[Steve Mac]

 Can anyone out there explain exactly what this new regulation means to us ladder weilding window cleaners? If i don't splash out (no pun intended) on a WFP system, will i get nicked for dangerous cleaning?  Any help would be much appreciated.

[poleman]

Hi steve,

Thats very much a loaded Q?

however in the coming weeks/months we will find out as it will be Law.

Did do a post on this   

If you are think of getting a WFP then it was the best business move I made, allso have a look at the HSE vidoe clip, good luck which ever way you work

Andy 

[poleman]

HSE Video
http://www.hse.gov.uk/campaigns/worksmart2/videos/wah9.wmv

[Jeff Brimble]

In  "Cleaning Matters" Andrew Lee Fed Safety Officer says "The HSE is not banning the use of portable ladders " and argues the case "That when the work at height regs come in you are going to have to use ladder stability devices or tie or lash every ladder." Even a pointer because thats work at height. But then goes on to argue that because the point is trapped by the window reveal, the ladder can be deemed secure, sufficient to tying or lashing.
He also argues that risk assesment could  justify their use on domestic and commercial accounts after conducting a risk assesment.You should NOW be securing portable ladders extended over 6 metres by tying or lashing.
"What the work at height regs say is ; If you dont have to work at height then dont " ie wfp/cherry picker.
Controversially he says that w/cers cleaning domestic houses will be hard pushed to use a wfp with the same result as "hands on " cleaning using portable ladders for access. I disagree

[mark f]

The reason why i searched out this forum and joined today is because i am very concerned about all of this legislation that is being talked about.
  I am mainly a domestic window cleaner and have been for 17 yrs with no major mishaps and work alone.

  Looking through the threads i cant tell if this in force now or soon to be.

  The crazy thing i cant understand is that in the time it takes to go up the ladder and lash it  5 windows could be cleaned!

 I understand common sense precautions i.e making sure the feet of the ladder cant slip, but this seems a bit much to me.

 Commercial work with companies with h/s regs to comply with is one thing but domestic window cleaners could have to double thier prices over this.

[Ian_Giles]

I doubt very much if the domestic window cleaner will feel the effect to much from the so called reinforced regs.
It will come of course, and lack of compliance will almost certainly negate your insurance in the case of claims.
On building sites and factory sites, and many other commercial sites, health and safety regs can be stringently enforced, by the time it gets to the domestic market it is much diluted.
But I believe as time passes it will gradually become more difficult for any trade to use a ladder other than for access.

If you haven't got a Water Fed System, get one!!! It is without a shadow of a doubt the best thing I have ever done, your life will be easier, safer and your work more profitable.

After 20 years of climbing a ladder to clean windows I'd had a stomach full of it, I am as keen now as I was 20 years ago! In 8 months I have climbed a ladder on only about 4 occasions

Ian

[mark f]

are you a commercial window cleaner mainly though? I couldnt imagine that in a road where i do several houses that moving a van with a wfp to each house where such access may be difficult could be any quicker.
  I can certainly see the benifit of such systems in the commercial market but without increasing the charge would such a system be more profitable in the domestic market??

  I have in mind one village i visit which is a tourist attraction where i clean some properties on the high street with no risk to the pedestrians by keeping the ladder off the path. Not only is parking a nightmare but i couldnt trail water pipes across the path whilst water floods down the building and across the path. That to me seems like more of an h/s nightmare to me than me being up a ladder!!

  If in a run of fair sized house i can do 4-5 an hour with my ladder i couldnt imagine it physically possible to move the van to each one and clean them in the same time with a wfp. So the price would go up vastly and someone else who doesnt give a monkeys about safety would come and clean them for less.

[martin19842]

the hse has brought in this further consultation regarding the two metre rule as a result of the construction industry, highlighting that the proposed WAHR did not cover this topic.

it appears the the WAHR is edging towards

three point holding, therefore one hand have secure attachment whilst on a ladder.

the other area which is interesting is that short time tasks from ladders, seem to be in an area which will be allowed.

another point being that ladders may be considered a safe form of access if a relevant risk assessment has been completed showing that other form of access is unpractical.

there also seems to be a phrase 'REASONABLY PRACTICABLE'  obviously it is not reasonanbly practicable to erect a tower or use a cherry picker to clean the windows on a 1st floor level.

the final legislation could be very interesting.

we are on building sites, utilising ladders on ground and 1st floor, and if the legisaltion is anything like the draft regs, then all should be ok.

regards

martin

[Ian_Giles]

Mark,

4 or 5 an hour That is going some.

