after a chat with KevR.
Plenty of capable diyers can build a perfectly adequate system should they choose to.
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The cheapest method for diy hot water is fit a Immersion heater element £16.65 plus vat from selco and a power pack from Northern Tools for £63.24 http://www.northerntooluk.com/products.asp?partno=2354E and a piece is electrical cable and plug.
Just heat the water up first thing in the morning and use the power pack when the water gets to cold.
Total cost £88
this was allways my first choice, insulate the van tank ( as your home hot water cylinder is ) and then run 1 or 2 Immersion heater element into the tank and heat in the morning for a while
we have our hot water being heated 2 hours in the morning and i think its about 2 hours in the evening and we ALLWAYS have hot water
the only downside is the Immersion heaters are not very cost effective in the running costs
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the only downside is the Immersion heaters are not very cost effective in the running costs
That is a downside, not £3,000 downside admittedly, still something that needs to be considered.
This method is deffo worth further investigation.
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I was talking to John Hurlbert (The US distributor of the L5) recently. They are currently in talks with a UK based WFP supplier (He wouldn't tell me which one!) to produce a slightly modified version of the L5 specifically for window cleaning use. The new unit will carry a CE mark, will have a more accurate flow switch enabling it to work at lower flow rates, and will have a flue gatherer & connector on top so it can be connected to a standard size boiler flue & roof vent. Essentially though the basic workings and components of the L5 will remain unchanged,.. they are up to CE mark standards already he says.
A major WFP retailer here would have had to do their research before considering this approach,... so when it does become available this way, I'm sure a lot of the ppl who currently doubt the safety of gas heaters will be silenced.
ConceptO2's hot systems are all gas powered too you know,...
interesting, though i somewhat think the price just might increase to around the 500 quid mark
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Yep,.. prices are sure to rise,.. but still a lot less than other options I imagine!
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The concept 2o is just a gas water heater like the l5, just a bit bigger and it costs about 400 quid.
Same.
It also requires 2.5 ltr a minutee to fire up. L5 about 1-1.5ltres. Take your pick.
The concept one requires the spare wheel section to be converted into a gas tank (I had a quote and in depth conversation with them), thats at the back of my vehicle. Just where it would get hit. how is that safer than having a small cannister in the van?
I don't get the safety issue. If you went to get a calor gas refill you'd stick it in your boot? You ain't gonna panic are you? If you went camping you'd have one to cook and drive it in the car!
L5 is fine and cheap.
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That doesnt mean that other options need be ruled out.
If thats the case then go out and buy the most expensive van/WFP setup/Accountant/Kit/uniform etc etc, the list is endless, after all, its gonna be repaid over any number of years so price obviously bears no influence on the decision.
Or isnt economics worth considering?
I bet you weigh up the odds when you go out shopping in town.
Matt
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Ewan, which hot system do you have?
What system do you run & is the tank security crash tested?
Tony
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Think a lot of people forget about the risk and rewards, if you spend £2’500 - £3’000 on a wfp heater it’s a very low risk when you spread the cost over a few years or even over a year!
If a hot system makes you an extra £2’500 - £3’000 a year or just an extra £800 -£1’000 over 3 years it would have paid for itself.
Start doing the numbers on making a profit with the system, and you would think its pointless opting for anything else. (If you have done your numbers correctly!) You would understand what I mean.
You can do the same calculation with the cost of the L5, but you can’t disregard H&S issue, which in my opinion is a potential huge risk as is just not worth it for the small amount of saving you can make using the L5.
Ok, so your telling us you have an IONICS set up which has been crash tested for safety? or do you have another make or DIY in your van? If not the IONICS system, are any of the others crash tested for road worthiness?
I think not, so basically we should all be buying IONICS purely on safety in your argument.
edit, oops if only i had read macmac™ 's reply, but at least im not the only one thinking that..
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Ewan, which hot system do you have?
What system do you run & is the tank security crash tested?
Tony
I would guess it's a ladder and a bucket system with bungie straps. ;D
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If NWH spoke to fireman and a gas fitter they are both more qualified on the subject than David Slater who has apparently done H&S courses and seemed to have missed the whole point of H&S.
i know a few firemen and i know a number of gas fitters ( who i have worked with in the past )
do i think they would be more qualified about the H&S risks of a gas heater over a guy who has the qualifications and has done the research into them ( David Slater )
i honestly belive that Davids words on the subject carry a little more expertise
Regardless of Davids "credentials" he has just used his knowledge, to phone the relevant bodies to clarify if it is safe to use the L5 or a system very similar with LPG.
Experts have told him there is no issues, providing he follows requirements..
Now, i dont say for one minute for you to believe all that David has advised, im saying that everyone using these should actually go and do the research for themselves, to be fully clarified on the subject and aware of the requirements in using these heater in road going unattended vehicles.
Really that should extend to any method.. be it electrical element or diesel heater.. Have the companies that fix these into your vans actually given you a document relating to all the H&S regulations and requirements? Or are you just taking THEIR word for it? As Ewan has said "you can’t disregard H&S issue, which in my opinion is a potential huge risk".
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Ewan, which hot system do you have?
What system do you run & is the tank security crash tested?
Tony
Bump
????????????????? well?
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What Do I need an L5 for?
For when you START cleaning windows Ewan,...
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Sorry guys, missed this post - I've been a bit down lately (for obvious reasons!)
The pictures of my hot set up we very kindly brought over to CIU by Jaykie. You can see them on this thread - http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=67744.0
Ewan or NWH (or anyone else!),
Would you care to show me how or why my set up is "dangerous"?
Would you care to point me a Regulation or ACOP or legislation it breaches?....obviously you'll be able to put a HSE LINK up to confirm your thoughts?
NWH - You'll notice I didnt hang the heater off the back doors!!.... Did you really do that? :o
I would ask your friends down the pub exactly WHICH qualifications they hold in H&S management which enables them to offer advice?
A policeman 'knows the law'....but that doesnt make him a lawyer. Same thing applies with engineers and firemen. They need SPECIFIC training in H&S and a good understanding of the relevant Regs to be able to offer advice.
Ewan - I can think of a dozen reasons why ANY "bought" (or indeed a DIY set up) can and will fall foul of the HSE.
1. Poles
Repetitive task: upper body/limb strains. Long term health implications.
Manual Handling: poles being used incorrectly - back injuries (chronic and acute implications)
2. Van
Bulkhead: as chrisyg rightly says - no bulkhead and any unsecured equipment will act as a missile in the event of an accident.
3. System
Every "bought system" I have seen has no ergonomics for the end user. Every one of them requires the user to lean/step in to the vehicle to operate controls - this is a possible breach of WAHR and also potential for chronic/acute back injuries.
....and we havent even touched on whether the system is hot or cold!
I didnt go to all this time and effort designing my system without checking the legalities of carrying gas.
I did my research. I posted up every phone number and contact detail including website links and their answers to my questions. It was thorough. I asked relevant questions. I explained fully what and how the system was to be used. I took me the best part of a week to get all the answers I required. Its all posted on another site.
I have nothing to hide. And nothing to sell. I did it because we should ALL do our own research.
As I explained in my posts (on the other forum) this is who I spoke to, this is the telephone number, this is the website - dont take my word for it. Go and check for yourself.
The problems arise when you have people like NWH hanging heaters off the back doors and then wondering why gas is given a bad name!!!
If any seller of a diesel HOT system would care to post their views on why my DIY gas system is unsafe, please feel free ;D
There is a deafening SILENCE from that quarter dont you think? ;)
EWAN or NWH - if you want to ask specific questions or have any questions about why I chose this particular set-up or design, please feel free to post and I'll answer asap.
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Sorry guys, missed this post - I've been a bit down lately (for obvious reasons!)
The pictures of my hot set up we very kindly brought over to CIU by Jaykie. You can see them on this thread - http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=67744.0
Ewan or NWH (or anyone else!),
Would you care to show me how or why my set up is "dangerous"?
Would you care to point me a Regulation or ACOP or legislation it breaches?....obviously you'll be able to put a HSE LINK up to confirm your thoughts?
NWH - You'll notice I didnt hang the heater off the back doors!!.... Did you really do that? :o
I would ask your friends down the pub exactly WHICH qualifications they hold in H&S management which enables them to offer advice?
