[Nathanael Jones]

You’re just a little over confident about what you have achieved with your hot system.

If your system is that good bring it to market, that’s the only way you will convince the majority. You’re convinced yourself and a few on here that’s it.

I don't think it was ever an objective of David's or anyone else's to develop a heater for sale to the public. If you put an L5 next to a varitech hot box and asked me which is better then I'd happily answer the Varitech one. The question isn't "which is best", but "what is achievable" and how to achieve that end safely. I think the vast majority of window cleaners on here (myself included) cannot afford a brand name hot setup, and DIY is the only affordable alternative.

I for one couldn't spare the funds for a Varitech heater, so I went DIY, and David's input has been a huge help in making my setup as safe as it can be.
I really don't see what your problem is Ewan,.. your arguments are circular, you refuse to acknowledge the facts presented, and you seem to have an agenda that is slightly different from the majority here. I honestly can't work out your angle,...

[Clive McDonald]

From what i could see it was completely enclosed, all of the controls including the digital varistream and heat controls were flush with wall of the system. Which in turn was accessed by the side door.

It had many interesting design features/advances over existing so called professional systems. Expect a few of the ideas to turn up in the big brand names new 2010 range.

We admire it because it's good ewan.

Furthermore, although there are some issues with gas, the cleanliness and efficiency means that logic will dictate that the biggest name of all will be forced to go this route eventually. We just got there a bit before they did.

[macmac]

Quote: macmac
“Stupidly, some people think higher investment = higher return!”

Some may think that way macmac, but you have to invest, and the level of investment is not about the person, it’s about the industry you are in and at what level. 

It's macmac(tm) to you, thankyou!

[David Slater]

You’re just a little over confident about what you have achieved with your hot system.

If your system is that good bring it to market, that’s the only way you will convince the majority. You’re convinced yourself and a few on here that’s it.

I don't think it was ever an objective of David's or anyone else's to develop a heater for sale to the public. If you put an L5 next to a varitech hot box and asked me which is better then I'd happily answer the Varitech one. The question isn't "which is best", but "what is achievable" and how to achieve that end safely. I think the vast majority of window cleaners on here (myself included) cannot afford a brand name hot setup, and DIY is the only affordable alternative.

I for one couldn't spare the funds for a Varitech heater, so I went DIY, and David's input has been a huge help in making my setup as safe as it can be.
I really don't see what your problem is Ewan,.. your arguments are circular, you refuse to acknowledge the facts presented, and you seem to have an agenda that is slightly different from the majority here. I honestly can't work out your angle,...

Spot on Nat!!

I have no intention of bringing a product to market. I'll happily help and and discuss what my dad and I did to get to my end results.

The whole point of DIY is you dont NEED to buy a system. With a little bit of thought (and lots of help from your peers) its more than possible to do your own system.

The underecurrent of this topic seems to be that 'diesel is safe' and 'gas is dangerous' - this is quite patently rubbish for the reasons I have highlighted countless times throughout this thread.

I could just as easily created a HOT system using diesel, petrol, electric or heat transfer - as Nat is aware, I asked a million questions on 'the other forum' about each and every option.....none seemed to have a distinct advantage over the other.

Maybe we wouldnt be having this epic discussion if I'd chosen diesel??

[David Slater]

From what i could see it was completely enclosed, all of the controls including the digital varistream and heat controls were flush with wall of the system. Which in turn was accessed by the side door.

It had many interesting design features/advances over existing so called professional systems. Expect a few of the ideas to turn up in the big brand names new 2010 range.

We admire it because it's good ewan.

Furthermore, although there are some issues with gas, the cleanliness and efficiency means that logic will dictate that the biggest name of all will be forced to go this route eventually. We just got there a bit before they did.

This to me was more important than the fuel source used to create hot water.

You are correct DWC,
All systems and operations were (where possible) accessed via the side door. And that area was designed so it could not be used for entering/exiting the vehicle. This was a very specific and carefully thought out design feature.

I even posted up questions about how often people used their side doors before going down this route - if I block it off, am I going to create another problem?

It had its own fuse board - shockingly, a lot of equipment is supplied to us without in-line fuses!!....so dont for one moment think my concerns just revolve around "system suppliers"....its equipment suppliers as well.

The only part of the system we couldnt work into the side door was the DI vessels (they're the BIG ones!).....but if I dont get my van back, my dad has already said he's going to look again at this and see if we can alter some things.

ERGONOMICS is so key to H&S, I'm surprised more "suppliers" havent looked into it or thought about the long term repercussions!



   

[matt]

I thought so, nice shed/ office. I'm a big shed man fan.