With WFP I am doing domestics roughly 20% faster, though I would not be able to do 5 an hour, to be honest I don't have accounts so close together that I could achieve that, and over the past 20 years I would say that I have only been in that position very rarely, I certainly have not been in a position where that could be done day in, day out all day long, and I doubt anyone does.
It only takes as long as it would take to walk around the house to retrieve your hose, if the houses are one after the other then you would use a trolley and you would move from house to house as quickly as you would carrying ladders and a bucket.

If the houses are spaced out, 3 or 4 in this street, another down the road, some more in the next cul-de-sac and so on, then the balance shifts more and more in favour of WFP.
The majority of my work if commercial, and not all of it is done with WFP, I use whichever works best, and that is rarely traditional.

You will read few posts from windows cleaners that have made the transition to WFP, going back to their old way of cleaning!

Back to the original thread!

Interpretation of the regulations will be, as it is now, more or less down to the individual safety officers, and you won't find them trawling around the street looking for transgressors!
And if caught in a flagrent breach of said regs, you may get berated and told if caught again you will be shot at dawn.

I think domestic window cleaners have little to worry about at present, though as the years pass it will certainly get tougher.

Cherry pickers and scafolding may not be approbriate for cleaning an upstairs window, but WFP is
So safety officers will certainly be able to counter any arguements that there is no viable alternative to working off a ladder, because for the window cleaner there most certainly is one.

Stay one step ahead or get left behind

Ian

[mark f]

thanks very much for your help guys.

 Ian,
     Do you find that your domestic customers (who are looking for a good job to be done) are as happy with your work now you are using a wfp?

   I cant get my head round the idea that looking up at a window from the ground i could see all that is on the glass. Plus i cant see that brushing over it from a distance would do as good a job as hands on especially if a scraper is needed.

  Also i do a lot of work in a historic area where lots of the houses are georgian or leaded with nooks and crannies.
 Are they effective on these kind of windows??

  What do your domestic customers feel about water flooding down the house?

 Lots of questions i know but if i make a change i would rather hear from you guys who are mostly impartial and who know much more about these gadgets than me, than a salesman with £ signs infront of his eyes!!

 Yeh i know 4-5 houses sounds good but im still young (32) and fit and work like a trojan! But im always open to an easier life but not at the expense of a good job or my customers satisfaction whatever the hse have to say!!

[UBA1]

thanks very much for your help guys.

 Ian,
     Do you find that your domestic customers (who are looking for a good job to be done) are as happy with your work now you are using a wfp?

   I cant get my head round the idea that looking up at a window from the ground i could see all that is on the glass. Plus i cant see that brushing over it from a distance would do as good a job as hands on especially if a scraper is needed.

  Also i do a lot of work in a historic area where lots of the houses are georgian or leaded with nooks and crannies.
 Are they effective on these kind of windows??

  What do your domestic customers feel about water flooding down the house?

 Lots of questions i know but if i make a change i would rather hear from you guys who are mostly impartial and who know much more about these gadgets than me, than a salesman with £ signs infront of his eyes!!

 Yeh i know 4-5 houses sounds good but im still young (32) and fit and work like a trojan! But im always open to an easier life but not at the expense of a good job or my customers satisfaction whatever the hse have to say!!

Interesting points....I bang out an average of 4-6 semis an hour at about £7/8 each. WFP? Can it compete? very interesting points from above.

[Rob_B]

http://www.window-tools.com/mav.HTM

Check out the two videos on this link to see how fast wfp can be.

[mark f]

yes that is quite quick but if you had a run of houses moving the van would be a nightmare so a portable system would be needed and that only holds an hours water. Plus after watching that video there is noway it does as good a job as hands on window cleaning. I know of 2 mates who have got jobs from wfp users cos the customers werent happy. Infact the work was shocking. True if it is law then fair enough but in the mean time im not sure still. Im still giving it a lot of thought.