A policeman 'knows the law'....but that doesnt make him a lawyer. Same thing applies with engineers and firemen. They need SPECIFIC training in H&S and a good understanding of the relevant Regs to be able to offer advice.
Ewan - I can think of a dozen reasons why ANY "bought" (or indeed a DIY set up) can and will fall foul of the HSE.
1. Poles
Repetitive task: upper body/limb strains. Long term health implications.
Manual Handling: poles being used incorrectly - back injuries (chronic and acute implications)
2. Van
Bulkhead: as chrisyg rightly says - no bulkhead and any unsecured equipment will act as a missile in the event of an accident.
3. System
Every "bought system" I have seen has no ergonomics for the end user. Every one of them requires the user to lean/step in to the vehicle to operate controls - this is a possible breach of WAHR and also potential for chronic/acute back injuries.
....and we havent even touched on whether the system is hot or cold!
I didnt go to all this time and effort designing my system without checking the legalities of carrying gas.
I did my research. I posted up every phone number and contact detail including website links and their answers to my questions. It was thorough. I asked relevant questions. I explained fully what and how the system was to be used. I took me the best part of a week to get all the answers I required. Its all posted on another site.
I have nothing to hide. And nothing to sell. I did it because we should ALL do our own research.
As I explained in my posts (on the other forum) this is who I spoke to, this is the telephone number, this is the website - dont take my word for it. Go and check for yourself.
The problems arise when you have people like NWH hanging heaters off the back doors and then wondering why gas is given a bad name!!!
If any seller of a diesel HOT system would care to post their views on why my DIY gas system is unsafe, please feel free ;D
There is a deafening SILENCE from that quarter dont you think? ;)
EWAN or NWH - if you want to ask specific questions or have any questions about why I chose this particular set-up or design, please feel free to post and I'll answer asap.
I would like to know what the "other forum is" please
info@windowwashers.co.uk
thanks in advance.
Ian
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David
If other’s go to the same length’s as you, what would be the final bill?
My system cost LESS than £500 - thats everything! from the flooring to the Harris pole ;D...not just the HOT bit, but the whole shebang! pumps, pole, heater, tanks, DI vessels, tubing, clips, gas tank, radio controlled varisteam, floor anchors.... the works!
My posts are on the *ahem*... other forum. Those guys watched and helped me design it with their input. One of my first posts was from the day I bought the van so it sort of shows progress from that point onwards.
Could anybody do this? No.....NWH proved that point by hanging his heater off the back doors!!
It does take a little bit of thought and it does require a knowledge of engineering....but not that much!!
Saying you can afford to "buy a system" so thats what you're going to do is a mugs game - ANY business needs to control costs.
A young business needs so much more beyond "a system"....you need advertising, priniting, uniforms, phones, accountants, H&S training ect ect etc...
You need to control costs and you need a system that is 'workable' for you....and safe.
I would argue most manufacturers churn out 'standard systems' and shoe-horn them into our vehicles. This isnt always the best option.
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David Slater
sorry about your van
i missed the post last week, i havent been online for a few days with my hernia op
did you get it back ? ? ? ?
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David Slater
sorry about your van
i missed the post last week, i havent been online for a few days with my hernia op
did you get it back ? ? ? ?
Not yet.
The police reckon it will be parked on a quiet street somewhere within a mile or two - once they realised it didnt have tools (drills, srewdrivers etc etc) in the back, they would have just parked it up and walked off.
As the battery was flat evedn the radio was flashing "CODE" so that would have useless to them as well.
As the policeman said, its not likes its a little audi sportscar....its a diesel van, so not much point showing it off to all your scumbag mates
Theres no 'street cred' in Vivaros ;D ;D
I'm confident I'll get it back unharmed.
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David
Cheaper than I thought, (I saw the photo’s) very tidy and it does look good. Hope you get your van back in one piece or the insurance payout promptly.
Are able to answer this question.
How does it compare and differ from of the shelf heaters made for window cleaners?
Shelf heater?
You've got me there Ewan!!!
Whats a shelf heater?
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David
Cheaper than I thought, (I saw the photo’s) very tidy and it does look good. Hope you get your van back in one piece or the insurance payout promptly.
Are able to answer this question.
How does it compare and differ from of the shelf heaters made for window cleaners?
Shelf heater?
You've got me there Ewan!!!
Whats a shelf heater?
you really need to get one of them though, you put your lunch on it and the heater warms your sarnies, Mmmmmmmmmm toasted cheese sarnies ;D ;D
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I must say David that some of the DIY i see on here does make me chuckle as id be embarresed to turn up and get it out my van or it looks far too dangerous, this is my own opinion on DIY and i wouldnt knock people for doing it,but I think your system is in a different class to this, and more like a pro system,
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David, hope that clarifies
How does it compare and differ with professional supplied and installed hot wfp systems made for window cleaners from a supplier?
In what way?
I dont want to sound all cryptic and mysterious but you need to ask specific questions to get to a specific answer......not unlike H&S ;)
Do you mean - how does it compare to an 'off the shelf' purchase?
OK, here we go -
1. It has ergonomics built around the working environment (specifically, the Vivaro LWB van)...and not just any old van. We all own different vans, so why are we all buying the same sytems??...this is poor H&S :o
2. It will run more efficiently (lower carbon emission) than a diesel system
3. ERGONOMICS (sadly lacking in 'off the shelf' set ups I feel) - you do not need to enter/lean into the vehicle to control any part of the system (shutting it down/starting it up)
4. DI vessels - positioned to be Reasonably Practicable for access (clear area, no obstructions - combined with staff training in manual handling of vessels)
5. CO2 sensor (not visible in photo) audible alarm in the event of CO2 build up - exit vehicle and refer to Fire Action Plan
6. Smoke Alarm (heat) - not visible in photo - exit vehicle and refer to Fire Action Plan
...should I go on?
Or have you got a specific question Ewan?
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I must say David that some of the DIY i see on here does make me chuckle as id be embarresed to turn up and get it out my van or it looks far too dangerous, this is my own opinion on DIY and i wouldnt knock people for doing it,but I think your system is in a different class to this, and more like a pro system,
Thank you Jaykie,
I must admit, I was pleasantly surprised by the response your topic got on my DIY set-up (when you posted my system pics).
I always had CIU down as being a bit, well...Ionics centric, as so many guys had spent so much on their set ups, they needed to justify their purchase!
I feel I owe an apology to the members of CIU.... Maybe I was a bit too one sided in my views and always read the 'negatives' and not so much the 'positives'.
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I must say David that some of the DIY i see on here does make me chuckle as id be embarresed to turn up and get it out my van or it looks far too dangerous, this is my own opinion on DIY and i wouldnt knock people for doing it,but I think your system is in a different class to this, and more like a pro system,
Yeah, I hear what you're saying Jaykie,
I've seen some pictures and felt it best not to comment. They dont do the DIY route much good in long term.
I hope I've shown that IT IS possible to create something professional and workable and (maybe!) even better than what is offered for sale.
If nothing else, I hope a few guys will look at my pictures and think - I can do better than that!!!
That way, we'll all grow together ;)
I know theres guys out there could better my system...... ;)
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But your system wasn't DIY it was a pro system as far as i could tell. Everyone who has seen it is was impressed and your dad must be a proper Richard Feynman type.
As for the topic itself- the cheapest- this is a bit silly.
In some respects the 2.7k bolt on doesn't compare that well to an ionics for say 8k, where you get the lot.
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But your system wasn't DIY it was a pro system as far as i could tell. Everyone who has seen it is was impressed and your dad must be a proper Richard Feynman type.
As for the topic itself- the cheapest- this is a bit silly.
In some respects the 2.7k bolt on doesn't compare that well to an ionics for say 8k, where you get the lot.
DWC,
I'll go along with that - 'the cheapest' is not a good question to ask. Just wait til I email my dad these replies....his head will be bigger than a balloon!!
The 'Most Suitable'...might have been a better question to ask.
Yes, he's a retired aerospace engineer - he has an excellent understanding of how things work, and how things react with force/gravity/objects!!!....no doubt why he laughed his head off at Ionics 30mph "crash test" ;D
My system wasnt 'pro' in is as much as it wasnt built for sale - it was built for me - With my ideas for how I would grow, and eventually the system/van would be passed down to staff and how they would use it safely.
