[Steve Mac]

 Can anyone out there explain exactly what this new regulation means to us ladder weilding window cleaners? If i don't splash out (no pun intended) on a WFP system, will i get nicked for dangerous cleaning?  Any help would be much appreciated.

[poleman]

Hi steve,

Thats very much a loaded Q?

however in the coming weeks/months we will find out as it will be Law.

Did do a post on this   

If you are think of getting a WFP then it was the best business move I made, allso have a look at the HSE vidoe clip, good luck which ever way you work

Andy 

[poleman]

HSE Video
http://www.hse.gov.uk/campaigns/worksmart2/videos/wah9.wmv

[Jeff Brimble]

In  "Cleaning Matters" Andrew Lee Fed Safety Officer says "The HSE is not banning the use of portable ladders " and argues the case "That when the work at height regs come in you are going to have to use ladder stability devices or tie or lash every ladder." Even a pointer because thats work at height. But then goes on to argue that because the point is trapped by the window reveal, the ladder can be deemed secure, sufficient to tying or lashing.
He also argues that risk assesment could  justify their use on domestic and commercial accounts after conducting a risk assesment.You should NOW be securing portable ladders extended over 6 metres by tying or lashing.
"What the work at height regs say is ; If you dont have to work at height then dont " ie wfp/cherry picker.
Controversially he says that w/cers cleaning domestic houses will be hard pushed to use a wfp with the same result as "hands on " cleaning using portable ladders for access. I disagree

[mark f]

The reason why i searched out this forum and joined today is because i am very concerned about all of this legislation that is being talked about.
  I am mainly a domestic window cleaner and have been for 17 yrs with no major mishaps and work alone.

  Looking through the threads i cant tell if this in force now or soon to be.

  The crazy thing i cant understand is that in the time it takes to go up the ladder and lash it  5 windows could be cleaned!

 I understand common sense precautions i.e making sure the feet of the ladder cant slip, but this seems a bit much to me.

 Commercial work with companies with h/s regs to comply with is one thing but domestic window cleaners could have to double thier prices over this.

[Ian_Giles]

I doubt very much if the domestic window cleaner will feel the effect to much from the so called reinforced regs.
It will come of course, and lack of compliance will almost certainly negate your insurance in the case of claims.
On building sites and factory sites, and many other commercial sites, health and safety regs can be stringently enforced, by the time it gets to the domestic market it is much diluted.
But I believe as time passes it will gradually become more difficult for any trade to use a ladder other than for access.

If you haven't got a Water Fed System, get one!!! It is without a shadow of a doubt the best thing I have ever done, your life will be easier, safer and your work more profitable.

After 20 years of climbing a ladder to clean windows I'd had a stomach full of it, I am as keen now as I was 20 years ago! In 8 months I have climbed a ladder on only about 4 occasions

Ian

[mark f]

are you a commercial window cleaner mainly though? I couldnt imagine that in a road where i do several houses that moving a van with a wfp to each house where such access may be difficult could be any quicker.
  I can certainly see the benifit of such systems in the commercial market but without increasing the charge would such a system be more profitable in the domestic market??

  I have in mind one village i visit which is a tourist attraction where i clean some properties on the high street with no risk to the pedestrians by keeping the ladder off the path. Not only is parking a nightmare but i couldnt trail water pipes across the path whilst water floods down the building and across the path. That to me seems like more of an h/s nightmare to me than me being up a ladder!!

  If in a run of fair sized house i can do 4-5 an hour with my ladder i couldnt imagine it physically possible to move the van to each one and clean them in the same time with a wfp. So the price would go up vastly and someone else who doesnt give a monkeys about safety would come and clean them for less.