I see you have lined it out with plaster board etc. If you ever finish the project put some pics up. Matt likes 40 yr old camper vans but has a shed aversion. A shed, a good one, is a fine addition to any house ands value to a similar degree to an extra bedroom. Sheds cost about £1400, so there is an obvious benefit over an extension or a conservatory.

  i love sheds, infact i am currently finding / project managing a build of a Home Office ( and part time guest room ) shed, the guy is after a high spec'ed home office, it needs a toilet aswell, plasterboard / dry lined inside for use all year round

i only made a joke about pics of desks with the PC and a roll of toilet paper ( think about it ) its a bit of a online standing joke on the tech forums i frequent 

[matt]

I have no intention of bringing a product to market. I'll happily help and and discuss what my dad and I did to get to my end results.

The whole point of DIY is you dont NEED to buy a system. With a little bit of thought (and lots of help from your peers) its more than possible to do your own system.

we have been having this discussion for years, when i started to push the DIY route ( with help from Jeff B and funny enough Philip hanson ) it was exactly the same, i guess it will continue aswell, as some will never understand, im not even sure they try, closed minds and all that

Maybe we wouldnt be having this epic discussion if I'd chosen diesel??

oh you would have, its not about the fuel type, its just because you had the knowledge / skill to build your own, as above, closed minds will never accept it

[David Slater]

Ionic will soon be listing all the reasons why not to do this,mark my words.

Mark my words NWH,

They wont.

The minute they say their system is 'less dangerous' than mine, it will open the floodgates to everyone (including Alex) to set their equipment up against a rival....you cant have one rule for one, and one rule for another. And if memory serves, certain suppliers didnt like comparison tests did they?

Seeing as "certain suppliers" have a massive problem with their products being used in 'like for like' comparisons I doubt very much they'd like to tell me my system is dangerous.

I have issues with *ahem* certain "suppliers" and their safety claims....I would love the opportuntiy to go 'head to head' with them.

I cant wait for a "supplier" to tell me what I am doing is 'wrong' or 'dangerous'

Obviously, they will be able to link with HSE or maybe DoT or maybe VCA or maybe another official body, and if they cant....maybe I'll be able to sue them and claim back the price of my van  

If any supplier was to even sugest that their gas, electric, diesel, heat exchanger or LPG system was more more or less dangerous than another, I would be onto Trading Standards and the HSE quicker than you could say - unfounded spurios claims, market manipulation and monopolising market position for their benfit.


Trust me NWH, they DONT want to cross swords with people using gas safely...and they know it  

[David Slater]

I have no intention of bringing a product to market. I'll happily help and and discuss what my dad and I did to get to my end results.

The whole point of DIY is you dont NEED to buy a system. With a little bit of thought (and lots of help from your peers) its more than possible to do your own system.

we have been having this discussion for years, when i started to push the DIY route ( with help from Jeff B and funny enough Philip hanson ) it was exactly the same, i guess it will continue aswell, as some will never understand, im not even sure they try, closed minds and all that

Maybe we wouldnt be having this epic discussion if I'd chosen diesel??

oh you would have, its not about the fuel type, its just because you had the knowledge / skill to build your own, as above, closed minds will never accept it

Matt,

You were the guy that started me into this whole DIY thing  

I found your site by accident, then I wandered off onto another site.....I feel really bad for not contributing more. But you guys were already so knowledgeable, I just sat back and read the topics and learnt loads!

I built my Harris Pole from your guide  

My question is - why arent more guys seeking out the knowledge that you have offered up for free??....its madness!

Pay for it? -  Get it free?

....I know which one I'd choose every time!


The only thing I'd suggest is:  'dumb it down'....I struggled in the beginning as a lot of you guys were so far ahead of me I struggled trying to understand what you were talking about.

Maybe a 'newbie' forum....with 'idiot guides' ?...and that isnt meant in a bad way!!!

[David Slater]

LOL. I thought a little over confident, now I’m thinking delusional 

Pictures of your system please Ewan   

[David Slater]

Ionic will soon be listing all the reasons why not to do this,mark my words.

Mark my words NWH,

They wont.

The minute they say their system is 'less dangerous' than mine, it will open the floodgates to everyone (including Alex) to set their equipment up against a rival....you cant have one rule for one, and one rule for another. And if memory serves, certain suppliers didnt like comparison tests did they?

Seeing as "certain suppliers" have a massive problem with their products being used in 'like for like' comparisons I doubt very much they'd like to tell me my system is dangerous.

I have issues with *ahem* certain "suppliers" and their safety claims....I would love the opportuntiy to go 'head to head' with them.

I cant wait for a "supplier" to tell me what I am doing is 'wrong' or 'dangerous'

Obviously, they will be able to link with HSE or maybe DoT or maybe VCA or maybe another official body, and if they cant....maybe I'll be able to sue them and claim back the price of my van  

If any supplier was to even sugest that their gas, electric, diesel, heat exchanger or LPG system was more more or less dangerous than another, I would be onto Trading Standards and the HSE quicker than you could say - unfounded spurios claims, market manipulation and monopolising market position for their benfit.