Ewan -
If you want a specific answer then please feel free to ask a specific question.
I understand you dont have much H&S training and may indeed be a new entrant into window cleaning - thats not a problem.
Ask your questions and I'll try and answer them in the most basic terms so you can understand.
If you'd prefer to email me privately, that's fine....I;m not trying to embarrass you Ewan :)
...You're doing that all on your own ;)
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David, no you don’t need to go on.
That is a specific question, you are just having trouble answering, I would presume because you don’t have a clear answer, unfortunately.
I think most would agree yours is one of the better diy hot systems if not the best.
For all your understanding you don’t know what makes the benchmark for hot systems from suppliers and why they are chosen over the L5 or any other.
That cancels out any chance of your system being comparable in any way including H&S.
Bloody hell Ewan...you're a strange bloke ;D ;D
Anyone might think you're a seller in disguise!
I HAVE answered your question.
What else would you like to know??
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There is 2 types of DIY and i believe yours is the good version, I would never mention names as i believe some of these people are good on certain topics and if i was to say on here what i really think of there set up then future posts by myself would be continuasly made to look negative and id always be jumped on with every post i write as thats what seems to happen on here, I myself will have a diy set up in my next van but i personally will not do it as i got a mate who done his own and like yours it looks very pro, sourced parts from all over he place, got one of then skid tanks which i think seem very good,
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There is 2 types of DIY and i believe yours is the good version, I would never mention names as i believe some of these people are good on certain topics and if i was to say on here what i really think of there set up then future posts by myself would be continuasly made to look negative and id always be jumped on with every post i write as thats what seems to happen on here, I myself will have a diy set up in my next van but i personally will not do it as i got a mate who done his own and like yours it looks very pro, sourced parts from all over he place, got one of then skid tanks which i think seem very good,
Everyone has to start somewhere Jaykie,
Give those guys their due, they tried!....and that goes a long way in my book. Thats why I'd never 'diss' their sytems.
I only realised how poor some DIY set-ups were when I saw the pictures.
You should look at my pictures and think - how do I beat that? How do I make it better? What else can I include that David missed?
Unlike some suppliers, I didnt post my pictures as the 'best' set-up.....its just up there for other guys to look at, and think.
With a bit of thought, I bet you could improve on my system.
....my dad is already working on my second system!!!
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I always had CIU down as being a bit, well...Ionics centric, as so many guys had spent so much on their set ups, they needed to justify their purchase!
I feel I owe an apology to the members of CIU.... Maybe I was a bit too one sided in my views and always read the 'negatives' and not so much the 'positives'.
yes we all love ironics here ;D ;D ;D
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well put. My bug bear is that these people don't make any money. I shouldn't be so shallow and there is more in life, but i think, they had all these oppirtunities years before the rest of us, and instead of being really nice guys helping others on forums they should be awash with more cash than they can ever spend. It's beyond question I would be.
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Pardon me Mr Discount, but isn't your electric reel a little ahem, diy? And isn't your hot system diy? What about your pole tidy wasn't that diy? So aren't you the same as the very people you are critisizing?
Confused again ???
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David, no you don’t need to go on.
That is a specific question, you are just having trouble answering, I would presume because you don’t have a clear answer, unfortunately.
I think most would agree yours is one of the better diy hot systems if not the best.
For all your understanding you don’t know what makes the benchmark for hot systems from suppliers and why they are chosen over the L5 or any other.
That cancels out any chance of your system being comparable in any way including H&S.
Bloody hell Ewan...you're a strange bloke ;D ;D
Anyone might think you're a seller in disguise!
I HAVE answered your question.
What else would you like to know??
Nothing, you haven’t told me anything,
Let me put it in perspective for you. I have spent more on H&S than you have on your hot wfp system!
Says it all really, considering how much you go on about H&S ;D
Ewan,
Are we going to chase this around all night?
OK - lets see some pictures of your set-up before I continue typing.
You've seen mine, and you cant see anything wrong with it (neither does NWH by his silence)
So I've shown you mine. You know I'm in Manchester.
Where are you? ....wheres you're system/van?
Lets see YOUR amazing system Ewan?
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The thing is Discount is a really nice guy who likes to help others on forums. I know this because under a previous name he showed us all how to build an electric reel and he's helped us all with his hot water exploits and encouraged us with his understanding of buisiness. He should have walked away and earnt millions.
Actually i had to bend the truth a bit on one of those statements. ;)
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;)
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Ha and i thought you were just bitter because i invented all that cool gutter cleaning kit.
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>:( forgot that one.
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you know those red elastic bands that postmen seem to drop every where? what do you use them for FTP?
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That doesnt mean that other options need be ruled out.
If thats the case then go out and buy the most expensive van/WFP setup/Accountant/Kit/uniform etc etc, the list is endless, after all, its gonna be repaid over any number of years so price obviously bears no influence on the decision.
Or isnt economics worth considering?
I bet you weigh up the odds when you go out shopping in town.
Matt
I agree matt, look at all the options.
Option for me is just to wait until I am ready to buy.
Not just for money (because I already have the money) but also so I know how to make it pay.
What Do I need an L5 for?
SSSSSSSSssssssssssssssssssspoopt!!!!!!!!
That's coffee all over my pc screen again!!!!!
Ewan, you are such a great source of entertainment for us with brains! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Do you ever read what you post?
Surely even you could make an investment of only (what was it?) 1.50 per day pay? No?
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you know those red elastic bands that postmen seem to drop every where? what do you use them for FTP?
Funny you should ask that i have half a dozen now on the coat hook inside my van door. ;D
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such dullards i really miss coach even though he was only here for five minutes. You are supposed to say, red elastic bands, yes i see them about a lot but iv've never really took any notice, what do you use them for discount?
If you were my straightman ftp i'd sack you.
ahh corramba, just read your reply. at last.
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If you were my straightman ftp i'd sack you.
so do you know something we dont :o :o :o
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Ionic will soon be listing all the reasons why not to do this,mark my words.
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such dullards i really miss coach even though he was only here for five minutes. You are supposed to say, red elastic bands, yes i see them about a lot but iv've never really took any notice, what do you use them for discount?
If you were my straightman ftp i'd sack you.
ahh corramba, just read your reply. at last.
A bit off topic, but I'm realy supprised you are still a sole trader discount. Still only one van & you?
With all this business talk & enthusiasm, your 10 years in 2 statement, burning desire to take the w/c'ing world by storm etc.etc. over the last couple of years.
Is it a case of "talk the talk" I'm waiting for the "walk the walk" bit to materialise?
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Macmac (tm) that made me LMAO. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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No!
Ewan edited my previous post. He's added swear words to it ;D
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Here he goes again.
He just cant help himself.
Im sure he said he was going to moderate his behaviour just around 2 weeks ago.
Now!! Let me remember, didnt he come on here apologising for his uncouthed tongue?
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If any seller of a diesel HOT system would care to post their views on why my DIY gas system is unsafe, please feel free
There is a deafening SILENCE from that quarter dont you think?
Cant be bothered......many on CIU only interested in knowing what is the cheapest
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I guess they think youve got to start somewhere when investigating; and price is as good a place as any to start. Which is fair enough. Dont we all do that with most things we purchase? Im sure you do.
What sort of a business man would anyone be if they ignored the cost of something to his business. I'm sure you do. You seem to make out Glyn that money neednt be considered, I bet your staff that you pay out of your pocket would disagree ;)
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Ionic will soon be listing all the reasons why not to do this,mark my words.
hot off the press so to speak
i can feel a 10 page article coming out in the " windows cleaners mag Ummmm professional windows cleaners mag are sod it, ionics sales brochure mag "
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Goes to show what a dodgy position some suppliers are in really if the majority of equipment can be easily assembled by a competent DIYer. The major parts of all the systems can be bought quite easily. Quality poles are a different matter although fishing poles come very close. Long telescopics can't be copied but a fifteen foot telescopic can be had for fifteen quid!
I think several suppliers don't realise that the majority of forum members are not in the top sector of businesses (Ewan thinks he is) in this country. They don't have the funds or are not willing to chuck money at big brand names for the hell of it. The bigger businesses don't waste there time arguing on this forum - they don't need to.
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If any seller of a diesel HOT system would care to post their views on why my DIY gas system is unsafe, please feel free
There is a deafening SILENCE from that quarter dont you think?