[martin19842]

the hse has brought in this further consultation regarding the two metre rule as a result of the construction industry, highlighting that the proposed WAHR did not cover this topic.

it appears the the WAHR is edging towards

three point holding, therefore one hand have secure attachment whilst on a ladder.

the other area which is interesting is that short time tasks from ladders, seem to be in an area which will be allowed.

another point being that ladders may be considered a safe form of access if a relevant risk assessment has been completed showing that other form of access is unpractical.

there also seems to be a phrase 'REASONABLY PRACTICABLE'  obviously it is not reasonanbly practicable to erect a tower or use a cherry picker to clean the windows on a 1st floor level.

the final legislation could be very interesting.

we are on building sites, utilising ladders on ground and 1st floor, and if the legisaltion is anything like the draft regs, then all should be ok.

regards

martin

[Ian_Giles]

Mark,

4 or 5 an hour That is going some.

With WFP I am doing domestics roughly 20% faster, though I would not be able to do 5 an hour, to be honest I don't have accounts so close together that I could achieve that, and over the past 20 years I would say that I have only been in that position very rarely, I certainly have not been in a position where that could be done day in, day out all day long, and I doubt anyone does.
It only takes as long as it would take to walk around the house to retrieve your hose, if the houses are one after the other then you would use a trolley and you would move from house to house as quickly as you would carrying ladders and a bucket.

If the houses are spaced out, 3 or 4 in this street, another down the road, some more in the next cul-de-sac and so on, then the balance shifts more and more in favour of WFP.
The majority of my work if commercial, and not all of it is done with WFP, I use whichever works best, and that is rarely traditional.

You will read few posts from windows cleaners that have made the transition to WFP, going back to their old way of cleaning!

Back to the original thread!

Interpretation of the regulations will be, as it is now, more or less down to the individual safety officers, and you won't find them trawling around the street looking for transgressors!
And if caught in a flagrent breach of said regs, you may get berated and told if caught again you will be shot at dawn.

I think domestic window cleaners have little to worry about at present, though as the years pass it will certainly get tougher.

Cherry pickers and scafolding may not be approbriate for cleaning an upstairs window, but WFP is
So safety officers will certainly be able to counter any arguements that there is no viable alternative to working off a ladder, because for the window cleaner there most certainly is one.

Stay one step ahead or get left behind

Ian

[mark f]

thanks very much for your help guys.

 Ian,
     Do you find that your domestic customers (who are looking for a good job to be done) are as happy with your work now you are using a wfp?

   I cant get my head round the idea that looking up at a window from the ground i could see all that is on the glass. Plus i cant see that brushing over it from a distance would do as good a job as hands on especially if a scraper is needed.

  Also i do a lot of work in a historic area where lots of the houses are georgian or leaded with nooks and crannies.
 Are they effective on these kind of windows??

  What do your domestic customers feel about water flooding down the house?

 Lots of questions i know but if i make a change i would rather hear from you guys who are mostly impartial and who know much more about these gadgets than me, than a salesman with £ signs infront of his eyes!!

 Yeh i know 4-5 houses sounds good but im still young (32) and fit and work like a trojan! But im always open to an easier life but not at the expense of a good job or my customers satisfaction whatever the hse have to say!!

[UBA1]

thanks very much for your help guys.

 Ian,
     Do you find that your domestic customers (who are looking for a good job to be done) are as happy with your work now you are using a wfp?

   I cant get my head round the idea that looking up at a window from the ground i could see all that is on the glass. Plus i cant see that brushing over it from a distance would do as good a job as hands on especially if a scraper is needed.

  Also i do a lot of work in a historic area where lots of the houses are georgian or leaded with nooks and crannies.
 Are they effective on these kind of windows??

  What do your domestic customers feel about water flooding down the house?

 Lots of questions i know but if i make a change i would rather hear from you guys who are mostly impartial and who know much more about these gadgets than me, than a salesman with £ signs infront of his eyes!!

 Yeh i know 4-5 houses sounds good but im still young (32) and fit and work like a trojan! But im always open to an easier life but not at the expense of a good job or my customers satisfaction whatever the hse have to say!!

Interesting points....I bang out an average of 4-6 semis an hour at about £7/8 each. WFP? Can it compete? very interesting points from above.

[Rob_B]

http://www.window-tools.com/mav.HTM

Check out the two videos on this link to see how fast wfp can be.