Trust me NWH, they DONT want to cross swords with people using gas safely...and they know it  

  Sorry, just read it again 

Still waiting for those pics - of your system Ewan 


And.....still waiting for a response from ANY supplier 

[David Slater]

What do you expect them to say David? Put it in perspective.

I expect YOU to post up your pictures...or at the very least, let us know which system you are using Ewan 




You dont belong to any "supplier" so I dont expect YOU to post a single word 

[David Slater]

Don’t you have any real answer David Slater, what are you going to do if you do talk to professional suppliers of these systems, when you aren’t even able to answer my questions.

There are suppliers on here who have designed carbon wfp’s and had it manufacture by professionals. (Not diy)

Then there are suppliers of (cold) wfp systems (on CIU as well) who decided not to produce there own hot system. (Do you know why?)

Then there’s you.   

Still no pictures Ewan? its a simple request is it not?

I'll leave it there my friend.



If anyone else has a question or opinion I'll happily reply. Lets not keep bumping this topic up for no reason....you may get banned 

[Oakley Windows]

Im beginning to think things are getting out of hand on here of late;

this was the original post in the thread

Hi what is required, for hot diy set up and how much am i looking at?

Cheers

Gary.

A very simple question, no reference to H&S, legalities and business responsibilities, just a question about the minimum needed to set up a hot DIY system. It wasnt even asked  as if the original poster was actually going to install a DIY system, it was just a rhetorical question.

And then.......

.........some seem able to stick to the topic in hand and others just have to be contentious whether they agree or disagree.

Why do you ALWAYS do that to these threads?

[David Slater]

Im beginning to think things are getting out of hand on here of late;

this was the original post in the thread

Hi what is required, for hot diy set up and how much am i looking at?

Cheers

Gary.

A very simple question, no reference to H&S, legalities and business responsibilities, just a question about the minimum needed to set up a hot DIY system. It wasnt even asked  as if the original poster was actually going to install a DIY system, it was just a rhetorical question.

And then.......

.........some seem able to stick to the topic in hand and others just have to be contentious whether they agree or disagree.

Why do you ALWAYS do that to these threads?

Lock the thread then Matt.

CIU saw fit to lock my legitmate question to Ewan.

Is this a window cleaning forum or isnt it?

My pictures are up there for all to see. I have posted my H&S qualifications and shown where I gained those qualifications.....yet other posters can say whatever they like without being challenged....and if they are, the topic is locked?

I asked a legitimate question. The topic was locked.

So lock this topic.

Ban me....after all, I only posted up REAL pictures of my system and provided links to the relevant bodies that awarded my qualifications....



Ho hum....  :

 

[NWH]

Here`s 1 Dave and cheap i think at 3k.

[matt]

david

are we sure ewan is a window cleaner, its been questioned many times, he seems unable / unwilling to answer questions and has done for some time

he seems to thrive on troll like behavior, does he want the outcome of all this to be you leaving the forum, so he can then spout his inaccurate and misinformed rubbish ? ? ? ?  i have the feeling this is the outcome he would like, or am i giving him too much intelligence  ? ? ? ?

[macmac]

The thing is, I could answer all your questions & put all this to an end BUT, you lot just wouldn't get it!
And don't even bother asking me how I would do this because the very fact that you need to ask the question in the first place shows that you just wouldn't understand! If you do ask me a question however I'll answer it, but don't expect an answer because I just know you wouldn't get it. The only people that would get it are the ones who wouldn't ask anyway, so I wouldn't even ask them to ask in the first place BUT, if these people were to ask, that would let me know that even they wouldn't get it either.

See?

(don't forget the tm ewan )

[Clive McDonald]

If I was david i would be pretty down with my van and stuff nicked. An argument just for the sake of can't help.

If it seems at times that i am going on too, then i don't mean too. I would like to see you be far less reasonable and focus on covering your business in this near impossible situation.This is one of those where the forum could help. Maybe others have been in the same fix. How did they cope?

The lads who nicked your van must be local, the coppers know often the district where it might be parked up.

Macmac just read your post. Humour me i'm asking. How should david approach his current fix?

[NWH]

At the end of the day it`s all down to personal choice and that`s it,regardless of what some might say certain people will do what they will do and that`s up to them of course.If your not DIY minded and some are not the best option is the heater i have or similar,get it fitted turn it on and work simple and easy to use.As far as H&S goes that`s also down to personal choice to a certain extent if you work on your own,sometimes i don`t so i would be running the risk of breaking certain laws.It just didn`t feel right with the L5 setup but like i say that`s my choice.