Cant be bothered......many on CIU only interested in knowing what is the cheapest
Good point Glyn, that's why the title was "what's the cheapest hot water set up" but i'm sure David would be interested to know your views on his system.
Just look at all the posts on here it's pretty obvious that the whole forum is driven along by people starting up or trying to save money or looking for advice. I don't know why you even visit this forum because 99% are not the big spending customers you want.
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The bigger businesses don't waste there time arguing on this forum - they don't need to.
they used to though
in the old days we used to have some right laughs at them, they would come on here and argue that they had the better / safer / faster system, it became a regular joke to be honest and ALL parties were made to look silly with the claims / accusations they made
then of course they would come on here as a alias and tell us about the demo they had just had ::) ::) and how XXXX system was fantastic and we should all go out and buy one, it'll make you rich
of course the more people saw how easy it was to use the same parts and build a system , the more people did it ( we have allways had people who claimed that a off the shelf system was better, i guess we allways will ) but the more and more people who went DIY and the advent of the freedom trolley ( and other sack truck style cheaper systems ( sorry andrew, its just a glorified sack truck ;) ) meant that it got to a point where the system suppliers would arrive on here to try and sell a system and they couldnt compete with the DIY and the cheaper systems ( freedom trolley springs to mind but we have others ), so i guess they stopped
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If any seller of a diesel HOT system would care to post their views on why my DIY gas system is unsafe, please feel free
There is a deafening SILENCE from that quarter dont you think?
Cant be bothered......many on CIU only interested in knowing what is the cheapest
Good point Glyn, that's why the title was "what's the cheapest hot water set up" but i'm sure David would be interested to know your views on his system.
Just look at all the posts on here it's pretty obvious that the whole forum is driven along by people starting up or trying to save money or looking for advice. I don't know why you even visit this forum because 99% are not the big spending customers you want.
glyn is a prime case, we have recently had the gutter sucker hoover threads, glyn defended his corner, but in the end, it just came down to :
the parts for it are available off the shelf for a fraction of the price to buy his
thus, he was going to lose the argument right from the start, yes we have a few who will say " but i like to open a box and push it together an away i go i dont want to spend 2 hours in 1 evening to look around the net and order them "
fair enough, they are the customers glyn needs
the age of the internet has mad the consumer alot more powerfull, it takes a evening to locate most things ( and locate them for the cheapest price ) we also have the internet for sharing info, communities like we have here, we help each other out, some1 has a idea which works and of course, they share the info on what to order and where from, i know certain people dont like that and try the best to rubbish them, but hey, its here and its not going to stop
viva the revolution
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Good post Matt.
ANOTHER ;D hobby I have is keeping Marine Fish and corals.
Before the Internet came along my sole source of reference and knowledge was a magazine called Practical Fishkeeping. The learning curve I experienced once the internet came along and forums appeared was dramatic if nothing else as IMO a magazine publication pushing various products by various manufacturers is a closed shop to say the least.
They simply published articles which benefited manufacturers and pushed their products quite shamelessly.
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Maaan, its only window cleaning.
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Ewan and waterfed windows.
Can i ask you both to behave, although i dont want to see anyone banned you are both skating on thin ice.
Waterfed can i ask you to change your avatar, you know exactly what you are doing.
Thanks
Dave
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Cheapest = Kettle poured into your backpack...........do I win the award?????
You could even use a 12v travel kettle and leave it boiling while you work. Come on this has to be the cheapest method :D
Make yourself a nice cuppa in between clients as well.
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Ewan, i'm not bitter you half wit. ;D
I'm just pointing out that the majority of people on this forum are not big spenders. Look at all the posts, scroll down through them all, they are nearly all questions like Where can i get the cheapest resin? How do i build my own ro system? Who's the cheapest supplier? How do i build my own Guttervac? What's the cheapest hot water system? Best place to buy ladders? etc etc. The forum is almost a diy forum if you think about it, most contributors don't want to spend more than they have to.
I don't have a low opinion of the trade and i don't attack suppliers who come on to help all the new start ups on here - i will attack suppliers who think it's funny to put down members who don't want to spend a fortune on their goods.
Don't tell me to add value to my business when you don't even practice what you preach yourself.
You keep attacking me for having cheap equipment - some is, but some is the best money can buy.
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this was allways my first choice, insulate the van tank ( as your home hot water cylinder is ) and then run 1 or 2 Immersion heater element into the tank and heat in the morning for a while
we have our hot water being heated 2 hours in the morning and i think its about 2 hours in the evening and we ALLWAYS have hot water
the only downside is the Immersion heaters are not very cost effective in the running costs
matt or anyone
is this something you can lower into your tank - heat for x amount of time then remove ?
sounds simple.
could you give me some more info. please
where to buy etc..
thanks
rob
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Immersion heaters only cost about 35p and hour to run. So why not fit one into your tank on a timer each morning and then plug it into a customers outside socket if you need to top-up at all during the day.
In my mind this has to be the simplest and cheapest option and the route that I will be going down if I ever want the 'HOT' option. The idea of gas makes me nervous, diesel is smelly, noisy and expensive.
You could get all sophisticated with it and have it on a outside thermostat and a timer so that it only came on before work if the outside temperature dropped below a certain temperature. You could also wire it into your vehicle and run your engine to power it on an inverter. An insulated tank would mean that it held on to its heat for longer.
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this was allways my first choice, insulate the van tank ( as your home hot water cylinder is ) and then run 1 or 2 Immersion heater element into the tank and heat in the morning for a while
we have our hot water being heated 2 hours in the morning and i think its about 2 hours in the evening and we ALLWAYS have hot water
the only downside is the Immersion heaters are not very cost effective in the running costs
matt or anyone
is this something you can lower into your tank - heat for x amount of time then remove ?
sounds simple.
could you give me some more info. please
where to buy etc..
thanks
rob
my idea was
get a metal ( ali ) cage fitted around the Immersion heater element, so the elemenet would have a say 50 mm gap between the cage and the element, bolt the element though the cage then you could just drop the cage 9 and element ) into the tank and it would never get close enough to the plastic tank to melt it
i never looked into in in full as i never had a tank in the van ( allways used 25 L barrels ) now i will have to put the tank on the van, i might look into costs
i guess alex could look into the costs for it, just measure a 11" and a 27" this seems to be the standard sizes, then just get a aluminum cage made with a hole at 1 end, this would then be able to be adapted to fit standard off the shelf elements
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Ewan and waterfed windows.
Can i ask you both to behave, although i dont want to see anyone banned you are both skating on thin ice.
Waterfed can i ask you to change your avatar, you know exactly what you are doing.
Thanks
Dave
Sorry boss ;D
He likes the attention, his Daddy put the swing too close to the wall ;)
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Ewan, i'm not bitter you half wit. ;D
Dave, Ewan has a habit of doing this; at some point in time he is accused of being something (bitter, pendantic, amateur, stupid) then a short period of time later he says the same of others. Just goes to show the original accusation obviously has some truth in it and it hurt, thus he tries the same tactic on those he wishes to inflict some element of discomfort to.
Ewan you're bitter.
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Ewan, i'm not bitter you half wit. ;D
Dave, Ewan has a habit of doing this; at some point in time he is accused of being something (bitter, pendantic, amateur, stupid) then a short period of time later he says the same of others. Just goes to show the original accusation obviously has some truth in it and it hurt, thus he tries the same tactic on those he wishes to inflict some element of discomfort to.
Ewan you're bitter.
i guess his reply to this will be
you just dont get it, do you ? ? ? ?
creature of habit i guess
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pics of my heating (http://)element i had made specially for tank 1500watt , adjustable thermostat in the control box to max 90degrees.
ive had it for a year and never used it because i couldnt be bothered with insulating tanks etc , cost £220 open to offers if anyone wants it.
i went the l5 route and have no use for it now
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the age of the internet has mad the consumer alot more powerfull, it takes a evening to locate most things ( and locate them for the cheapest price ) we also have the internet for sharing info, communities like we have here, we help each other out, some1 has a idea which works and of course, they share the info on what to order and where from, i know certain people dont like that and try the best to rubbish them, but hey, its here and its not going to stop
Thats why many thousands are being made redundant because high street stores cannot compete with the internet =thousands of new potential window cleaners?