[mark f]

yes that is quite quick but if you had a run of houses moving the van would be a nightmare so a portable system would be needed and that only holds an hours water. Plus after watching that video there is noway it does as good a job as hands on window cleaning. I know of 2 mates who have got jobs from wfp users cos the customers werent happy. Infact the work was shocking. True if it is law then fair enough but in the mean time im not sure still. Im still giving it a lot of thought.

  I had some bad birds muck and cobwebb on some windows today, and there is no way a quick brush over would get that off. I reckon a mixture of the two methods is best depending on the job and customer.

[gaza]

I WATCHED THE VIDEO,FAST YES POOR WORKMANSHIP ?YOU DIDNT RINSE OFF FOR ONE,2 WHAT ABOUT PVC DOUBLE GLAZING,MY EXPERIENCE IS IVE BLOWN A WINDOW BECAUSE THE SEAL HAD GONE{MISTING} HAVE YOU SUFFERED THE SAME,IF SO WHAT WAS THE OUTCOME
itsthingy@msn.com

[NBwcs]

Thought i'd share this with you. Our local rag ran a front page story about a local window cleaner whos just splashed out on a WFP. The article included a nice colour photo and took up approx one quarter of the whole front page( must have been a quiet week). The article was basically telling all and sundrie about the new EU law and how wc,s were no longer allowed to climb ladders.

Quote: "A new EU law means that window cleaners are no longer allowed to climb ladders and instead have to pay thousands of pounds for hi-tech equipment, while their feet are kept firmly on the ground" The rest of the article was basically a out and out advert for this bloke. I contacted the paper to find they had already been approached by other wc's and they will be issuing a correction in this weeks paper. The local reporter had been on the HSE website and put 1+1 together and made 10! But it just goes to show how much confusion there still is. The incredible thing about this is the reaction from some of the public. The reporter told me that people had actually contacted the POLICE, to say they had seen a window cleaner going up a ladder!!!!Yes the Old Bill who incidently wernt impressed, "enough to do etc without this". Youve got to laugh really. For anyone who hasnt seen it yet, there is a very good one page article on the Fed's website (you dont have to be a member to view it) which explains things very well, well worth looking at.    Cheers Nick

[NBwcs]

Sorry,heres the address,www.nfmwgc.com/documents/WORKATTHEIGHT.doc,   Cheers Nick

[Duke]

ok...true it's not the law yet....but to be honest, the more people that  get used to the idea that it will be eventually...the better for us it will be.....that's what I tell new customers as well.....just makes life easier all round....and give them an explanatory flier to go with it. Otherwise you'll get into all kinds of discussions on the pro's and con's with the customer....and time talking is money wasted....

[martin19842]

hi there,

this is a well talked about subject.

i actually had the honour of discussing this with the HSE inspectorate before xmas.  and in their words ' they are not loking to ban the use of ladders'

they are loking to make things safer.

and once you have done the correct risk assessment, you may well find the ladder is the answer.

also bear in mind that the directive will also take into account the length of time the job up the ladder takes, and for short time jobs, ie cleaning a window, then they are net looking to change.

its all going to be a bit of a nightmare, and in truth has been talked about for a few years now.

regards

martin

[Duke]

and no doubt will be for some yet...but it's the right way to go I think...the safer we can make it for us all...the better...and more profitable...it's a business after all...

[Colin_Glenn]

I have to say that I wish this article had been available six months ago when I bought my trolley. I must say that I do now like the WFP system and most of my customers are converted. But I bought it when I did mainly because the new laws really did appear to say that ladders would need to be lashed. Nothing was mentioned about stability devices. (Then again those devices will probably prove to be expensive and a pain when they have to be carried over fences etc. Perhaps two will be needed one for grass and one for hard surfaces, what about wooden decking?)
As a result I spent a shed-load of money on a trolley system that I couldn't really afford. We didn't have a whole lot of savings in the first place, but when 19th July was bandied about like it was the end of the world I felt I needed to buy the equipment to stay legal. That said, I do now like the system, although I am waiting for the summer to start as I am worried if there will be problems with water marks when the bright sunshine starts.
Slowly customers will begin to find out that WFP isn't as essential as I honestly believed when I made the move. What happens then when Window Cleaners with ladders start moving in and doing better work because of thier "Hands on" work?