  I had some bad birds muck and cobwebb on some windows today, and there is no way a quick brush over would get that off. I reckon a mixture of the two methods is best depending on the job and customer.

[gaza]

I WATCHED THE VIDEO,FAST YES POOR WORKMANSHIP ?YOU DIDNT RINSE OFF FOR ONE,2 WHAT ABOUT PVC DOUBLE GLAZING,MY EXPERIENCE IS IVE BLOWN A WINDOW BECAUSE THE SEAL HAD GONE{MISTING} HAVE YOU SUFFERED THE SAME,IF SO WHAT WAS THE OUTCOME
itsthingy@msn.com

[NBwcs]

Thought i'd share this with you. Our local rag ran a front page story about a local window cleaner whos just splashed out on a WFP. The article included a nice colour photo and took up approx one quarter of the whole front page( must have been a quiet week). The article was basically telling all and sundrie about the new EU law and how wc,s were no longer allowed to climb ladders.

Quote: "A new EU law means that window cleaners are no longer allowed to climb ladders and instead have to pay thousands of pounds for hi-tech equipment, while their feet are kept firmly on the ground" The rest of the article was basically a out and out advert for this bloke. I contacted the paper to find they had already been approached by other wc's and they will be issuing a correction in this weeks paper. The local reporter had been on the HSE website and put 1+1 together and made 10! But it just goes to show how much confusion there still is. The incredible thing about this is the reaction from some of the public. The reporter told me that people had actually contacted the POLICE, to say they had seen a window cleaner going up a ladder!!!!Yes the Old Bill who incidently wernt impressed, "enough to do etc without this". Youve got to laugh really. For anyone who hasnt seen it yet, there is a very good one page article on the Fed's website (you dont have to be a member to view it) which explains things very well, well worth looking at.    Cheers Nick

[NBwcs]

Sorry,heres the address,www.nfmwgc.com/documents/WORKATTHEIGHT.doc,   Cheers Nick

[Duke]

ok...true it's not the law yet....but to be honest, the more people that  get used to the idea that it will be eventually...the better for us it will be.....that's what I tell new customers as well.....just makes life easier all round....and give them an explanatory flier to go with it. Otherwise you'll get into all kinds of discussions on the pro's and con's with the customer....and time talking is money wasted....

[martin19842]

hi there,

this is a well talked about subject.

i actually had the honour of discussing this with the HSE inspectorate before xmas.  and in their words ' they are not loking to ban the use of ladders'

they are loking to make things safer.

and once you have done the correct risk assessment, you may well find the ladder is the answer.

also bear in mind that the directive will also take into account the length of time the job up the ladder takes, and for short time jobs, ie cleaning a window, then they are net looking to change.

its all going to be a bit of a nightmare, and in truth has been talked about for a few years now.

regards

martin

[Duke]

and no doubt will be for some yet...but it's the right way to go I think...the safer we can make it for us all...the better...and more profitable...it's a business after all...

[Colin_Glenn]

I have to say that I wish this article had been available six months ago when I bought my trolley. I must say that I do now like the WFP system and most of my customers are converted. But I bought it when I did mainly because the new laws really did appear to say that ladders would need to be lashed. Nothing was mentioned about stability devices. (Then again those devices will probably prove to be expensive and a pain when they have to be carried over fences etc. Perhaps two will be needed one for grass and one for hard surfaces, what about wooden decking?)
As a result I spent a shed-load of money on a trolley system that I couldn't really afford. We didn't have a whole lot of savings in the first place, but when 19th July was bandied about like it was the end of the world I felt I needed to buy the equipment to stay legal. That said, I do now like the system, although I am waiting for the summer to start as I am worried if there will be problems with water marks when the bright sunshine starts.
Slowly customers will begin to find out that WFP isn't as essential as I honestly believed when I made the move. What happens then when Window Cleaners with ladders start moving in and doing better work because of thier "Hands on" work?

Its food for thought.......

Colin