Why then do the complaints come thick and fast on CIU about window cleaners undercharging for jobs?
Why shouldnt window cleaners take insperation from the www price cutting and undercut competitors or indeed why shouldnt householders buy wfp equipment or build their own -- a Harris pole and a di tank connected to their outside tap and they will save themselves a fortune!
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is that your office jeff?
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the age of the internet has mad the consumer alot more powerfull, it takes a evening to locate most things ( and locate them for the cheapest price ) we also have the internet for sharing info, communities like we have here, we help each other out, some1 has a idea which works and of course, they share the info on what to order and where from, i know certain people dont like that and try the best to rubbish them, but hey, its here and its not going to stop
Thats why many thousands are being made redundant because high street stores cannot compete with the internet =thousands of new potential window cleaners?
Why then do the complaints come thick and fast on CIU about window cleaners undercharging for jobs?
Why shouldnt window cleaners take insperation from the www price cutting and undercut competitors or indeed why shouldnt householders buy wfp equipment or build their own -- a Harris pole and a di tank connected to their outside tap and they will save themselves a fortune!
Why shop for vegatables, they could grow there own.
But they are lazy and thats why we work.
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Immersion heaters only cost about 35p and hour to run. So why not fit one into your tank on a timer each morning and then plug it into a customers outside socket if you need to top-up at all during the day.
In my mind this has to be the simplest and cheapest option and the route that I will be going down if I ever want the 'HOT' option. The idea of gas makes me nervous, diesel is smelly, noisy and expensive.
You could get all sophisticated with it and have it on a outside thermostat and a timer so that it only came on before work if the outside temperature dropped below a certain temperature. You could also wire it into your vehicle and run your engine to power it on an inverter. An insulated tank would mean that it held on to its heat for longer.
thanks Alex... i like that idea very much.
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Diesel is not smelly at all i to thought it would be but mine runs off of the vehicle tank with an exhaust that goes through the floor so theres no smell.
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Why shop for vegatables, they could grow there own.
But they are lazy and thats why we work.
Bet your customers would be happy to know you think they are lazy!
The majority have better things to do with their time,and are happy to pay others for a chore.
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Diesel is not smelly at all i to thought it would be but mine runs off of the vehicle tank with an exhaust that goes through the floor so theres no smell.
A good diesel system like yours is not smelly but I have smelt those that are! And anyway it sounded better putting 'smelly' in.
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is that your office jeff?
i allways wonder why people take pics of desks with the pc and a roll of bog paper on the desk :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D
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yes its my office/shed/utility/haven from kids and missus, just finished building it cant be bothered to plaster it but its sheer luxury compared to scrabbling on my hands and knees to scan documents behind the sofa! ;D
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I went down the gas route for my hot water.
I'm now back just using pure cold water. Why, because it still leaves the same result as cold, its a lot cheaper, and the carrying/using gas made me nervous, and I couldn't be doing the extra complications caused by using hot water.
Is hot water easier for cleaning? Yes, without doubt Easier, but only slightly more quicker.
Is worth the weekly cost in gas? unless your doing a lot of REALLY dirty 1st cleans, or encountering lots a hard baked bird poo - then no, I don't.
Cold pure water works just fine for 95% of jobs.
I'm glad I tried it, but I won't be going back to it unless the running costs are reduced, and I wouldn't choose gas next time.
There just my thoughts anyway :-\
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Immersion heaters only cost about 35p and hour to run. So why not fit one into your tank on a timer each morning and then plug it into a customers outside socket if you need to top-up at all during the day.
In my mind this has to be the simplest and cheapest option and the route that I will be going down if I ever want the 'HOT' option. The idea of gas makes me nervous, diesel is smelly, noisy and expensive.
You could get all sophisticated with it and have it on a outside thermostat and a timer so that it only came on before work if the outside temperature dropped below a certain temperature. You could also wire it into your vehicle and run your engine to power it on an inverter. An insulated tank would mean that it held on to its heat for longer.
Even electricity has its own unique problems - electric shock and electrocution!. My point was - if you're not controlling the hazards associated with your system (be that the poles, heating system, ergonomics etc etc) then it doesnt really matter whether you're buying a system or creating your own. Too many guys seem to have the idea that 'buying' something has somehow relieved them of any responsibility.
We both know it hasnt.
You could get even more sophisticated and link it up to Economy 7...which is even cheaper than your standard supply - www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/ It would need good insulation to work effectively.
I liked the idea of those 'heat transfer' units (cant remember the proper name!). That seemed a really good option but required you to run the van for a fair amount of time to get a full tank of hot water and there were other drawbacks if I remember correctly.
As for gas making you nervous: Its a fair comment, if thats what you feel, dont use it.
Petrol stations have more 'issues' than I will ever have using an approved gas bottle -
1. Petrol is explosive
2.It has a very low flash point
3.It is carcinogenic
4. It is an irritant on skin
5. In a liquid state you could be splashed with it and be engulfed in fire
6. Filing mechanisms are not enclosed (you can watch the vapour leaving your tank while re-fuelling)
7 NO special training or instruction is provided to the user to ensure 'safe operation' of the equipment
etc etc etc....
Yet millions of people use this highly flammable and explosive substance safely every day without any prior training or instruction?
I'm not for one moment saying my system is "the best" - I am however saying I have looked at the potential problems and feel I have come up with a reliable and safe way of using this fuel.....My "safety systems" far outweigh anything provided to a 16 year old filling up his moped at a petrol forecourt for the first time!!
Glyn H -
"Why shouldnt window cleaners take insperation from the www price cutting and undercut competitors or indeed why shouldnt householders buy wfp equipment or build their own -- a Harris pole and a di tank connected to their outside tap and they will save themselves a fortune!"
But Inocs already sell a 'home' version of their kits?....If I was a home owner looking for a kit to clean my windows, then I probably would be very interested in the DIY set up you mentioned ;)
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Immersion heaters only cost about 35p and hour to run. So why not fit one into your tank on a timer each morning and then plug it into a customers outside socket if you need to top-up at all during the day.
In my mind this has to be the simplest and cheapest option and the route that I will be going down if I ever want the 'HOT' option. The idea of gas makes me nervous, diesel is smelly, noisy and expensive.
You could get all sophisticated with it and have it on a outside thermostat and a timer so that it only came on before work if the outside temperature dropped below a certain temperature. You could also wire it into your vehicle and run your engine to power it on an inverter. An insulated tank would mean that it held on to its heat for longer.
Even electricity has its own unique problems - electric shock and electrocution!. My point was - if you're not controlling the hazards associated with your system (be that the poles, heating system, ergonomics etc etc) then it doesnt really matter whether you're buying a system or creating your own. Too many guys seem to have the idea that 'buying' something has somehow relieved them of any responsibility.
We both know it hasnt.
You could get even more sophisticated and link it up to Economy 7...which is even cheaper than your standard supply - www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/ It would need good insulation to work effectively.
I liked the idea of those 'heat transfer' units (cant remember the proper name!). That seemed a really good option but required you to run the van for a fair amount of time to get a full tank of hot water and there were other drawbacks if I remember correctly.
As for gas making you nervous: Its a fair comment, if thats what you feel, dont use it.
Petrol stations have more 'issues' than I will ever have using an approved gas bottle -
1. Petrol is explosive
2.It has a very low flash point
3.It is carcinogenic
4. It is an irritant on skin
5. In a liquid state you could be splashed with it and be engulfed in fire
6. Filing mechanisms are not enclosed (you can watch the vapour leaving your tank while re-fuelling)
7 NO special training or instruction is provided to the user to ensure 'safe operation' of the equipment
etc etc etc....
Yet millions of people use this highly flammable and explosive substance safely every day without any prior training or instruction?
I'm not for one moment saying my system is "the best" - I am however saying I have looked at the potential problems and feel I have come up with a reliable and safe way of using this fuel.....My "safety systems" far outweigh anything provided to a 16 year old filling up his moped at a petrol forecourt for the first time!!
Glyn H -
"Why shouldnt window cleaners take insperation from the www price cutting and undercut competitors or indeed why shouldnt householders buy wfp equipment or build their own -- a Harris pole and a di tank connected to their outside tap and they will save themselves a fortune!"
But Inocs already sell a 'home' version of their kits?....If I was a home owner looking for a kit to clean my windows, then I probably would be very interested in the DIY set up you mentioned ;)
Do you ever feel you're banging your head against a brick wall?