Its food for thought.......

Colin

[Ian_Giles]

Colin,
If you have done the job properly you will have at least equalled anything you could have done with trad methods, and providing you have adapted and adjusted the way in which you work, you will be considerably quicker too.

Window cleaners who use ladders will gradually find themselves squeezed out (any trade that uses ladders) You may only be spending a minute or two up the ladder cleaning a window, but you are doing it day in, day out, your job is working off ladders full time, The new regs will most certainly apply to you. Part of the regs say that if there is any other way of doing whatever job it is that needs doing that can avoid the use of a ladder then it must be used.
Ladders are the final option.
With window cleaning you do have an option, WFP or using poles with applicators and squeegees.

It won't really affect those doing domestic houses in the short term, lets face it, how many health and safety inspectors are going to trawl around housing estates looking for window cleaners up a a ladder
But it will come in time.

Ian

[Craig_Mawlam]

It's interesting that since Ionic introduced The Reach & Wash™ System in 1997 approximately 100 window cleaners have lost their lives falling from ladders and 1,000's of others have been injured. During that time ZERO window cleaners have died using waterfed poles.

The WAHD does NOT ban the use of ladders but is does say that you should select the SAFEST system of work! QED you may continue to use ladders if you wish, but if you employ others and they fall from a ladder you can guarantee that the compensation lawyers will use the WAHD to good effect in order to maximise the payout to the bereaved family. Meanwhile the HSE will use the Directive to prosecute you because clearly you failed to select the safest system of work.

Craig Mawlam

[Colin_Glenn]

All fair comments. 

[freshas]

could public liability insurance be classed as void  if ladders
fell on a parked car , maybe they would wriggle out payments
on the ground of a ladder ban

[AuRavelling79]

Or .... even if the use of ladders is a not banned and the insurance company says "Why didn't you use a pole as it would have been safer?" They might argue that one if you maim somebody and they want to wriggle out of a £500,000 payout!

Insurance company not pay out? Never! :

[Colin_Glenn]

Well as Craig said,  "since Ionic introduced The Reach & Wash™ System in 1997 approximately 100 window cleaners have lost their lives falling from ladders and 1,000's of others have been injured. During that time ZERO window cleaners have died using waterfed poles."

I have to admit that when I get home late these days my wife never phones up worrying about me as she used to do when I was up ladders all day. A couple of months ago I got into the house nearly 2 hours late as I was in the Garage fixing a few little things and forgot to say anything to her. When I got in she was fine. In the past she would have been worried sick.

It's worth the money for the peace of mind. Even still, I still think we have to be careful about making statements until we are certain of our facts (Like when 19th July 2004 was supposed to be "Burn your ladders" day.)

Colin

[Ian_Giles]

I don't think my CD re-writer could handle that

Ian

[Roy Harding]

I have been cleaning 20yrs with out miss-hap.  But I have five friends that have fallen badly. 3 of wich smashed their heels, and had to have them rebuilt, ending their window cleaning.   Another landed on his head and was left in a coma for a week and brain damage . And one who broke his legs. . Have you fallen or very close? and how bad?

[CRAIG LIND]

Had a fall 02/02/05, put my ladder up against the house, i got to the top, just started to squeege, felt the ladder slip a little. I thought i should get down and move the ladder, but that was it, the ladder just slipped right out from underneath me, luckily i landed on top of the ladder still on my feet. It shook me up a little but has made me more cautious,( WET ALGIE PATIO)

[CRAIG LIND]

CAN ANYONE TELL ME, WHAT THE NEW GUIDELINES ARE FOR WINDOW CLEANERS USING LADDERS?IS THE LAW IN PLACE? IF SO WHEN DID OR  DOES IT START, AND WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS.?

[Roy Harding]

I Spray with a trigger spray patio cleanner it lasts about 2yrs.