Stupidly, some people think higher investment = higher return! ::)
Personaly, I would buy & use your system without hesitation. ;)
Tony
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Nah, its only the internet... I'm sure if we were sat in the pub, most of these guys would be alright :)
It was only after reading the DIY forums and other forums and chatting to guys, that I started thinking about building my own system.
So I'd say no, it doesnt feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Some guys have asked really good questions and I hope I've answered them.
Matt, Nat, Mr H, (and a load of other guys!) gave me lots of help and advice so I cant claim I did this all by myself!
It was only through talking, questioning and challenging their ideas that I started to look at it from another angle.
Other guys just sit on the sidelines and mock anything and everything!....that doesnt seem very productive but there you go! ::)
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HI David,
I like your in depth reply. I suppose I do look at these systems with a suppliers eyes and I would feel nervous about selling them on to a third party. Using one myself I would not really worry.
I do like the idea of electric though, but as you point out there are still dangers to this option.
One day I may take the plunge who knows.
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HI David,
I like your in depth reply. I suppose I do look at these systems with a suppliers eyes and I would feel nervous about selling them on to a third party. Using one myself I would not really worry.
I do like the idea of electric though, but as you point out there are still dangers to this option.
One day I may take the plunge who knows.
Hi Alex,
What is it specifically that makes you nervous about LPG?
Let me see if I also had the same concern and managed to put controls in place for it?
My point wasnt that electric, diesel, petrol or LPG is safer/less dangerous than the other...its that they ALL have their own unique and specific hazards which need proper controls to be put in place to monitor, audit and control the hazards.
Some guys seem to think that buying a system must by virtue "make it safe". I would argue that without proper training, controls, audit and monitoring it isnt safe.
EXAMPLE - Imagine if i bought a 60' pole from you, but didnt understand how to use it correctly or how to control its hazards - I could rip my arms out at the root! or severly damage my back or even drop it on someone!
Does that mean you pole is 'dangerous' ? NO. It means the operative didnt understand how to use the equipment....and should have sought training/instruction before using it.
With proper controls in place, LPG should cause no more (or less) hazards than Gas, Electric or Diesel.
Just a thought for the guys that bought the HOT systems - how much training did you get on the system?
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HI David,
From a suppliers viewpoint, my main sticking point with a fitted LPG system would be ventilation. Not many would like to have a vent hole in the roof, what would be a safe and secure alternative?
I would not be too worried about storage of the gas as gas bottles are pretty robust and could have a securing cage for them.
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or you could get up one morning, trip over your slippers :P and dive head first though the bedroom window :o, where you land on the posrman and milkman (who are both delivering at the same time) killing them instandly :(.
It makes you wonder, should I really get up today ;D
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HI David,
From a suppliers viewpoint, my main sticking point with a fitted LPG system would be ventilation. Not many would like to have a vent hole in the roof, what would be a safe and secure alternative?
I would not be too worried about storage of the gas as gas bottles are pretty robust and could have a securing cage for them.
Personally, I'd say there ISNT a safe alternative to putting in a proper roof mounted ventilation system.
You could do a bit of jiggery pokery on the floor I suppose (and vent it that way) but hot gases rise - so the most efficient way of exhausting those poisonous gases from the vehicle is in a straight line out of the roof.
Im humble opinion of course!! :)
There are systems similar to an LEV (Local Exhaust Ventilation) which could pull or push the gases out of the vehicle...but that just one more piece of equipment to possibly fail. Keep it simple!
Unless someone else has a better idea?
From a supplier viewpoint, I think the only way to go (for all systems) is bespoke to the vehicle. What works in a Transit, may not work as well in a Vauxhall and so on...
THOUSANDS of vans have roof ventilation - police dog vans, bakers, grocers, refridgerated vans, crew buses.....so I dont think it really devalues the vehicle long term as long as its done neatly and professionally.
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David Slater, no one has said that if they brought from a supplier, “they have relived themselves from any responsibility”. Purchasing it from a supplier in the first place shows responsibility, over toying with gas.
(As far as I am aware I don’t think there are any “DIY Petrol Stations”)
As nice looking your diy hot set up is, you still don’t know the differences between one from a supplier and yours, and the hoops they have had to jump through to bring it to production.
Big down side to doing things your way, you could never sell that system (to someone responsible) so you haven’t really invested or built your business up.
You have saved money in the short term at the expense of long term.
(Build a fleet up and see how much your business would be worth over a normal set up.)
You go to work to make money, although some are consistently only looking to save money.
Just a thought David how much training have you & your dad had on hot wfp systems? (It’s a loaded question, because the answer is none)
Ewan,
As I said a page 3 of this topic - as soon as you post up the pictures of your system, I'll happily talk to you.
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or you could get up one morning, trip over your slippers :P and dive head first though the bedroom window :o, where you land on the posrman and milkman (who are both delivering at the same time) killing them instandly :(.
It makes you wonder, should I really get up today ;D
I dont understand the relevance of your question/answer?
Could you explain?
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I thought so, nice shed/ office. I'm a big shed man fan.
I see you have lined it out with plaster board etc. If you ever finish the project put some pics up. Matt likes 40 yr old camper vans but has a shed aversion. A shed, a good one, is a fine addition to any house ands value to a similar degree to an extra bedroom. Sheds cost about £1400, so there is an obvious benefit over an extension or a conservatory.
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I agree David,
There isn't really an alternative to a roof vent.
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David Slater, no one has said that if they brought from a supplier, “they have relived themselves from any responsibility”. Purchasing it from a supplier in the first place shows responsibility, over toying with gas.
(As far as I am aware I don’t think there are any “DIY Petrol Stations”)
As nice looking your diy hot set up is, you still don’t know the differences between one from a supplier and yours, and the hoops they have had to jump through to bring it to production.
Big down side to doing things your way, you could never sell that system (to someone responsible) so you haven’t really invested or built your business up.
You have saved money in the short term at the expense of long term.
(Build a fleet up and see how much your business would be worth over a normal set up.)
You go to work to make money, although some are consistently only looking to save money.
Just a thought David how much training have you & your dad had on hot wfp systems? (It’s a loaded question, because the answer is none)
Ewan,
As I said a page 3 of this topic - as soon as you post up the pictures of your system, I'll happily talk to you.
David Slater
That’s just a cop out or just burying your head in the sand.
I could have posted any pictures up, but there’s no point you would have found another excuse.
Not wanting to hear or understand any possible reason why it’s not a good idea to have a diy hot system.
You’re just a little over confident about what you have achieved with your hot system.
If your system is that good bring it to market, that’s the only way you will convince the majority. You’re convinced yourself and a few on here that’s it.
Sorry if my post have been a little harsh, welcome to the world outside of CIU. I may come on CIU but I wont agree just because others agree.
CIU serves two purposes learn how to do something or learn how not to do something, doing both will save you time and money.
Nope, not an excuse Ewan.
You are chasing this argument round and round without any real knowledge or understanding.
Show me your system and we'll talk further :)
.....You have got a system havent you Ewan?
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That definately is debatable ;)
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System pics please Ewan.
I've answered your questions numerous times.
Please do me the courtesy of answering my only question to you.
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You’re just a little over confident about what you have achieved with your hot system.
If your system is that good bring it to market, that’s the only way you will convince the majority. You’re convinced yourself and a few on here that’s it.
I don't think it was ever an objective of David's or anyone else's to develop a heater for sale to the public. If you put an L5 next to a varitech hot box and asked me which is better then I'd happily answer the Varitech one. The question isn't "which is best", but "what is achievable" and how to achieve that end safely. I think the vast majority of window cleaners on here (myself included) cannot afford a brand name hot setup, and DIY is the only affordable alternative.
I for one couldn't spare the funds for a Varitech heater, so I went DIY, and David's input has been a huge help in making my setup as safe as it can be.
I really don't see what your problem is Ewan,.. your arguments are circular, you refuse to acknowledge the facts presented, and you seem to have an agenda that is slightly different from the majority here. I honestly can't work out your angle,...
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From what i could see it was completely enclosed, all of the controls including the digital varistream and heat controls were flush with wall of the system. Which in turn was accessed by the side door.
It had many interesting design features/advances over existing so called professional systems. Expect a few of the ideas to turn up in the big brand names new 2010 range.
We admire it because it's good ewan.
Furthermore, although there are some issues with gas, the cleanliness and efficiency means that logic will dictate that the biggest name of all will be forced to go this route eventually. We just got there a bit before they did. ;)
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Quote: macmac
“Stupidly, some people think higher investment = higher return!”
Some may think that way macmac, but you have to invest, and the level of investment is not about the person, it’s about the industry you are in and at what level.
It's macmac(tm) to you, thankyou! >:(
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You’re just a little over confident about what you have achieved with your hot system.
If your system is that good bring it to market, that’s the only way you will convince the majority. You’re convinced yourself and a few on here that’s it.
I don't think it was ever an objective of David's or anyone else's to develop a heater for sale to the public. If you put an L5 next to a varitech hot box and asked me which is better then I'd happily answer the Varitech one. The question isn't "which is best", but "what is achievable" and how to achieve that end safely. I think the vast majority of window cleaners on here (myself included) cannot afford a brand name hot setup, and DIY is the only affordable alternative.
I for one couldn't spare the funds for a Varitech heater, so I went DIY, and David's input has been a huge help in making my setup as safe as it can be.
I really don't see what your problem is Ewan,.. your arguments are circular, you refuse to acknowledge the facts presented, and you seem to have an agenda that is slightly different from the majority here. I honestly can't work out your angle,...
Spot on Nat!!
I have no intention of bringing a product to market. I'll happily help and and discuss what my dad and I did to get to my end results.
The whole point of DIY is you dont NEED to buy a system. With a little bit of thought (and lots of help from your peers) its more than possible to do your own system.
The underecurrent of this topic seems to be that 'diesel is safe' and 'gas is dangerous' - this is quite patently rubbish for the reasons I have highlighted countless times throughout this thread.
I could just as easily created a HOT system using diesel, petrol, electric or heat transfer - as Nat is aware, I asked a million questions on 'the other forum' about each and every option.....none seemed to have a distinct advantage over the other.
Maybe we wouldnt be having this epic discussion if I'd chosen diesel??
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From what i could see it was completely enclosed, all of the controls including the digital varistream and heat controls were flush with wall of the system. Which in turn was accessed by the side door.
It had many interesting design features/advances over existing so called professional systems. Expect a few of the ideas to turn up in the big brand names new 2010 range.
We admire it because it's good ewan.
Furthermore, although there are some issues with gas, the cleanliness and efficiency means that logic will dictate that the biggest name of all will be forced to go this route eventually. We just got there a bit before they did. ;)
This to me was more important than the fuel source used to create hot water.
You are correct DWC,
All systems and operations were (where possible) accessed via the side door. And that area was designed so it could not be used for entering/exiting the vehicle. This was a very specific and carefully thought out design feature.
I even posted up questions about how often people used their side doors before going down this route - if I block it off, am I going to create another problem?
It had its own fuse board - shockingly, a lot of equipment is supplied to us without in-line fuses!!....so dont for one moment think my concerns just revolve around "system suppliers"....its equipment suppliers as well.
The only part of the system we couldnt work into the side door was the DI vessels (they're the BIG ones!).....but if I dont get my van back, my dad has already said he's going to look again at this and see if we can alter some things.
ERGONOMICS is so key to H&S, I'm surprised more "suppliers" havent looked into it or thought about the long term repercussions!
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I thought so, nice shed/ office. I'm a big shed man fan.
I see you have lined it out with plaster board etc. If you ever finish the project put some pics up. Matt likes 40 yr old camper vans but has a shed aversion. A shed, a good one, is a fine addition to any house ands value to a similar degree to an extra bedroom. Sheds cost about £1400, so there is an obvious benefit over an extension or a conservatory.
;D i love sheds, infact i am currently finding / project managing a build of a Home Office ( and part time guest room ) shed, the guy is after a high spec'ed home office, it needs a toilet aswell, plasterboard / dry lined inside for use all year round
i only made a joke about pics of desks with the PC and a roll of toilet paper ( think about it ;)) its a bit of a online standing joke on the tech forums i frequent
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I have no intention of bringing a product to market. I'll happily help and and discuss what my dad and I did to get to my end results.
The whole point of DIY is you dont NEED to buy a system. With a little bit of thought (and lots of help from your peers) its more than possible to do your own system.
we have been having this discussion for years, when i started to push the DIY route ( with help from Jeff B and funny enough Philip hanson ) it was exactly the same, i guess it will continue aswell, as some will never understand, im not even sure they try, closed minds and all that
Maybe we wouldnt be having this epic discussion if I'd chosen diesel??
oh you would have, its not about the fuel type, its just because you had the knowledge / skill to build your own, as above, closed minds will never accept it
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Ionic will soon be listing all the reasons why not to do this,mark my words.
Mark my words NWH,
They wont.
The minute they say their system is 'less dangerous' than mine, it will open the floodgates to everyone (including Alex) to set their equipment up against a rival....you cant have one rule for one, and one rule for another. And if memory serves, certain suppliers didnt like comparison tests did they?
Seeing as "certain suppliers" have a massive problem with their products being used in 'like for like' comparisons I doubt very much they'd like to tell me my system is dangerous.
I have issues with *ahem* certain "suppliers" and their safety claims....I would love the opportuntiy to go 'head to head' with them.
I cant wait for a "supplier" to tell me what I am doing is 'wrong' or 'dangerous'
Obviously, they will be able to link with HSE or maybe DoT or maybe VCA or maybe another official body, and if they cant....maybe I'll be able to sue them and claim back the price of my van ;D
If any supplier was to even sugest that their gas, electric, diesel, heat exchanger or LPG system was more more or less dangerous than another, I would be onto Trading Standards and the HSE quicker than you could say - unfounded spurios claims, market manipulation and monopolising market position for their benfit.
Trust me NWH, they DONT want to cross swords with people using gas safely...and they know it ;)
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I have no intention of bringing a product to market. I'll happily help and and discuss what my dad and I did to get to my end results.
The whole point of DIY is you dont NEED to buy a system. With a little bit of thought (and lots of help from your peers) its more than possible to do your own system.
we have been having this discussion for years, when i started to push the DIY route ( with help from Jeff B and funny enough Philip hanson ) it was exactly the same, i guess it will continue aswell, as some will never understand, im not even sure they try, closed minds and all that
Maybe we wouldnt be having this epic discussion if I'd chosen diesel??
oh you would have, its not about the fuel type, its just because you had the knowledge / skill to build your own, as above, closed minds will never accept it
Matt,
You were the guy that started me into this whole DIY thing :)
I found your site by accident, then I wandered off onto another site.....I feel really bad for not contributing more. But you guys were already so knowledgeable, I just sat back and read the topics and learnt loads!
I built my Harris Pole from your guide :)
My question is - why arent more guys seeking out the knowledge that you have offered up for free??....its madness!
Pay for it? - Get it free?
....I know which one I'd choose every time!
The only thing I'd suggest is: 'dumb it down'....I struggled in the beginning as a lot of you guys were so far ahead of me I struggled trying to understand what you were talking about.
Maybe a 'newbie' forum....with 'idiot guides' ?...and that isnt meant in a bad way!!!
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LOL. I thought a little over confident, now I’m thinking delusional ;D ;D ;D
Pictures of your system please Ewan ;)
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Ionic will soon be listing all the reasons why not to do this,mark my words.
Mark my words NWH,
They wont.
The minute they say their system is 'less dangerous' than mine, it will open the floodgates to everyone (including Alex) to set their equipment up against a rival....you cant have one rule for one, and one rule for another. And if memory serves, certain suppliers didnt like comparison tests did they?
Seeing as "certain suppliers" have a massive problem with their products being used in 'like for like' comparisons I doubt very much they'd like to tell me my system is dangerous.
I have issues with *ahem* certain "suppliers" and their safety claims....I would love the opportuntiy to go 'head to head' with them.
I cant wait for a "supplier" to tell me what I am doing is 'wrong' or 'dangerous'
Obviously, they will be able to link with HSE or maybe DoT or maybe VCA or maybe another official body, and if they cant....maybe I'll be able to sue them and claim back the price of my van ;D
If any supplier was to even sugest that their gas, electric, diesel, heat exchanger or LPG system was more more or less dangerous than another, I would be onto Trading Standards and the HSE quicker than you could say - unfounded spurios claims, market manipulation and monopolising market position for their benfit.