[Roy Harding]

Have a look at this HSE sheet 3 http://www.nfmwgc.com/homepgs/links.htm 

[matt]

this thread is all you need to read to "go down the WFP route"

talk of coma's and brain damage, not for me thanks big man

[Duke]

my 'boss'...lol....last year, ladders, wet decking...slipped, fell on top of ladder...7 stitches in chin...(still went back to work though, after, same day...)....he uses a pole now......odd that....

[karlosdaze]

Funny you should mention the falling. I just had a pair of steps collapse on me, - they just broke at the joints, and brand new as well. I'm off to trading standards to get them withdrawn from the marketplace.

[Tim Downer]

Hi,
 Get the new "Professional Window Cleaner" magazine, first issue came to the office today!!
Page 27 - 31 has a lot of detail and explanations on the Temporary Work at Height Directive....
May have it on their web site: www.professionalwindowcleaner.co.uk ??

Regards

Tim Downer

[Tim Downer]

Also, try: www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

Tim

[martin19842]

tim,

its not on the pwc website, can you do me a favour,

read-it

and then type it onto here,

ONLY JOKING 

have registered on the site and it will be in the post shortly.

i must go and clean out the back of my L200, you cant moan at the staff if your own vehicle is messy, or as i say i'm the boss, so clean mione out as well.

take care

regards


martin

[Ian_Giles]

I've fallen so often I've got really good at it

But seriously, over 30 years of working off ladders I have only had a handful of accidents, almost all very minor, the worst while window cleaning was while cleaning a Kwik Save sign and the ladder (even though set very steep) went from under me. I was lucky, the ladder went straight down and I wasn't leaning to one side, my feet went either side of the ladder, I bruised my heels, and scared the crap out of a baker who was supping a cup of tea while sat on the window sill about 6 ft to the one side
Went down with a hell of a bang, felt a real tit too I grinned sheepishly at the baker whose mouth was wide open, made an apologetic sign to the driver of the vehicle that had swerved to avoid the ladder that had shot out in front of his car, put the ladder back up and carried on working
By the time I had finished the sign I couldn't put any weight on either of my heels, spent the rest of the day mincing around like a teapot on my tippy toes

Had to have the next three days off work, was just to painful to walk But I was really lucky that was all the damage I had.

Another local window cleaner had the same type of accident (you know him Roy, Simon Glendenning)
He was doing a window above a patio when the ladder went from under him, but his foot went between the rungs and he broke his ankle in two places Customer wasn't in either...which was nice

I have had the ladder slip from under me only to 'catch' on the edge of a paving slab, so it only fell about a foot below the window sill. It happens so fast, it isn't until you walk down the ladder that you start to choke on the heart that has shot into your mouth
I had one guy working for me, everytime I called on him to see how he was doing, it seemed he was always prostrate on his back making strange groaning noises he'd slipped of a roof, had the ladder slip on guttering, overstretched himself, and those are only the times I caught him
When I was a decorator I was painting a window in a council depot garage, there was a guy doing the window next to me, his feet were no more than 4ft of the ground. We were using white gloss at the time, I glanced across to him and told him his ladder looked to far out at the bottom, then it went out from under him.
He was a fat lad and as he fell forward his face smashed into the wall beneath the window, when he hit the deck it he landed on all fours, he shattered one kneecap and broke his wrists, and there was blood everywhere where his mouth and nose had smashed into the wall.
Bear in mind he only fell about 4ft, maximum.

Work off ladders again?...............No thank you.

Mind how you go,

Ian

[Mr.G]

i've come off 3 times, now I use a 'ladder mat' if the ground is slippery, the best £12 I've spent.

[windows_chepstow]

Ian_Giles,

I see you're claiming you're 48 on a different thread to this.  If that's true, you ought to see a doctor mate.

As for Simon Glendenning,  he still suffers with his ankles from that fall.

As for myself; my ladders slipped from under me during my first year of window cleaning.  My own extremely stupid mistake - I had them at a dodgy angle - cleaning the window above a porch.  I was too lazy to put them at a better angle ABOVE the window(which would've worked), or to ask Wor Lass to foot them.  They were also an abused domestic set - my first.

Luckily, I'm a Geordie; so was okay - not even a scratch.