Trust me NWH, they DONT want to cross swords with people using gas safely...and they know it ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sorry, just read it again ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Still waiting for those pics - of your system Ewan ;D
And.....still waiting for a response from ANY supplier ;)
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What do you expect them to say David? Put it in perspective.
I expect YOU to post up your pictures...or at the very least, let us know which system you are using Ewan ;)
You dont belong to any "supplier" so I dont expect YOU to post a single word ;)
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Don’t you have any real answer David Slater, what are you going to do if you do talk to professional suppliers of these systems, when you aren’t even able to answer my questions.
There are suppliers on here who have designed carbon wfp’s and had it manufacture by professionals. (Not diy)
Then there are suppliers of (cold) wfp systems (on CIU as well) who decided not to produce there own hot system. (Do you know why?)
Then there’s you. ;D
Still no pictures Ewan? its a simple request is it not?
I'll leave it there my friend.
If anyone else has a question or opinion I'll happily reply. Lets not keep bumping this topic up for no reason....you may get banned ;)
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Im beginning to think things are getting out of hand on here of late;
this was the original post in the thread
Hi what is required, for hot diy set up and how much am i looking at?
Cheers
Gary.
A very simple question, no reference to H&S, legalities and business responsibilities, just a question about the minimum needed to set up a hot DIY system. It wasnt even asked as if the original poster was actually going to install a DIY system, it was just a rhetorical question.
And then.......
.........some seem able to stick to the topic in hand and others just have to be contentious whether they agree or disagree.
Why do you ALWAYS do that to these threads?
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Im beginning to think things are getting out of hand on here of late;
this was the original post in the thread
Hi what is required, for hot diy set up and how much am i looking at?
Cheers
Gary.
A very simple question, no reference to H&S, legalities and business responsibilities, just a question about the minimum needed to set up a hot DIY system. It wasnt even asked as if the original poster was actually going to install a DIY system, it was just a rhetorical question.
And then.......
.........some seem able to stick to the topic in hand and others just have to be contentious whether they agree or disagree.
Why do you ALWAYS do that to these threads?
Lock the thread then Matt.
CIU saw fit to lock my legitmate question to Ewan.
Is this a window cleaning forum or isnt it?
My pictures are up there for all to see. I have posted my H&S qualifications and shown where I gained those qualifications.....yet other posters can say whatever they like without being challenged....and if they are, the topic is locked?
I asked a legitimate question. The topic was locked.
So lock this topic.
Ban me....after all, I only posted up REAL pictures of my system and provided links to the relevant bodies that awarded my qualifications....
Ho hum.... ::)
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Here`s 1 Dave and cheap i think at 3k.
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david
are we sure ewan is a window cleaner, its been questioned many times, he seems unable / unwilling to answer questions and has done for some time
he seems to thrive on troll like behavior, does he want the outcome of all this to be you leaving the forum, so he can then spout his inaccurate and misinformed rubbish ? ? ? ? i have the feeling this is the outcome he would like, or am i giving him too much intelligence ? ? ? ?
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The thing is, I could answer all your questions & put all this to an end BUT, you lot just wouldn't get it!
And don't even bother asking me how I would do this because the very fact that you need to ask the question in the first place shows that you just wouldn't understand! If you do ask me a question however I'll answer it, but don't expect an answer because I just know you wouldn't get it. The only people that would get it are the ones who wouldn't ask anyway, so I wouldn't even ask them to ask in the first place BUT, if these people were to ask, that would let me know that even they wouldn't get it either.
See?
(don't forget the tm ewan ;))
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If I was david i would be pretty down with my van and stuff nicked. An argument just for the sake of can't help.
If it seems at times that i am going on too, then i don't mean too. I would like to see you be far less reasonable and focus on covering your business in this near impossible situation.This is one of those where the forum could help. Maybe others have been in the same fix. How did they cope?
The lads who nicked your van must be local, the coppers know often the district where it might be parked up.
Macmac just read your post. Humour me i'm asking. How should david approach his current fix?
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At the end of the day it`s all down to personal choice and that`s it,regardless of what some might say certain people will do what they will do and that`s up to them of course.If your not DIY minded and some are not the best option is the heater i have or similar,get it fitted turn it on and work simple and easy to use.As far as H&S goes that`s also down to personal choice to a certain extent if you work on your own,sometimes i don`t so i would be running the risk of breaking certain laws.It just didn`t feel right with the L5 setup but like i say that`s my choice.
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If I was david i would be pretty down with my van and stuff nicked. An argument just for the sake of can't help.
If it seems at times that i am going on too, then i don't mean too. I would like to see you be far less reasonable and focus on covering your business in this near impossible situation.This is one of those where the forum could help. Maybe others have been in the same fix. How did they cope?
The lads who nicked your van must be local, the coppers know often the district where it might be parked up.
Macmac just read your post. Humour me i'm asking. How should david approach his current fix?
If you understand Ewan, my above post gives you all the answers you will ever need! ;)
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david
are we sure ewan is a window cleaner, its been questioned many times, he seems unable / unwilling to answer questions and has done for some time
he seems to thrive on troll like behavior, does he want the outcome of all this to be you leaving the forum, so he can then spout his inaccurate and misinformed rubbish ? ? ? ? i have the feeling this is the outcome he would like, or am i giving him too much intelligence ? ? ? ?
Put your money where your mouth is matt, I will prove I’m a window cleaner to everyone here, so how much have you got?
Anybody else is welcome to join in on this bet, but you have got to pay big other wise you get of easy for your idiotic comments. Fair?
I will match all your money combined; I think that is only fair as well.
you seem unable to tell david what system you use ? ? ? ? how do we know you can prove your a window cleaner
for the record, personally i dont care if your a window cleaner or on the NASA space program ( i really dont ) but as you keep on dodging the questions and more and more people question if your a window cleaner, the more it looks like your just a guy who is just on the wind up
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Can`t he post a picture of his setup then.
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Can`t he post a picture of his setup then.
it seems not, afterall david has been asking for best part of 1 month
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In business terms NWH i can't fault what you've done. Every investment i've made has paid off.
It's true i would feel less confident letting an employee use my equipment.
My recent water production upgrade has been briliaint and will continue to make my life simpler, but this wasn't really a decision, more something i stumbled into. Now i've got it i realise how much i needed it.
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Can`t he post a picture of his setup then.
He could, but the very fact you are asking him to do this shows that you wouldn't be able to see it anyway! It would be there for all to see, in all it's glory, BUT, we would only see a blank screen!
See?
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That made me LMAO lol. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :-*
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Can`t he post a picture of his setup then.
He could, but the very fact you are asking him to do this shows that you wouldn't be able to see it anyway! It would be there for all to see, in all it's glory, BUT, we would only see a blank screen!
See?
i also feel we wouldnt be able to understand it
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Can`t he post a picture of his setup then.
He could, but the very fact you are asking him to do this shows that you wouldn't be able to see it anyway! It would be there for all to see, in all it's glory, BUT, we would only see a blank screen!
See?
i also feel we wouldnt be able to understand it
You're a definate blank screener mate! ;D
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This is Ewans system if anyones interested ;D ;D
i am not sure red is his colour, more of a baby blue type of guy i think :o :o :o
now i am off to wash my eyes
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;D
Classic ;D ;D ;D ;D
Wife's just walked in & caught me looking at that picture, PLEASE tell me how Im gonna get out of this one? :-[ :-[ :-[
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And he knocks DIY ;D ;D
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;D
Classic ;D ;D ;D ;D
Wife's just walked in & caught me looking at that picture, PLEASE tell me how Im gonna get out of this one? :-[ :-[ :-[
tell her your looking at underwear to buy her for valentines day ;)
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Hope you enjoyed that guys;D
he certainly did ;D ;D
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And he knocks DIY ;D ;D
Matt@Oakley,
This topic is going nowhere...would you agree?
LOCK IT.
It has served its purpose. It has nothing further to add to the debate.
Nobody (other than those posters who have already posted their credentials) has anything further to add.
We are now getting into the realms of the trolls.
The post will now disintergarte into the realms of fantasy and b&&sh&t....
Is that what CIU wants?
Ask for bone fides or lock it.
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Locked