I explained to Wor Lass, who was very shocked at seeing me bounce off the ground, that it was my army parachute training that saved me.

She asked why, in that case was I trembling so much!

[rosskesava]

I've never fallen and I want to keep it that way. The day we go over to WFP's (this year I hope) won't be a day to soon.

Having said that, I now only do all the ground floor work as I'm a bit on the short side (5' 8") and have a short reach. All I ever use is a 7' A frame ladder which is a lot more stable.

We have a 20 year old who does all the top of rung stuff and my b*lls come up through my mouth when I sometimes watch him. I used to do that and I'm glad I don't now. It scares me. I'd do it if I had to but I wouldn't like doing it. Maybe I'm getting old.

Early last year we picked up a lot of work in one area because the window cleaner 'just stopped calling'. We found out later that he'd died from a brain tumour which appeared a few months after he'd had a fall from the top of a single section ladder which required an overnight stay in hospital. I don't know if the two are related though but his fall was enough for him to pack up being a w/c (I think) straight away.

[windows_chepstow]

Rosskesavawhatsit,

I'm hoping to take on an employee in the next year or so, so would be interested to know on what terms and conditions of employment do you give to your twenty-year-old?

Does he not get resentfull that he does all the ladder work?  I work with my missis and constantly rib her for refusing to carry a ladder about; although she will climb up it if I put it in place (for example to get over a garage).

[rosskesava]

Hi windows_chepstow

We employed the 20 year old on the basis that that was his job. Being a very small business of 2 full time employees in total (according to the Inland Revenue people or what ever their name is now) we are exempt from employment rules especially as he is employed for under 20 or so weeks a year.

Basically, if he don't like it, tough and good bye but we have an all round agreement as to payment and he is happy with it. He is well paid for his work and we are happy to pay it.

He is self employed ( he has his own window cleaning work when not with us) and works upto or less than 16 hours a week. We use him when needed. Some weeks he is not needed.

He also claims some 'working tax credits' or something but that is his own business. I don't ask to much. All I make sure is we are legitimate.

What ever anyone says, the tax people are very helpfull in this regard and I really recommend asking them about it. They are not the monsters that they are portrayed as being. They gave us excellant information about what was ok and what was not.

Cheers

Ross

[rosskesava]

hi again windows_chepstow

Thanks to you my wife now calls me rosskesavawhatsit.

Sometimes shortened to 'whatsit'.

A big thanks. 

[Duke]

lol......

[rosskesava]

Now my daughters (13, 16, and 18) are calling me 'whatsit'.

windows_chepstow .............................. :

And Duke - it's fine for you to lol. I'm in a house full of women.

[Duke]

I can sympathise with that Ross, I grew up in one...Grandmother, Mother and 3 Sisters......(though it worked out fine in later life...almost understanding the inner workings of a Woman's mind)......

[windows_chepstow]

Sorry Rosskevwatsit,

Tangent time!

Is that a Polish name?  I've known a few poles and they all had names like 'Andropopodovz', or something similar and daft.

They normally get nick-names 'A to Zed' or 'K to Zed' depending on which letter their name starts with.

So where does your name come from?

It's 'hissing down' here, so we're having a sneaky day off.  Phillip Hanson has e-mailed me asking for photos of my Missis for his magazine.  I'm not sure why; I thought he wanted his magazine to be 'professional'.

Having some lady from Pontypool in his mag won't do much for the image.

I've a few rude ones somewhere that I'll e-mail him. 

[matt]

you got to watch Philip, he will be after it for his other mag

didnt he mention he runs a "wife swap - swinging mag" aswell 


for the record

'working tax credits' is paid to people who earn money legit, its a sliding scale, the more you earn the less you can claim, of course it has a top scale where you get nothing

its a idea to help people who want to work and not just sit on the sofa all day claiming dole

in my opinion its a good scheme

[matt]

oh before any1 doesnt spot the joke

Philip doesnt have another mag  :

[windows_chepstow]

Shame about the wife swapping mag being a joke.

I'd love to swap Helen.

Anyone give me an old set of light trade ladders for her - or a few used scrims?